Re: [9fans] openat()

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

Depending on the implementation of the file system, openat vs open can be more efficient if there’s a lot of metadata locking for file creation.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 6, 2024, at 1:36 PM, ron minnich  wrote:openat gives you the effect of 'cd path; open file' without having to cd. I don't see a lot of benefit to it unless you're opening a lot of files at that path. My first reaction, assuming you have a lot of files in that directory, was something likebind /dir /n/x and then just open /n/x/file... for a lot of files. This would work for any system call that takes a path.The question I had was, can I get the benefit of *at without doing what linux is doing, namely, for all system calls with a path, make an '...at' version.I am guessing so, though I'm not sure it's as efficient.On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 8:19 PM  wrote:My two cents on this:

What you _would_ want for this would be the ability to walk from the existing fd, however the limits of 9p walk make this a bit impossible to implement in a great way in my opinion. From walk(5):

The fid must represent a directory unless zero path name elements(for just cloning the fid) are specified. The fid must be valid in the current session and must not have been opened for I/O by an open or create message.

Since not every fid is eligible for being walked from, in order to implement opanat() in any way that would be better than just batching the fd2path and open would be to keep a "last directory" associated, like what we do with the string used to open it. Also worth mentioning that fd2path is not without its own problems, it's possible that the namespace has changed since the file has been opened so the same path may not work the second time. So tagging the last directory Chan would be "more correct", but I am not sure how useful this is.

Answering some other comments made:As I understand it from the rationale section on the
 linux man page, the call exists to avoid a race condition between 
checking that a directory exists and doing something to a path 
containing it. An additional motivator is providing the effect of 
additional current working directories notably for Linux threads (which 
presumably don't have their own. I think 'threads'  (processes that 
share memory) on Plan 9 do???).Each process has it's own current working directory:

% pwd
/home/moody
% @{cd /}
% pwd
% /home/moody
This is all based on the assumption that holding a file/directory open keeps it alive and in existence... which on Plan 9, I think it doesn't, does it? As I understand it, remove can remove a file or directory that is open, which is not like UNIX/Linux...
Depends on the file server implementation, I find that for more synthetic files they are indeed kept alive as long there is someone with a reference to the fid.
This is identifiable if all the cleanup happens on clunks(destroyfid in lib9p), which only happen when a fid's refcount hits zero.

For non-synthetic or more "disk" file servers the behavior can differ. Cwfs does not keep the data around, readers that attempt to read a deleted file, even if they already have a reference open to it will result in a phase error. However 9front's ramfs keeps the data around.

My test for this was as follows:win1% echo 'something' >/tmp/testwin2% win1% rm /tmp/test
# observe the error(if any) on win2So you really can't assume either case.Thanks,
moodyP.S.I apologize for the formatting, it seems my emails are not making it to the list when I attempt to send them from my mail server so I had to copy this response in to the web form.  I would like to figure out why if possible.

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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

Or you could just run 9front?Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 24, 2024, at 10:48 AM, alex...@posteo.de wrote:
Hello everyone,I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is supported by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models?9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily transferable to 9legacy?Many thanks in advance!Best regards, alex

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

I use a big heavy trackball. Kensington pro trackball is pricey but you get 
four buttons and a scroll ring.

Got my first one well over 10 years ago and it’s still my daily driver. I have 
a second wireless one on a Mac. The wired one is better overall if you can get 
them. The wireless one can work with a USB dongle (tiny) or Bluetooth.

Again, they’re a bit expensive but I love the four quadrant buttons too much 
and this thing has survived moving across the country a few times with my less 
than wonderful packing skills.

Lots of great advice in this thread though! Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 3:04 AM, adr  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote:
> 
>> I use a Kensington Expert which I guess falls into the big
> 
> That's funny, it's the very same I was looking at.
> 
> aliexpress.com/item/1005001848991454.html
> 
>> The scrollwheel thing is pretty nice too.
> 
> Three button mice with lateral scrollwheel are even harder to
> find. That's why I ended up with this cheap one:
> 
> aliexpress.com/item/404785639.html
> 
> It's not so bad, the plastic feels a little cheaper than one from
> hp or ibm but cost less than half the price... and it is very
> accurate, really.  It enters sleep mode to save battery (you can't
> disable this) and the only way to wake it is clicking one of the
> buttons (not the wheel). Now the funny part: it sends the click to
> the host. A nightmare.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback,
> adr.

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

> On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
> And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide 
> spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD license

For some people it’s because they didn’t have a math coprocessor and Linux 
didn’t need one. For others it was the AT lawsuit.

I haven’t ever heard the compiler tool chain was a big reason, but I’d be 
interested to hear your perspective here. GCC can produce code of any license.
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Re: [9fans] Breaking up long lines in sam into more manageable ones

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 26, 2021, at 12:01 PM, fwrm via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, 25 August 2021, at 9:31 PM, David Leimbach wrote:
>> Try in the tagline 
>> Edit ,|fold -s -w80
>> Highlight it and middle click it.
> 
> Yeah but that's acme not sam.

Oh yeah! Sorry….

> 
> You can do: ,|your_cmd
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Breaking up long lines in sam into more manageable ones

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

Try in the tagline 
Edit ,|fold -s -w80
Highlight it and middle click it.




Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 8:20 AM, revcomni...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I would like to be able to break up long lines in sam in a way similar to the 
> way I break them up in ed. For ed, I rely on the external command !fold -s 
> -w80 %.
> 
> This did not work for me in sam. What would be the best way to achieve this 
> in sam? And is there a format line(s) command I could use? 
> 
> Many thanks. 
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] fork of a fork of Inferno that runs on Mac OS amd64

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

No problem!

It seems acme does work ok, but it uses XQuartz.

It’s been so long since I’ve used inferno I’ve forgotten how to get started!

Dave


> On Jul 30, 2021, at 12:39 PM, Joseph Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Good job friend. Thanks for doing this.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:26 AM leimy2k via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>> 
>> https://github.com/Leimy/9ferno-leimy has the crawling phase of a port of 
>> Inferno that will run on modern Mac OS.
>> 
>> So far - no GUI as I wanted to just get it working to start, and I'm sharing 
>> it in case folks want to help out.
>> 
>> And I really mean that... I've done some things that I don't think are 
>> great, like renaming the panic function to avoid a name collision with some 
>> system headers.
>> 
>> I based the work from the OpenBSD amd64 emu port here: 
>> git://git.9front.org/plan9front/9ferno, and my intention is to get the 
>> changes cleaned up, get the GUI working (maybe port over the drawterm stuff 
>> from the 9front drawterm) etc.
>> 
>> If you try to use it now, just know that backspace/delete will exit the emu, 
>> and you'll want ctrl-h to backspace instead.
>> 
>> I did very minimal testing but ndb/dnsquery was working.
>> 
>> - Dave
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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[David Leimbach]

Yup

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:17 PM, Rob Pike robp...@gmail.com wrote:

 It's pointless to complain about the size of hello world. It's not a
 real program. In Go's case it's larger than a C binary because the
 libraries (and the presence of a runtime) are capable of much more
 under the covers, but by the time you write a real program in Go
 you'll find the ratio of Go binary to C binary isn't nearly so large;
 the incremental cost to the binary of a Go source file compared to a C
 Go file is negligible.
 
 A house is much heavier than a tent, but it also has a much stronger 
 foundation.
 
 -rob
 

Re: [9fans] iwp9 8e 31-oct — 2-nov 2013

[David Leimbach]

Where? How?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:23 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:

 this is your monthly iwp9 spam!
 
 it's not too early to register.  i'll try to get
 a special iwp9 rate this week.
 
 - erik
 

Re: [9fans] new fork?

[David Leimbach]

I'd have called it Plan A.


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:36 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://plan10.tumblr.com/

Re: [9fans] new fork?

[David Leimbach]

There is/was a Plan B.  Some of the ideas went into Octopus I think...


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Devon H. O'Dell devon.od...@gmail.comwrote:

 2013/2/27 David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com:
  I'd have called it Plan A.

 [Insert horrific Plan B joke here.]

  On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:36 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  http://plan10.tumblr.com/
 
 

Re: [9fans] arcnet

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 6:16 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 On 21 February 2013 12:54, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote:
 they say it's pretty deterministic. good read from wikipedia.
 
 I was disappointed to discover that ARCNET did not, in fact, send packets by 
 shooting huge electrical arcs from sender to receiver, in the manner of a 
 proper science fiction film.

Teslanet?

Re: [9fans] c compiler bug

[David Leimbach]

Can I run it on my iPhone?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 11:58 AM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote:

 good day. is this the p9p on osx help forum?
 

Re: [9fans] meet native port of rdesktop 1.6

[David Leimbach]

Very cool!


On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Yaroslav yari...@gmail.com wrote:

 /n/sources/contrib/yk/rdesktop

 It supports RGB16 server output only and doesn't implement graphic orders
 beyond bitmap update. Tested against XP and servers 2003, 2008, 2012.

 --
 - Yaroslav Kolomiyets

[9fans] Fwd:

[David Leimbach]

http://fiorentinix.altervista.org/ajbev3.php

Re: [9fans] Fwd:

[David Leimbach]

This is not from me.  I just received a bunch of mail from myself on a few 
email accounts at about this time.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:17 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://fiorentinix.altervista.org/ajbev3.php
 

Re: [9fans] Fwd:

[David Leimbach]

It just occurred to me this could be the backup software I use on my Mac that 
runs overnight Its java based client may have done some bad things

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:17 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://fiorentinix.altervista.org/ajbev3.php
 

Re: [9fans] Fwd:

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2013, at 6:17 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:17 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://fiorentinix.altervista.org/ajbev3.php
 
 so, what is that place?
 
 ron
 
No idea

Re: [9fans] these are release of 9front?

