Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
At 22:30 11/22/2002 -0500, St Jon wrote: No. It is known as survival of the FIT - a very big difference. It is not just the fittest that survive. It is those who meet or exceed the minimum requirements. The fittest against one threat may not be able to survive the next threat, whereas the barely able to survive the first threat may be the best at surviving the next. I thought it was survival of the FATTEST! Till the crushed cause he spent so much time trying to survive // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
Jim Cobabe wrote: Adaptation that can be properly characterized as mimicry in plants is indicative of some mechanism or force that cannot be accounted for within the current domain of evolutionary philosophy. This may be your opinion, but it's not the view held by scientists. Why can't it be accounted for by the theory of evolution? (I have never heard of evolutionary philosophy, incidentally). My belief is that the science of evolution cannot accomodate or explain the gradual development of complex subsystems that confer no adaptive advantage to the organism before they are wholly in place and fully functional. That's because that's not what evolution claims. According to evolution, any mutation is neutral. It's what happens when the environment changes, for whatever reason, that bestows upon one mutation a beneficial nature or a harmful nature. That's what survival of the fittest means, and it's a fundamental part of evolution. I don't mean to make this sound like I'm throwing a snit, but if you don't understand evolution, don't criticize it. If you have questions, sub to Eyring-L and faithful, belieiving Latter-day Saint scientists would be happy to answer them and/or point you to appropriate resources. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
Apparently, I have been telling my body to convert whatever muscle mass is left into fat and to migrate it to the vicinity of my belt. I must be doing this while I am asleep, or perhaps while I stuff much needed carbohydrates into my mouth. That's what happened to me because I'm having an operation in early December to have a tumor removed from my left side just above the belt. What a bummer. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Science Dissonance
I'm in the process of trying to rewire my brain, which has difficulty processing
spatial information (balance, in simple words; I can't always tell up from down,
and don't know when I'm falling in the dark until my head hits something). I
bought a nice, slim, beechwood cane, which I call my brown cane as a take-off on
a the term white cane. The hope is that additional tactile input will compensate
for the lack of information from the inner ear (the organs of balance).
Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:
At 16:05 11/22/2002 -0600, Gaaayyy wrote:
We
can rewire our brains (literally) to take new approaches from the old
habits, such as changing our eating and exercise habits, as well as our
attitudes in life. These can all make dramatic differences.
My SIL teaches Neuro-Linguistic-Programming techniques. It is quite
effective. The basic concept is to just remodel the habitual pathways in
the neural system. When we repeat an action (be it physical or mental), we
create pathways that then have a lower resistance, causing that same
pattern to be repeated. The object of the NLP is to recreate those
pathways the way we want them. ** I don't buy into it as heavily as she
obviously does, but I have seen some pretty remarkable changes in some
people's lives after spending time working with the technique. She views
it almost as a pseudo-religion, which, of course, is a point of
(unexpressed, it's best to stay on good terms with family members)
disagreement. But as a therapeutic technique it is quite effective.
Till the cross-wired
** Silly example time. I'm terribly acrophobic and have a difficult time
crossing large-span high suspension bridges. I break out in a cold
sweat. I've been re-programmed in a somewhat silly (works for me 8))
way. When I start on to one of those bridges, the Ride of the Valkyries
comes bursting out of nowhere, full voice, and I cross it in fine style. I
always have to laugh afterwards about how silly it seems, but it works.
Telemarketers used to call at suppertime for so many years (before I
got on to the NY state no-call list) that I've also been programmed to
salivate when the phone rings
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on Winston Churchill
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
Jim, with all due respect, you're out of your depth. This doesn't say what you think it does. See ya on Eyring-L. Jim Cobabe wrote: http://www.nature.com/nsu/021118/021118-10.html; Whatever the mechanism, this is another example of plants colonizing a harsh environment with a little help from their friends - fungi often supply plants with vital nutrients, increase their tolerance to drought, and much else besides. Yet evolution science continues ascribe such complex interactions to a mechanism that depends on random chance. Evolutionists don't worry about such irrelevant considerations--given countless eons of time, most unlikely things are deemed likely to routinely happen. In the news article, the relationship described between a fungus and a grass plant is just incredible. When the fungus protects the roots of this particular plant, both are able to survive in soil temperatures that would normally roast them. Yet neither organism alone exhibits this tolerance for surviving high temperatures. Another example of science providing itself with information that falls outside the assumptions of evolution. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Science Dissonance
Well, for some odd reason I took the skin right off my chicken tonight and
just threw it on my plate, leaving the meat underneath to eat.
