Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
>In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase >"free agency," but rather use "moral agency." What the >reason is, I do not know. Sound like this is political correct stuff that I simply don't care for. Does this mean they are going to rewrite the records too? I certainly hope not. I'm going to continue to use the term "free agency" not matter what anyone says. Using Our Free Agency Elder Delbert L. Stapley Of the Council of the Twelve Delbert L. Stapley, Using Our Free Agency, Ensign, May 1975, 21 My brothers, sisters, and friends, one of Gods most precious gifts to man is the principle of free agency... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
Jon Spencer: In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase "free agency," but rather use "moral agency." What the reason is, I do not know. ___ I don't know the answer, but I surmise based on Elder Packer's talks on the subject that there are two reasons. First, it is not free. Our agency came at a terrible price. Second, the term is not in the scriptures. The word agency shows up six times. In one of those places, the words moral agency are used. But those are just my opinions. Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
I'm speculating that it's because, as I say, "free" is ambiguous. People could interpret "free agency" to mean that it doesn't matter what we do, that there are no moral consequences to our actions, that we're "free to do our own thing" as it were. Jon Spencer wrote: > In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase "free agency," but > rather use "moral agency." What the reason is, I do not know. > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > Can't say as I disagree with anything you write. Perhaps the ambiguity of > the > word "free" is what has led to a decrease in popularity of the term "free > agency" > in favour of "moral agency." > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
At 08:08 PM 10/4/02 -0400 Jon Spencer favored us with: >In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase "free agency," but rather use >"moral agency." What the reason is, I do not know. A lot of people abuse the term "free agency" to mean "free from the natural consequences of sin." What the Lord meant was "free to choose between good and evil." And of course, once a man has chosen evil, he is no longer free from the natural consequences of that choice. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
I wonder if you have been asked to not use the term "free agency" because the word "free" might connote to some people that one can use their agency "free" of any consequences. Sure, we have free use of our agency but must accept that any decision has consequences, good or bad; we are not "FREE" of those consequences. And, so I wonder if that's the reason... When I teach YW lessons, I make a conscious effort to not use that term. Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: Jon Spencer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 10/4/2002 7:08:19 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon > > In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase "free agency," but > rather use "moral agency." What the reason is, I do not know. > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > Can't say as I disagree with anything you write. Perhaps the ambiguity of > the > word "free" is what has led to a decrease in popularity of the term "free > agency" > in favour of "moral agency." > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
In CES, we have been instructed to NOT use the phrase "free agency," but rather use "moral agency." What the reason is, I do not know. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Can't say as I disagree with anything you write. Perhaps the ambiguity of the word "free" is what has led to a decrease in popularity of the term "free agency" in favour of "moral agency." / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
Can't say as I disagree with anything you write. Perhaps the ambiguity of the word "free" is what has led to a decrease in popularity of the term "free agency" in favour of "moral agency." Scott McGee wrote: > On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:58:07 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > I agree with you, but think that you are referring to a moral sphere. In > > more > > everyday matters, it's not sin that necessarily limits a country's > > options. > > Marc, > > Your comments were fascinating, and I might come back to them in another > post (I basically agree with you, more or less) but it _was_ the _moral_, > or, rather, spiritual aspects of this topic I wanted to discuss. > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:58:07 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I agree with you, but think that you are referring to a moral sphere. In > more > everyday matters, it's not sin that necessarily limits a country's > options. Marc, Your comments were fascinating, and I might come back to them in another post (I basically agree with you, more or less) but it _was_ the _moral_, or, rather, spiritual aspects of this topic I wanted to discuss. I have yet to figure out why this topic in the scriptures resonates so strongly in me, but it feels really important to me. Every time through the Book of Mormon I read those words, it brings back to me a desire to study this more in depth and understand it better. That is one reason I asked here if anyone else had pondered it. Here are the relavant verses for those who don't have the scriptures ready at hand and want to participate. (I found them on the web, a google search for Book of Mormon returned, as the first hit, a link to http://www.hti/umich.edu/mm/mormon/ which alows nice searching of the Book of Mormon.) 