[David Leimbach]

I think you guys should keep doing what you do.  Different people have 
different reasons and motivations for what they do.  These do not always line 
up well to form a totally free-from-fragmentation community.  That we all still 
share 9fans is a good way to keep up with the different efforts too.

I like that 9front is around and pushing things a little differently.  The 
mainline can take what they think is useful right?  I see no issues.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 8, 2013, at 6:33 AM, cinap_len...@gmx.de wrote:

 i mean, dont worry about us. we'r not intending to be a burden
 for the plan9 community. we dont ask for help on anything. we made
 a process. we merge in changes from the various forks out there.
 we test stuff on our own. we dont get into long pointless debates
 about how stuff should be done. we just do it. sorry for all the
 people asking on 9fans about 9front stuff.
 
 --
 cinap
 

Re: [9fans] 9fans Digest, Vol 103, Issue 57

[David Leimbach]

It's the dual of a nap, which probably means to be awake.


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Matthew Veety mve...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, cinap_len...@gmx.de wrote:

  ken has left the building

 --
 conap



 Who is this conap, and what have you done with cinap?

 --
 Veety

Re: [9fans] C++

[David Leimbach]

Haskell


On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Eugene Gorodinsky
e.gorodin...@gmail.comwrote:

 Yay! A C++ vs the world flamewar! Again.

 Let me just point out that writing a game engine consists of a little bit
 more than just calls to opengl. Game engine programmers tend to embed
 scripting languages in their engines as opposed to writing the engines in
 Java, C#, Python or Lua.

 P.S. Coincidentally, here's a link to Carmack's rant about how script
 interpreters suck:
 http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interpreters-considered-harmful
 P.P.S. idTech4 and above use C++. Carmack probably doesn't write idiomatic
 C anymore, considering his tips on doing functional programming in C++ (
 http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/26/functional-programming-in-c/)

 2012/11/23 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com

 On Friday 23 of November 2012 10:47:09 Gorka Guardiola wrote:
  On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com
 wrote:
   But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an
   unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn
   my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when
   he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees
   using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from
   friends in the computer lab was stubborn-  and occasionally, ok
   frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on
   the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program
   efficiently.
 
  Yes, this is why most games, which do not need speed or efficiency at
 all
  are programmed in C++. (...)

 you've just stepped on my pet peeve, apologies in advance for what
 follows.

 'NITPICK'
 the bulk of in-game graphics processing is done via OpenGL calls/DirectX
 calls/whatever goes on the PS3' Cell CPU. the C++ parts could be replaced
 with
 Python and noone would be any the wiser.

 similarily, Youtube flash player does not decode nor scale video in Flash'
 Actionscript; the GPU does it. unless you have broken drivers like i had
 once,
 in which case it is /slow/.

 C++ for the assembly-line-style game development [1] is choosen as PHB's
 safe
 bet  -- a.k.a. ``industry's stadard practice'' -- and not on technical
 merits.
 cue picture of Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame).

 if you really must, John Carmak writes idomatic C, not C++.
 NITPICK;


 [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821152 and countless other
 stories.

 --
 dexen deVries

 [[[↓][→]]]


 Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity.
 -- Alvy Ray Smith

Re: [9fans] C++

[David Leimbach]

On Nov 23, 2012 6:03 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:

  Are operating systems written in C for it's technical merits or because
  it is industry standard practice?

 Neither: pragmatism.  The language and Unix grew up together, teaching
 each other many tricks.

 ++L


And they are not all written in C.

Re: [9fans] c++

[David Leimbach]

On Nov 22, 2012 8:31 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote:

  it's an Xbox game. and yes, you
  need it ;)

 Xbox-360?  Surely it runs IBM code?


Yes.  IBM power pc
 :-)

 ++L

Re: [9fans] c++

[David Leimbach]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 09:56:33AM -0500, Calvin Morrison wrote:
  On 19 November 2012 04:59, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote:
 
  Isn't all C code valid C++? problem solved.


 As of c99, they have diverged.

 They weren't the same in 1998 either.

Re: [9fans] caveat... optimizer? the `zero and forget' thread on HN

[David Leimbach]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:07 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote:

 On Mon Oct 29 19:06:41 EDT 2012, ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:
  On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:47:02 - Charles Forsyth 
 charles.fors...@gmail.com  wrote:
  
   He can fool it once, but can he fool it twice? Can he recompile?
 
  Why not.  Compilers never get wise to the ways of sneaky programmers!

 feedback-based optimization.

 - erik


Call me crazy, but I always felt compilers were there to emit code that
reflected what I wrote, not what it thinks it can do a better job writing
for me.  People complain that Go is not a good systems language due to the
garbage collector.  Maybe C isn't a good language due to all the places
where optimizers are allowed to break code.

Re: [9fans] I need some EDID

[David Leimbach]

Big Damn HP monitor (ZR30w)

Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2560 x 1600, maximum 8192 x 8192
VGA1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
Identifier: 0x41
Timestamp:  19460
Subpixel:   unknown
Clones:
CRTCs:  0 1
Transform:  1.00 0.00 0.00
0.00 1.00 0.00
0.00 0.00 1.00
   filter:
HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
Identifier: 0x42
Timestamp:  19460
Subpixel:   unknown
Clones:
CRTCs:  0 1
Transform:  1.00 0.00 0.00
0.00 1.00 0.00
0.00 0.00 1.00
   filter:
force_audio: 0 (0x) range:  (-1,1)
DP1 connected 2560x1600+0+0 (0x44) normal (normal left inverted right x
axis y axis) 641mm x 400mm
Identifier: 0x43
Timestamp:  19460
Subpixel:   unknown
Gamma:  1.0:1.0:1.0
Brightness: 1.0
Clones:
CRTC:   0
CRTCs:  0 1
Transform:  1.00 0.00 0.00
0.00 1.00 0.00
0.00 0.00 1.00
   filter:
EDID:
000022f06c2801010101
02160104b5402878e28d85ad4f35b125
0e50540001010101010101010101
010101010101e26800a0a0402e603020
36008190211abc1b00a050201730
302036008190211a00fc0048
50205a523330770a2020202000ff
00434e34323032313338460a2020007b
force_audio: 0 (0x) range:  (-1,1)
  2560x1600 (0x44)  268.5MHz +HSync -VSync *current +preferred
h: width  2560 start 2608 end 2640 total 2720 skew0 clock
98.7KHz
v: height 1600 start 1603 end 1609 total 1646   clock
60.0Hz
  1280x800 (0x45)   71.0MHz +HSync -VSync
h: width  1280 start 1328 end 1360 total 1440 skew0 clock
49.3KHz
v: height  800 start  803 end  809 total  823   clock
59.9Hz

Re: [9fans] Uriel

[David Leimbach]

Sorry to hear this.

On Sunday, October 14, 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:

 I'll second that.  Made for many an interesting conversation!
 RIP

 -Ben
 
 From: 9fans-boun...@9fans.net javascript:; 
 [9fans-boun...@9fans.netjavascript:;]
 on behalf of Devon H. O'Dell [devon.od...@gmail.com javascript:;]
 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 1:17 PM
 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
 Subject: Re: [9fans] Uriel

 He was certainly a lively and unique character in person and on the
 various lists / channels he frequented. RIP.

 --dho

 2012/10/14 Calvin Morrison mutanttur...@gmail.com javascript:;:
  On 14 October 2012 15:55, Sergey Zhilkin szhil...@gmail.comjavascript:;
 wrote:
  Oh  F*ck...
  R.I.P
 
  Bad news.
 
  воскресенье, 14 октября 2012 г. пользователь Julius Schmidt писал:
 
  I am very sorry to inform you that uriel has passed away recently.
 
  He will be missed.
 
 
 
  --
  Sent from Gmail Mobile
 
  I'm speechless.
 

Re: [9fans] finally success with pentium d dualcore D945PLrn board

[David Leimbach]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012, wrote:

 this machine works now in mp mode (after 4 years) with
 9front's acpi implementation.

 http://9fans.net/archive/2008/02/671

 --
 cinap


Nice!

Re: [9fans] higher-end compute server recommendations?

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:10 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote:

 On Thu Jul 26 08:41:56 EDT 2012, 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:
   And reserve same amount in $5K to have 140 ethernet ports switch ;)
 
  No need for ethernet - just link boards in a mesh using gpio pins.
 
  And yes, I am joking.

 it's an intersting thought experiment.

 here are other ways to get = processors cheeper

 1.  sgi altex.  32 processors itanic goodness for $1500.  you could get two
 and double your processors.


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SGI-Altix-3000-Rack-LOADED-with-C-Bricks-each-with-2-x-1-3GHz-16GB-/310415290426?pt=COMP_EN_Servershash=item484631703a#ht_784wt_979


Itanium was fun to play with years and years ago when I had access to them.
 Just because it was different mostly.  I liked it for the same reason I
liked those Cell processors - I'm weird.





 2.  sgi onyx2.  8 processors for $200.  you could get 20 for $4000, but
 you may be calling an electrician


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SGI-Silicon-Graphics-Onyx2-Server-CMN-A016-RM-10-256-/290748779993?pt=COMP_EN_Servershash=item43b1fa4dd9#ht_9902wt_818


Cool!


 - erik

Re: [9fans] higher-end compute server recommendations?

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:16 AM, andrey mirtchovski
mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote:

   I liked it for the same reason I
  liked those Cell processors - I'm weird.

 a lot of people really hated it because it killed alpha...

 Yes that was very sad.   I liked Alpha too, but business reasons caused it
to die more than Itanium as a technology.

Re: [9fans] higher-end compute server recommendations?

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:57 AM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 01:04:57PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
  On Thu Jul 26 11:18:04 EDT 2012, mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote:
 I liked it for the same reason I
liked those Cell processors - I'm weird.
  
   a lot of people really hated it because it killed alpha...
 
  credit where due.  itanic killed alpha.
 
  or more accurately, the politics behind itanic.

