As of today, we have Inferno running on the Nexus S and the Nook
Color.
And naturally, the Nexus S has been discontinued. At least, I can't
get my hands on one anywhere in Canada. Anyone have a souce for an
unlocked Nexus S (preferably from a US online dealer, for reasons too
absurd to go
After the previous round of arguments about (native plan9) acme multi-line
window tags, did anyone ever come up with a patch that at least some
people were happy with?
--lyndon
P.S. Is there any point to keeping mailing list archives any more?
With every messsage including the history of every
ROFL! What I guess you don't know is you can more or less do this
without disassembling the Mac. Boot the Mac with the right keys pressed
(I forget which) and it will emulate a Firewire drive.
ROFL! What you don't know is (most) Macs no longer have Firewire
interfaces.
When non-plan9 people ask me this question I tell them to get an external
disk and use Time Machine.
I would tell it to Plan9 folks as well. There is no way to
recover from a catestrophic disk failure on a Mac using venti.
Two days ago I spent $137 on a 1TB external USB disk. I now have an
backup:
1. power down mac. remove hard drive.
2. stuff drive as one gigantic file into venti.
restore:
1. copy your backup onto drive
2. install hard drive. power up mac.
Disassembling the machine every night to back it up is not on.
how come you keep changing the parameters after you get
in-principle solutions? :-)
Ask the guys who make those crappy hard disk ball bearings.
They are the ones who keep changing the parameters :-P
Can anybody comment on this?
RFC3501 ยง6.4.4: the SEARCH command.
upas doesn't use it.
Actually we have since found that even scheduling archival
and temporary snapshots at different times isn't always
enough to prevent fossil from hanging during archival
snapshots.
What size of fossil and venti? Can you post details of how
the servers are set up? I.e. fossil/conf and
Isn't p9p POSIX enough?
It's a matter of laziness; I'd rather port venti to POSIX once rather
than port p9p to many things. There are just enough
platform-dependent bits in p9p to make it enough of an annoyance for
me to go the POSIX route.
How about a more complex venti that runs on a strict POSIX host? I
would really prefer to run my venti on my Solaris fileserver. ZFS for
this application lets me sleep better at night.
I'm half-way there, but the boat takes priority this month.
--lyndon
hang in there.
Ach! Ye of little Faithe!
1) Write drivers for obtuse RAID controllers.
or
2) Port venti to POSIX.
Hmm ... let me think about that for a minute ...
Time's up! Back to dealing with POSIX :-) And given enough
tequila, it can revert to almost pure ANSI C.
--lyndon
Isn't p9p venti good enough?
Nope. It only works where p9p works. I want code that will compile
on any POSIX-compliant host.
I was surprised to stumble across a handful of rc scripts in
/386/bin/aux. Shouldn't this directory contain only 386 binary
executables? With the exception of the vmware script, none of these
are specific to the 386 hardware platform in any way.
Shouldn't we have an /rc/bin/aux directory and do
to paraphrase russ, the bike shed is painted and the painter
has left.
And there's nothing worse than a fucking art critic.
Please don't touch the artwork.
Do work carefully amongst the artwork.
And never, ever, ask the artist for his motivation.
I've been using a gmail account with the usual access via a web
browser for quite a while.
Sometimes I get little angry when using it, for various reasons, often
due to the firefox's slowness to render the page (scrolling a longer
thread is often pain for me).
I'd like to ask you. Do you use
Jetway VIA C7 1.5GHz CN700
My primary terminal is an Epia-EX motherboard with a 1 GHz C3. It's
diskless so I can't speak for the IDE or SATA support, but video
(1920x1080) and network are fine. If the board you are looking at uses
the same (or similar) N/S-bridge chips you should be fine.
This seems to come up with every new generation of a new bus, such as
pci or lately pcie. It has a lot of limits and, eventually, people
just go with a fast network. For one thing, it doesn't grow that big
and, for another, error handling can be interesting.
Has anyone done up a driver for an
I don't see any meaning in Linux adopting some set of plan 9
commands...
Have you read the source code for their cat(1) ???
usually, when writting drafts for somebody else to review, its useful
to have line numbers printed at the beginning of each line.
