Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Both US and Canadian systems have their weaknesses and their strengths. It's kind of like what the Lutheran bishop said on that video that was shown between sessions of conference. To be fair you have to compare best with best. Our waiting lists are indeed longer, but they tend to be longer for patients who really don't need to be at the front of the line. I can assure you, if I fall down the stairs tonight and develop symptoms of a subdural haematoma again (as happened to me several months ago), within an hour I'll be inside an MRI -- and I live 35 km from downtown Edmonton. One problem is calling it a Canadian system, which is misleading, as the provinces actually administer it, and Alberta has been especially pioneering at trying blending some private elements into the system. The provinces have tremendous purchasing clout, because of their size, so they can keep costs down, and the administrative costs of billing, accounts receivable, an dealing with HMOs is completely eliminated from a doctor's practice. Our system also means that everyone gets treatment, and reasonably good treatment at that. I've been a patient in both countries -- in the U.S. it was the Kaiser Permamente Hospital in Vallejo, CA, which is supposed to be part of one of the earliest and best HMOs, but the quality of care was terrible. They misdiagnosed migraine as a psychosis (because I reported seeing an aura, and the doctor said, and so help me this is the truth, whoa there, I don't get into these mental things. We'll have to get you to psychiatry for that. The second time they misdiagnosed lactose intolerance as a duodenal ulcer. When I brought the x-rays back to Calgary when I moved back in Grade XII, my family doctor said there was absolutely no sign of any ulceration anywhere. To be fair, lactose intolerance was not well known in the 70s, but they didn't even do an allergy test. I could tell horror stories that I've heard, too, but enough of that. That, like all stories, is an anecdote, to be sure. And as you say, your verstage may vary. In any case, I found it odd that the person who made the claim that was out by 2 orders of magnitude was himself a Canadian who moved to Utah because his Utah-born wife missed it. Even he had somehow bought into the myth of under-equippage. Just one final item: remember when I wrote how primitive caesium units are for radiotherapy? They'd never be licensed in Canada anymore, but there are two (or were in the mid-80s) private clinics in the U.S., one in Long Island and one in Florida. The U.S. doesn't require a full time medical physicist to be present to keep linear accelerators properly tuned (an almost full-time job as they are extremely complicated machines, and it's very easy to make a fatal mistake), but Canadian law does. So if you're getting radiotherapy, you're safer in Canada. Jon Spencer wrote: I get very uneven reports of the adequacy of medical care from Canadian citizens. YMMV. Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality Careful. Someone on LDS-Poll, who writes under a pseudonym, made a claim that there were only 100 MRIs in all of Canada. It turns out there are almost 25 in Alberta alone (pop.: 3 000 000) after I did some research. Incidentally, private insurance isn't illegal here -- I have Blue Cross, for instance, to cover prescription drugs and a few other things -- it's just that there's not much point to it. Given the power of the government insurance plans (their size), they can negotiate low drug prices with suppliers. That's why drugs cost so much less here. I've had MRI's within hours notice, such as once when I fell and had a serious concussion. They rushed me by ambulance to U of Alberta Hospital and I had an MRI right away (it showed a subdural haematoma). Where we have waiting lists is in non-urgent situations like joint problems. You can wait for several months for an MRI for something like that. Jon Spencer wrote: I have had several MRI's done (I know that is hard to imagine if you live in Canada, given the scarcity of MRI equipment there and the prohibition against private insurance, etc.). Some of the techs have referenced their own experience with this phenomenon, having watches fly across the room, etc. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Careful. Someone on LDS-Poll, who writes under a pseudonym, made a claim that there were only 100 MRIs in all of Canada. It turns out there are almost 25 in Alberta alone (pop.: 3 000 000) after I did some research. Incidentally, private insurance isn't illegal here -- I have Blue Cross, for instance, to cover prescription drugs and a few other things -- it's just that there's not much point to it. Given the power of the government insurance plans (their size), they can negotiate low drug prices with suppliers. That's why drugs cost so much less here. I've had MRI's within hours notice, such as once when I fell and had a serious concussion. They rushed me by ambulance to U of Alberta Hospital and I had an MRI right away (it showed a subdural haematoma). Where we have waiting lists is in non-urgent situations like joint problems. You can wait for several months for an MRI for something like that. Jon Spencer wrote: I have had several MRI's done (I know that is hard to imagine if you live in Canada, given the scarcity of MRI equipment there and the prohibition against private insurance, etc.). Some of the techs have referenced their own experience with this phenomenon, having watches fly across the room, etc. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on the radio and reading about it in the paper. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
At 23:38 11/12/2002 -0800, St Stacy wrote: It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Oh, man, now I have to be TRAINED to be sick!! 8)) Till the tired // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Well, I wasn't talking about the patient, of course not, just the workers. Stacy. At 07:31 AM 11/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 23:38 11/12/2002 -0800, St Stacy wrote: It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Oh, man, now I have to be TRAINED to be sick!! 8)) Till the tired // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Magnetic Personality