2 Nephi 2: [11] For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. [12] Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. [13] And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. [14] And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. [15] And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. [16] Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. It seems clear from context here that Lehi was teaching that our agency, our ability act, was significant in the creation and in oposition to other creations (anamals, etc. I suppose) that were created to be acted upon. We know that our agency is a key to the mortal experience. It seems it was also a key to the creation. One way I always like to look at thing like freedom (small "f", but I suppose it relates the same to Freedom, as in the patriotic principal our nation was founded on) is that we all have total freedom to act as we wish to start with. As our freedom violates natural laws or other's freedom, we invoke consequences that thereby limit out freedom to act further. I suppose we also limit other people's freedom with our actions. Thus, perfect freedom is obtained only when every person chooses to limit their actions to those that least impact their own, and other people's freedom. Thus, by refusing to choose to act in certain ways, we remain more free to act in general and enjoy a greater freedom. It is sort of a self limiting process if you wish perfect freedom. As long as you don't impact others negatively, you remain perfectly free to do anything you wish. Once we begin to effect others, we invoke consequences that limit our freedom to act, and we begin to enter the realm of being acted upon instead. The more we impose limits on our own actions, the more free we become, while trying to "exorcise" our freedom in harmfull ways limits our future freedom. To be the most free, you must constrain yourself. This ties with my feeling that the process of becoming godlike is one of self control and self mastery. We only begin to aquire the powers of godhood as we aquire the self control of godhood. It is almost zen like in a way, but much more directed and purposefull. We a
[ZION] To act or to be acted upon
There is no such thing as "free" agency. The saints often misconstrue what agency really is. It is the gift of choosing. The war in heaven decided the issue of agency. No one in this life can take a person's agency from him/her (so if your rebellious child says they are demanding their free agency, tell them it is something you can't take away from them. All you can do is give them choices and consequences. You can tell him to go to his room, but he can choose to disobey and accept the consequence, instead). We can only lose the ability to choose from our own actions. When a person chooses sin, he has given his ability to act away. Sin entraps a person, usually little by little, until the person is incapable of acting and can only be acted upon. For example, the person who develops an addiction to sin (drugs, sex, pornography, lying, hatred, etc) does not develop it overnight. Like the bird who sells his feathers one at a time, to the man with worms, he keeps most of his capability at first. Only later does he find it harder to fly to the higher branches. Eventually, his choices cause him to no longer be able to fly. He has now become only able to be acted upon. He doesn't have the choice to fly back up to the branches (or anywhere else) to find food elsewhere. Comparing that to man: The greater light we let into our lives, the greater our ability to act. Those with lesser light, must be acted upon. Many compare the levels of kingdoms with members of the Godhead: Father-Celestial, Son-Terrestrial, Holy Ghost-Telestial, Light of Christ- Outer Darkness. I would imagine that sons of perdition have so little light in their lives that they are only capable of being acted upon, like acting on a rock. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Scott McGee: This reminded me of a topic I wanted to discuss. In the Book of Mormon I seem to recall several places where the idea of being able to act or to be acted upon is presented. It seems to me, that the idea here, is that we are given the ability to act, and our actions determine in large part how well we retain that ability or are degarded to a state of being acted upon. I get the destinct impression that one of the consequenses of sin is to move you more and more to the state of being acted upon. There is a strong resonance for me here. Partly, I think, because I have a strong beleif in teaching my children about consequences. Partly, however, it seems to strike a very strong and familiar chord with my spirit. GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
