[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marius Gedminas wrote: On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 12:21:42PM -0400, Tres Seaver wrote: Reinoud van Leeuwen wrote: On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 10:39:22AM -0400, Fred Drake wrote: As a developer it might be a good idea to have different installed pythons in different environments to be sure that some modules (or python itself) meet different requirements. But as system maintainer I like to keep things simple. I do not want similar trees of python installations all over the place if it can be avoided. Just as with Java-based applications: if the server's job includes running Zope, then installing a separate Python interpreter is a pretty low cost, with the following benefits: - You don't risk breaking your production Zope application in a distro-mandated upgrade to Python (e.g., Fedora 7 puts Python 2.5 into /usr/bin/python). That's probably the best reason. I ran away from Debian's Zope 2.x packages because they made upgrades painful. - You may not want to pay the cost of a Python optimized for desktop applications (UCS-4, anyone?) Do you have any numbers? How much memory of a typical Zope 3 app is taken by Unicode strings? (I'm not trying to invalidate your argument, I'm genuinely curious.) No hard numbers, except a vague recollection of shock at the difference in two appservers running the same application, where one was running using a UCS-4 interpreter. Given that pretty much *all* ZPT rendering these days involves Unicode manipulation, lots of the transient memory used while rendering a page (as opposed to the ZODB cache) is potentially affected. - You may need to patch Python to work around a bug which is only problemnatic for long-running Python instances (e.g., the longstanding cgi.FieldStorage DoS problem). I don't think that's a good example. I'd rather patch Zope in this particular case. De gustibus, I guess. Patching Python to work around issues which affect your own application, but where the patch may languish in the SF tracker for more than a year seems reasonable to me. #112549 comes to mind, for instance: although reported against Python 2.3 while 2.3 was still in maintenance, the fix never did make it into a 2.3 release, and missed three third-dot revisions on the 2.4 side. - You can create a repeatable environment for testing each deployed application, even where those applications are running on boxes with different OS / distro-supplied Pythons. There's still a point where you stop, right? You don't have a self-compiled libc and a self-compiled C compiler to make sure your self-compiled Pythons are really identical? I don't go that far (yet ;), but I often do end up building other non-Zope components: - libxml2/lxml, for instance, because the OS-provided one has typically been too old, and because getting the Python wrappers built any other way is a nightmare - postgres, because I want to use Python as a stored procedure language. - Squid3 for ESI. - (hypothetically) Apache + mod_python, because it hard-wires the location of the Python iterpreter / DLLs. The end result is that we can develop on laptops (Linux or Mac) and deploy to production boxes (various Linux flavors, FreeBSD) with a fair amount of confidence that the pieces all work as expected; the platform-specific bits all get manaaged as part of the buildout libraries. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUuOw+gerLs4ltQ4RAiHTAJwL8XV3wdDdzcyKP6/PDbboerU8oQCeLdIj w3R+bkVczZtCvOZXl19/Qjc= =hqDF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Blob backward compatibility
Hey, Jim Fulton wrote: I'm finally looking closely at Blobs and making a few changes. Some of these are backward incompatible. Most are inconsequential. Since Blobs are still considered experimental, I feel fairly free to do this, but I don't want to create undue pain for people. I will make sure that the Zope 3 tests pass after the changes. Is anyone using Blobs in production? Does anyone have precious blob pickles? Not me. The reason for this note is that I do intend to start using them within the next few months. So I'm happy more work is happening on them before I run into them. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Marius Gedminas wrote: [snip the problems with system pythons] seem to be minor inconveniences rather than show-stoppers to me. I'd love to hear real horror stories. Not sure whether this counts as a horror story, but... Recently I upgraded my desktop to Ubuntu Feisty. So I was running this buildout generated Python script. It had an ImportError in it. I saw the traceback for the ImportError, but it was suspiciously long and contained a lot of code I didn't recognize. Something called Apport. It was intercepting my uncaught exceptions. I looked at the traceback and saw it was trying some code, under Python 2.4, that only worked on Python 2.5. The 'any' function, I believe. The idea of Apport, as I understand, is to do a visual popup when an error occurs in an application, and give the option to send a mail to Ubuntu. It turns out whenever you run a python script which has the executable flag set (starting it with python myscript.py or ./myscript.py doesn't matter), and an uncaught exception occurs, Apport kicks in. Buildout sets its 'bin' scripts to executable. Apport is quite a bit of code, and it was also clear it had never been tested properly with Python 2.4. I found out in launchpad this was actually one of *two* 2.4 compatibility bugs in Apport. I don't like a lot of code running whenever I get exception in a library I have nothing to do with. Additionally, my level of trust in this code isn't high after discovering it had such basic problems. I have put a bug report for Ubuntu suggesting the hook at least doesn't kick in (or only minimally kicks in) when the script in question isn't in some system directory, but I haven't received a response on this yet. I was rather annoyed at the whole situation. I switched to a hand-compiled python right away. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On May 22, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: ... I was rather annoyed at the whole situation. I switched to a hand- compiled python right away. Better late than never. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] sqlscript/Connection Names
I noticed in the current build that zope.app.sqlscript or zope.sqlscript is missing from the distribution. Also the vocabulary name Connection Names is also missing. I would include them in separate emails, but they seem related. Any ideas on how to fix it? -- David ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Blob backward compatibility
I'm also just starting working on a project (my first paid project on Zope3 \o/) that will probably include blobs, because it will store some videos (100Mo) for an extranet. Should I expect incompatible changes to happen in the next few months? Should I consider blobs now, or should I stick with some kind of extfile? Christophe btw, I'm unable to upload any file bigger than 40kB, so 100Mb looks like a dream for now... Martijn Faassen a écrit : Hey, Jim Fulton wrote: I'm finally looking closely at Blobs and making a few changes. Some of these are backward incompatible. Most are inconsequential. Since Blobs are still considered experimental, I feel fairly free to do this, but I don't want to create undue pain for people. I will make sure that the Zope 3 tests pass after the changes. Is anyone using Blobs in production? Does anyone have precious blob pickles? Not me. The reason for this note is that I do intend to start using them within the next few months. So I'm happy more work is happening on them before I run into them. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/ccomb%40free.fr ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Marius Gedminas wrote at 2007-5-22 14:18 +0300: ... seem to be minor inconveniences rather than show-stoppers to me. I'd love to hear real horror stories. I do not have horror stories but dislike system pythons because they tend to have debugging symbols stripped. Unfortunately, Zope applications sometimes crash or spin and it is often very efficient to be able to use a C level debugger to analyse such situations. However, this has only any hope when Python still has its debugging information... -- Dieter ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 22.05.2007, 20:56 +0300 schrieb Marius Gedminas: Is there any documentation about how to extract the Python level stack trace when you've attached to a Python program at C level with gdb? (One of my fantasies (i.e. projects I'll never find the time to work on) is adding Python support to sysprof, the whole-system statistical profiler for Linux.) I just contributed an updated version of the gdb macros that allow you to do this. Look here: http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Misc/gdbinit?rev=39492view=auto My patch isn't in there yet, see this posting too: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/88120 Christian -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
