>the flash translation layer, which was developed for nor flash and is
>suspect with nand flash
it's not "suspect" as such: just not implemented because it's the wrong
approach.
FTL's design assumes you can rewrite a word, flipping bits off (but never on),
to change a physical/logical map efficie
>this version madness confuses me. i could not get it to run on 9.10.
i had 9vx running fine in 9.10 on the same machine.
it was the upgrade to 10.04 LTS that messed it up today.
i wonder why the library allocation addresses are different.
>can you run the current 9vx in 9.04?
yes
% ldd 9vx.Linux # old
...
% ldd 9vx # new
note that `old' is run on an existing 9.04 (2.6.28-18-generic), which works,
and `new' is the 10.04 (2.6.32-21-generic), which doesn't.
% ldd 9vx.Linux # old
linux-gate.so.1 => (0xb772)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0xb7617000)
...
% ldd 9vx # new
linux-gate.so.1 => (0x00704000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x00c35000)
...
where an obvious difference is tha
>2.6.32-21-generic according to uname -a
or is that a combination?
2.6.32-21-generic according to uname -a
having upgraded a machine to ubunut 10.04LTS yesterday,
9vx now crashes with a segmentation violation shortly after
saying it is starting /bin/rc. has anyone else a similar
problem on that or another linux system? 9vx itself was unchanged,
but i also tried recompiling it (in case a linux include fi
>I agree that NAT and stateful firewalls (e.g. 'ip inspect' in IOS)
>would need explicit support to understand the packet layout.
it's a pity that the protocol revisions didn't move the port-addressing
function outside individual protocols.
when timing http it's also a good idea to check that your
isp hasn't got the item cached. admittedly, that in itself
is a further potential advantage to http, because http
caches abound, whereas 9p-based caches are few and far between.
>but c89 rules do seem a bit more sensible to me as they avoid surprises
have you read the rules?
on 64-bit machines, int and long are 32 bits,
long long (vlong) is 64 bits, just as on 32-bit machines,
but pointers are 64 bits. defines uintptr
as the integer type that will hold a pointer.
u8int, u16int, u32int and u64int are used in device drivers
and elsewhere to declare values (eg, in memor
>vapor. That thing was pure vapor from start to end.
i think that's a little unfair. they did produce something
but underestimated the time and treasure required to make
a prototype even moderately usable. had it been only the
lack of software, they could have fixed it, but they were
stuck too ear
>But for future reference should errno.h be used in Plan 9 programms or not?
not using plan 9's own libraries (it has neither errno nor errno.h),
but APE (ANSI/POSIX) programs should use
>Can someone explain how this happened?
>d-rwxrwxr-x M 8 '(rounin)' '(rounin)' 0 Feb 14 18:28 rounin
it means there isn't an entry for "rounin" in /adm/users,
so it shows the name unchanged as stored by fossil.
(it's stored without the () -- those are just to distinguish the internal
name from a n
>I don't know how else let skip now.
facebook?
>seems like a bug to me. the spec is pretty clear:
it's quite deliberate, having looked at the code.
i suspect the rationale was that, finally, C provided a way
outside the preprocessor to give symbolic names to constants.
why restrict that to int?
you can't easily get the same effect by adding #
i didn't even think to check earlier. even better:
enum{
Fred= 1.5,
Sam,
};
double f = Fred;
double g = Sam;
h% 8c -S en.c
DATAf+0(SB)/8,$(1.5e+00)
DATAg+0(SB)/8,$(2.5e+00)
GLOBL f+0(SB),$8
GLOBL g+0(SB),$
h% cat en.c
enum{
Fred= 1.5
};
double f = Fred;
h% 8c -S en.c
DATAf+0(SB)/8,$(1.5e+00)
GLOBL f+0(SB),$8
END ,
bug or quirk?
what do you think?
