Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

> On Jun 25, 2018, at 5:33 PM, Ethan A. Gardener  wrote:
> 
> 
> I picked up an idea from microapl.com, workspaces.  Saving system
> state is one of my goals for my OS, and the concept of workspaces
> pertaining to separate tasks keeps popping up when I get ideas.  For
> those who don't know, it's this:
> 

Lisp and Smalltalk both have similar thing,  dump whole image (or "world") to 
disk and load to memory next time.

The GUI of Lisp Machine and Squeak looks elegant, of course Rio is very elegant 
too :-)

* https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html
* https://squeak.org/

Regards,
Yubao Liu

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

// seems this email was lost according to http://marc.info/?l=9fans, send 
again, sorry if duplicated.

On Jun 24, 2018, at 5:12 PM, 刘宇宝  wrote:

Very like your comment, thanks! On macOS I mainly use iTerm2 + VIM + SSH + 
Firefox, if Plan 9 had a decent native web browser I may use 9front for serious 
daily work. I don't care much native app stack because I mainly do 
Python/Java/Node on remote Linux server.

I hate trackpad, it hurts my wrists, I just got a cheap vertical mouse, may buy 
Evoluent mouse later. Meanwhile, I was wondering whether trackball will heal my 
wrists more.

Recently I read Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant", I felt 
pity, and I was wondering what the operating system would look like in the 
future,  here is my stupid optimistic predication:

• Server hardware will become extreme powerful,  TB DRAM, non-volatile 
memory, NVMe disk, 100Gb ethernet, the paradigm of separate cpu server, file 
server, (a little fat) terminals will come back to be mainstream,  network of 
piles of cheap PCs will go away.
• Linux，even BSD，became the underlying device driver and "BIOS", this 
is almost the current situation, Linux KVM, Xen + Linux dom0 hide details of 
hardware. This layer takes care maximum hardware support and raw performance.
• *Distributed* operating systems above KVM/Xen will step into a period 
of great development, hardware support and maximum raw performance are not top 
priorities, *OS native* fault tolerance, simple and clear distributed process 
scheduling, easy and consistent IPC/RPC API will win, Google Kubernetes will 
die. Many ideas of Plan 9 will revive, just like memory garbage collecting 
revived after about 30 years.

Regards,
Yubao Liu

> 
> From: 9fans-boun...@9fans.net <9fans-boun...@9fans.net> on behalf of Rui 
> Carmo 
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 5:06 PM
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Subject: Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
>  
> I’m late to the thread, but this seems like a good point to step in.
> 
> I’m using plan9 on a quad-core Raspberry Pi as a sort of universal terminal 
> to manage some of my home machines, and recently deleted the 9front VM I had 
> on my home KVM server because even though the programming model and Go 
> support were nice, most of my day-to-day work is on cloud solutions and there 
> was no easy way to make those co-exist with Plan9 usage.
> 
> There were a few discussions in this thread around dev stacks, browsers, 
> etc., and my $0.02 on that is that I could probably work in Plan9 on a daily 
> basis _if_ it had a usable (i.e., all the warts including JavaScript and 
> fonts) web browser, but that the lack of alignment (intended or otherwise) 
> with Linux tools and app stacks (SSH, Node, Python, Java) would make it very 
> painful.
> 
> Running a remote browser (which is what I do often in that Pi) sort of works, 
> but you never get the full benefits you’d get with a native process. And lack 
> of access to modern app stacks renders the platform unattractive for 
> mainstream development work.
> 
> But what killed it for me was the need for chording (mouse or keys). Using a 
> modern trackpad on a MacBook or Surface device is a quantum leap beyond using 
> a mouse for general use, and the lack of a modernised Rio with enough 
> thoughtful design to overcome the differences in philosophy is the first 
> barrier to continued usage.
> 
> Acme is something I miss on occasion, but modern GUI editors compensate in 
> other ways (at the expense of resource usage, etc., but with a massive boost 
> in productivity for me). Also, I’m typing this on an iMac 5K with nearly 
> unmatched font rendering and legibility (the only thing that comes close is 
> the Surface Pro alongside it). Visuals matter a great deal.
> 
> There is an unmatchable degree of purity in Plan9, but (even though the 
> diehards will stick their ground and claim it’s perfect to the exclusion of 
> other modern comforts) to coexist successfully it has to provide more 
> affordances.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> R.
> 
> > On 14 Jun 2018, at 04:53, 刘宇宝  wrote:
> > 
> > Compared to "not for you", "don't care",  "intend to not be successful", I 
> > like more the topic of cat-v irc channel on freenode set by aiju:  "fun 
> > fact: you can use multiple operating systems at the same time".
> > 
> > Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'm still curious 
> > its upper bound for a sensible daily usage,  and the best practice from you 
> > happy experienced Plan 9 users.
> > 
> > I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple Mail, 
> > iPhone Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail,  these emai