Stacy.
At 06:41 PM 11/23/2002 -0700, you wrote:
I'm in the process of trying to rewire my brain, which has difficulty
processing
spatial information (balance, in simple words; I can't always tell up
from down,
and don't know when I'm falling in the dark until my head hits something). I
bought a nice, slim, beechwood cane, which I call my brown cane as a
take-off on
a the term white cane. The hope is that additional tactile input will
compensate
for the lack of information from the inner ear (the organs of balance).
Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:
At 16:05 11/22/2002 -0600, Gaaayyy wrote:
We
can rewire our brains (literally) to take new approaches from the old
habits, such as changing our eating and exercise habits, as well as our
attitudes in life. These can all make dramatic differences.
My SIL teaches Neuro-Linguistic-Programming techniques. It is quite
effective. The basic concept is to just remodel the habitual pathways in
the neural system. When we repeat an action (be it physical or mental), we
create pathways that then have a lower resistance, causing that same
pattern to be repeated. The object of the NLP is to recreate those
pathways the way we want them. ** I don't buy into it as heavily as she
obviously does, but I have seen some pretty remarkable changes in some
people's lives after spending time working with the technique. She views
it almost as a pseudo-religion, which, of course, is a point of
(unexpressed, it's best to stay on good terms with family members)
disagreement. But as a therapeutic technique it is quite effective.
Till the cross-wired
** Silly example time. I'm terribly acrophobic and have a difficult time
crossing large-span high suspension bridges. I break out in a cold
sweat. I've been re-programmed in a somewhat silly (works for me 8))
way. When I start on to one of those bridges, the Ride of the Valkyries
comes bursting out of nowhere, full voice, and I cross it in fine style. I
always have to laugh afterwards about how silly it seems, but it works.
Telemarketers used to call at suppertime for so many years (before I
got on to the NY state no-call list) that I've also been programmed to
salivate when the phone rings
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick
himself up and continue on Winston Churchill
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
//
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/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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RE: [ZION] Science dissonance
Adaptation that can be properly characterized as mimicry in plants is indicative of some mechanism or force that cannot be accounted for within the current domain of evolutionary philosophy. My belief is that the science of evolution cannot accomodate or explain the gradual development of complex subsystems that confer no adaptive advantage to the organism before they are wholly in place and fully functional. In the case of plants which mimic an aphid infestation, it is not possible for any isolated individual characteristic of the multiple adaptive changes required to begin mimicing, to give these plants any higher level of fitness. For example, aphid-like stem growths may consist of several changes at the tissue level of the plant to effectively serve as aphid mimics. Disruption of the regularly smooth deposition of phloem and epidermal tissue layers must take place, to mimic the irregular shape of aphids attached to the plant stem. Subsequently, the irregular tissue must assume contrasting pigmentation to complete the hoax. Neither feature is useful as a mimic independent of the other. Since neither feature independent of the other provides the plant with any evolutionary advantage, any motivating cause for such changes is lacking, and there is nothing to support the idea that the plants developed these features through adaptive evolution. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Science dissonance
Okay, now I'm afraid what I have to say could be considered totally whacko, revolutionary and grounds for me to be committed to a psychiatric institution, but here goes. Within certain parameters, and even outside them if you know what to do, I believe firmly that we can tell our bodies to do something and it will be done because of our belief in the intelligences behind our body parts. On a couple of instances I have been able to tell my body to do something and it has done it. Stacy. At 11:13 AM 11/22/2002 +, you wrote: Adaptation that can be properly characterized as mimicry in plants is indicative of some mechanism or force that cannot be accounted for within the current domain of evolutionary philosophy. My belief is that the science of evolution cannot accomodate or explain the gradual development of complex subsystems that confer no adaptive advantage to the organism before they are wholly in place and fully functional. In the case of plants which mimic an aphid infestation, it is not possible for any isolated individual characteristic of the multiple adaptive changes required to begin mimicing, to give these plants any higher level of fitness. For example, aphid-like stem growths may consist of several changes at the tissue level of the plant to effectively serve as aphid mimics. Disruption of the regularly smooth deposition of phloem and epidermal tissue layers must take place, to mimic the irregular shape of aphids attached to the plant stem. Subsequently, the irregular tissue must assume contrasting pigmentation to complete the hoax. Neither feature is useful as a mimic independent of the other. Since neither feature independent of the other provides the plant with any evolutionary advantage, any motivating cause for such changes is lacking, and there is nothing to support the idea that the plants developed these features through adaptive evolution. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