> I guess I wasn't clear; what I was asking was why it was safe to
> attempt to take a lock when splhi() at all.
because such a lock is always taken with splhi, using ilock.
you might find in older code the use of lock in interrupt handlers,
protected by the implicit splhi of interrupt handling, a
>"Our scripts will read them and cause trouble" is the basic complaint.
unlike reading all those harmless files in /dev with no side-effects whatsoever
>perhaps this would be better in /dev/cons/cpuid ?
doppio% ls '#P'
'#P/archctl'
'#P/cputype'
'#P/ioalloc'
'#P/iob'
'#P/iol'
'#P/iow'
'#P/irqalloc'
'#P/realmode'
'#P/realmodemem'
doppio% cat '#P/cputype'
AMD64 1802
doppio% cat '#P/archctl'
cpu AMD64 1802 pge
pge on
coherence mb586
cmpswap cmpswap
> 1. We use Lf/Rt arrows to move the cursor, don't we? Then use Up/Dn to do
> the same kind of task is symmetric, and thus more reasonable.
you're assuming the task is symmetric; perhaps left/right and up/down
aren't analogous, because x movement in a fixed y (left/right) is not the same
as y move
>i don't believe these two cases can be distinguished.
you're right, and indeed don't believe it either.
>you're right, and indeed don't believe it either.
i meant: and indeed I don't believe it either.
in the first case, you'll see the last Twrite and then a Tclunk.
in the second, you'll see the first Twrite and then a Tflush (followed by
a Tclunk when cat exits).
>you could also modify ldevfs-posix.c to accept DMEXCL
>and map that to O_EXCL|O_CREAT which may actually do the
>right thing.
no, it won't: OEXCL, perhaps, but not DMEXCL.
i'd have thought it should be used in fscreate, though,
to help chan.c implement OEXCL correctly. fscreate should
fail if the
http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/1/f77
i'd be surprised if subsequently it had changed much.
>Is there any reason a locked increment is being used?
good question. i thought it might be a new tradition.
i don't think it's needed.
> i wonder if there's a way of perverting fs(3)
i made the comment fairly idly, so i shouldn't take it too seriously.
>bind '#j4.5' /mnt/joined
> ... to get a (read-only) fd that satisfies reads from fd 4
>until eof, then fd 5.
i wonder if there's a way of perverting fs(3)
>(And if so, can I build [plan9port rc] and use it independent of the rest
> of the tools?)
building it standalone will be hard, although you can reduce the surrounding
source
considerably, since it uses mainly or only lib9 (plan 9 libc).
a little experiment suggests that once built,
you mig
> * who is maintaining the UNIX port of rc shell? (is it still
>Tig?) (if so what's the email address?)
if it's Byron Rakitzis' rc, it's not a `port' to UNIX of Plan 9's rc,
but an independent implementation, with differences in the language,
although it's quite usable and both versions are li
>the implicit conversion on return also appears botched.
both this:
uint
fun(void)
{
double g;
g = 4215866817.;
USED(g);
return g;
}
void
main(void)
{
uint x;
double g;
x = fun();
USED(x);
g = 1.;
exits("");
}
and
oh! getival is yours? but it's in the changes on the - lines not the + lines.
the diffs have crossed the equator!
i think i understand now.
so the original had statements such as:
wc = (int)getfval(x);
and for excessive values in x (that couldn't be represented as an int)
there was
those fixes really don't seem right to me. the problem is in getival
or its callers. somewhere along the way, ULONG_MAX is converted to double
and then back to int (directly or indirectly). that yields a trap. now, in the
case
int x;
x = (uint)d;
the compiler is wrong to eliminate
i hadn't noticed the changed example.
it's removing the cast, which probably isn't right, although
in that particular case it's probably better
that it should trap (because the result is wrong).
what is the actual code in awk that's equivalent to that sequence?
#include
#include
void
main(void)
{
double g = 4215866817.;
print("%d\n", (unsigned int)g);
print("%d\n", (unsigned int)g);
exits("");
}
8c r.c
8l r.8
./8.out
-79100479
-79100479
no trap. it generates different code.
(obviously the %d should be %ud in this case,
g = 4215866817.;
x = (int)g;
does g fit in (int)? (no, (int) is 32 bit signed.)
if (int) is (uint) it will fit, and not trap.
the fppc points to the offending instruction.