How would you implement that in troff?
See /sys/doc/troff.ps (section 15 on page 26).
--lyndon
The driver says this about the '574:
// case 0x10d3:/* l */
// type = i82574; /* never heard of it */
// break;
I've heard of it: my Asus Z8NA-D6C motherboard has one. Is there any
history I should know about before I light
(As a side note, if anyone goes into rc(1)'s source to implement any of
this, please add a -- option (or similar) to the echo builtin while
you're there.
Echo is not a builtin, and for one possible solution see
/n/sources/contrib/lyndon/echon.c
the reason for the confusion, is that the localtime
applies the offset before applying the dstpairs.
(/sys/src/libc/port/ctime.c) i belive i tripped on this
when i did the work for the us zones.
Why this somewhat obscure format? Raw epoch (GMT) time() values seem
to be the obvious choice
if it weren't done this way, then the dstpairs would be
unique to the timezone. each timezone would require
a unique list of dstpairs.
The files are small (each will fit in a single fs block, for whatever
your favourite fs is), but the header line makes each one unique
anyway, so there's no
why don't you just pull the new zones from sources?
it's all fixed, and integrated.
Where was the slashdot announcement?!?
kfs is not used for standalone machines these days, so I suspose you
could say it is depricated for use as a primary file server.
I suspect kfs (not kenfs) is used on a whole lot of laptops these
days. I have four laptops in the house that have standalone kfs Plan
9s running under Parallels
i'm beginning to regret having fixed the time zones.
and i am thinking of moving to saskatchewan.
I have been attempting to in stall Plan 9 on a virtual machine(VirtualBox)
and cannot find the distribution on the ISO file.
Boot the ISO image in VirtualBox. That will present you with a
menu that gives you an option to run the installer.
i tried to send this off-list, but your zone has no mx record.
sorry to the rest of the list for spam.
And I tried a direct reply, but your MTA is convinced orthanc.ca has
no MX record. Which is odd since it most most certainly does. I've
noticed ndb/dns has been acting oddly lately, though.
i'll take another look. i thought i worked this out for the us timezones,
and while confusing, i thought everything was working.
Heh. Either it's endemic or my morning coding skills are fscked:
lyndon@frodo% tzdump Australia_West
WST WDT
Even stranger, newfie time is not making sense. The Newf's have
been half an hour off the rest of the world for ages. Yet:
lyndon@frodo% cat Canada_Newfoundland | tzdump
NST NDT
Sun Apr 26 02:00:00 GMT 1970Sun Oct 25 01:00:00 GMT 1970
Sun
Even stranger, newfie time is not making sense. The Newf's have
been half an hour off the rest of the world for ages. Yet:
lyndon@frodo% cat Canada_Newfoundland | tzdump
NST NDT
Sun Apr 26 02:00:00 GMT 1970Sun Oct 25 01:00:00 GMT 1970
Sun
My theory is that GNU tools were so bloated by design that they
realized that they couldn't write a decent man page for their tools
so they invented the info pages and the --help flag.
In fairness to info, you have to consider its history. The want was
to be able to present an online
i take this as another strike against info. the fact that one
sees that the editor's docs are 400+ pages, and there's no easy
way to cut that down to a man page, and yet they proceeded to
build bloatware to accomidate bloatware.
That's like blaming Mozilla because you choose to read Sarah
This is not new. Politicians are socialbots generating sentences from
a limited set of politically correct chunks (this means: that don't
make sense) and have, still, millions of followers... and cause millions
of deaths too...
Listen, just because we called an election today ... wait!
Am I the only person still an hour behind the PST-PDT shift?
I recall this happening last year, too ...
did you not copy the new US_Pacific to /adm/timezone/local?
Being in Canada_Pacific, no. I see an update is required.
Just now I am reading Unix Text Processing by Dale Dougherty and Tim
O'Reilly, a freely available book (pmartin proposes it as well). There
are several chapters on the topic, so perhaps I'll get what I want in
the end.
