Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:22 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: 40 years on, you'd think someone would deal with it. The point I was trying to make is that it was realised early on (eg, when time-sharing at universities) that a shared /tmp was a problem. Hacks such as +s or special schemes for allocating files don't really address the problem. Now look at that number: 40. Four decades. During that time there has been any amount of foolish crud added to this or that kernel, distribution ,graphics subsystem, standards, ... but instead of fixing it after 4 0 years, we get notes explaining that it's the application's business, in this case the shell, or perhaps the underlying library, to try to address security issues instead of fixing it, once for all. After 40 years (more than a generation).
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Now look at that number: 40. Four decades. During that time there has been any amount of foolish crud added to this or that kernel, distribution ,graphics subsystem, standards, ... but instead of fixing it after 4 0 years, we get notes explaining that it's the application's business, in this case the shell, or perhaps the underlying library, to try to address security issues instead of fixing it, once for all. After 40 years (more than a generation). +1. this is really an important point. think of all the mega person years you could save by doing the simple, systemic things to make the job of maintaining system easier. - erik
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
On 12/06/2014 01:41 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: instead of fixing it, once for all. After 40 years (more than a generation). +1. this is really an important point. think of all the mega person years you could save by doing the simple, systemic things to make the job of maintaining system easier. Think of all the mega person years in... picking one example... the managed security services industry. Mega *billable* person years... Folks, as long as those who care about the integrity of the world's information infrastructure work at the direction of those who do not, nothing will get fixed. -- Wes Kussmaul The Authenticity Institute 738 Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 office +1 781 790 1674 mobile +1 781 330 1881 “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” - The Serpent
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
As in I have ties older than your /tmp. On 7 December 2014 at 05:29, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:22 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: 40 years on, you'd think someone would deal with it. The point I was trying to make is that it was realised early on (eg, when time-sharing at universities) that a shared /tmp was a problem. Hacks such as +s or special schemes for allocating files don't really address the problem. Now look at that number: 40. Four decades. During that time there has been any amount of foolish crud added to this or that kernel, distribution ,graphics subsystem, standards, ... but instead of fixing it after 4 0 years, we get notes explaining that it's the application's business, in this case the shell, or perhaps the underlying library, to try to address security issues instead of fixing it, once for all. After 40 years (more than a generation).
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
+1. this is really an important point. think of all the mega person years you could save by doing the simple, systemic things to make the job of maintaining system easier. You are missing an even more important issue here: imagine how much beneficial impact such a radical break with tradition would have had on the mindset of the community! But we're dealing with conservatism here and not with measurable improvements. Also, and I am on Charles' side on this, _who_ should have done this? Sun Microsystems, Microsoft? And how do we know that it has not been done, but was rejected? The technology is not driven by need but, surprise, surprise, by greed. And, most importantly, it is a complex blend of science and engineering with no moral compass and plenty of money. Is it surprising that it fails to address problems without profitable solutions? My beef with Charles, by the way - and I must have been guilty of the same sin as he - is not that he is mistaken, but that he formulated his criticism in an ambiguous manner, where it is necessary that it should be very clear which of two alternatives he is criticising. I simply wish there was less of that, specially on a mailing list where English is not everyone's mother tongue. Sometimes I can't resist the temptation to bring this to everyone's attention. No offence was intended and if some was taken, I apologize. Lucio.
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
+1. this is really an important point. think of all the mega person years you could save by doing the simple, systemic things to make the job of maintaining system easier. You are missing an even more important issue here: imagine how much beneficial impact such a radical break with tradition would have had on the mindset of the community! But we're dealing with conservatism here and not with measurable improvements. Also, and I am on Charles' side on this, _who_ should have done this? Sun Microsystems, Microsoft? conservatism is not the reason. the reason is lack of clear thinking. like the summit guys suggesting pipe1. by the way, i set up an automounter for irix 3 and 4 way back when that set up private temp directories, among other things. it's even been done. - erik
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Aren't they talking about rc when running on their operating system? I'd still fix /tmp, myself. It does nothing but fester. Even the PDP-11 it was a nuisance. 40 years on, you'd think someone would deal with it.
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Well I hope he has fun fixing a sandwich. Your words ... because Debian people are not very good at doing things correctly. On 5 December 2014 at 15:14, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: Quoting Bruce Ellis bruce.el...@gmail.com: Don't these people have better things to do than finding non-bugs in systems they don't understand? brucee This bug is being reported against 9base, which is a port of stuff to unix similar to (and based on) plan9port. He is reporting it to 9fans and 9trouble because Debian people are not very good at doing things correctly. Fortunately he seems to accidentally have sent his message to some folks who might care in addition to the ones who don't. khm
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
I'd still fix /tmp, myself. It does nothing but fester. Even the PDP-11 it was a nuisance. 40 years on, you'd think someone would deal with it. Are you being intentionally ambiguous, Charles? /tmp/ in Unix (my guess) or /tmp/ in Plan 9 (quantum forbid!) as Unix aficionados may choose to interpret your comment? You need personal namespaces for the former and, I have no doubt, too much is at stake for those to be much of an option right now - mobile phones notwithstanding (cf. Ubuntu Phone). Lucio. - This email has been scanned by the MxScan Email Security System. -
[9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Hello, I make you pass an open bug report on the Debian bts about rc. I do not know to whom I should speak. The code comes from 9base, who just plan9port, etc. Here is the report [1]: Package: 9base Version: 1:6-6 Severity: important Tags: security Murray McAllister from Red Hat Security Response Team discovered that rc creates temporary files in an insecure way: $ strace -o '| grep /tmp' ./test-heredoc open(/tmp/here217f., O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC|O_LARGEFILE, 0666) = 5 open(/tmp/here217f., O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) = 5 moo unlink(/tmp/here217f.)= 0 As you can see, the filenames are easily predictable, and the O_EXCL flag is missing. [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=737206 Regards, -- Stéphane Aulery #!/usr/lib/plan9/bin/rc cat EOF moo EOF
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Stéphane Aulery saul...@free.fr wrote: discovered that rc creates temporary files in an insecure way: rc was built for a system that made /tmp secure by not sharing it (it's always private to a user and even sometimes to a set of processes). That way not every app has to try to help sustain the pretence that a shared /tmp can really be secured (+s bits, EXCL create, etc..) Obviously the version for Unix will have to change its generation scheme to fit in.
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Don't these people have better things to do than finding non-bugs in systems they don't understand? brucee On 5 December 2014 at 13:33, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Stéphane Aulery saul...@free.fr wrote: discovered that rc creates temporary files in an insecure way: rc was built for a system that made /tmp secure by not sharing it (it's always private to a user and even sometimes to a set of processes). That way not every app has to try to help sustain the pretence that a shared /tmp can really be secured (+s bits, EXCL create, etc..) Obviously the version for Unix will have to change its generation scheme to fit in.
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
+1 On Dec 4, 2014, at 7:08 PM, Bruce Ellis bruce.el...@gmail.com wrote: Don't these people have better things to do than finding non-bugs in systems they don't understand? brucee On 5 December 2014 at 13:33, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Stéphane Aulery saul...@free.fr wrote: discovered that rc creates temporary files in an insecure way: rc was built for a system that made /tmp secure by not sharing it (it's always private to a user and even sometimes to a set of processes). That way not every app has to try to help sustain the pretence that a shared /tmp can really be secured (+s bits, EXCL create, etc..) Obviously the version for Unix will have to change its generation scheme to fit in.
Re: [9fans] Debian bug 737206 - rc shell uses insecurely /tmp
Aren't they talking about rc when running on their operating system? sl