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

> I'd also add ctrl-x/c/v, and perhaps a prefix key to enter control codes.

> (I guess alt-x  works already, but I know the keys.)

Some days ago I wanted to input "\r" in Rio term window, spent about half an 
hour to figure out what the prefix key was, or some special syntax in rc,  
finally I gave up,  used "Ctrl-m" instead.

Regards,
Yubao Liu


From: 9fans-boun...@9fans.net <9fans-boun...@9fans.net> on behalf of Ethan A. 
Gardener 
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:11 PM
To: 9fans@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Mart Zirnask wrote:
> On 21/06/2018, Ethan A. Gardener  wrote:
> >... I no longer have a desk of
> > the right proportions to make mouse use comfortable, and can no longer bend
> > over a laptop for hours on end, (a Thinkpad with 3 buttons,) text editing in
> > Plan 9 has become unpleasant. I could patch Samterm and Rio to make it more
> > comfortable, but it's not worth it.
>
> Would you mind elaborating on these ideas?

Not at all. The first thing I would do is make it so Samterm keeps Sam's snarf 
buffer in sync with Rio's. I know it's sometimes useful to have the two 
separate buffers, but I so often want to copy between the editor and other 
windows that for me, it's an immense pain. An alternate, possibly better idea 
would be to add commands to Sam, equivalent to >cat>/dev/snarf and 

> Something I've been thinking along the same lines:
> Inferno's shell allows one to add custom buttons to a shell window.
> See more here:
> http://debu.gs/entries/interlude-inferno-at-work

A fun idea. :) Acme is similarly flexible, of course, and my Forth junk 
definitely will be.

Remarking on parts of that article:

"After that, starting up Inferno and hitting command-F (to run Inferno 
full-screen) makes the Mac look like an Inferno terminal. Perfect! I can lie to 
myself about what’s actually running on the computer."
This is what I did with my Mac. :) I don't hate its native interface but it is 
a bit dumb. Before I ever started using Plan 9 on it, I tried Linux but it was 
more hassle than necessary, and some hardware didn't work. I put OS X back on, 
(10.4, one of the best versions,) used its control panel, wifi setup, and 
nothing else except the X server full-screen. It was the best of both worlds, I 
loved it! :) Later, I variously ran Inferno, P9P Acme, and drawterm 
full-screen, usually with an external mouse. (It doesn't do multi-touch.)

>
> This could be used to add shortcuts to common/more complicated text
> editing tasks in Inferno's sh + sam -d.
> I'm not sure if this would free one from using a 3-button mouse, though.

Didn't someone praise modern trackpads in this thread? In the dim and distant 
past, (at least a whole year ago,) I recall a multitouch patch appearing for 
P9P. I think it entirely eliminated the need for a 3-button mouse. I'm sure it 
could be reasonably applied to Inferno, and to Drawterm if it hasn't already.

--
I regret nothing except my new-found capitalization policies.

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

> On Jun 15, 2018, at 5:12 AM, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> There is a middling list of improvements I would like, some needing
>> hard work (Go's Shiny),
> what exactly do you mean?

It's said Go doesn't official support Plan 9 any more,  maybe I'm wrong...

> 
>> some in  the middle (proper SSH functionality,
>> native to Plan 9 - I haven't had a chance to mess with Go's options)
> already done by cinap.
> easy, native, and without any broken go stuff.

Do you mean /sys/src/cmd/ssh.c ? If not, where can I obtain it?