 And perhaps the conception too? about what was needed from the
 compiler and the programmer to really use the stuff. It seemed far
 too complex to be of sufficiently easy of use and large benefits to
 convince a lot of people to try. The doubtful description read in
 Hennesy and Patterson' Computer Architecture was fair enough.

 Not to speak about compatibility, the one feature that made Intel and
 Microsoft prosper...

 The Plan9 vs Unix is not in the very same pattern. If Itanium was
 doomed, the Plan9 approach seems to me more and more valid
 everyday---interconnections, ubiquity or lack of locality of
 resources; terminals vs. CPU vs. fileservers etc.

 And simplicity...


We'll just keep the fire lit then I suppose until people come to their
senses :-)



 --
 Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com
   http://www.kergis.com/
 Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 technical docs and man pages - licensed or public domain?

[David Leimbach]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Andy Elvey andy.el...@paradise.net.nzwrote:

  On 25/07/12 16:06, John Floren wrote:
 (snip)

 Just write the code, nobody cares. The manual pages define an interface,
 and you're going to implement it. The manual pages are copyrighted, sure,
 because they're written works and are automatically protected by copyright.
 Besides the recent Google vs. Oracle fiasco, I can't think of a time an
 open-source project had legal problems by writing new code to implement an
 API. And, based on a brief reading of
 http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1202.pdf, it looks as though a US
 judge has ruled that an API is not subject to copyright; if you implement
 the 9P API, you should be fine. Also, since you're doing a free
 reimplementation of code which is currently available free to everyone by
 the creators (Lucent), I have a hard time figuring out exactly what basis
 they'd have for a lawsuit. john

 Hi John - thanks for that.
 Thanks also to everyone who has commented in this thread - you've been
 very helpful!  This is one of the most helpful lists that I've been on.
 This feedback is very useful as a guide to how to proceed.

 Although I'm not running Plan 9 at present (I'm on Linux), I'm very
 impressed with its elegance. Everything from kbdfs to the plumber to the
 Venti filesystem - it's all beautifully thought-out.  The way that Venti
 uses SHA1 hashes to store data reminds me a lot of Git (which I also really
 like - there's another elegantly designed bit of software).
 Thanks again, all - bye for now :)
 - Andy



Linux of course has v9fs which is a 9P implementation in the kernel.

Re: [9fans] Mini PCs

[David Leimbach]

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012, Lluís Batlle i Rossell wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 01:12:55AM -0400, Kurt H Maier wrote:
  Evaluations of the Sheevaplug in particular revealed it tended to
  overheat badly if you put any significant load on the networking
  components.  Heating problems combined with poor quality control would
  be my guess as to why that whole thing never flew.
 

 I'm very happy with my Sheevaplug. It works with heavy cpu loads (full gnu
 system builds from time to time) for days, and works very good. It's
 serving me
 very well already three years I think.

 I've it connected to a 100Mbps switch though, no gigabit.

 I've replaced capacitors in its power supply twice, though - they blew up.
 I
 think the power supply is not very well designed, but those big capacitors
 are
 cheap.


I have a guruplug I've got very little time for, but getting Plan 9 on it
was no problem.  I don't do anything with heavy CPU or network usage on
Plan 9 anyway.  I'm a bit surprised at the thermal problems, and I believe
there was a promise to address them, but I lost interest.

Dave



 Regards,
 Lluís.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone

[David Leimbach]

On Friday, June 8, 2012, erik quanstrom wrote:

  In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling
  unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data
  in a way that it's not a problem anymore.

 i don't know what you're saying here.


And that is probably for the best


 - erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone

[David Leimbach]

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:58 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote:

  I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea
  of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I
  guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor
  or the editor is part of the window system.

 right!

 i'd also add that a program is much easier to reuse than a function
 within a program.

 - erik


Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and
if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)

As an example:
I'm a rather big fan of systems like beanstalkd over say an AMQP
implementation because beanstalkd's core is in a line base text protocol,
and you can write a client for it in a shell if you really wanted to (it's
trivial, I've done it in ZSH).   I can't say the same for AMQP
implementations or JMS etc.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone

[David Leimbach]

On Friday, June 8, 2012, Gorka Guardiola wrote:

 
  Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages
 and
  if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
 may
  not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)
 

 I think type systems have their use but do not help much at the borders
 (I/O) of the program.


If only more people understood this they'd realize that it's important to
understand how things get marshalled between programs.  Types are internal
only, but may help drive marshaling.  Java Beans make me gassy.


 Reminds me of this paragraph in our paper (sorry for the autoquote)

 http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/12/6/7109

 The most usual mistake is to argue that synthetic files do not provide
 types and/or type checking, for example, when used to execute commands
 or to exchange data represented as text. It may not seem so, but
 type-checking
 does not help much regarding correctness of the requests made and/or
 data retrieved.
 Note that clients and servers may be written in different programming
 languages.
 Some will be strongly typed, some not. Those that are typed may have
 different, incompatible, type systems.
 Synthetic file servers must check data written for validity, like an OS
 kernel or a network server would. If the request made is invalid, an error
 is raised. It does not really matter in practice if the error is due
 to type checking
 or due to an invalid request. If the response given by a server is not
 correct, the
 client of the server is responsible for checking it for validity and
 acting accordingly.
 What we have seen in practice, if that when the user makes a mistake, the
 device
 raises an error, and the user tries again; this has never turned out
 to be a problem.

Re: [9fans] has anyone wished for

[David Leimbach]

Parts of the side.  But the ship has a freaking rail gun!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class_destroyer

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Matthew Veety mve...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:31 PM, cinap_len...@gmx.de wrote:

  then the front falls off.
 
  --
  cinap
 

 And probably the back too.

 --
 Veety

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert

[David Leimbach]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Charles Forsyth
charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote:

 The curious Z spelling was to avoid using a trademarked word in a generic
 sense.


But I believe Xerox lost that ability, as their name became a verb in the
common vernacular.  At least I believe I heard that in a marketing class I
had in college.

That said, it seems people can and will sue for basically anything.  I vote
we call it Kevin as a result.

Dave



 On 30 May 2012 22:05, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com wrote:

 The
 initial Z just doesn't work for me.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:50 AM, andrey mirtchovski
mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote:

 Xerox seems to have missed losing their trademark [1]. There's a
 lawsuit filed about Google's trademarked name in arizona [2]. A list
 of genericized trademarks is available at [3].

 Ahh, litigation...



Ah well, I never bought that argument myself anyway :-).  It had something
to do with fair use of things, which honestly, I think we're losing in the
United States.

Dave

Re: [9fans] new pc bootstraps

[David Leimbach]

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Stephen Wiley swwi...@gmail.com wrote:


 On May 10, 2012, at 7:30 PM, ge...@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

  New PC bootstraps and manual pages will be arriving
  on sources soon.  Highlights include amd64 booting,
  using kernel device drivers, better CD booting, and
  the ability to run on a wider range of machines.
  See the upcoming manual pages for more information.
 
 This is exciting! Thanks for the heads up. :)

 I'm looking forward to it!

Re: [9fans] new arm port: teg2

[David Leimbach]

Fantastic!

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012, wrote:

 After you pull, you should see a new directory,
 /sys/src/9/teg2.  From the _announce file:

 This is a preliminary Plan 9 port to the Compulab Trimslice,
 containing a Tegra 2 SoC: a dual-core, (truly) dual-issue 1GHz
 Cortex-A9 v7a-architecture ARM system, *and* it comes in a case.  VFP
 3 floating-point hardware is present, but 5l doesn't yet generate
 those instructions.  This is the first multiprocessor ARM port we've
 done, and much of the code should be reusable in future ports.  There
 are still things to be done but it can run both processors and is
 believed to have adequate kernel support for VFP 3 floating-point.

Re: [9fans] Mercurial port is official

[David Leimbach]

This is truly excellent.

Now to get Python to work out of the box on Plan 9.

Dave

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Steven Stallion sstall...@gmail.comwrote:

 All,

 I'm happy to report that the official Mecurial port is complete and
 has been accepted upstream. Starting with version 2.2, Mercurial will
 support Plan 9 and friends out of the box.

 You can find more information about the port here:

 http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Plan9FromBellLabs
 http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FactotumExtension

 I've updated stallion/mercurial to version 2.2-rc for the time being.
 The official 2.2 release is scheduled for the first of May. As soon as
 the release is made, I'll update the package.

 Some (slightly) bad news:

 Due to the number of changes that needed to be made in order for the
 port to be accepted upstream, I decided to recreate the contrib
 package. If you have installed a previous revision of
 stallion/mercurial, please be sure to completely remove it before
 installing the new one. Installation is slightly manual since it
 requires removing incorrect paths that were installed by
 bichued/python, however the process is documented in the
 Plan9FromBellLabs page above and in
 sources/contrib/stallion/src/mercurial/README.

 Cheers,

 Steve

Re: [9fans] SSHv2

[David Leimbach]

On Monday, April 23, 2012, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:

   I haven't tried genning up a CPU kernel with the new factotum yet.
 
  Sorry, I meant to say with Richard's patched original factotum.

 Patching no longer necessary - it's now in the standard auth/factotum
 on sources.


Sounds like its time spin up a new instance of plan 9


  I haven't tried building a new pccpuf kernel yet either, but on
  rebooting with factotum and ssh binaries built from  from blstuart/ssh
  and on miller/factotum I get to auth Authentication failed

 What authentication methods are permitted in sshd_config on your host?
 I find that if I enable only ChallengeResponseAuthentication, passwd
 doesn't work, but if I enable PasswordAuthentication it does.

Re: [9fans] nix at lsub

[David Leimbach]

Awesome!

