Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Rui Carmo]

I am curious. What is your fork used for, and can we look at it, or screenshots?On 26 Jan 2024, at 17:03, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
First of all, I have my own fork of plan9 which was/is used by a few hundred users.My fork is based on 9legacy. And I'm really surprised to regularly see this discussion about a 'mainline' and the argumentation against 9front. Fact is : 9legacy provides patches and enhancements from 9front. I don't have a problem with those back ported code which is distributed under an MIT license. I don't use 9front or 9legacy directly but for some time now my own forked systems with different gui (desktop), editors, fontsystem, filesystem and a different coding style cause I prefer object oriented programming with C made possible with a preprocessor which translates to C.I'm not part of 9front neither of 9legacy. I'm following the 9front mailing lists for bug reports or announcements of code interesting enough to port to my system. Some improvements in 9front especially regarding drivers and support for hardware are worth the effort to run a diff and port changes to my system. 9front has a large user group and its natural that needs of such a large community improve hardware support. I use code imported by 9legacy for booting which simplified my fork and made booting on modern hardware possible.If 9legacy is the so called 'mainline' then 9legacy uses also back ported code from 9front. 9legacy is not 4e and it contains code enhancements from other forks of plan9 too.4e is the last official release, 9legacy provides patches and enhancements back ported from forks of plan9. In my opinion 9fans is a meeting point not only for users of plan9 4e but also everyone who uses a fork of plan9. All forks share some code with varying amounts. I have my own fork and you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at the desktop or the boot screen that my fork is based on plan9, 9legacy, 9front as a user if this information wasn't placed due to the MIT license. My system is based on ideas code from plan9, 9legacy, 9fork and indirectly on code from other forks which were back ported by 9legacy this makes me part of the 9fans community like all those who are using plan9 directly or in the form of a port. The owner of plan9 4e - Nokia - relicensed plan9 under an MIT license. Using, forking, changing, distributing plan9 following this new license is something everyone can decide by him-/herself. No one needs any kind of approval from anybody as long as you fulfill the license clauses. My fork is based on plan9 - dot - 9front is based on plan9 - dot - 9legacy is based on 9legacy - dot and this is true for all forks which are related with plan9. By the way the original coders of plan9 also created a fork inferno. All forks are related with plan9. 9fans is a board where those interested in plan9 and its forks can meet an discuss. Whenever I need some information about problems existing in plan9 code I search for earlier posts on this mailing list, when I don't find relevant information I search the mailing list of 9front and others to find hints for solving the problem. I don't like this discussion about 'mainline' and forks on this list. plan9 is MIT licensed and can be used in its original form (if possible on modern hardware) or as a fork. Everyone can fork it and use it as he or she sees fit. I don't use 9front directly and sometimes discussions with people from 9front get irritating but this doesn't change the fact that they have a fork which is based on plan9 with a very good code quality that resembles the original form to an extent that it can be back ported with very small effort. Okay sometimes the effort gets bigger but thats the price you have to pay if you create your own fork and try to use code from another fork.I don't know any members of 9front by person never met any of them. But I don't like the way some on this board are discriminating people who have forked from plan9 or use forked versions. Who do you think you are ?Even the authors of plan9 forked plan9 or wrote user level software for systems to simulate plan9. If forking or changing the way to use plan9 is a crime and the evidence to justify to expel people from the plan9 or 9fans community who is still part of this community you envisioned (Don).  After reading your messages you have also committed this crime by porting plan9 to systems not originally part of the 4e distro. You had to change enhance the code to make it run on new hardware not sharing it doesn't change the fact you made those changes so war you to expel from this message board ? The original authors changed code for their for inferno. They changed code between releases (9P --> 9P2000, ...), they changed even the gui between releases 8 1/2 ==> rio aso. Changing code is no crime as forking isn't thats the way software evolves. If you are a programmer and need changes you code the changes if you can't integrate those changes to the sources than you just created a 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[hiro via 9fans]

the few remaining "original Labs' Plan 9" people anyways all went to
concentrate on golang. so if you wanna hang out with them, they have a
very big and active community, too.
it keeps a lot of the core spirit behind plan9 alive, just that it
abstracts away the operating system layer. i might not like the
latter, but i can relate to people who want to engage with this, just
go for it. they are not coming back for 9front, maybe they are even
happy anybody sees more value in their old produce than they
themselves... though they never quite say so. :P

On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 2:25 AM Vester "Vic" Thacker
 wrote:
>
> I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who took the time to provide 
> their valuable feedback. I fully acknowledge that there appears to be limited 
> interest in the proposal. Your time and assistance are greatly appreciated.
>
> --vic
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Vester "Vic" Thacker]

I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who took the 
time to provide their valuable feedback. I fully acknowledge that there 
appears to be limited interest in the proposal. Your time and assistance
 are greatly appreciated.