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

Compared to "not for you", "don't care",  "intend to not be successful", I like 
more the topic of cat-v irc channel on freenode set by aiju:  "fun fact: you 
can use multiple operating systems at the same time".

Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'm still curious its 
upper bound for a sensible daily usage,  and the best practice from you happy 
experienced Plan 9 users.

I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple Mail, iPhone 
Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail,  these emails went through 
Postfix and Exim servers, probably on Linux.

In great harmony, we use kinds of operating system and kinds of software on 
them.

Regards,
Yubao Liu

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:53 AM, N. S. Montanaro  wrote:
> 
> I think a lot of people discover Plan 9 and want it to be something it isn’t, 
> rather than stumble upon it out of necessity. As the FQA says, “Plan 9 is not 
> for you."

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

[sorry to cross post to 9front, hope somebody there can double check]

Uh, is the mailing list down? I can't find any new emails after 5/14 at 
https://marc.info/?l=9fans,  
also can't connect to http://mail.9fans.net/.

> On Jun 11, 2018, at 2:14 PM, 刘宇宝  wrote:
> 
> Yesterday night I finished the sixth article of my Plan 9 adventure series at 
> Zhihu, a Chinese Quora like site, https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/c_185117725
> 
> I feel many things are interesting and special, such as Rio(simple and 
> beautiful, love it), Acme(so easy to extend), 9p(simple and clean), rc(right 
> shell), but I'm still not very used to heavy use of mouse.
> 
> I find a bunch of game emulators, instruction simulators, fs servers, 
> incomplete POSIX environment, all seem very old, this makes me wondering 
> whether anybody still seriously uses(or used?) Plan 9 for serious work, what 
> software they frequently use, what software is most lack of.
> 
> For my daily work and hobby, I use macOS for Desktop and Linux for Server,  
> most frequently used softwares include:
> 
> * iTerm2+Vim+Spacemacs:   I can use Acme + rc instead.
> * SSH:Plan9 has an old SSH client.
> * Perl, Python, NodeJS: Probably I can't get latest versions and enough 
> support for their C extensions, it's basically fine, I can edit it with Acme 
> and run on Linux.
> * VirtualBox: I haven't played vmx.
> * Firefox:I heard there is an old version running on X.  Abaco 
> and Mothra are not enough to render correctly most (crappy) web pages.
> * Apple Mail: haven't played upasfs, I guess this is enough.
> * Wechat: certainly not exist on Plan 9, it's fine,  it doesn't exist on 
> Linux too.
> * Video Player:  don't know any on Plan 9.
> 
> So far, seems the most lacking software for me is a good enough Web browser.
> 
> Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't care whether Plan 9 will win the market, I'm 
> just curious whether Plan 9 can still be used seriously.
> 
> Thanks,
> Yubao Liu
> 
> 
> 

[9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[刘宇宝]

Yesterday night I finished the sixth article of my Plan 9 adventure series at 
Zhihu, a Chinese Quora like site, https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/c_185117725

I feel many things are interesting and special, such as Rio(simple and 
beautiful, love it), Acme(so easy to extend), 9p(simple and clean), rc(right 
shell), but I'm still not very used to heavy use of mouse.

I find a bunch of game emulators, instruction simulators, fs servers, 
incomplete POSIX environment, all seem very old, this makes me wondering 
whether anybody still seriously uses(or used?) Plan 9 for serious work, what 
software they frequently use, what software is most lack of.

For my daily work and hobby, I use macOS for Desktop and Linux for Server,  
most frequently used softwares include:

* iTerm2+Vim+Spacemacs: I can use Acme + rc instead.
* SSH:  Plan9 has an old SSH client.
* Perl, Python, NodeJS: Probably I can't get latest versions and enough support 
for their C extensions, it's basically fine, I can edit it with Acme and run on 
Linux.
* VirtualBox:   I haven't played vmx.
* Firefox:  I heard there is an old version running on X.  Abaco 
and Mothra are not enough to render correctly most (crappy) web pages.
* Apple Mail:   haven't played upasfs, I guess this is enough.
* Wechat:   certainly not exist on Plan 9, it's fine,  it doesn't exist on 
Linux too.
* Video Player:  don't know any on Plan 9.