On Saturday, April 14, 2012, Nemo wrote:

 Hi,

 just FYI,

 http://lsub.org/ls/nix.html

 has links and pointers for anyone to get the
 distribution and updates and/or send changes.

 hth

Re: [9fans] SSHv2 and scp

[David Leimbach]

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012, Lucio De Re wrote:

  I have fixed various bugs in ssh2; they'll be in the ssh2
  on sources once it's all shaken down.

 Wow!

 ++L


Makes me want fire my guru plug back up

[9fans] Plan 9 on ESX?

[David Leimbach]

Anyone doing this?  I've had a crazy, no ZANY, notion of running ESX as my
host OS, then spinning up all the various windows, freebsd, or Plan 9's
that I need as necessary on my work workstation.

Dave

Re: [9fans] nice terminal...

[David Leimbach]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:

  My delivery note says May

 You're lucky.  I'm on the waiting list to be allowed onto
 the pre-order queue.


 Luxury!  There were four of us living in a brown paper bag in a septic
tank...

(sorry couldn't resist)

Re: [9fans] Some things never change

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Jack Johnson knapj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:43 PM, erik quanstrom
 quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote:
  pfft.  we've always had find.  we've just called it du.

 It's funny, since I learned how to do that via 9fans, I still do it
 that way on Linux.

 -Jack

 As do I.  People often look at me funny for doing it that way.  In fact, I
suspect I use a lot more small tools on pipes than people not exposed to
Plan 9.

Re: [9fans] KerTeX: e-TeX, CWEB and packaging!

[David Leimbach]

+1

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:41 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:

 Voting Thierry for #1 poster of 2012 [so far]

 Looking forward to trying the new release!


 John

 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 3:02 PM,  tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
  Hello,
 
  A supplementary note for Plan9 users before reproducing the announce.
 
  I was testing the new version on Plan9 when the infamous Disk full
  error occured [my plan9 installation is still the initial one...].
 
  So I have tested the compilation. The installation should go without
  problem, but there is a new thing that I have not tested: the new!
  packaging system.
 
  More précisely, to install LaTeX for example there is a pkg_latex.sh
  scripts that handles everything. The problem is not here, but in the
  system dependent part of pkglib.sh, indeed the http/ftp retriever
  (with a own pkg syntax). I have written it before testing... and have
  not tested.
 
  It would be mere chance if this preliminary version has no blunder (the
  script is short; but that's never prevented me from doing obvious stupid
  mistakes).
 
  So be careful... or courageous. [I will redo entirely the install
  sometimes in the week...].
 
  Now, the official announce:
 
  ==
 
  The 0..0.2 version of kerTeX has been released.
 
  This version includes:
 
 - NEW! NTS team' e-TeX (e-TeX passes the 3 steps ETRIP test); for
 the ones unaware, amongst other things, e-TeX offers left-to-right
 and right-to-left...
 
 - NEW! Donald E. Knuth and Silvio Levy' CWEB programs (CWEBINPUTS
 accept the same syntax for path searching as the other kerTeX
 programs: colon separated alternatives);
 
 - NEW! A packaging system!
 
  kerTeX passes the TRAP (METAFONT), TRIP (TeX), TWIST (New name for
  MetaPost torture test) and ETRIP (NTS e-TeX) tests.
 
  WHAT IS KERTEX?
 
  KerTeX aims to be a portable, maintainable, small and robust TeX kernel
  System, providing the basis upon which everything depends: D.E. Knuth's
  digital typography programs.
 
  It has maximum portability: C89 and that's all the binaries program. For
  running, one program---MetaPost---depends on a handful Bourne shell
  script. For the administration of the system, we use only a limited
  subset of essential POSIX.2 tools (that can typically be found on
  Plan9).
 
  KerTex has to be thought as a guest system: it is hosted by an OS. Once
  kerTeX is ported to the OS, the ideal would be that TeXpkg are solely
  the problem of kerTeX: one packages for kerTeX, and the host system has
  nothing to worry about.
 
  KerTeX is small (see LISEZ.MOI/README):
 
 - 10 Mb of sources to download.
 
 - The sources are taken read-only by the R.I.S.K framework. So one
 needs, at least... 16 Mb of writable space to compile and package
 (with R.I.S.K SAVE_SPACE=YES option, that removes all intermediary
 products---including the generated Makefiles...---once a target is
 obtained (make SAVE_SPACE=YES; make SAVE_SPACE=yes pkg).
 
 - The initial installation needs 16 Mb of free space.
 
 - After installation, kerTeX uses its own packaging system to
 compile the dumps (for METAFONT, TeX, e-TeX and MetaPost) and to
 generate the fonts and derived TFM. It is so for not running the
 compiler/interpreter as root.
 
 This adds 9 Mb to the base system. So it needs apx. 25 Mb
 to
 install.
 
 
  TeX THE AWARD WINNING SOFTWARE!
 
 
  AWARDED! best software of 2012! [so far]
 
 
READ WHAT OTHER CUSTOMERS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT kerTeX!
 
 
  Mr Euclides [Alexandria]: Whoa!... If only I had had it before, I
  wouldn't have to copy my books by hand! And furthermore, I wouldn't have
  to answer again, and again and again! the very same question: How were
  your other books lost ? That's not my _books_ that were lost: that's
  my time, trying to install another TeX distribution!
 
   EXTRACTS FROM THE FAQ
 
  Q: We are professionals in the printing business, with professional
  needs. Do you have a kerTeX-pro?
 
  A: no: all our products are professional ones.
 
  Q: We were planning to install a TeX distribution. So we have bought a
  Top10 supercomputer; planned to hire 30 TeX wizards and were in
  negociation to buy some Megawatts when heating is almost over, and
  cooling not already there, in order to have cheaper prices. And now, you
  announce this What shall I do?
 
  A: Resp.: sell, fire and revoke. With your pocket money, go to the next
  supermarket and buy a middle sized programmable toaster. It should have
  memory enough to cross-compile kerTeX for your wrist-watch.
 
  GET THE FACTS!
 
  The scientific community has shamelessly hiden what is known as David
  Hilbert's 24th problem---because it was deemed too hard. Here we restore
  the facts. David 

Re: [9fans] FYI: Chibi-scheme on plan9

[David Leimbach]

I think this is the reference implementation for r7rs as well isn't it?

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:

 Alex Shinn's Chibi-scheme is a r7rs small language
 compatible Scheme. It can be used standalone for scripting or
 as a library to provide an extension language. Full guide at
 http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/

 Installation:
  hget http://chibi-scheme.googlecode.com/files/chibi-scheme-0.5.1.tgz | \
gunzip | tar xv
  cd chibi-scheme-0.5.1
  mk install

 Its plan9 support needs more work: access to more of plan9
 API, mkfile needs work + targets for .a, html docs, more
 tests, etc. but the port is eminently usable.

Re: [9fans] all you yacc experts

[David Leimbach]

Pretty cool!

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Anthony Martin al...@pbrane.org wrote:

 Attached is a modified version of p9p yacc that
 supports the Go grammar.  I'll be sending a
 version of Plan 9 yacc later today.

 The following is a description of the changes.

  1. The %error-verbose directive is ignored.

  2. A description of the final grammar is
 printed before the state descriptions
 in y.output.

  3. The 'x' format for character literals is
 now used instead of prefixing with a space.

  4. The YYEMPTY define is now used to clear
 the lookahead token (instead of an explicit
 negative one).

  5. Make yychar and yystate globals so they
 can be inspected by external code.

  5. Support C++ style // comments in actions.

  6. Add a usage message.

  7. Fix a few uses of sprint and strcpy.


 I've also sent out a changeset to the Go
 development list which adds support for
 using Plan 9 yacc to generate the special
 errors.

 One tiny nit is that Plan 9 uses the name
 yytoknames for debugging where Bison uses
 yytname.  I've just used sed for this.

 Any questions?
   Anthony

Re: [9fans] cocoa devdraw

[David Leimbach]

Ucontext stuff was being deprecated in Leopard was my understanding and that 
support for it would be shoddy.

Time to roll our own?  Didn't you already do this?

Thanks also to David!

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 Thanks to heroic effort by David Jeannot,
 there is a new Cocoa-based OS X devdraw that
 seems to work well enough that I made it the
 default even on Snow Leopard.
 
 If you do the usual hg pull -u; ./INSTALL you'll get it.
 
 I think the only pending Lion issue now is that
 people using Xcode 4.1 don't have working threads.
 I haven't tracked that down yet.  I suspect the
 getcontext/setcontext routines in that Xcode are
 just broken.
 
 Russ

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 is dead

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jack Norton j...@0x6a.com wrote:

 Christoph Lohmann wrote:

 Hello,

 now that an academic non-polished Plan 9 remake with idiotic
 dependencies and the fun OS, which has its only goal to add
 political jokes, are taking all the pace, I hereby declare,
 that Plan 9 is MORE ALIVE THAN EVER.

 Rest In Peace.


 Sincerely,

 Christoph Lohmann


 FTFY

 Giving a new direction to plan 9 is, in a sense, a death.  Death is the
gateway to a new beginning.

Plan 9 is dead, long live Plan 9.

Dave

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:23 AM, andrey mirtchovski
mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote:

 add:

 [ $SYSNAME != Darwin ] || ranlib $2

 to the bottom of $PLAN9/bin/9ar

 then cd src/cmd/devdraw  mk cocoa  cp cocoa $PLAN9/bin/devdraw

 now you're as far as I got :) i'm trying to figure out why 'colors'
 works, but acme exits with return value of 1.

 I have the same results.

Re: [9fans] NIX 64-bit kernel is available

[David Leimbach]

Great set of ideas here!

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 8:41 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 We'd like to announce the availability of NIX, a 64-bit Plan 9 kernel
 with some new ideas. The full set of changes will be covered at IWP9.
 For now, here are some highlights.

