Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Hi, I do agree with Pascal and Michael (details inline), the document is supposed to be modified and improved after WG adoption, this is not WGLC. Ciao L. -Original Message- From: 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Thursday, 9 February 2023 09:32 To: Michael Richardson ; Kerry Lynn Cc: carles.go...@upc.edu; 6lo@ietf.org Subject: Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Hi Kerry and Michael > Kerry Lynn > mailto:kerlyn=40ieee@dmarc.ietf.org>> > wrote: > > My main reason is that the draft has no Security Considerations > section, > > and I am not sure the > > scheme can be made secure. I believe the WG should always > consider the > > I don't think that the lack of a SC section is a reason not to adopt. > (They are *drafts* and do not need to be complete. This is not WGLC) > > If you think that the scheme can never be secured, then that would be > different. Yes, this is WG adoption not IETF last call. For the use cases I have in mind, this scheme is actually a lot safer than more dynamic stuff. [LI] The security consideration part is one of the unfinished section of the document, but: - since this is a WG adoption call we do not need it finalized now. - This proposal IMO does not introduce any new security threat. We will continue work with 6lo participant to provide a complete and fair security considerations section. > > > Second, the fact that routing is based on addressing makes me wonder > > whether this effort > > would encroach on Routing Area's charter. > > I don't think that they want it. There's no routing. Think of a network that's an array or a matrix of sensors, hard wired, like a ccd. Say you want to reach each sensor in the ccd with IPv6/6LoWPAN. You could index them x, y, and encode x, y in an IP address so the addressing is automatic and predictable. No need of ND, all usable addresses known in advance so you can block a number of well-known attacks. Now, say that instead of being organized as an array, the sensors are organized as an hard wired tree (possibly with redundancy depending on the application). Just like you may be doing with a few switches at home today, no meshing, no need for STP. Should that make a difference? Couldn't we automatically and predictably assign an address to each of these sensors? The application I have in mind uses hard wired devices and switches and everything is done at L2. There's a L2 form of L2 learning that feels like transparent bridging. It's over complicated for the need, and prone to bugs. With the proposed scheme, the address embeds the structure of the last hop which can be more complex than x or x,y and still as predictable. From the IP perspective it's still one hop, no routing. [LI] Nice example :-) > > > Third, one potential application that has been suggested is low-cost > > sensors in server racks, > > yet I have seen no suggested wired MAC for this application. RFC 8163 > > covers this base. [LI] I do not see the need to define a specific MAC, the solution is general in the proposed scope. RFC 8163 is one possible solution for one specific scenario and this document does not claim that it should be deployed everywhere or replace anything existing. As a lot of other technologies it offers an alternative (for specific use cases). > > I don't buy this solution either, btw. You need a good use case for that I guess. Once the WG owns the draft, we can improve the encoding and possibly extend it to more classical physical structure. Note that x and x,y are very simple trees and already supported. [LI] Looks like a good plan :-) All the best Pascal > -- > Michael Richardson mailto:mcr+i...@sandelman.ca>>, > Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org<mailto:6lo@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Hi Kerry and Michael > Kerry Lynn wrote: > > My main reason is that the draft has no Security Considerations > section, > > and I am not sure the > > scheme can be made secure. I believe the WG should always consider the > > I don't think that the lack of a SC section is a reason not to adopt. > (They are *drafts* and do not need to be complete. This is not WGLC) > > If you think that the scheme can never be secured, then that would be > different. Yes, this is WG adoption not IETF last call. For the use cases I have in mind, this scheme is actually a lot safer than more dynamic stuff. > > > Second, the fact that routing is based on addressing makes me wonder > > whether this effort > > would encroach on Routing Area's charter. > > I don't think that they want it. There's no routing. Think of a network that's an array or a matrix of sensors, hard wired, like a ccd. Say you want to reach each sensor in the ccd with IPv6/6LoWPAN. You could index them x, y, and encode x, y in an IP address so the addressing is automatic and predictable. No need of ND, all usable addresses known in advance so you can block a number of well-known attacks. Now, say that instead of being organized as an array, the sensors are organized as an hard wired tree (possibly with redundancy depending on the application). Just like you may be doing with a few switches at home today, no meshing, no need for STP. Should that make a difference? Couldn't we automatically and predictably assign an address to each of these sensors? The application I have in mind uses hard wired devices and switches and everything is done at L2. There's a L2 form of L2 learning that feels like transparent