So far, seems the most lacking software for me is a good enough Web browser.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't care whether Plan 9 will win the market, I'm 
just curious whether Plan 9 can still be used seriously.

Thanks,
Yubao Liu

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

Thank you very much, these combinations do work well!

A little supplement,  Command-z works in acme but not 9term, anyway, that's 
fine, I can embed term in acme.

> On May 10, 2018, at 8:18 PM, cherry  wrote:
> 
> 
> I tried p9p Acme on Mac OS X, seems the mouse button emulation with trackpad 
> is broken, p9p Acme doesn't response to Shift + Secondary Click,  this is 
> probably my problem, won't play it now until I'm more familiar with 9front in 
> Virtualbox.
> 
> Alt+Click does a middle click (button 2), Command+Click does a right click 
> (button 3). Also, Command+Z does what's expected.
> 
>  

[9fans] What's the fastest way to input command in Acme?

[刘宇宝]

[[ I got perfect answers  to my original questions about undo, the another 
questions is probably neglected,  so I split another thread.]]


In VIM, I can input ...comand, in Acme I have to move cursor to 
command area and click, input command, press ,  click middle mouse button 
on the highlighted command, is this the fastest way to input command in Acme?

I'm not arguing Vim is better, I agree some operations are faster in Vim and 
some faster in Acme,  I just want to know the most efficient way in Acme.

Thanks in advance for your kindly help!

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

Yes, "win rc" embeds a rc shell window in Acme, I can undo in the shell window, 
 that's perfect!

But the edit in tag line can't be undo,  I find the Undo command has no effect 
if it's on the top main tag line or the column tag line,  it only works on 
window tag line and only undo editing in the text window.

I tried p9p Acme on Mac OS X, seems the mouse button emulation with trackpad is 
broken, p9p Acme doesn't response to Shift + Secondary Click,  this is probably 
my problem, won't play it now until I'm more familiar with 9front in Virtualbox.

Thanks a lot!

> On May 10, 2018, at 7:02 AM, Raingloom <raingl...@protonmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Even if you are not in a `win` window (eg. if you are in an +Error one) you 
> can use Undo. Sometimes Acme doesn't actually put Undo in the tag line, but 
> if you type it out yourself it will still work. Well, at least on p9p Acme, 
> I'm not sure about Plan 9 Acme.
> 
> 
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> 
> On May 9, 2018 5:40 PM, 刘宇宝 <liuyu...@yingmi.cn> wrote:
> 
>> Great thanks for your idea, file oriented design is very flexible! The 
>> prompt function may be used to automatically backup the output of previous 
>> command, a poor man's undo buffer :-D
>> 
>> I tried to execute "rc" in Acme, seems Acme always execution command with 
>> /dev/null as stdin, I can't embed an interactive rc session into Acme and 
>> leverage the undo buffer of Acme window.
>> 
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> hi.
>>> 
>>> i think it is humour of a kind.
>>> 
>>> i cannot speak for acme but rio has no undo buffer, so what you ask for is 
>>> not possible.
>>> 
>>> you can save a windows content (including history). e.g. /dev/wsys/11/text 
>>> /tmp (assuming the window you want is number 11, cat /dev/winid to get the 
>>> current windows id)
>>> 
>>> -Steve
>>> 
>>> On 9 May 2018, at 11:55, 刘宇宝 liuyu...@yingmi.cn wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> I miss much the universal shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> macOS, does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
>>>>> 
>>>>> also automatically provisioned, free of charge.
>>>> 
>>>> Wow, is this kind of humor like the picture at the bottom of 
>>>> http://fqa.9front.org/ ?
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not a troll, I wrote several articles to introduce Plan 9 some days 
>>>> ago, I'm seriously asking :-D
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe I already got the answer @_@
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Yubao Liu
> 
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

Excellent! This indeed gives an rc shell window embed into Acme editor, and I 
can undo editing in it,  right what I want!

Thank you very much!