>If it is, there's a depth of cleverness in the new Plan 9
>security model that I had missed until now, namely the elimination of
>the intermediate "superuser" step required by the Unix paradigm.
indeed that's the point.
>Reality is that the rate of introduction/change of hardware/silicon is too
>fast
>for any small - or even 'medium sized' team (FreeBSD for example) to keep up
>with on their own... and that gap is widening.
that's not usually the biggest problem, although it's true that lack of time
can be a p
> I don't know how hideously complicated it would be, to implement a module
> interface that would support loading linux modules into whatever other OS
> such as Plan 9.
only as hideously complicated as the linux kernel interfaces might be,
but sadly those are indeed hideously complicated. try tra
>If Plan9 can 'plumb' a remote sound card, (a questionable example long
>publicized) I'm sure it can do so with a mouse.
it isn't plumbing, but export/import, and it's useful.
i had a usable sound system on my r3000 indigo, but my PC had none.
on the pc, i imported the indigo's /dev and played so
>however the invarient that there is exactly one wakeup for
>every sleep requires some careful accounting that
>can be equally error prone.care not to double-interrupt.
if a process p sleeps on r for condition f, and there are two wakeup(r), only
the first wakeup does anything because by the time
it isn't protecting against double wakeups, but
instead detects a bug in the code. there's an invariant
that the rendez and the process point to each other
while the process is asleep.
wakeup checks that invariant.
there are three primitives (sleep, wakeup and note)
and at different times in the pa
it's /rc/bin/ape/ls that would change, not Plan 9's ls-proper.
what does autoconf do with the `inode number'?
International arrivals at ATL might be unprepared for the unusual procedure
after immigration, baggage reclaim and customs. Having passed through customs,
you reach a fork in the path with a choice between Atlanta and Transit
Passengers.
(I think it was left for Atlanta.) Then there's an extra sur
this ought to have been better organised so we could all set off
from the airport at once http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHa_jqxnn4o--- Begin Message ---
I'll be in around 9pm or so the 20th, if I can give anyone a ride I will.
ron--- End Message ---
>I'll try to get an european version here.
the device itself still has a US style plug attached to it.
the only difference is that it comes with one of those power leads
with a figure-8 connector and a plug (UK in my case but presumably euro in
yours).
to use that, you need to unscrew the US styl
>Or is there a way via the usb port to get serial console (does not
>seem so from block diagram)
yes. the mini-usb connector is, in fact, a reverse rs232-usb device
that puts the internal rs232 console on that external connector on usb.
you can just plug it in to a usb connection on another machin
>[rog] i'd be up for driving, assuming my UK driving license is sufficient.
>[bill]License should be no problem with any of the major rental agencies.
i've never had any trouble, but note that with a UK licence,
if you've got a photocard, you must also produce
the paper part: the `licence' is act
> cat -
cat /fd/0
>Perhaps a rule in the mkfile which would check/create empty directories?
perhaps. there are several alternatives, and no doubt i'll switch
to use a mix as appropriate. the annoying thing is that
previously, whether through tar, replica, or even subversion, a suitable
skeleton would appear without
>committing a ".emptydir" file in each directory would be easier.
why bother making it .emptydir (ie, with the dot) when that makes it
invisible on broken host systems (with the ls bug) but visible under inferno
itself.
more important, and the reason i didn't do that,
if it's visible under infern
it does work, and you can authenticate to plan 9 using
Inferno's factotum (or, if you're running Inferno on Plan 9,
using Plan 9's factotum within Inferno).
the "bad fversion conversion ..." suggests that whatever you're
running with aux/listen1 is spitting out something else before
starting the p
> i mentioned that the pool library can act as a big
> kernel lock a few weeks ago. i don't know if anyone
> has thoughts on how to deal with this.
it isn't really a `big kernel lock' in the linux sense.
the big kernel lock was the device by which operating systems
written with only a uniprocesso
we'd have been much better off if Apple had instead spent the
time and effort writing a decent iTunes, or opening their platform
interfaces enough that someone else could do it (and on Linux, not just Mac or
Windows).
