Re: [9fans] sam and 'here documents' on Unix [WAS: Re: Making multiple changes to dot using sam -d]

[Mart Zirnask]

Sorry for the late reply -- great hint, thanks very much.

In a perfect world, I would need a solution that also works on Windows
(with the ported unix/p9 tools), but I'll probably build the
sam9f-unix port by iru- [1] for now.

Btw, can anybody point me to the initial ^ and/or _ command patch?
In which 9front release were they added?

1: https://github.com/iru-/sam9f-unix

Thanks and best,
Mart

On 12/05/2022, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com  wrote:
> hmm, interesting. ^ is indeed very useful;
> making it work in sam -d is probably the
> correct thing to do but here's a quick hack.
> (9front specific, tho you can probably figure
> out another way to pretend you typed.)
> 
> umbraticus
> 
> ; fn f{echo ,x/red/c/blue >/dev/kbdin}
> ; sam -d
>  -.
> a
> I hired a red
> redemptionist
> .
> !f
> ,x/red/c/blue
> ,
> I hiblue a blue
> blueemptionist

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[9fans] sam and 'here documents' on Unix [WAS: Re: Making multiple changes to dot using sam -d]

[Mart Zirnask]

A related question:
9front sam has the ^ command, which makes it easy to apply multiple
sam commands to the dot from a script, e.g:

#!/bin/rc
cat << END
,x/red/ c/blue/
,x/yellow/ c/green/
END

How does one accomplish this in oldschool Unix sam -d without the ^
command, and also without using ssam?

'Here dcuments' work, because the following works fine on my shell
(Busybox sh, not rc):

$ sam -d file.txt << END
,x/red/ c/blue/
,x/yellow/ c/green/
w
q
END

However, piping dot to that script from within sam -d (using the |
command) ends up with:
sh: script.sh: not found
?warning: exit status not 0

...and also an empty (deleted) sam buffer.

Replacing 'cat' with other options, e.g. 'sam -d "$*"', eventually
gave a "broken pipe" message. And, again, in all cases, an empty
buffer.

So, no ^ command, no ssam, but want to use substitutions from 'here
documents' -- where am I going wrong?
Many thanks,
Mart

On 11/05/2022, revcomni...@gmail.com  wrote:
> Thank you! I was erring in that I failed to repeat x.

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Re: [9fans] New to plan9

[Mart Zirnask]

Also, if you want an overview of the system, Nemo's book "Introduction
to Operating Systems Abstractions Using Plan 9 from Bell Labs" is an
awesome resource.
http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/9.intro.pdf

Best,
Mart

On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 at 13:14, Keith Gibbs  wrote:
>
> Yeah, don't switch for simple tools like mothra, but as you learn
> more, there are strengths to both.
>
> I ran the "9miller" Pi version for a bit and as a retro computer
> collector and old software junkie, I enjoyed myself, but I played with
> VMs and then got some baremetal installs of 9front going.
>
> 9legacy is fantastic for the "historical preservation" end of things
> and it totally usable.  I found myself more and more drawn to 9front
> because it is more about *using* Plan 9 for either specialized purpose
> or daily driver usage.  I personally run a 9front cpu+auth server on
> my network with 9p/drawterm ports forwarded from my fiber hookup.  In
> that way, I always have access to my 9 box from the office, from home,
> from anywhere.  I use it for writing, C, Go, IRC, as well as a
> webserver.  Also, since it is on my network, I can basically access
> any machine of mine via sshfs or 9p at any time, making it a Rosetta
> Stone of sorts.  Most new software made by the community tends to be
> developed with 9front in mind/on 9front, so if you are looking for
> things like YouTube playback, security, a more modern browser (netsurf
> port), esoteric programming languages, etc.  you will have an easier
> time on 9front.
>
> That being said, some really old stuff doesn't quite work the same as
> old old 9, which can get annoying if you find docs or software from
> decades ago, but that's less important for me personally.
>
> So get your feet wet!  If you find you like the retro computing aspect
> most, 9legacy is a great distro.  If you are most interested in
> modern/more experimental stuff, 9front is awesome.  That being said,
> 9front is *not that far* from Plan 9 from Bell Labs 4th edition,
> especially compared to Harvey, Jehanne, or even Inferno in a lot of
> ways.  Folks from both (actually *all*) communities are frequent
> readers/users of this mailing list.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> -pixelheresy
>
> Quoth joseph turco :
> > Your quite right, I wouldn't switch to 9front for that reason, but is nice
> > that 9front does have more secure protocols in place. I stuck with bell
> > labs because the RPI iso was right there I wanted to see the OS from the
> > beginning. Its also why I have the bootable 9legacy USB for my old desktop,
> > but that's sitting around until I can figure out the OS, so then I can get
> > it running how I want on there, and link up the systems so that the desktop
> > acts as a shared fs.