I was going to mention that one, but I figured it was so long out of
print
I have only hesitated over the way (as described in my original, 1st,
post) how references that *depend on physical placement* of certain
text are to be coped with. (As with my page headings; or---probably
even harder so that at least 2-runs of troff are
inevitable---references to page
He would get pretty exercised about keep-alives. Felt that it was not
the business of TCP to make these kinds of decisions. I can't remember
if he actually called them an abomination, but at the same time, one
was left with the feeling that he might have.
I'm sure he's called them worse than
Someone in the past few days alluded to a git port. I'll be buggered
if I can find the message in the list archives. Does this exist?
Where?
apic ids can be found in the madt table, from acpi, iirc.
Heh. You assume a correct ACPI BIOS implementation. The worst
offenders I've seen have been Intel-designed motherboards :-P
the madt table or the mp tables reflect a snaphot of *all*
the i/o apics and lapics in the system at the time when bios handed
control over to the operating system (sic.).
No it doesn't. That's the bug in the BIOS -- it screws up building
the table. I have an Intel mini-ITX board sitting in a
by definition, a bug in your bios doesn't change the specification,
True. But a specification that doesn't run the same way on any
two models of motherboard isn't much of one.
There are some newish fanless intel mini-itx motherboards about, anyone
had one of these boot plan9? I had poor results from the previous generation
due to unhelpful BIOS.
Try to get your hands on a C3-based board. They tend to predate much of
the ACPI crap that has infested the BIOS space
What exactly do you mean, PPP over USB?
Google PPP over USB. I've googled, red 9fans archive,
wiki and docs before posting here.
In theory, your 3G data stick should export a serial device interface,
and therefore usb/serial should map it to /dev/eiaUx/eiaUx (where x is
a small integer). (See
The documentation is on the wiki, such as it is, and in the 9fans
archives.
And /sys/doc/*. Read *everything* under that directory.
Does anyone have a copy of the 9doom code they could put up on
contrib?
I mean with support for say its every hardware part?
You can't even do that with UNIX these days :-p
thinking about it... why not just let stream() fail and let the program
decide if it makes sense to continue without it?
Exactly what I was thinking. If the program requires the semantics of
stream(), it should be able to reliably discover when they aren't
available.
Given the overlap between (DM|QT)EXCL, it's not clear to me which
of these is considered the authority for indicating exclusive access.
devusb.c plays with DMEXCL, devcons.c with QTEXCL. I'm assumed the
DMEXCL bit was magically getting propagated down to QTEXCL in
qid.type, but I'll be damned if
The purpose is allowing an spooling (store+forward) mail relay
to learn which addresses are not accepted by the actual maildrop
(which is connected by an uucp-link, so no direct smtp chat),
to get rid of the thousands silly error bounces from brute force
attacks on email addresses.
Very(!)
This requires the remote uucp site to give you a Bloom
filter with all the valid addresses inserted, but that seems
unavoidable. I don't know how the opposite-of-Bloom-filter
approach would work anyway.
One problem with this is handling wildcarded addresses. How do you indicate
(say)
i think the idea of spooling email is largely discredited.
It's not a spam avoidance trick. It's how I get around arbitrary
blockage of SMTP/submission port injection when I'm not sitting at
home. If you read your mail on a laptop, it's the easiest way around
all the ISP/Hotel/Public-WIFI
Tell the accepting site to strip +* from all the email addresses
before checking. There aren't that many cases like that.
There aren't many, but at least one that I care about exists. The
case is one-off throw away addresses. When I send a message, I
generate an address crypto-based on the
okay, there must be more to the story. why do you need crypto
secure burner email addresses to avoid spam?
If I could tell you that, I wouldn't need them.
/n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/draw.c
Works great -- thanks.
For ages I've run diskless terminals under Parallels, and aux/vga would
quite cheerfully resize the Parallels window to match anything I told it.
Recently I had to migrate from Parallels to Fusion. Resizing doesn't work any
more.
Furthermore, I'm buggered if I can programmatically figure out
[ Let me try again, this time hitting Post vs |fmt :-) ]
For ages I've run diskless terminals under Parallels, and aux/vga would
quite cheerfully resize the Parallels window to match anything I told it.
Recently I had to migrate from Parallels to Fusion. Resizing doesn't
work any more.