>I am trying to port nhc98 the bytecode haskell compiler.
i see. that makes it much harder to try my suggestion.
i wonder why the compiler doesn't generate char* (or unsigned char*) for
those defines? perhaps directly changing that would be better.
if it needed a void* result then
#define CT_v249
you might consider using a sed script to change the CT_.* style #defines,
and run the sed script from the mkfile/makefile, so although the
porting is (in your sense) `destructive' it's done by changing the
original source file automatically. you could sed (say) from a .h.orig to a .h
using a single
if people would leave off moaning about moaning,
we'd clear the space for more moaning about lisp
although the former did have the advantage that the
messages were shorter and didn't quote the bulk of
all previous messages.
anyone written any software recently?
at this point it probably doesn't ma
>is it valid just to add to make the porting non-destructive?
>#ifdef Plan9
>#define void unsigned char
>#endif
not really, as a global define. it's legal to write
Type *t;
t = malloc(sizeof(*t));
and that won't work unless malloc returns a real void* (only
void* is compatible wi
there's a bug in the control of the software cursor in plan 9,
probably when loadimage is used. it can leave what my children call chicken
tracks,
as it updates the cursor. it shows up in at least vnc and inferno because they
use the equivalent of
loadimage on the screen to update their displays.
>Perhaps he [me?] can further elaborate.
i certainly did not have comeau in mind.
>IMHO, I'd say C is C and I think it's better to leave
>it as it is. If you want a language with extra features you can
>probably find one.
the blocks thing only works (apparently) by having two (visible) classes of
function pointers.
ugh. `clang' is apparently not just the name of the frontend
>How about we convince the mailing list software to stop
>inserting Reply-To headers.
please don't. it's a list, with reply to the list.
qed allowed naming of regular expressions using `e' and their recursive
invocation
using \E, with results suggested earlier.
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/qedman.html
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/qedman.pdf
``It should be noted that the ability to define regular expressions recu
i use html, then any browser will do, even ie6 for most things.
i use an rc script and awk to take an outline format such as
- burble
- more burble
- even more burble
with some other conventions to allow embedded code fragments.
it's obviously easy to link to
sorry, i did realise. i'm afraid i just couldn't resist slightly
misquoting Flanders and Swann's `Song of Reproduction' (High Fidelity).
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Flanders-Swann-Georges-Brassens/dp/B06T4S/ref=pd_sim_b_1--- Begin Message ---
Charles Forsyth wrote:
>
>Hardware 24...@192khz.
the human ear can't hear as high as that
still, it ought to please any passing bat!
Hi-fi, hi-fi, ...
>we have scsi and ata.
>and that's enough for me.
that's more than enough for me.
> ... Inferno's implementation of mp3 in the kernel device file ...
it does?
>Soldering iron (nice old temperature controlled Weller) breaks down (never
>heard of)!
that's amazing.
>8c complains, there is **certainly** an algorithm error somewhere
for certainties, (such as many type errors) 8c unlike some others
generates fatal errors, not warnings. it's a warning because it can't be
absolutely sure that you don't know what you're doing, or that you
aren't particularly cunni
>the extra 4 pins are not required, but
>they do give one extra flexability in selecting a power
>supply.
the original uniprocessor intel atom board required
the extra 4 pin connection to be made (or bodged).
>maybe the kernel should use something like this to validate pointers
>to null terminated strings?
it could just call vmemchr correctly
or vmemchr could be a touch more careful
you can get similar effects by remapping things.
i meant that it isn't likely to happen by accident, so am i bovvered?
fault386 needs to be fixed mainly by or for people running a shared cpu
server with hostile users (ie, students).
for the rest of us it might be more useful to have the panic
to pr
>but my testcase crashes a uniprocessor system, so here is no
>waiting for mmuflushes on other processors going on.
it ensures mmuflushes in all other processes (sharing that segment) as well.
in fact, the crash you describe just emphasises that point:
the page reference no longer exists, hence th
this resulted in a little side discussion.
to save someone else from having to break a strong oath about 9fans,
i'll sum it up. the existing code handles this situation.
when several processes share a segment, and any one of them
decides to shrink the segment, all the processes must see
the change
>with a zero modulus (which suggests the key wasn't unpacked correctly).