 - 2 MB PTEs. 4096 byte PTEs are not used in user programs at all.


PTE = Page Table Entry?  Sorry, been working in Java too long I guess :-(.



 - 64 bit address space for processes, backed by 1 Gbyte PTEs for BSS
 with addresses  1 Gbyte. Use of Gbyte PTEs does not require anything
 special; it just works. It's possible to have a process with (e.g.) 64
 Gib of memory in use which only needs 66 active PTEs (1 for code, 1
 for date, and 64 for BSS).

 - Core roles. A process can designate that it wishes to run on an
 application core (AC). ACs do not run kernel code, and take no
 interrupts, not even the APIC timer interrupt. They own the core and
 are never pre-empted. They can run all standard system calls however.


That sounds amazingly great for certain servers.



 - kernel-based Linux system call interface (work in progress)


Can I run Mozilla Firefox?  :-)



 - Optimistic semaphores, a new type of semaphore which lives half in
 and half out of the kernel, and which in many cases will never run in
 kernel


How is this both like and not like a futex?



 - Tubes, a new IPC mechanism like pipes that uses the optimistic semaphores


I love the name...



 - A new memory management design which eliminates the huge static
 array of page structs

 - NUMA-aware allocation, such that a process can be co-located with
 its memory. This support is transparent.

 - Kernel can address all of physical memory. No more bounce buffers.
 The kernel maps memory with GiB PTEs.

 - And, finally, standard Plan 9 binaries run unmodified on NIX.

 For now, NIX will only run on 64-bit x86 CPUs which support Gbyte
 PTEs, e.g. K10.

 The tree is set up to run under 9vx or on a standard Plan 9 system. We
 have tested and it is possible to do a full build of amd64 binaries
 and then a build in /sys/src/nix/k10 and boot the kernel. You'll be
 prompted
 during the build for information to create an nvram file.

 A new package manager is included in the tree, written by John Floren
 and Nemo. It aims to be fast (downloading packages over HTTP) and
 maintainable; development is ongoing, but for now pm(1) gives some
 essential information.

 As for the name: we were trying to express the fact that ACs do not
 have a kernel,
 and after much time spent with the dictionary, came up with nix.

 The code is at http://code.google.com/p/nix-os/. Management
 of the code base will be via the standard code review mechanisms
 supported by google code; you're going to need mercurial and
 the extensions. We welcome contributors.  For guidelines on how to
 contribute see
 http://golang.org/doc/contribute.html.

 You'll need a 9vx setup to start.
 Checkout the tree, and run 9vx with the tree as your root. You'll find a
 file
 called BUILDING_AMD64 with further instructions in the root.

 Thanks to Bell Labs, University Rey Juan Carlos, Vita Nuova, the
 US Dept. of Energy and  Comunidad de Madrid for their support
 and efforts in getting this working.

 Ron


Thanks again Ron and everyone involved!

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:31 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
  On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:23 AM, andrey mirtchovski 
 mirtchov...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  add:
 
  [ $SYSNAME != Darwin ] || ranlib $2
 
  to the bottom of $PLAN9/bin/9ar
 
  then cd src/cmd/devdraw  mk cocoa  cp cocoa $PLAN9/bin/devdraw
 
  now you're as far as I got :) i'm trying to figure out why 'colors'
  works, but acme exits with return value of 1.
 
  I have the same results.

 anything useful from truss?

 ron


I should probably try that... but I've not had time to get back to it
yet...

Re: [9fans] NIX 64-bit kernel is available

[David Leimbach]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:10 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:

  So you use both 2MB and 1GB PTEs?

 Yes. nemo had some extremely clever ideas and hence we can use them
 (but not in the same segment).


  Tubes in memory of Sen Ted Stevens?

 The name came first, but once I found the quote, well, the name had to be
 used.


You could have called it big truck




  No such file.

 Sorry. hg is having some issues with that. Here it is. You need the
 386 libraries there for jpeg to build. Or something like that.

 cd /sys/src
 objtype=386
 mk libs
 cd ape/lib
 mk install
 cd /sys/src
 objtype=amd64
 mk install

 btw, note a secondary effect of this repo is that it can replace
 sysfromiso.

 ron

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

Thanks for all of your work on this!

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 8:59 AM, david jeannot djeanno...@gmail.com wrote:

  So I will send my code in the next few days,
  unless there is a need.

 I'm 9 days late, but here it is: the Cocoa version
 of Devdraw.  I just submitted it to Codereview:

http://codereview.appspot.com/5015042

 I removed live resizing, because I found no way to
 make it perfect: the window now becomes gray while
 resizing.


 About gestures now.

 A swipe gesture needs 3 fingers (with trackpads at
 least).  If you want to use them, you must
 reconfigure OS X Lion to use 4 fingers instead of
 3 (to swipe between spaces, or to swipe to
 Mission Control for example).

 As previously discussed, OS X Lion doesn't send
 swipe events anymore for vertical swipes.  So I
 reimplemented swipe gestures with lower-level
 touch events.  All that I can say is that it works
 well with a late 2010 MacBook Air's trackpad.
 Unfortunately, it seems only for trackpads: not
 for Magic Mouse.  The higher-level gesture
 events seem compatible with Magic Mouse (though
 I don't know to how many fingers a swipe gesture
 corresponds), but the lower-level touch events
 seem incompatible (I may be mistaken).

 If you want to use the reimplemented swipes, you
 have to set the reimplementswipe variable at the
 beginning of cocoa-screen.m (the file's name may
 change soon).

 One advantage of this reimplementation is that we
 can now detect 3-finger taps.  If you set the
 usecopygesture variable as well, you have now
 the following gestures:

3-finger swipe-left to cut (cmd+x),
3-finger swipe-right to paste (cmd+v),
3-finger swipe-up to copy (cmd+c),
3-finger swipe-down to execute with arguments (2-1 chord),
3-finger tap to execute (button 2),
pinch to toggle fullscreen.

 Else you have:

   swipe-left to cut (cmd+x),
   swipe-right to paste (cmd+v),
   swipe-up to execute (button 2),
   swipe-down to execute with arguments (2-1 chord),
   pinch to toggle fullscreen.

 In both cases, horizontal swipes cancel each
 other if your fingers remain on the device in
 between.  That is to say, the second swipe sends
 undo (cmd+z): a command only recognized by Acme
 currently.  An annoyance is the behavior of Acme's
 Undo when we are in the window's tag.  Acme only
 seems to undo filename change, else it undoes the
 last change in the window's body.  For example, if
 you want to copy from the tag, (unless you use the
 copy gesture) you will have to lift the fingers
 between the left and the right swipe, else it will
 undo the window's body, and you will be completely
 puzzled.

 I wish this announcement will not cause too much
 disappointment among Magic Mouse users.  I knew
 nothing of Mac programming before to begin this
 project one month ago, and I certainly generalize
 too much.  (I didn't understood what was the
 mysterious multitouch code in Carbon's Devdraw,
 until some days ago, where I fell upon a similar
 code to communicate with the Magic Mouse here:
 http://www.iphonesmartapps.org/aladino/?a=multitouch)


 If OS X Lion's users prefer the old fullscreen
 mode, they can set the useoldfullscreen
 variable.

 (Currently, Devdraw can't accept arguments, and as
 it is so hard to compile anything with current
 Xcode 4.1, I didn't try to modify Libdraw.  This
 is why you have to set variables instead of using
 optional arguments.)


 Be sure to read the description on Codereview for
 the remaining bugs, to avoid further
 disappointment.


 If you need binaries running on Lion (Cocoa's
 Devdraw, Acme supporting cmd+z, etc.), I will be
 happy to provide them.

Re: [9fans] 9ttp

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:51 AM, hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote:

 HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is
 not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p
 is much slower for getting files.

 HTTP tries to be stateless as well.  Hence REST.  9p is a fairly stateful
protocol.
... but then so is NFSv4, and 9p remains simpler.

There's also pi-P documented somewhere that takes the ideas of 9p and makes
them more applicable to the space where http is interesting, as well as
others.

Dave

Re: [9fans] 9ttp

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:04 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Thursday 08 of September 2011 14:54:40 erik quanstrom wrote:
  On Thu Sep  8 04:52:08 EDT 2011, 23h...@googlemail.com wrote:
   HTTP is technically different and not easily comparable to 9p. HTTP is
   not a good example of how to do things, but over high-latency links 9p
 
with a single outstanding request
 
   is much slower for getting files.
 
  there, fixed that for ya.

 is 9p windowable at all? is that implemented?



9p has tagged requests.  The client chooses them, and therefore, for certain
servers you can overlap requests and get reasonable performance.  I've
designed very simplistic protocols like this before, and they typically pan
out nicely.  I had a simple request/response system for issuing commands to
a C program that would fetch data of CAN bus connected microcontrollers.
It was very nice to work with as you could drive the C program from
basically any programming language.  I ended up using Erlang.  Go wasn't
really quite available yet :-).

Dave


 --
 dexen deVries

 [[[↓][→]]]

 For example, if the first thing in the file is:
   ?kzy irefvba=1.0 rapbqvat=ebg13?
 an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional
 ROT13 encoding.

 (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))

Re: [9fans] 9ttp

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:59 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:

  I do not think it is acceptable to have to fork repeatedly merely to
  efficiently read a file. Also, as far as I can tell, exactly one
  program (fcp) does that.
 
  Can a single process have multiple outstanding requests? My
  investigations indicated not, but then again I may have mis-read
  things.

 So, John, you don't think it's reasonable to rewrite every program a
 la fcp? How unreasonable of you :-)

 ron

 Perhaps if we built a large wooden badger...