Oh, yeah, lets all learn about namespaces and the counterintuitive
things they do and don't do, and compiling and everything to do when
it goes wrong, and a billion other things JUST to save devs having to
work out a good solution!
Look, if you're too damned lazy (or stupid) to give
if you want to
find how the modifications to /386/lib/libc.a, you know where that
is. if you bind 100 packages on top of /386/lib, it becomes necessary
to deconstruct namespaces continually. the abstraction of namespace
starts to break down.
Dump deals with 'physical' paths; you have to
you've got to be able to get at the history to begin
with. *that's* the problem. lyndon's right, history
doesn't work even on the usual union directories.
compounding the problem doesn't seem like the
right way to go.
Should history work on /env, too?
Dump is tool for a specific type of
what's the fileserver behind /bin?
Whatever you want it to be. That's the beauty of Plan 9.
But if you can't remember how you organized your shit, George
Carlin has a number of self-help records ;-)
You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
For 3rd party stuff, I put the source tree in /usr/lyndon/src/foo,
adjust the mkfiles to install in /usr/lyndon/bin/$objtype, and say
'mk install'. I keep a shadow man tree under /usr/lyndon/lib/man,
and then bind it all on top of the
also this method is unwieldy with a many user
system.
It is? Why? If a user wants personal source and binaries, they set
it up. It doesn't impact me one way or the other.
For system-wide stuff I still keep the code in /usr/lyndon/src, but
adjust the mkfiles to install directly into the
even on a single user system, doesn't it
suck when you can find a few programs that
are in your own bin?
Sorry, I can't parse that this early in the morning.
sorry. forgot when you're running as the hostowner.
I still don't get it. Why would finding things I put in my own bin
suck?
you would not find them. the hostowner, unless that's you,
would be unwise to bind your bin into /bin.
They're *personal* binaries. The hostowner doesn't need them.
in the end everything is easy for those who know
how to do it.
And god forbid people actually learn anything.
multiply by several levels of bindings and it will become
a large mental burden to remember what's available where.
Practice says otherwise. The only change to the binds since I set
it up (years ago) was adding $home/bin/rcaux-/bin/aux last fall.
why do you presume i haven't tried this?
Because you claim it doesn't work. I have evidence it does work.
Arm wrestle at 5? :-)
You should also add:
http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s
Which returns 1062 lines of HTML+Javascript, completely unreadable
in Abaco.
The irony is stunning.
--lyndon
I have three native machines:
Supermicro 5015A-H w/500GB IDE: fossil/venti/auth/dhcpd/tftpd
Supermicro 5015A-H (diskless): CPU server
Via EPIA-EK (1GHz C3 Eden-N processor) (diskless): terminal
When I move back onto the boat I will be adding another CPU server
with a whack of serial ports
(because it supplies the correct info for non-Plan 9 hosts).
What info did your hosts need that Plan 9's dhcpd didn't supply?
And there just aren't
enough Plan 9 developers to produce alternatives.
Then there cannot possibly be enough to port the auto* abortion.
But there ought to be a sane
alternative and it should not be anywhere as complex.
There is: it's called POSIX.
surely your joking, mr. nerenberg!
Nope. Over the past 10 years I can only think of one or two projects
I did that required platform-specific optimizations outside of POSIX.
Just goes to show why I'm asking for some consolidation :-)
Mines better!!! :-)
I really think this idea that duplication of things in contrib is bad,
is bad (or just a red herring).
For ports of big applications (python, say), the amount of work involved
is going to self-limit the number of ports right up front. And the ones
that do make it will self-select based on the
While we're talking about ndb ... what's the status of the ipv6= tag?
Last week I was setting up IPv6 on a network and was adding
ipv6=2001:... entries in ndb as per the manpages. I lost the better
part of a day trying to figure out why the records weren't being
propagated to the DNS
It's still undecided how to best cope with a mixed v4 and v6
world. I don't expect the ipv6 attribute to go away.
I like the new (to me, anyway) ip= behaviour. parseip() and isv4()
provide everything that's needed at the C level to distinguish the
two. ndb/dns already does this right thing
using awk is still faster
For the curious and lazy ... why is that?
well, you can make it explicit.. path=(/bin)
Which really should be the default, or at least path=(/bin .).