At 01:41 PM 10/3/2002, you wrote: >Marc, in amongst some other stuff, said the following: > > > We have free agency but limited options, which is usually how life > > works. > >This reminded me of a topic I wanted to discuss. In the Book of Mormon I >seem to recall several places where the idea of being able to act or to >be acted upon is presented. It seems to me, that the idea here, is that >we are given the ability to act, and our actions determine in large part >how well we retain that ability or are degarded to a state of being acted >upon. > >I get the destinct impression that one of the consequenses of sin is to >move you more and more to the state of being acted upon. > >There is a strong resonance for me here. Partly, I think, because I have >a strong beleif in teaching my children about consequences. Partly, >however, it seems to strike a very strong and familiar chord with my >spirit. > >Have any of you ever pondered this topic, or wish to discuss it now? > >Scott I've often wondered about the difference. I'm not sure whether one can become degenerated so far as to lose the ability to act but as least as far as our ability to "act" is concerned, it seems that obedience to God's laws and commandments will enhance our capability to act. If this ability to act is analyzed one can come to the conclusion that this ability to act actually increases ones freedom, and freedom can be broken down into at least four heads--life, liberty, property and knowledge or truth. President David O. McKay once said President David O. Mckay said that freedom or free agency is a "measuring rod" to judge all the actions of men: I refer to the fundamental principle of the gospel, free agency, references in the scriptures show that it is essential to man's salvation and may be a measuring rod by which the actions of men, of organizations and of Nations may be judged. (David O. McKay, Conference Report, April 1940) If freedom is a measuring rod to judge actions, then actions which are good or evil are determined by their effect on freedom or its constituent elements-life, liberty, property and truth. Those actions which are good tend to: 1. Preserve, increase and enhance a persons health, strength and vitality, or to act as a co-creator with God in lawful marriage to bring about "new" life; 2. To protect, enhance or otherwise ensure one's own or another's liberty; 3. To protect or increase one's own or another's property; 4. To increase or enhance one's knowledge of the Truth or to act to promote knowledge in others. Here are a few concrete examples from the scriptures to show what I mean about actions being either good or evil and their effect on life, liberty, property and truth: Murder: The destruction of Life. (Exodus 20:13) Being a Good Samaritan: Preserves and enhances life (Luke 10: 25-37) Abortion: The prohibiting of "New Life" (D&C 59:6) Lawful Marriage: Makes possible procreation which provides for "New" Life (D&C 132:19) Sexual Sin: Prostitutes the "powers of Life" and is next to murder in seriousness (Alma 39:5-6) Chastity and Virtue: Protects the "powers of Life" (D&C 121 :45-46) The Unpardonable Sin: Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; spiritual suicide whereby you crucify Christ unto yourself (D&C 76:35) Obedience to the Word of wisdom: Protects and enhances one's health (D&C 89) Slavery: Prohibits full use of one's faculties and Liberty (D&C 101:79) Liberating the Captive: Assisting in "freeing" others (Jacob 2:19) Theft: Prevents use of property (Exodus 20:15) Work: The production of useful property: By applying labor to the Earth's resources man can "create" property Robbery: The taking of property by force. Prevents use of property (D&C 134:8) Charity: Helps the poor and needy to acquire the necessities of life Arson or Vandalism: Destroys property Military and Police Forces: A positive good if used correctly in defense of private property Lies and Deception: Prevents and distorts truth (2 Nephi 9:34) Honesty and Integrity: Always adheres to the truth (Proverbs 12:22; Job 2:3) Slander: Colors the Truth (Titus 3:2) Teaching: Spreads the truth (Ephesians 4:11) Gossip: Spreads lies or distortions of the truth (Leviticus 19:16) Humility: Being Teachable (Matthew 22:12) Ignorance: Incapacitates the use of truth (Isaiah 5:13) Seeker of Truth: Acquires knowledge for good Likewise, our ability to "act" by using our life, liberty, property or truth can be either enhanced or decreased depending on our obedience to God. As before here are some examples from the scriptures showing how our life, liberty, property and knowledge are affected by either obedience or disobedience: Miriam was stricken with leprosy seven days for complaining against Moses. Which disease debilitated the body and prevented Miriam from exercising or enjoying her full use of the attribute of Life (Numbers 12:1-16) Naaman in obedience to the word of the Lord, dipped himself in the River Jordan
Re: [ZION] To act or to be acted upon
I agree with you, but think that you are referring to a moral sphere. In more
everyday matters, it's not sin that necessarily limits a country's options. It
can be all kinds of things. It's just like people. What did I do to have a stroke
that damaged the right-parietal pre-frontal lobe of my brain? Well, when you link
all the chains of cause and effect together, it's because I was born with a
congenitive heart defect I didn't know about until a valve broke. Obviously
that's not a sin, but the consequences have sure limited my course of options.