Let's see, Marc is taking the word of a guy who used to work for Microsoft, and even though no longer employed by them, spends his time offering to give tours of the grounds of Microsoft's campus H, yeah, I can see why you would hold his observations so highly on this one ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on the radio and reading about it in the paper. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on the radio and reading about it in the paper. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Googling on mri kill boy oxygen gave a couple of hits that looked like confirmations. The first hit was 404; the second was a safety site (http://www.altair.org/hazard.html) that included this warning under Magnetic: Ferrous metal objects can pose a danger near high powered magnets, such as a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) unit because the maagnet draws magnetic objects to it. Flying items can hurt and kill, including a young boy who died in 2001 from injuries after a metal oxygen tank was brought into an MRI unit, flew toward the magnet, and struck him in the head. This sounds more likely; someone foolishly wheeled a steel tank into an occupied MRI unit, resulting in tragedy. Not exactly a confirmation of the event out of the realm of urban legend, I realize, but I can believe it. Hope it didn't really happen, though. Stephen Marc A. Schindler wrote: It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Beecroft: -Marc- ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on the radio and reading about it in the paper. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a Fetch search on MRI killing Tom Lawsuit filed in MRI death By MELISSA KLEIN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: July 4, 2002) WHITE PLAINS The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures. The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days later on July 29. Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday. We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and devastating loss, said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer, Dillof, Livingston Moore, which is representing the Colombinis. The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine. The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul Daniels, who were operating the machine. Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified. Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital. Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not comment on the lawsuit. We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation, Grossman said. A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did not return a call seeking comment. The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a hazardous, unsafe, defective and dangerous condition. Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27, as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine when the accident happened. The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to monitor his oxygen flow, and to properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all necessary and proper oxygen supplies available. General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue appropriate training and safety procedures. According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised. The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the Health Department. What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the room. The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the tank into the MRI room. Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named in the lawsuit because one way or another, they were both involved. The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death. Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken against a doctor. It only makes public final disciplinary actions and no such action was on record with the Health Department as of yesterday. Attempts yesterday to reach Hou, who still works at the medical center, were unsuccessful. The medical center made numerous
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
-Tom- It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a Fetch search on MRI killing Guess you're right. Here's another: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mri010731.html How sad. I know it's old news by now, but still, how tragic. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Stacy. At 10:56 PM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a Fetch search on MRI killing Tom Lawsuit filed in MRI death By MELISSA KLEIN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: July 4, 2002) WHITE PLAINS The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures. The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days later on July 29. Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday. We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and devastating loss, said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer, Dillof, Livingston Moore, which is representing the Colombinis. The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine. The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul Daniels, who were operating the machine. Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified. Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital. Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not comment on the lawsuit. We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation, Grossman said. A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did not return a call seeking comment. The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a hazardous, unsafe, defective and dangerous condition. Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27, as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine when the accident happened. The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to monitor his oxygen flow, and to properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all necessary and proper oxygen supplies available. General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue appropriate training and safety procedures. According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised. The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the Health Department. What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the room. The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the tank into the MRI room. Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named in the lawsuit because one way or another, they were both involved. The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death. Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken against a doctor. It only makes public