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

YES!  This is great.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 7:16 AM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 David's new Cocoa devdraw is in the plan9port tree now,
 but not built by default.  There are still some rough
 edges to work out.  If you want to play and maybe
 find and fix bugs, you can use

 cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/devdraw
 mk cocoa
 export DEVDRAW=$PLAN9/src/cmd/devdraw/cocoa
 colors
 acme
 sam
 whatever

 Russ

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

It built ok here, but sam, and acme aren't doing anything terribly
interesting (well maybe it is interesting, but they're crashing, presumably
logging something to somewhere interesting).

I'll keep poking when I'm not at work later.

Dave

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote:

 Nice handling of the Glenda icon.

 Using Xcode 4.1 on Lion I get different errors (libstdio is another problem
 as FPdbleword is no longer defined) so I'm still not rebuilding everything.
  9c picks up:

 gcc version 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2335.15.00)


 9c -DMULTITOUCH -o cocoa-screen-objc.o cocoa-screen.m
 cocoa-screen.m:712: error: cannot convert to a pointer type
 cocoa-screen.m:712: error: incompatible type for argument 1 of
 ‘CGWarpMouseCursorPosition’

 Corrected that would be:
 % hg diff .
 diff -r d92a37e64563 src/cmd/devdraw/cocoa-screen.m
 --- a/src/cmd/devdraw/cocoa-screen.mTue Sep 06 10:10:43 2011 -0400
 +++ b/src/cmd/devdraw/cocoa-screen.mTue Sep 06 11:08:04 2011 -0500
 @@ -709,7 +709,7 @@
q = [win.obj convertBaseToScreen:q];
q.y = r.size.height - q.y;

 -   CGWarpMouseCursorPosition(q);
 +   CGWarpMouseCursorPosition(NSPointToCGPoint(q));

  // race condition
mpos = p;


 On Sep 6, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Russ Cox wrote:

  Try adding
 
  # HA HA HA.  Apple broke things again.
  [ $SYSNAME != Darwin ] || ranlib $2
 
  to the bottom of $PLAN9/bin/9ar
 
 

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

You have to then rebuild everything.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Latchesar Ionkov lu...@ionkov.net wrote:

 I get the same errors.

 Thanks,
Lucho

 On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu ara...@mgk.ro wrote:
  Try adding
 
  # HA HA HA.  Apple broke things again.
  [ $SYSNAME != Darwin ] || ranlib $2
 
  to the bottom of $PLAN9/bin/9ar
 
 
  Cocoa bits build this way, but other things don't.
 
  Here's a log: http://pastebin.com/mh5Z6xrf
 
  --
  Aram Hăvărneanu
 
 

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

I'm using 4.1 currently, will try updating.  Everything builds fine, but
some stuff doesn't run.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 I am using Xcode 4.2 on Lion without problems.
 Can you try updating to the newer Xcode?

 Russ

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

4.1 is the latest release of Xcode by the way.  4.2 is for Apple devs who
pay (according to the site anyway).

Dave

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:41 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm using 4.1 currently, will try updating.  Everything builds fine, but
 some stuff doesn't run.


 On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 I am using Xcode 4.2 on Lion without problems.
 Can you try updating to the newer Xcode?

 Russ

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:33 AM, david jeannot djeanno...@gmail.comwrote:

  It is possible that we just need to tweak the
  headers to get Carbon to build again, but Cocoa is
  obviously the right long term plan.

 I have a working Cocoa version of Devdraw for
 OS X Lion: I'm using it with Acme to write this email.

 There is just the bare minimum:

no menu but 'Quit',
no fullscreen but OS X Lion's fullscreen,
no Multitouch support.

 It answers to the following gesture events though:

swipe-left to cut (cmd+x),
swipe-right to paste (cmd+v),
swipe-up to execute (button 2),
swipe-down to execute with arguments (2-1 chord),
pinch to toggle fullscreen.

 I will send my code at the end of next week: I
 still need time to clean it and to try to resolve
 some imperfections and inconsistencies.

 Sounds pretty awesome!

Re: [9fans] use Go rewrite plan 9

[David Leimbach]

Plan9 is the best idea I've seen never widely executed.  Some people in the 
know get it, but with the way the web and the cloud is turning out, well it 
just makes a ton of sense to me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2011, at 12:45 AM, Yousong Zhou yszhou4t...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wow. The other day when I saw Go as a language of choice for the
 google's appengine, I ran into the search engine and searched if there
 were plans of implementing an OS using Go since I had heard words that
 it's a system-level language attempting to surpassing C.
 
 As to plan9, I never got the chance to run it up using real box or
 virtualbox or vmware thing. sad... It would be great following the
 grow-up of an OS with brand new concepts.
 
 On 19 August 2011 17:00, xiangyu xiantingma...@gmail.com wrote:
 Now the Golang is almost mature . Are  the designers of  plan9
 interested in rewriting plan 9 in the Go language ? personality I'm
 very expecting they do it. the reasons are : first the language change
 from C to Go is the last step of the whole Unix to Plan9. second  it
 will provide a good place to study  the Go language. use the software
 written with it I'm expecting they will do it.
 
 
 

Re: [9fans] Fossil fs recovery

[David Leimbach]

Is it obvious enough from the man pages that this wouldn't be too useful to
have on the Plan 9 wiki?

I'm a big believer in the wiki, but not when it pushes one to avoid reading
the authoritative documentation of the man pages.

Dave

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:11 AM, David du Colombier 0in...@gmail.comwrote:

 In fact, it's pretty straightforward.

 In the following example, I consider you have a disk sdE0
 with Fossil, and you want to add a disk sdE1 with Venti.

 Create the Venti partitions:

 disk/fdisk -baw /dev/sdE1/data
 disk/prep -bw -a^(isect arenas bloom) /dev/sdE1/plan9

 Format the Venti file systems:

 venti/fmtisect isect /dev/sdE1/isect
 venti/fmtarenas arenas /dev/sdE1/arenas
 venti/fmtbloom /dev/sdE1/bloom

 Since the bloom filter requires memory equal to its size
 on disk, you could need to pass the parameter -s to fmtbloom
 to specify its size or directly adjust the partition size.
 Keep in mind that Venti use 20% total memory by default, and
 1/3 of it is allocated to the bloom filter.
 For example, with 1 GB of memory, you cannot have a bloom filter
 larger than 64 MB (which is sufficient) with the default settings.
 Of course, the bloom filter is optional anyway.

 Configure Venti:

 echo 'index main
 isect /dev/sdE1/isect
 arenas /dev/sdE1/arenas
 bloom /dev/sdE1/bloom' | venti/conf -w /dev/sdE1/arenas

 Initialize the index sections:

 venti/fmtindex /dev/sdE1/arenas

 Read your current Fossil configuration:

 fossil/conf /dev/sdE0/fossil  fossil.conf

 Edit fossil.conf, it should look like something like:

 fsys main config /dev/sdE0/fossil
 fsys main open -V -c 3000

 Remove -V to open and srv if needed, then
 add the following line to enable automatic
 snapshots:

 fsys main snaptime -s 60 -a 0530 -t 2880

 (snapshot at 05:30, temporary snapshot each
  hour and discarded after two days)

 Write your new Fossil configuration:

 fossil/conf -w /dev/sdE0/fossil  fossil.conf

 Mount your 9fat file system, then add the following line
 to the file /n/9fat/plan9.ini:

 venti=#S/sdE1/arenas

 After rebooting, the current Fossil content will be dumped
 to Venti.

 --
 David du Colombier

Re: [9fans] simple venti demo:

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:15 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 OK, there is a go version that lucho wrote:
 https://code.google.com/p/govt/


Hooray for government!   Oh, wait...

Re: [9fans] simple venti demo:

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:49 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote:

  Note a difference between lucho and me: I ignore vtsync (I always sync
  on writes) and he properly pays attention to it. Question for the
  student: which one is better? Why?

 question cannot be answered due to insufficient
 information about what better means.  are you after
 performance or reliability?

 - erik

 You just answered the question :-)

Re: [9fans] simple venti demo:

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Fazlul Shahriar fshahr...@gmail.comwrote:

  Is it goinstallable?  If so, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.  I very
  rarely use any 3rd party Go code but my own :-).

 goinstall govt.googlecode.com/hg/vt/vtclnt
 goinstall govt.googlecode.com/hg/vt/vtsrv

 Works for me.

 fhs

 strings.SplitN is not there... I must be a release or so behind for go?

Re: [9fans] simple venti demo:

[David Leimbach]

got it...  Seems to build fine now.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:54 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:

 Lucho is always up to date, better do a pull for go

 ron

Re: [9fans] simple venti demo:

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 10, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)  
lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote:

 Isn't p9p venti good enough?
 
 Nope.  It only works where p9p works.  I want code that will compile
 on any POSIX-compliant host.
 
 
Isn't p9p POSIX enough?  Confused I am, but wasn't that the point of p9p?

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:25 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
  I was with you till the very easy part.  Been following the updates
 today
  and noted that (earlier) the portion of INSTALL that detects the
  architecture on Darwin was not working.  Had a patch for that and
  regrettably blew it away (accident), then had to turn my attention to
  something else.
 
  May try again tomorrow if it persists...

 Should be fixed - there was a missing file that I added
 an hour or so after the initial change.

  As for the Cocoa bits ( cocoa bits) I might get some time
  to work that a bit this weekendif no other takers rise up.

 Thanks.  I'm surprised how much still works.  It is possible
 that we just need to tweak the headers to get Carbon to
 build again, but Cocoa is obviously the right long term plan.

 Russ


I'm not able to get to it this weekend as I had planned...

Re: [9fans] plan9port: cocoa programmer needed

[David Leimbach]

I was with you till the very easy part.  Been following the updates today
and noted that (earlier) the portion of INSTALL that detects the
architecture on Darwin was not working.  Had a patch for that and
regrettably blew it away (accident), then had to turn my attention to
something else.