--vic
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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[g_patrickb via 9fans]

If the complaint is that the forks of Plan 9 from Bell Labs are not "mainline" 
because they are not the original Labs' Plan 9, then damn the creators of Plan 
9 for creating their own C compiler and not using mainline C.

And damn those who did not stick with K C and demanded ANSI C and ISO C.

The base of Coraid is Plan 9, but it has been modified. PIX firewall. Don 
better call Brantley Coile.

Scratch those ports from Erik Quanstrom from 9atom.


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ibrahim via 9fans]

First of all, I have my own fork of plan9 which was/is used by a few hundred 
users.

My fork is based on 9legacy. And I'm really surprised to regularly see this 
discussion about a 'mainline' and the argumentation against 9front. Fact is : 
9legacy provides patches and enhancements from 9front. I don't have a problem 
with those back ported code which is distributed under an MIT license. 

I don't use 9front or 9legacy directly but for some time now my own forked 
systems with different gui (desktop), editors, fontsystem, filesystem and a 
different coding style cause I prefer object oriented programming with C made 
possible with a preprocessor which translates to C.

I'm not part of 9front neither of 9legacy. I'm following the 9front mailing 
lists for bug reports or announcements of code interesting enough to port to my 
system. Some improvements in 9front especially regarding drivers and support 
for hardware are worth the effort to run a diff and port changes to my system. 
9front has a large user group and its natural that needs of such a large 
community improve hardware support. I use code imported by 9legacy for booting 
which simplified my fork and made booting on modern hardware possible.

If 9legacy is the so called 'mainline' then 9legacy uses also back ported code 
from 9front. 9legacy is not 4e and it contains code enhancements from other 
forks of plan9 too.

4e is the last official release, 9legacy provides patches and enhancements back 
ported from forks of plan9. In my opinion 9fans is a meeting point not only for 
users of plan9 4e but also everyone who uses a fork of plan9. All forks share 
some code with varying amounts. 

I have my own fork and you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at the desktop 
or the boot screen that my fork is based on plan9, 9legacy, 9front as a user if 
this information wasn't placed due to the MIT license. My system is based on 
ideas code from plan9, 9legacy, 9fork and indirectly on code from other forks 
which were back ported by 9legacy this makes me part of the 9fans community 
like all those who are using plan9 directly or in the form of a port. 

The owner of plan9 4e - Nokia - relicensed plan9 under an MIT license. Using, 
forking, changing, distributing plan9 following this new license is something 
everyone can decide by him-/herself. No one needs any kind of approval from 
anybody as long as you fulfill the license clauses. 

My fork is based on plan9 - dot - 9front is based on plan9 - dot - 9legacy is 
based on 9legacy - dot and this is true for all forks which are related with 
plan9. By the way the original coders of plan9 also created a fork inferno. All 
forks are related with plan9. 9fans is a board where those interested in plan9 
and its forks can meet an discuss. Whenever I need some information about 
problems existing in plan9 code I search for earlier posts on this mailing 
list, when I don't find relevant information I search the mailing list of 
9front and others to find hints for solving the problem. 

I don't like this discussion about 'mainline' and forks on this list. plan9 is 
MIT licensed and can be used in its original form (if possible on modern 
hardware) or as a fork. Everyone can fork it and use it as he or she sees fit. 

I don't use 9front directly and sometimes discussions with people from 9front 
get irritating but this doesn't change the fact that they have a fork which is 
based on plan9 with a very good code quality that resembles the original form 
to an extent that it can be back ported with very small effort. Okay sometimes 
the effort gets bigger but thats the price you have to pay if you create your 
own fork and try to use code from another fork.

I don't know any members of 9front by person never met any of them. But I don't 
like the way some on this board are discriminating people who have forked from 
plan9 or use forked versions. Who do you think you are ?

Even the authors of plan9 forked plan9 or wrote user level software for systems 
to simulate plan9. If forking or changing the way to use plan9 is a crime and 
the evidence to justify to expel people from the plan9 or 9fans community who 
is still part of this community you envisioned (Don).  After reading your 
messages you have also committed this crime by porting plan9 to systems not 
originally part of the 4e distro. You had to change enhance the code to make it 
run on new hardware not sharing it doesn't change the fact you made those 
changes so war you to expel from this message board ? The original authors 
changed code for their for inferno. They changed code between releases (9P --> 
9P2000, ...), they changed even the gui between releases 8 1/2 ==> rio aso. 
Changing code is no crime as forking isn't thats the way software evolves. If 
you are a programmer and need changes you code the changes if you can't 
integrate those changes to the sources than you just created a fork. And as we 
all know plan9 4e was the last official release of 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[noam]

Quoth Edouard Klein :
> I, for one, will attend, barring any incident.

Same!