bridging. It's over complicated for the need, and prone to bugs. With the proposed scheme, the address embeds the structure of the last hop which can be more complex than x or x,y and still as predictable. From the IP perspective it's still one hop, no routing. > > > Third, one potential application that has been suggested is low-cost > > sensors in server racks, > > yet I have seen no suggested wired MAC for this application. RFC 8163 > > covers this base. > > I don't buy this solution either, btw. You need a good use case for that I guess. Once the WG owns the draft, we can improve the encoding and possibly extend it to more classical physical structure. Note that x and x,y are very simple trees and already supported. All the best Pascal > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 > IoT consulting =- > > ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Kerry Lynn wrote: > My main reason is that the draft has no Security Considerations section, > and I am not sure the > scheme can be made secure. I believe the WG should always consider the I don't think that the lack of a SC section is a reason not to adopt. (They are *drafts* and do not need to be complete. This is not WGLC) If you think that the scheme can never be secured, then that would be different. > Second, the fact that routing is based on addressing makes me wonder > whether this effort > would encroach on Routing Area's charter. I don't think that they want it. > Third, one potential application that has been suggested is low-cost > sensors in server racks, > yet I have seen no suggested wired MAC for this application. RFC 8163 > covers this base. I don't buy this solution either, btw. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Greetings, I do not support adoption of this draft by the 6lo WG at this time, but IETF is run by consensus and I am just a single voice. My main reason is that the draft has no Security Considerations section, and I am not sure the scheme can be made secure. I believe the WG should always consider the IPv6 "brand" when it takes on new drafts. At one point, we were quite concerned with privacy considerations; RFC 8605 stated that global addresses should contain at least 46 bits of entropy. Recent work in 6man (in the context of draft-ietf-6man-rfc6874bis) examined scripting attacks that suggest that at least this much entropy be included in link-local addresses as well. Second, the fact that routing is based on addressing makes me wonder whether this effort would encroach on Routing Area's charter. Third, one potential application that has been suggested is low-cost sensors in server racks, yet I have seen no suggested wired MAC for this application. RFC 8163 covers this base. If hosts are connected via Ethernet or PLC, why would this scheme be required? Perhaps if these areas are addressed? Respectfully, Kerry Lynn On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 8:50 AM Carles Gomez Montenegro < carles.go...@upc.edu> wrote: > Dear 6lo WG, > > As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified > based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as > Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). > > The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft > has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors > have requested a call for adoption of the draft. > > This message starts a call for WG adoption for > draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. > > (Link below: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 > ) > > The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). > > Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. > > Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review > the document, will be very much appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Shwetha and Carles > ___ > 6lo mailing list > 6lo@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo > ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\) wrote: > A number of IoT use case with fixed wiring were brought up that justify > the need for this smart automated numbering. The proposed solution is > tightly integrated in the 6LoRH family which is enriched in the > process. While, I am skeptical about how this will really work in the field, I agree that the work should be adopted. PS is not final afterall, and could be revised as we learn more. I am particularly interested this work in that it gets away from silly-L2-tricks where we pretend it's all a big-yellow-cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10BASE5 -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
I also support adoption (as coauthor). A number of IoT use case with fixed wiring were brought up that justify the need for this smart automated numbering. The proposed solution is tightly integrated in the 6LoRH family which is enriched in the process. All the best, Pascal From: 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Galis, Alex Sent: mardi 31 janvier 2023 11:44 To: carles.go...@upc.edu; 6lo <6lo@ietf.org> Cc: Galis, Alex Subject: Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 +1 agreed (i.e. WG adopting this document) Best Regards Prof Alex Galis On 25 Jan 2023, at 13:49, Carles Gomez Montenegro mailto:carles.go...@upc.edu>> wrote: ⚠ Caution: External sender Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org<mailto:6lo@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