May try again tomorrow if it persists...

As for the Cocoa bits ( cocoa bits) I might get some time to work that a
bit this weekendif no other takers rise up.

Dave

On Tuesday, August 2, 2011, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:
 I have updated plan9port to build and run on
 OS X Lion.  Everything works except devdraw,
 the binary that handles putting windows on the
 screen and managing the mouse and keyboard.

 Devdraw was written 3 years ago, using the
 Carbon framework.  Apple wants to retire
 that framework, so they have been slowly
 chipping away at its functionality.  It is time to
 convert $PLAN9/src/cmd/devdraw/osx-screen-carbon.m
 to Cocoa.  There is a previous attempt in osx-screen.m,
 but I would not start with that, because it has not kept
 up with recent changes (like Multitouch) and bug fixes.
 The Carbon source is a better starting point.

 Is there anyone out there who knows Cocoa and
 Objective C well enough that this would be very easy?
 I am sure I could figure it out given enough time,
 but enough here is likely quite large.

 It would also be nice to convert
 $PLAN9/src/cmd/fontsrv/osx.c, but that is
 much lower priority, as it appears to build
 okay still.

 Thanks.
 Russ

[9fans] Maybe a weird Plan 9 project.

[David Leimbach]

I was outside watering plants this morning that seem to be proof of my
not-so-green thumb I have for gardening and was thinking of an interesting
home-automation use for Plan 9.

What I'd like to do is get the following:

1. Moisture sensor I can embed in some potted plant soil, and read from Plan
9.
2. Tubing.
3. Pump I can control from Plan 9 based on moisture feedback.
4. Perhaps a rain bucket water source.

Anyone else using Plan 9 for automated gardening?  I was thinking this could
be the use for Plan 9 on my guruplug.

Any ideas how best to achieve this?  If some stuff isn't supported by Plan
9, I'm willing to investigate the writing of drivers to make it work
properly.

Just trying to find new ways to be lazy I suppose.

Dave

Re: [9fans] Maybe a weird Plan 9 project.

[David Leimbach]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 6:48 AM, EBo e...@sandien.com wrote:

 On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:44:09 -0700, David Leimbach wrote:

 I was outside watering plants this morning that seem to be proof of my
 not-so-green thumb I have for gardening and was thinking of an
 interesting
 home-automation use for Plan 9.


 take a look at styx-on-a-brick.  Once you have the basic devices working,
 actuating a relay/pump should be straight forward.

  EBo --

 I figured I'd need some kind of microcontroller for the pump and sensors.
 Maybe this is a Plan 9 managed, microcontroller project?

Then the styx-on-a-brick example seems a great starting point for getting
the query status, execute action interface.

I plan for this to be a long term, here and there geeky-dad project I can
share with my daughter :-)  (She's only 3 but I think she already has
mastered the iPad)

Dave

Re: [9fans] Maybe a weird Plan 9 project.

[David Leimbach]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM, hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I don't get the point of plan9 here. Learning C should be a matter of
 hours for such an unspoiled mind, so I'd say go with bare hardware.


Consider that I may want to flesh out interfaces to this system later.  I
could also do this in Linux, or FreeBSD or even Windows, but why not on Plan
9?

Heck I could do it from Emacs if I wanted to...

The only reason plan 9 is interesting here is because it's the target I'm
choosing :-)

Dave

Re: [9fans] Maybe a weird Plan 9 project.

[David Leimbach]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:08 PM, EBo e...@sandien.com wrote:

 On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:22:55 -0700, David Leimbach wrote:


 Consider that I may want to flesh out interfaces to this system later.  I
 could also do this in Linux, or FreeBSD or even Windows, but why not on
 Plan
 9?


 It would also be intersting to control these devices via the new Linux 9p
 interface.

  Heck I could do it from Emacs if I wanted to...


 actually, I would love to see that as an implementation.  I can see it
 now... editing the garden.


Issuing RPCs from Emacs is really not that bad if you can stomach elisp.


  The only reason plan 9 is interesting here is because it's the target I'm
 choosing :-)


 I have other interests along this line as well.  This could make an
 interesting interface in general.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] novel userspace paradigms introduced by plan 9

[David Leimbach]

I don't see why anyone combining ideas from Plan 9 into Linux hurts
Plan 9 as long as Plan 9 continues to exist.

On Saturday, July 16, 2011, simon softnet ph.soft...@gmail.com wrote:
 Please, don't let plan 9 and linux be interrelated in the future in any way 
 ...Future plan 9 users have the opportunity to experience novel user-space 
 paradigms.Why do they have to be sucked into the linux world?

 Simon

 On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Robert Seaton seat...@dupage.edu wrote:

 one might find http://www.glendix.org/ project interesting

 The project actually already uses a glendix patched kernel and much of
 my upcoming work will be focused on porting more of Plan 9's syscalls
 to the Linux kernel so that more native Plan 9 apps can be run on
 Linux. :)

Re: [9fans] vm ongoing woes

[David Leimbach]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:18 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Thursday 23 June 2011 17:09:56 ron minnich wrote:
  oh no. EFI is much worse than that. It's an operating system written
  by people who never understood the lessons learned by Unix in 1970.
  I'm not kidding.

 can one run a web browser directly on it? ;-)
 (only half kidding there)


Emacs and Python work on EFI, so yes.



 --
 dexen deVries

 ``One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means.''

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
 Dave
 
 The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
 people who we've never, ever seen post before--the been meaning to
 try this Plan 9 thing brigade, etc.
 
 John
 

I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.

Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are too 
busy to stop and talk.

If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have 
caused, I wouldn't have posted it.

Re: [9fans] Mousing is faster than typing but users do not believe it

[David Leimbach]

Who are you replying to again?  This thread has become total nonsense.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 4:03 PM, simon softnet ph.soft...@gmail.com wrote:

 I still think your contribution is null and irritating.
 First of all, it's too long and it doesn't say anything of essence.
 What's all this mumbling about your girlfriend and gamers?
 
 Thanks for suggesting that I try and use vim in unix.
 I am 26 years old now. I have been using vim since I was 17 if I remember 
 correctly,
 when, by the way, I was developing exploits for the x86 architecture as a 
 hobby, and
 and now I am a post graduate student in Computer Science.
 I have never developed anything in windows, and I rarely even do anything in 
 windows,
 if that says something to you about my familiarity with the unix console  
 the keyboard.
 
 I just happened to stumble upon Acme, and I gave it a try.
 After nearly a decade of using vim, I decided to ditch it for Acme (which i 
 have been using for the past month),
 because I do think it's better for my purposes.
 
 If your read Rob Pike's paper on acme, you might find that there is some 
 credibility behind the argument
 that mousing is sometimes smoother for programming, than exclusively relying 
 on keyboard shortcuts.
 Now quit your frothing at the mouth because you discovered Linux and vim.
 
 Simon
 
 
 On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:42 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:47 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote:
 
  On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
  http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
  Dave
 
  The best part of these kind of threads is how they bring out all the
  people who we've never, ever seen post before--the been meaning to
  try this Plan 9 thing brigade, etc.
 
  John
 
 
 I wrote up the wiki for the plan 9 guruplug port, and I do stuff with it.
 
 Don't assume that quiet means we aren't using plan 9.  It might mean we are 
 too busy to stop and talk.
 
 If I would have known the religious poop tossing that this link would have 
 caused, I wouldn't have posted it.
 

Re: [9fans] Oh shell

[David Leimbach]

It's pretty nice.  I started playing around with it yesterday.

I'm a fan of stuff like scheme shell too, so this just seems like it could
be another one of these cool power tools!

Dave

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Rodrigo Miranda rodrigo.mira...@acm.orgwrote:


 I saw this at hacker news. It's a shell written in go. Seems nice.

 https://github.com/michaelmacinnis/oh

 https://github.com/michaelmacinnis/ohCheers!

 Rodrigo Miranda

 ``The zen master hit me in the head.

 I told him:

   If you keep hitting me in the head,

  I won't be able to learn a thing!

 He hit me again.

   In

   the

  head.´´ (Rodrigo Miranda)

Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On May 18, 2011, at 5:24 AM, blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote:

 On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:
 Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
 accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
 
 The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business 
 for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or 
 useful for many. -- Rob Tannen
 
 When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for 
 excision, based on the customers' actual needs -- Rob Tannen
 
 I'm confused.  Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
 we are doing with a research system?  It seems to me that what
 we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven
 primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating.  I personally
 get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser.
 However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment
 was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a
 PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js).  I couldn't help
 but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable
 device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal
 for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to
 build a Dis VM in js, or...  It's true that utility can be a meaningful
 motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about
 is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet.  Like most of us, I
 worry about what customers want in my day job.  But what
 customers want is boring to the point of suicide.  To borrow from
 the bard; There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt
 of in the PC/Web philosophy.  Plan 9 and Inferno are the best
 places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty.
 
 BLS
 
 

I don't think there's any real constraints.  Bottom line is the code is there 
and it's pretty nice.  You can do what you want.  If you seek outside approval 
to chase an idea, you've already failed the most important person in the 
equation - yourself.

Who cares what anyone else thinks?

Or as Homer Simpson said, I'm sure Einstein turned himself all kinds of colors 
before he invented the light bulb.

Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?

[David Leimbach]

JavaScript is not java...  

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2011, at 11:46 AM, a z rhoyerb...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy  
 project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw 
 boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right? 
 
 I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if 
 I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it 
 start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it. 
 
 On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com 
 wrote:
  What the hell? They're not saying, Screw running on hardware, let's
  just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser, they want
  to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
  you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
  9) these days.
 