Putting '.' at the front means that wherever you're cd'ed into a
remote directory, every command you run is 9Peeing off to the remote
host looking for a command that's most likely not
Okay, but then (as an admin) you have to know which apps have
to be recompiled. For a small system this might be okay, but
that doesnt scale well ;-o
Plan 9 _is_ a small system.
why does being able to switch on any enum trump
the ability to define constants without #define?
Because enum's legacy is that of a 'first class' int-like
object, which can be subject to the usual set of int-like
operations. switch() is one of those. #define isn't.
if you try, sizeof(foo)==4,
Has anyone cooked up some acid to track leaking file descriptors
(ala leak for memory)?
--lyndon
Has anyone considered / tried to port the Heiroom version of troff?
Has anyone any comment about why doing so would be a bad idea?
No sense tossing the baby overboard. But it's worth examining the changes
the Heirloom folks have made to see what would make sense to backport. They've
certainly
cat /proc/$pid/fd
I already know the bloody thing is open :-P
I just wondered if someone had come up with some glue to intercept
open()/close()/dup()/etc and track the fd's in an acid list, or
something similar.
Seems to me you should be worried about both.
let's not get carried away. the odds of accidental
collision are 1 2^80.
And being worried about both leads to the choice of SHA-1 as a suitable
algorithm. If we weren't worried about it I'm sure some bright light would
have picked ROT-13 for
I finally got around to watching Russ' Acid talk, but the video
I have end about 26 minutes in -- just into the discussion about
kernel debugging. I'm not sure if this was a problem with the source
video, or just my copy, which looks like:
lyn...@frodo% ls -l IWP*; sha1sum IWP*
--rw-r--r-- M 51
Given a foofs which serves the writable file /mnt/foo, is there
any reliable way to distinguish between
% cat /mnt/foo
type some
text and quit
^D
%
and
% cat /mnt/foo
type some
text, then change your mind and hit DEL
%
Russ says:
i don't believe these two cases can be distinguished.
in particular i think you'd only see the Tflush if the first
Twrite was still in flight when you typed DEL. assuming
the first write had completed before DEL, the two scenarios
are indistinguishable other than the different
From the inspections of Cinap and I, albeit a while back,
Erik's FS does not take NVR from floppy.
So is it worth it to try to nail down a driver that can talk to at
least some of the on-motherboard NVRAM present on today's crop of
x86/amd64 motherboards?
There is anecdotal evidence of past
Do you think you'd recommend Parallels over VirtualBox? I've not tried plan
9 on VirtualBox as I usually opt to run it on real hardware where I can, and
9vx or drawterm to connect.
Forget about VirtualBox. It's nowhere near ready for prime time on
MacOS or Solaris. The only thing I've ever
The Wiki's supported hardware list is getting quite moldy.
I've created a new page for known broken hardware, working on
the theory that people pissed off are more likely to document
breakage than the blissful are their success.
It's linked from the supported hardware page.
--lyndon
i believe that richard miller has the intel D945GCLF2
working via some careful hacking. (i.e. a hand-coded
mp table.)
It was easier to buy something that actually worked. As for that
Intel piece of shit, I'm going to blend it during the transition
to 2010.
--lyndon
i think it would be more valuable to explain exactly what's
not working and point to some of the workarounds, if they exist.
What's not working is the ACPI component of the BIOS. The P9 boot
fails very early on (right after E820 I think). FreeBSD runs, but
something in the ACPI code wakes up
du -a | awk '-F\t' '{print $2}' -
All this nonsense because the dogmatists refuse to accept
/n/sources/contrib/cross/walk.c into the distribution.
what seems more important to me is a way to unlimit the size
of argv. otherwise we'll need to go down the hideous xargs path.
How often have you run up against the current limit? I've yet to hit
it in anything other than contrived tests. And even those took work.
find and walk are about
(I want the data outside the limits to be ignored...)
What am I doing wrong?
Not filtering your input data? grap's only intent is to typeset the
data you feed it. 'coord' sets the ranges for the graph scales. It
doesn't filter the data -- that's your job. (As a typesetting design
device I
linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
... not sure of the others.
I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
be done. These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
Windows Server and installation tools fu.
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