No. It is known as survival of the FIT - a very big difference. It is not just the fittest that survive. It is those who meet or exceed the minimum requirements. The fittest against one threat may not be able to survive the next threat, whereas the barely able to survive the first threat may be the best at surviving the next. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: http://www.nature.com/nsu/02/02-7.html Plant biologists discuss ways that organisms in the plant world appear to mimic the forms of insect life as a beneficial adaptation. These features are common enough in the plant world to merit a lot of consideration from the evolutionist's philosophy. In order to support a completely naturalistic theory that accounts for species diversity, the mechanism by which such features arise in an organism must necessarily be a fortuitous accident. Define fortuitous. In evolution it's known as survival of the fittest. This article does not report anything that's new as far as *evolution* is concerned. If you'd like to discuss it further, I suggest going to Eyring-L. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Science dissonance
http://www.nature.com/nsu/02/02-7.html Plant biologists discuss ways that organisms in the plant world appear to mimic the forms of insect life as a beneficial adaptation. These features are common enough in the plant world to merit a lot of consideration from the evolutionist's philosophy. In order to support a completely naturalistic theory that accounts for species diversity, the mechanism by which such features arise in an organism must necessarily be a fortuitous accident. As I understand the thinking, random chance accounts for changes in the genetic potential of plant organisms, which may result in expression of traits, which then could possibly happen to prove advantageous to the survivability of that organism. Since there is at least immediately a particular advantage for this adapted plant, it competes more effectively in it's own environmental niche, and reproduces more abundantly than relatively less fit competitors. This shift in the ecological balance results in perpetuating the beneficial trait. It is problematic, however, to refer to such a tenuous probability when looking at specific examples of adaptation that are so marvellously elegant and intricate, even so ingeneously implemented as to effectively merit the admiration of human biologists. In the article cited, the scientists marvel about various forms of mimicry as though these clever plants might blush from praise. Yet obviously, these plants came to adopt such incredible forms merely by chance. No intelligent agent is needed to account for plants that so effectively mimic insects. These scientists unwittingly introduce anthropocentric attributions in their descriptions of plants that mimic insects. To mimic or imitate necessarily seems to imply intelligent direction. Plants have no innate intelligence that science can detect, nor does there seem to be any tenet of evolutionary theory that would explain what force would direct plants to develop such artfully explicit renderings of insects or animals. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Science dissonance
Jim Cobabe wrote: http://www.nature.com/nsu/02/02-7.html Plant biologists discuss ways that organisms in the plant world appear to mimic the forms of insect life as a beneficial adaptation. These features are common enough in the plant world to merit a lot of consideration from the evolutionist's philosophy. In order to support a completely naturalistic theory that accounts for species diversity, the mechanism by which such features arise in an organism must necessarily be a fortuitous accident. Define fortuitous. In evolution it's known as survival of the fittest. This article does not report anything that's new as far as *evolution* is concerned. If you'd like to discuss it further, I suggest going to Eyring-L. As I understand the thinking, random chance accounts for changes in the genetic potential of plant organisms, which may result in expression of traits, which then could possibly happen to prove advantageous to the survivability of that organism. Since there is at least immediately a particular advantage for this adapted plant, it competes more effectively in it's own environmental niche, and reproduces more abundantly than relatively less fit competitors. This shift in the ecological balance results in perpetuating the beneficial trait. It is problematic, however, to refer to such a tenuous probability when looking at specific examples of adaptation that are so marvellously elegant and intricate, even so ingeneously implemented as to effectively merit the admiration of human biologists. Why? Admiration is in the eye of the beholder. In the article cited, the scientists marvel about various forms of mimicry as though these clever plants might blush from praise. Yet obviously, these plants came to adopt such incredible forms merely by chance. No intelligent agent is needed to account for plants that so effectively mimic insects. Mimicry is a well-established and well-defined term in biology. This is hardly the first such example. Think of a walking stick insect, for example. These scientists unwittingly introduce anthropocentric attributions in their descriptions of plants that mimic insects. To mimic or imitate necessarily seems to imply intelligent direction. Plants have no innate intelligence that science can detect, nor does there seem to be any tenet of evolutionary theory that would explain what force would direct plants to develop such artfully explicit renderings of insects or animals. The anthropocentricity is in your reading of the description. Note, too, that what you are quoting is a news item, not the actual article, which appears in the September 2002 of The Biological Journal of the Linnaen Society. --- Mij Ebaboc -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