  As fgb would say, relax. No Bell Labs people have even commented on
  this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
  damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
  going to downgrade Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
  when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
  connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
 
 relax, man.  i understand peter's perspective.  and i don't think
 it's unreasonable.  just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
 
 on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
 than x86) might be interesting.  drawterm has always been a clever
 hack.  it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
 portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
 
 one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
 in plan 9.  clearly they will have a browser.
 
 not that i'm signing up or anything.  :-)
 
 - erik
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/␤⎺└␊/⎼␤⎺#

Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?

[David Leimbach]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:58 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote:

 On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote:
  Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing
  something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less
  hard.
 

 Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas
 of concern:

  Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
  situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
  other person's/party's pc or laptop?


Instead of a traditional web server platform for web applications this
could be an alternative deployment target.

Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a native interface in JavaScript.

JavaScript front end to a distributed Go application on Plan 9 sounds like a
potentially useful medium to work in.



  Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
  javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...

  I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
  time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
  be appealing to non-plan 9 users.


The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks like
a useful application?

I don't think Linux was appealing to very many people before it was obvious
one could host a cheap http server on it either.



  The web is the key.


That's part of it likely, but I think we have to be able to imagine how Plan
9 makes something easier for someone with a web browser.  Technology in
search of a use is almost always the wrong way to go, but I think it did
work out in Linux's case.

Dave


 Cheers

Re: [9fans] Additional compilers under 9vx.OSX

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 12, 2011, at 8:51 AM, com...@panix.com (Greg Comeau) wrote:

 In article a260bb06-00d9-43bc-89ae-6f5b08cb3...@gmail.com,
 David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Apr 11, 2011, at 3:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
 the way to do this is
   cd /sys/src; objtype=arm mk  mk clean
 
 Just getting to play with this... had to do some copying of some of
 the files first among other setbacks...  ok,  plain mk asks what to make,
 and so I tried 'mk all' which is saying 5c does not exist, but
 that's one of the things I want it to build.
 
 bad instructions.  sorry.  that should have been 
 
   cd /sys/src/cmd; mk 5^(a l c)^.install
   cd /sys/src; objtype=arm mk install  mk clean
 
 - erik
 
 I posted some on the wiki about how I got the guruplug working for me...  
 
 Thanks.  I tried google'ing but don't see to be able to find
 where that is.  Please advise, thanks.
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Guruplug/index.html
 -- 
 Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta!
 Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
 World Class Compilers:  Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
 Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
 

Re: [9fans] Additional compilers under 9vx.OSX

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 11, 2011, at 3:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:

 the way to do this is
cd /sys/src; objtype=arm mk  mk clean
 
 Just getting to play with this... had to do some copying of some of
 the files first among other setbacks...  ok,  plain mk asks what to make,
 and so I tried 'mk all' which is saying 5c does not exist, but
 that's one of the things I want it to build.
 
 bad instructions.  sorry.  that should have been 
 
cd /sys/src/cmd; mk 5^(a l c)^.install
cd /sys/src; objtype=arm mk install  mk clean
 
 - erik
 
I posted some on the wiki about how I got the guruplug working for me...  

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 6, 2011, at 1:27 PM, Joel C. Salomon joelcsalo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:33:30 PM UTC-4, David  Leimbach wrote:
 What we need is an OS port of Plan 9 to Go that can run hosted on another OS 
 or natively.
 
 InfernGo?
 
 Fuego.
 

+9!

 --Joel
 

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

 The number of people who want to run Go on Plan 9
 is already small.  The number of people who want to
 run Go on Plan 9 on 9vx is smaller yet.  At that point
 why not just run Go directly?

 9vx is a nice hack but still a hack.

 Russ

 What we need is an OS port of Plan 9 to Go that can run hosted on another
OS or natively.

InfernGo?

Dave

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote:

  All that Microsoft thinking (99.9%-thinking, if you find the other label
  offensive) to avoid adding a minute, one-off change to the Go runtime?

 It is not a minute, one-off change.
 I don't know how to fix it to cope with tiny virtual address spaces
 like those in 9vx.  It's not something I anticipated when I wrote the
 allocator, and it's not something I really want to spend time on
 for such a tiny fraction of use cases.  We have limited time.
 We don't even support OS X 10.5 anymore.


I'm not sure apple support OS X 10.5 anymore either?  I think that's why the
OS updates are so inexpensive :-)  (what was it like 40 bucks to go from
10.5 to 10.6?)



 The best answer might be to make USTKTOP 1GB.

 Russ

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:36 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote:

   What we need is an OS port of Plan 9 to Go that can run hosted on
 another
  OS or natively.
 
  InfernGo?

 huh?

 - erik


Inferno-like Go based OS (instead of Limbo??)

Not necessarily with any kind of virtual machine but it could be a neat
project...

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

2011/4/5 andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com

  InfernGo?

 Goribund ;)


What a positive sounding project name!

Re: [9fans] Go Plan 9

[David Leimbach]

So wait... We can get the toolchain built on plan 9. Or we can target plan 9 
via cross compiler?  Either way is pretty awesome!  Nice work!

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2011, at 4:00 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote:

 Congratulations on the hard work and thanks for seeing this through!
 

Re: [9fans] cores a go go

[David Leimbach]

Nice!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 30, 2011, at 9:39 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:

 i rerolled the atom cd today with some noticable changes
 for mp systems.
 
 1.  apic handling has changed.  the mp code can now handle
 apic ids  7.  this can affect machines with fewer than 8 cores,
 especially intel 2xxx-series and xeon 56xx-series processors.
 
 2.  the apic code has a hack to find intel ht processors, even
 when there is no mp table entry.  (as per usual.)  you might
 see twice as many cores.
 
 3.  msi interrupts are now the default.  see apic(3).
 http://www.quanstro.net/magic/man2html/3/apic
 
 this has been tested on a variety of phenom ii, opteron c32, intel 5[56]xx.
 intel core i7, intel atom, and pentium iv systems from 2-24 cores.
 but i'd be interested in hearing of any success/failure.
 
 - erik
 

Re: [9fans] acme Local command on p9p

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 25, 2011, at 7:44 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Friday 25 of February 2011 16:32:27 you wrote:
 How about reading /proc/$pid/environ (where $pid is the shell spawned for
 command execution) before the $pid exits and transfering all the
 environment variables back to the Acme's own environment?
 
 plan9port runs in more places than linux.
 
 and which ones don't provide /proc/$pid/environ?

Mac
 
 -- 
 dexen deVries
 
 [[[↓][→]]]
 
 how does a C compiler get to be that big? what is all that code doing?
 
 iterators, string objects, and a full set of C macros that ensure
 boundary conditions and improve interfaces.
 
 ron minnich, in response to Charles Forsyth
 
 http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/90
 

Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2011, at 5:45 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Friday, February 18, 2011 02:29:54 pm erik quanstrom wrote:
 so this is a complete waste of time if forks  getpids.
 and THREAD_GETMEM must allocate memory.  so
 the first call isn't exactly cheep.  aren't they optimizing
 for bad programming?
 
 not only that, ... from getpid(2)
 
 NOTES
   Since glibc version 2.3.4, the  glibc  wrapper  function  for 
 getpid() caches  PIDs,  so  as  to  avoid additional system calls when a
 process calls getpid() repeatedly.  Normally this caching is invisible,
 but its correct  operation  relies  on  support  in  the  wrapper
 functions for fork(2), vfork(2), and clone(2): if an application bypasses 
 the  glibc wrappers  for  these  system  calls by using syscall(2), then a
 call to getpid() in the child will return the wrong value (to  be 
 precise:  it will return the PID of the parent process).  See also
 clone(2) for dis-
 
 which boggles my mind: why would getpid() need to be optimized for in the 
 first 
 place?


LMbench?

 
 Konqueror 4.5.5 (browser) calls it once per short session (few tabs)
 Firefox 4 (browser) calls it about once per tab
 openssh calls it once or twice per session
 bash calls it once
 lsof, find do not call it at all.
 
 what does call getpid() often? @_@
 
 
 anyway, it looks a bit like library lock-in to me: ``your app better perform 
 _every_ syscall through glibc, or else'' -- or else strange things may 
 happen, 
 eh?
 
 
 -- 
 dexen deVries
 
 [[[↓][→]]]
 
 how does a C compiler get to be that big? what is all that code doing?
 
 iterators, string objects, and a full set of C macros that ensure
 boundary conditions and improve interfaces.
 
 ron minnich, in response to Charles Forsyth
 
 http://9fans.net/archive/2011/02/90
 

Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely

[David Leimbach]

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Bakul Shah bakul+pl...@bitblocks.com wrote:

 On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:46:51 PST Rob Pike robp...@gmail.com  wrote:
 The more you optimize, the better the odds you slow your program down.
 Optimization adds instructions and often data, in one of the
 paradoxes of engineering.  In time, then, what you gain by
 optimizing increases cache pressure and slows the whole thing down.
 
 You need a feedback loop.  Uncontrolled anything is a recipe
 for disaster. Optimizations need to be `judicious' but that
 requires experience, profiling and understanding but the
 trend seems to be away from that.
 
 On a slightly different tangent, 9p is simple but it doesn't
 handle latency very well.  To make efficient use of long fat
 pipes you need more complex mechanisms -- there is no getting 
 around that fact. rsync  hg in spite of their complexity
 beat the pants off replica. Their cache behavior is not very
 relevant here.  Similarly file readahead is usually a win.
 
 C++ inlines a lot because microbenchmarks improve, but inline every
 modest function in a big program and you make the binary much bigger
 and blow the i-cache.
 
 That's a compiler fault. Surely modern compilers need to be
 cache aware? ideally a smart compiler treats `inline' as a hint
 at most, just like `register'.
 

Well how does template expansion affect all of this?  I've heard in 
conversations that C++ is pretty register hungry which makes me think lots of 
inlining happens behind the scenes.  Then again that's an implementation 
detail, except maybe for templates.