Joe, This quote doesn't bother me as it does you. I read Suzuki's 'see' as already perceiving. If you're 'seeing' something you're already intellectualizing it. You've already created pluarlity - a seer and a seen.. If you are just experiencing (Buddha Nature) there is no 'see' and of course no intellectualizing - Just THIS!
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Yes, Bill! > > quoting: > "As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As > soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw." > > Now, what about when that's not so? > > The out-of-context line is too glaringly black and white. > > What about when you see something, and do not intellectualize? > > The Roshi says (incorrectly, because "not always so"), "...you already > start...". What about if you don't? When you don't. Start. > > The quote uses too, too broad a brush. As you know! > > What you call 'perceptions' or 'delusions', to match the Roshi's > "intellectualizations", my Chan teacher called "Vexations" ...a bit less > neutral-sounding and laudatory than "intellectualizations". > > I think he picked a good word, for his English-speaking students' sake. (I'll > see if I can research the Chinese word, and obtain several English synonym > translations, and bring them here). > > Vexations we're particularly attached to give us an especially hard time. I > sometimes call them "bewitchments", and I like what the old-fashioned > menacing feel of the term communicates. > > --Joe > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. > > As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. > > ~ Sunryu Suzuki > > I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. > > ...Bill! > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