my deliberate mistake (it won't be using rsaencrypt but rsadecrypt)
happened to highlight the actual problem, which is that strtosk
shouldn't accept a string that looks to me (if not to it)
like a public key not a private/sec
just stop processes with s->ref > 1 from freeing parts of s with ibrk.
it's not as if anything ever does in practice.
if you make an entry in the bugs list at inferno-os.googlecode.com i'll look at
it shortly.
sorry. i accidentally deleted the first line of that reply:
it will be mpdiv via mpmod via mpexp via rsaencrypt,
with a zero modulus (which suggests the key wasn't unpacked correctly).
but if you make an entry in the bugs list ... etc
>the unicode proposal says that matches depend on (re, locale, input).
>not just (re, input). i would think that is not acceptable.
it's not just the unicode people. shell file name matching takes locale into
account
which often makes it case-independent (even with case-dependent
file systems).
>if there is no real browser for the platform,
>how will Plan 9 participate in the "cloud computing" (r)evolution?
not using a browser.
careful now.
down with this sort of thing!
you're right. i wasn't thinking correctly.--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2009-07-20 at 10:53 +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> >pipe would return -1 (and set a error condition) and the
> >applications were paying attention (and I'm pretty sure all
> >applications on P
>pipe would return -1 (and set a error condition) and the
>applications were paying attention (and I'm pretty sure all
>applications on Plan 9 would do a reasonable thing when
>presented with -1 from a write).
they only notice when the write occurs. suppose that takes
several minutes of computatio
>Before I say anythign daft, what's '+'? It does not appear to be special on my
>system.
it's interpreted by mkfs in its proto file to mean all the substructure of a
directory.
see mkfs(8).
d character and block "special files" as special
types of files in a physical file system, to represent devices.--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 19, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
not for network connections?
i think pipe is the only case, and even that is suppressed
for pipes t
>not for network connections?
i think pipe is the only case, and even that is suppressed
for pipes that carry 9p, after mounting.
disconnecting a usb device should result (eventually)
in a suitable status on the relevant hub, and thus
shouldn't require a timeout to get an error back to the user.
devices that don't respond because they are in a bad
state can be unplugged (if removeable).
built-in devices on built-in hubs tha
>perhaps i've been asleep at the swtch, but i don't recall seing writes
>on closed channels terminate programs with a note.
sys: write on closed pipe
mainly to kill off a pipeline when the thing at the end has finished.
i think that might be the only instance where a note is used.
Oberon takes advantage of a structured text representation
where both the interpretation and graphic representation
of particular elements is provided by Oberon modules.
One demonstration had a little animated cartoon character
that could be cut and pasted into another frame, where it
continued to
h% 9fs sources
srv tcp!sources.cs.bell-labs.com: mount failed: restricted remote address
virgin media changed my IP address overnight. reverse lookup gives a subdomain
of
virginmedia.com, but presumably it's the IP address that sources is restricting?
"The software architecture is simple — Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."
although most of the technology news reports i've seen today appear not to have
read the googleblog (or at least, not that far into it).
>Also, you don't have the scrollwheel buckling and rolling around as you try to
>mid-click.
i found that with nearly all the ones i tried, but
the small Gigaware wireless optical notebook mouse cat. number 26-284
from Radio Shack has a scrollwheel with enough resistance
that it doesn't do that, a
>I'm just not sure time is the right thing to measure.
it wasn't just time, but included other aspects such as accuracy.
``but i want to be slow AND, overall, inaccurate!''
>I think Tog's conclusions (the single set of studies put forth whenever this
>thing
>comes up) are poorly made ...
it turns out that there is rather older work that supports
much the same conclusion, which i probably saw mentioned in HCI Remixed,
since that's one i've read recently.
>The only drawback so far seems to be the fact that if one
>needs flexibility, then every file becomes a subdirectory.
>Not that it is scary or anything, but it smells too much
>of resource forks (or may be I'm just too easily scared).
it's the other way round: they ought to have represented
colle
>The Evolution of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.doc
it's not worth worrying about for that book (i think it's `Origin' not
`Evolution')
i am astounded it keeps resurfacing.
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