+1 agreed (i.e. WG adopting this document) Best Regards Prof Alex Galis On 25 Jan 2023, at 13:49, Carles Gomez Montenegro wrote: ⚠ Caution: External sender Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Hi, As a co-author of the document I support its adoption. The input the 6lo community gave throughout 2022 made the proposed solution very solid. Ciao L. From: 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carles Gomez Montenegro Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2023 14:50 To: 6lo@ietf.org Subject: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Hi 6Io WG, This is Zhuo Li, an Internet researcher from Future Internet Architecture Research Team at Tianjin University. Our team has been eyeing this proposal for some time. As it has been fully discussed, we think this version is mature enough. I also support the adoption of this usefull work as a 6lo WG document. kindly Regards, Zhuo Li Zhuo Li 李卓 (Ph.D.) Associate Professor, School of Microelectronics, Tianjin University Mobile: +86 13821465706 From: Carles Gomez Montenegro Date: 2023-01-25 21:49:41 To: 6lo@ietf.org Subject: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Hi WG, I support the adoption, it has been presented several times and has enough discussion. I think this version is mature enough to be adopted. Regards, Peng liupeng...@chinamobile.com From: Carles Gomez Montenegro Date: 2023-01-25 21:49 To: 6lo Subject: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Chairs, Support as a co-author and because of its relevance to Industrial IoT addressing. —Kiran On January 25, 2023 at 5:50:01 AM, Carles Gomez Montenegro ( carles.go...@upc.edu) wrote: Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 ) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Dear 6lo WG, I sincerely appreciate the help from 6lo community and present my support to the adoption of this draft. Welcome more experts help to review it and enhance its quality. Kind Regards, Guangpeng Li From: 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carles Gomez Montenegro Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 9:50 PM To: 6lo@ietf.org Subject: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Dear 6lo WG, I support the adoption of the draft. Best regards, Marco Carugi - AIOTI WG Standardization > > > > *From:* 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Carles Gomez Montenegro > *Sent:* Wednesday, 25 January 2023 14:50 > *To:* 6lo@ietf.org > *Subject:* [6lo] Call for WG adoption of > draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 > > > > Dear 6lo WG, > > > > As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified > based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as > Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). > > > > The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft > has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors > have requested a call for adoption of the draft. > > > This message starts a call for WG adoption for > draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. > > (Link below: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 > ) > > The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). > > Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. > > Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review > the document, will be very much appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Shwetha and Carles > ___ > 6lo mailing list > 6lo@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo > ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
Re: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01
Dear 6lo WG, The PASA solution encodes path information into addresses to enable stateless forwarding, suitable for applications with wired and static networks. Based on the received feedback and constructive discussion, we added in the PASA draft a “comprehensive use cases” chapter to provide a deeper view on a few use cases with wired connectivity and static topology to demo the applicability of the PASA solution. On top of that, by adding a new PASA_6LoRH routing header, the PASA is integrated into the overall 6LowPAN architecture. The forwarding behavior has been updated accordingly. As one of the co-authors, I support the adoption of the draft. Kind regards David Lou From: 6lo <6lo-boun...@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carles Gomez Montenegro Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2023 14:50 To: 6lo@ietf.org Subject: [6lo] Call for WG adoption of draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01 Dear 6lo WG, As you may recall, the work formerly known as 'NSA' has been modified based on the feedback provided by the WG. The work has also been renamed as Path-Aware Semantic Addressing (PASA). The initial version of the PASA draft was presented in IETF 115. The draft has been updated to address the comments received. After that, the authors have requested a call for adoption of the draft. This message starts a call for WG adoption for draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01. (Link below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6lo-path-aware-semantic-addressing-01) The call will end on the 8th of February 23:59 (UTC). Please state whether you are in favor of adopting this document. Also, any comments you may have, and/or expressions of interest to review the document, will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Shwetha and Carles ___ 6lo mailing list 6lo@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