Now, that is not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that my life will proceed
in a direction that's different than I had originally anticipated. Who knows --
that could turn out to be a very good thing.
I'll give you an example of how Canada's having their options limited has forced
us to turn lemon into lemonade. As part of my job, I used to compile statistics
on the high-tech infrastructure of various jurisdictions, so our marketing people
could help market the province as a good place to do business ("white espionage"
-- reading, surfing the net, buying reports, talking to people). It turns out
that Canada actually leads the US in Internet penetration (the number of people
per capita who use and have access to the Internet), we lead the US in cell phone
ownership and usage, and we are way ahead of you in broadband and 3rd-generation
research-level Internet infrastructure. Now bear with me, I'm not just bragging
here, there's a point. One of the sources for one of my stats was a US magazine
("Newsweek" as I recall), and they said they figured the reason Canadians used
the Internet more (specifically this stat was who used the Internet to shop
online more, and Canada's #1 in the world, or was when I collected that
particular datum) was because it was so cold up here we had nothing better to do
in the winter. The guy was serious, and it's people like that who reinforce our
image of USAmericans as being ignorant of what happens outside their country;
even if this is an unfair (even untrue) perception, it's fed by anecodote after
anecdote like this.
Now here's my point, now that I got all that off my chest. The real reason Canada
does so well in Internet and telco infrastructure is because we're a gigantic
country (the 2nd largest in the world after Russia) with a population roughly
that of New York state. IOW, communications infrastructure is vital, and is a
higher priority for us because we have to overcome this big geograhic barrier we
have, given our low population density. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, a turn-of-the-20th
century PM once said, "Most countries have too much history. Canada has too much
geography."
Another quick example: the fact that you had a revolution saved us from having to
spill blood, and we negotiated our independence from Britain in gradual, peaceful
steps.
So that's the distinction I keep trying to make, but judging from Stephen's
comments, which I take to be caricatures of my own, rather than restatements of
them, I haven't been too successful at explaining myself.
Scott McGee wrote:
> Marc, in amongst some other stuff, said the following:
>
> > We have free agency but limited options, which is usually how life
> > works.
>
> This reminded me of a topic I wanted to discuss. In the Book of Mormon I
> seem to recall several places where the idea of being able to act or to
> be acted upon is presented. It seems to me, that the idea here, is that
> we are given the ability to act, and our actions determine in large part
> how well we retain that ability or are degarded to a state of being acted
> upon.
>
> I get the destinct impression that one of the consequenses of sin is to
> move you more and more to the state of being acted upon.
>
> There is a strong resonance for me here. Partly, I think, because I have
> a strong beleif in teaching my children about consequences. Partly,
> however, it seems to strike a very strong and familiar chord with my
> spirit.
>
> Have any of you ever pondered this topic, or wish to discuss it now?
>
> Scott
> --
> Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as
> down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
> Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/
>
> --
> http://fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
[ZION] To act or to be acted upon
Marc, in amongst some other stuff, said the following: > We have free agency but limited options, which is usually how life > works. This reminded me of a topic I wanted to discuss. In the Book of Mormon I seem to recall several places where the idea of being able to act or to be acted upon is presented. It seems to me, that the idea here, is that we are given the ability to act, and our actions determine in large part how well we retain that ability or are degarded to a state of being acted upon. I get the destinct impression that one of the consequenses of sin is to move you more and more to the state of being acted upon. There is a strong resonance for me here. Partly, I think, because I have a strong beleif in teaching my children about consequences. Partly, however, it seems to strike a very strong and familiar chord with my spirit. Have any of you ever pondered this topic, or wish to discuss it now? Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