> On May 10, 2018, at 6:37 AM, Chris McGee <newton...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There’s a ‘win’ command you can executed in acme to get an interactive rc 
> shell window.
> 
>> On May 9, 2018, at 11:40 AM, 刘宇宝 <liuyu...@yingmi.cn> wrote:
>> 
>> Great thanks for your idea,  file oriented design is very flexible! The 
>> prompt function may be used to automatically backup the output of previous 
>> command,  a poor man's undo buffer :-D
>> 
>> I tried to execute "rc" in Acme, seems Acme always execution command with 
>> /dev/null as stdin, I can't embed an interactive rc session into Acme and 
>> leverage the undo buffer of Acme window.
>> 
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Steve Simon <st...@quintile.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> hi.
>>> 
>>> i think it is humour of a kind.
>>> 
>>> i cannot speak for acme but rio has no undo buffer, so what you ask for is 
>>> not possible.
>>> 
>>> you can save a windows content (including history). e.g. /dev/wsys/11/text 
>>> /tmp (assuming the window you want is number 11, cat /dev/winid to get the 
>>> current windows id)
>>> 
>>> -Steve
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9 May 2018, at 11:55, 刘宇宝 <liuyu...@yingmi.cn> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
>>>>>> macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
>>>>> To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
>>>>> also automatically provisioned, free of charge. 
>>>> 
>>>> Wow, is this kind of humor like the picture at the bottom of 
>>>> http://fqa.9front.org/ ?
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not a troll,  I wrote several articles to introduce Plan 9 some days 
>>>> ago, I'm seriously asking :-D
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe I already got the answer @_@
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Yubao Liu
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

Great thanks for your idea,  file oriented design is very flexible! The prompt 
function may be used to automatically backup the output of previous command,  a 
poor man's undo buffer :-D

I tried to execute "rc" in Acme, seems Acme always execution command with 
/dev/null as stdin, I can't embed an interactive rc session into Acme and 
leverage the undo buffer of Acme window.

> On May 9, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Steve Simon <st...@quintile.net> wrote:
> 
> hi.
> 
> i think it is humour of a kind.
> 
> i cannot speak for acme but rio has no undo buffer, so what you ask for is 
> not possible.
> 
> you can save a windows content (including history). e.g. /dev/wsys/11/text 
> /tmp (assuming the window you want is number 11, cat /dev/winid to get the 
> current windows id)
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> On 9 May 2018, at 11:55, 刘宇宝 <liuyu...@yingmi.cn> wrote:
> 
>>>> I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
>>>> macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
>>> To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
>>> also automatically provisioned, free of charge. 
>> 
>> Wow, is this kind of humor like the picture at the bottom of 
>> http://fqa.9front.org/ ?
>> 
>> I'm not a troll,  I wrote several articles to introduce Plan 9 some days 
>> ago, I'm seriously asking :-D
>> 
>> Maybe I already got the answer @_@
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Yubao Liu
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

I often messed the output of previous command by accident, either by typing or 
mouse chords to cut or paste, then I can't copy original text :-(

ACME focuses the window under mouse cusor by default, I also often wrongly edit 
the tag line...

Indeed need some time to get used to it.

> On May 9, 2018, at 7:45 PM, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> rio has no knowledge of the past, you cannot undo there, though i
> agree this can create problems for people coming from other platforms
> that lack the ability to edit former output and not just the prompt.
> 

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

>> I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
>> macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
>> 
> 
> Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
> To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
> also automatically provisioned, free of charge. 

Wow, is this kind of humor like the picture at the bottom of 
http://fqa.9front.org/ ?

I'm not a troll,  I wrote several articles to introduce Plan 9 some days ago, 
I'm seriously asking :-D

Maybe I already got the answer @_@

Thanks,
Yubao Liu

[9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[刘宇宝]

Hi all,

Recently I started an adventure to 9front and found Plan 9 very 
interesting.  I have thoroughly read the FQA and manual pages at 
9front.org, and searched the web, but still don't know how to undo wrong 
typing in Rio shell window and Acme editor's tag line,  I'm surprised 
and not so used to the facts that:


* I can edit the output of a command in shell window, no way to undo

* I can change or delete the tags for Acme editor and its column, no way 
to undo,   although the tags for Acme window can't be edited.


I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?



And one more question about Acme: how to quickly enter command? In VIM, 
I can enter ...comand, in Acme I have to move cursor to 
command area and click, input command, press ,  click middle mouse 
button on the highlighted command, is this the fastest way to input 
command in Acme?



Thanks,

Yubao Liu