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[9fans] sam -d for DOS (FreeDOS)?

[Mart Zirnask]

Hello,
Has there ever been a port of sam -d for DOS?
I tried the win32 port (pf9) on FreeDOS, but it didn't work.

btw this link on sam's homepage (pf9 for 64-bit Windows) is dead:
https://bitbucket.org/mtrS/pf9

Thanks and best,
Mart

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Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter

[Mart Zirnask]

> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over.

Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the
essay where he discusses this?

Thanks,
Mart

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Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Mart Zirnask]

On 15/04/2019, Marshall Conover  wrote:
> For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to
> dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or
> working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to
> see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an
> infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table,
> could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being
> even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm
> left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9.

Semi-related, but this reminds me of a Vim plugin, Microviche,
that allows one to "pan and zoom through text":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YNiPUTGO28
https://github.com/q335r49/microviche

I'd say Microviche rpresents a text editing paradigm entirely of its
own just like Acme.
I remember having wanted to emulate something similar within Acme
(the feeling of scrolling text panes/columns horizontally), but I
didn't really try.

Mart

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[Mart Zirnask]

Regarding Forth systems, this might also be of interest:
http://cosy.com

"CoSy is the evolute of a life lived in noteComputing environments
built in Ken Iverson's APL and Arthur Whitney's K now built Ron
Aaron's open to the chip Reva Forth"

Mart



On 28/06/2018, Tyga  wrote:
> That's very neat !
>
> You might want to consider using a derivative of that PDP-11 work in a IoT
> (Internet of Things) context.
>
> IoT devices really need a better programming environment than that provided
> by Arduino development tools.
>
> On 28 June 2018 at 02:20, Brian L. Stuart  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6/20/18, Ethan A. Gardener  wrote:
>> > but on the back burner is a
>> > Forth-based project; a sort of operating system where the
>> > primary interface to all tasks is a Forth interpreter. So
>> > far, I've written the basics of a text editor. It's
>> > *very* little code!
>>
>> I love seeing this idea coming back around.  Way back
>> in college, one of my senior projects was a little OS on
>> the PDP-11 that was done exactly this way.  The app
>> language and the command language were a Forth
>> implementation I had done out of curiosity in my freshman
>> year.  About a year and half ago, I got it running again,
>> first in simh, then on a little LSI-11 in those cute little
>> BA11-VA boxes.  It was wild seeing that running again
>> after over 30 years, and I found and fixed a concurrency
>> bug. :)  One of my students did (mostly just started on)
>> a project his past term that's gotten me to thinking a
>> little about reimplementing the whole thing on a Pi.
>>
>> BLS
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[Mart Zirnask]

On 21/06/2018, Ethan A. Gardener  wrote:
>... I no longer have a desk of
> the right proportions to make mouse use comfortable, and can no longer bend
> over a laptop for hours on end, (a Thinkpad with 3 buttons,) text editing in
> Plan 9 has become unpleasant. I could patch Samterm and Rio to make it more
> comfortable, but it's not worth it.

Would you mind elaborating on these ideas?

Something I've been thinking along the same lines:
Inferno's shell allows one to add custom buttons to a shell window.
See more here:
http://debu.gs/entries/interlude-inferno-at-work

This could be used to add shortcuts to common/more complicated text
editing tasks in Inferno's sh + sam -d.
I'm not sure if this would free one from using a 3-button mouse, though.

Mart

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[Mart Zirnask]

hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 9vx only works on 32bit linux userland. and cinap reminds us that 9vx
> is not synced to latest improvements in 9front kernel.

Thanks. I was planning to try out 9front with 9vx; now I won't bother.
9legacy has been running fine for me.