> I will send my submission in a frenzy panic minutes before the deadline,
> as one usually does.

Hey, same!! :D


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Edouard Klein]

I, for one, will attend, barring any incident.
I will send my submission in a frenzy panic minutes before the deadline,
as one usually does.

"Don A. Bailey"  writes:

> Last I checked (you) were asking for people to sign up. What’s the actual 
> attendee count at this point?
>
>
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 5:33 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
>>
>> Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum
>> for folks like you to figure out how to make this
>> all happen; there's going to be plenty of time
>> between talks as well as hacking days to figure
>> out what code needs to be written, what patches
>> exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins
>> (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out
>> designs, and even get a head start on it.
>>
>> Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers
>> on the details of how you plan to accomplish this.
>>
>> Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
>>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware
>>> of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
>>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
>>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
>>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
>>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
>>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
>>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
>>> passions and expertise.
>>>
>>> The Need for Modernization
>>>
>>> Technological Evolution:
>>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last
>>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's
>>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest 
>>> advancements
>>> in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is 
>>> crucial
>>> to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech
>>> toolkit.
>>>
>>> Security Enhancements:
>>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a 
>>> reality
>>> we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
>>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique 
>>> work
>>> we do from emerging cyber risks.
>>>
>>> Hardware Compatibility:
>>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.
>>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its
>>> usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing,
>>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>>>
>>> Fostering Innovation
>>>
>>> Research and Education:
>>> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has 
>>> always
>>> been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would
>>> re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued
>>> exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with
>>> Plan 9.
>>>
>>> Community Engagement:
>>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
>>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a 
>>> richer
>>> ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5
>>> could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and
>>> innovations.
>>>
>>> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
>>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities,
>>> especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed
>>> systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and
>>> forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>>>
>>> Practical Considerations
>>>
>>> Resource Allocation:
>>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing
>>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective
>>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new
>>> partnerships or funding avenues.
>>>
>>> Backward Compatibility:
>>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and
>>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
>>> charting a course for its future.
>>>
>>> Documentation and Support:
>>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new
>>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will 
>>> aid
>>> in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can
>>> all be proud of.
>>>
>>> Conclusion
>>>
>>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a
>>> reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the
>>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring
>>> Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era.
>>> It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[hiro]

> This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request for

it didn't get displayed as just a simple comment here. maybe you
should fix your email program.

> a 5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am I
> emotional now.

How is this relevant to the technical issue at hand. You should
explain what has been asked and not yourself.

> What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional responses

If emotion is strange to you, please try to stay more technical. lots
of nerds here - no problem. or give it some time, maybe you can open
up when you cease reacting so fast and negatively to everything that
seems new to you.

> for which I have neither time nor interest. And frankly, neither should
> anyone here.

I'm sure you can make very long lists of things you're uninterested
in. But can you try to limit your talking points to things that
wouldn't be on such list?

> Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m
> simply against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I
> personally believe that’s a bad move.

No worries, it is your reasoning, not your motivation that is at question here.
It might give an unjustified bad impression based solely on your error
of judgement.

9legacy already includes lots of 9front patches, and 9front includes
patches that have appeared before on mailinglists or 9legacy. Patches
are shared regularly, even though activity on 9front is much higher in
general.

The projects are all joined by a common history, and anybody who
doesn't like change is free to never pull from any of the forks,
mailinglists, or patch repositories.

> Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you people

I don't see how you being a dude is relevant on the internet.

> have tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole, and waste my
> entire day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it, and because I
> respond with short unemotional statements,

A play on rabbit hole -> glenda lair?
Also, these are the kind of promises that you should be making to
yourself, not to us.

> you somehow think *I’m* the bad
> guy because I won’t devolve into your world.

This is not some beauty contest.

> Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did today
> instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played with my son.
> I cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked at deer outside.
> We listened to music.

I'm extremely glad for you having such non-computer hobbies, and I
will always endorse people to seek out for that in their lives.

> All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses that
> wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being merged.

Why disagree with something that has never been suggested or implied
or thought of or done?

> Who cares?

Are you implying you don't? Then why ask?

> Live your life, man.

So far I believe we are in compliance.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[hiro]

> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

Nobody asked for your trust. Can you please elaborate which part of
9front you consider "messy" ?