Mart

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[Mart Zirnask]

On 14/06/2018, Daniel Camoles  wrote:
>
> Well I don't know if it solves your problem, but you could run openbsd from
>
> inside vmx, and then run a browser like chrome in there. Works perfectly.
> You probably could substitute openbsd for linux or other, vmx is fully
> functional.
>

+1, and there's also good old 9vx:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Vx32

I'm typing this on a Thinkpad T42 with Tiny Core Linux and 9vx.

I'm reluctant to throw out technology that works and serves my basic
needs (and has IPS screen + good keyboard + quiet CF card in place of
hard disk), so this is the only computer I have.

I'm a part-time writer and radio producer with no CS background, so I
even use this machine for producing 1-hour radio shows for Estonian
Public Broadcasting. (Thank you, Non Daw!: http://non.tuxfamily.org).

I just love the "zen" of sam (and, occasionally, Acme) as a writing
tool. Also, the idea of "everything is a file" kind of grows on you,
intellectually.

P9P needed too much fiddling for Tiny Core Linux (and thus also broke
the simplicity and extreme minimalism of that Linux distro for me). So
I eventually opted for 9vx.

Tiny Core Linux boots into RAM, so Chromium and Firefox run
surprisingly fast on that old machine, for my occasional, mostly
"journalistic" needs. And it also has Dillo, which I've grown to love.

That said, I would switch to 9front + vmx immediately. (I even
conceptualized an awk-based "suite" for audio montage for Acme, using
the "everything is a file" paradigm".)

Unfortunately my Intel 2200bg wifi card doesn't seem to work in
9front. Has somebody maybe finished rsc's driver in the meanwhile?

I would also like to thank sl for all the 9artwork. I think this level
of aesthetics and intellectual humor is unmatched in the world of OS
"marketing"; this is probably what drew me in in the first place.

So 9front is an OS (isn't it?), but it's also a project of conceptual art. :)

Ah, also:
my dream machine would be a Alphasmart Neo device with BSD + sam -d:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart

Unfortunately, as I understand, porting BSD for that is not so easy.

Best,
Mart

Re: [9fans] ReMarkable!

[Mart Zirnask]

On 13/02/2018, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> On 2/13/18, Daniel Camolês  wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> Maybe it's not impossible that someone would come up with a way to input
>> text using a pen over a screen that's even more efficient and convenient
>> than a keyboard. So far, such technology just doesn't exist.
>>
> Stenography (short-hand)?
>
Yes -- "everything is a line"!
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/06/yeah-i-still-use-shorthand-and-a-smartpen/373281/

[9fans] MA - a single-window Acme clone in Tcl/TK

[Mart Zirnask]

Hi, I stumbled across this minimalist single-window Acme clone:
http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ma.tar.gz

It's written by Felix Winkelmann, the creator of Chicken Scheme.
The source is dated 2016-11-17, so apparently it is recent work.

I also took a screenshot. As you can see, windows are managed
by the OS:
https://s28.postimg.org/vujqgeiq5/ma_screen.jpg

The author says on his homepage that he's using it for daily work.

Best,
mart

Re: [9fans] Musings on Interfaces

[Mart Zirnask]

There is also a very actively maintained stand-alone Unix fork for sam:
https://github.com/deadpixi/sam

It has several additional keybindings, a command ("b") to perform a
fuzzy match on file names and, most recently -- colors!
(Be sure to look at the screenshot.)

Sam is really interesting. Cheers,
mart,
non-techie and newb

On 2 September 2016 at 01:56, Winston Kodogo  wrote:
> Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love many things about
> Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The structural regular
> expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such are my
> limitations, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro.
>
> On 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile  wrote:
>>
>> I think I’ve been a member of 9fans for its entire history. The earliest
>> saved 9fans email in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the time I
>> have not said much. Given that the list isn’t very busy these days, and that
>> I’m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I would post some of my
>> seemingly random musings.
>>
>> Today I’m thinking about Plan 9’s interfaces.
>>
>> The reason for thinking about those is that I’ve just switch back to
>> sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change is
>> as good as a rest. I’ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six days a week
>> lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme. I’ve
>> been using it for many years and it is a great tool.
>>
>> The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office in
>> Redwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the
>> effect that “you are one of those.” He uses sam as do many of the folks who
>> created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I had did a poll
>> years ago but can’t seem to find the results. As did I for many years, even
>> after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a version of it working on my
>> Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the samterm and all. It was
>> the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure at Bell Labs in 1990.
>> Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Winterbottom and his Alef
>> language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like rio(1) without the
>> bumpers one can use to move and resize the window.
>>
>> I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did
>> have modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not to
>> do acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that
>> part of the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a
>> shell variable that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconscious
>> chording stopped.
>>
>> I don’t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other way around.
>> Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And that
>> difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use acme, I
>> mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It becomes a
>> kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like sed and
>> awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using acme. I
>> had a similar thing happen when in the 1980’s I dropped vi for ed. I used ed
>> until the 1990’s when I was able to switch to sam full time.
>>
>> But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it
>> and acme.
>>
>> In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window
>> rather than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command
>> language in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feels
>> different. There is something to be said for the convenience of the command
>> windows in sam.
>>
>> If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the time
>> it took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while
>> working. Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took about
>> a week to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a function of
>> how much I used sam in the past.
>>
>> I’m very grateful to still be using these tools. It’s a very personal
>> thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and the old shell,
>> and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, both acme and
>> sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded them and
>> followed them.
>>
>>   Brantley Coile
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] 9front sam in plan9port.

[Mart Zirnask]

looks like Rob King added ctrl-b (ctrl-k in his case) to deadpixi's
sam about a month ago. cool. :)
https://github.com/deadpixi/sam/commit/cdbdf04093a76cd3634e59e127bfd8f7a5083b20#diff-22f470141ff9a8838525c57e45bcdb63

On 23 May 2016 at 10:25, Mart Zirnask <martzirn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wasn't able to get it working remotely because the additional 'rsam'
>> command doesn't seem to be built. I haven't looked at that yet though.
>
> I can't confirm for now if it was built for me on Tiny Core Linux. The
> source and makefile for 'rsam' are included and also documented,
> though.
> it also doesn't have the 'E' command.
>
> btw, is 9front's ctrl-b patch (for switching to the command window)
> available somewhere?
> I'm really interested in having that keyboard shortcut in this version of sam.
>
> best,
> Mart

Re: [9fans] 9front sam in plan9port.

[Mart Zirnask]

> I wasn't able to get it working remotely because the additional 'rsam'
> command doesn't seem to be built. I haven't looked at that yet though.

I can't confirm for now if it was built for me on Tiny Core Linux. The
source and makefile for 'rsam' are included and also documented,
though.
it also doesn't have the 'E' command.

btw, is 9front's ctrl-b patch (for switching to the command window)
available somewhere?
I'm really interested in having that keyboard shortcut in this version of sam.

best,
Mart

Re: [9fans] 9front sam in plan9port.

[Mart Zirnask]

There is also a standalone Unix port of sam that includes chording,
xft, custom colors and a few other hacks. It's a pleasure to work
with; I've even come to prefer the initial, black and white UI.

http://www.deadpixi.com/an-updated-version-of-sam

On 22 May 2016 at 08:29, Iruatã Souza  wrote:
> This is just a port of the 9front version of sam to p9p. As you can see, it
> hasn't been updated in a while. But I can do that if anybody wants it.
>
> Em 21/05/2016 4:50 PM,  escreveu:
>
> #define chording 0  /* code here for reference but it causes deadlocks
> */
>
> I suppose the bug is still messing around.
> I'll give it a try to the 9front version.
>
> Thanks for the info!
>
>

[9fans] simulating two-pane scrolling in acme?

[Mart Zirnask]

Hi,
What's a simple way to simulate two-pane view and scrolling in p9p acme?

E.g. I would first open file.txt in two columns like this:

line 1   | line 4
line 2   | line 5
line 3   | line 6

And now I'd like to scroll down the "whole page",
so the next screen I'm facing would look like this:

line 7  | line 10
line 8  | line 11
line 9  | line 12

I've looked into acmeevent,
but as I understand, it doesn't register scrolling behaviour.

Alternatively, could this also be accomplished only by using sam's
command language? (I'm fascinated by it but only learning the basics
at this point.)

Thanks very much for any pointers,
mart,
p9p newcomer