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

Tough. ❤️

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 10:51 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> 
> On 1/26/24, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
>> I literally don’t care.
>> 
> Then I don't think you belong here.
> 
> If you believe you can excommunicate the majority of Plan 9
> contributors (have you counted the members of the "Pure 9" vs "9front"
> clans, at all?) by dictum ex cathedra, I think you belong in the
> Middle Ages, the Counter-Reformation at best.
> 
> We ought to have grown past religious belief by now, and started
> accepting that the Earth revolves around the Sun.
> 
> Lucio.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jeremy Jackins]

This is such a weird message coming from the dude that's been spewing
argumentative shit all over everyone's inboxes for the last two days.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:48 PM Don A. Bailey  wrote:

> I don’t think you realize that you have your entire emotional perception
> of this situation flipped.
>
> This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request
> for a 5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am I
> emotional now. What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional responses
> for which I have neither time nor interest. And frankly, neither should
> anyone here.
>
> Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m
> simply against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I
> personally believe that’s a bad move.
>
> Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you people
> have tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole, and waste my
> entire day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it, and because I
> respond with short unemotional statements, you somehow think *I’m* the bad
> guy because I won’t devolve into your world.
>
> Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did today
> instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played with my son.
> I cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked at deer outside.
> We listened to music.
>
> All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses that
> wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being merged.
> Who cares?
>
> Live your life, man.
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Michael Misch 
> wrote:
> >
> > How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s
> neither appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say,
> that your take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional
> maturity may be lacking in general on the list but please do not posture
> from some imagined moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better.
> >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
> >>
> >> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum.
> A major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9
> community, honestly.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>  On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>  I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
> 
>  What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal
> release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not
> want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy /
> 9pio updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain
> there are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its
> place is as its own niche system.
> >>>
> >>> Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think
> this temper tantrum you've been throwing on
> >>> this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work
> with/for you?
> >>> It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code)
> but have no interest in making any effort
> >>> yourself to make that a reality.
> >>>
> >>> I await your "better" plan 9.
> >>>
> >>> - moody
> >>>

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Lucio De Re]

On 1/26/24, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
> I literally don’t care.
>
Then I don't think you belong here.

If you believe you can excommunicate the majority of Plan 9
contributors (have you counted the members of the "Pure 9" vs "9front"
clans, at all?) by dictum ex cathedra, I think you belong in the
Middle Ages, the Counter-Reformation at best.

We ought to have grown past religious belief by now, and started
accepting that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Lucio.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Dan Cross]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 10:04 PM  wrote:
> Since the Plan 9 Foundation doesn't focus on technical aspects, Would the 
> formation of a Plan 9 Core Team be the next logical step? My understanding is 
> the core team would decide technical direction and implementation. What are 
> your thoughts?

If there's a plan 9 core team, that'd be news to me. I don't believe
that such a thing exists.

- Dan C.

> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, at 11:31, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> > I don’t think you realize that you have your entire emotional
> > perception of this situation flipped.
> >
> > This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request
> > for a 5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am
> > I emotional now. What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional
> > responses for which I have neither time nor interest. And frankly,
> > neither should anyone here.
> >
> > Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m
> > simply against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I
> > personally believe that’s a bad move.
> >
> > Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you
> > people have tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole,
> > and waste my entire day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it,
> > and because I respond with short unemotional statements, you somehow
> > think *I’m* the bad guy because I won’t devolve into your world.
> >
> > Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did
> > today instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played
> > with my son. I cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked
> > at deer outside. We listened to music.
> >
> > All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses
> > that wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being
> > merged. Who cares?
> >
> > Live your life, man.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Michael Misch  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s 
> >> neither appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you 
> >> say, that your take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional 
> >> maturity may be lacking in general on the list but please do not posture 
> >> from some imagined moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better.
> >>
> >>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
> >>> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
> >>> community, honestly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> > On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
> 
>  On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> > I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
> >
> > What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal 
> > release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do 
> > not want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” 
> > (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own 
> > thing. I’m certain there are a lot of relevant contributions within 
> > 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system.
> >
> 
>  Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think 
>  this temper tantrum you've been throwing on
>  this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work 
>  with/for you?
>  It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but 
>  have no interest in making any effort
>  yourself to make that a reality.
> 
>  I await your "better" plan 9.
> 
>  - moody
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[vic . thacker]

Since the Plan 9 Foundation doesn't focus on technical aspects, Would the 
formation of a Plan 9 Core Team be the next logical step? My understanding is 
the core team would decide technical direction and implementation. What are 
your thoughts?

--vic

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, at 11:31, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> I don’t think you realize that you have your entire emotional 
> perception of this situation flipped. 
>
> This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request 
> for a 5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am 
> I emotional now. What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional 
> responses for which I have neither time nor interest. And frankly, 
> neither should anyone here. 
>
> Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m 
> simply against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I 
> personally believe that’s a bad move. 
>
> Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you 
> people have tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole, 
> and waste my entire day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it, 
> and because I respond with short unemotional statements, you somehow 
> think *I’m* the bad guy because I won’t devolve into your world. 
>
> Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did 
> today instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played 
> with my son. I cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked 
> at deer outside. We listened to music. 
>
> All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses 
> that wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being 
> merged. Who cares? 
>
> Live your life, man. 
>
>
>
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Michael Misch  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s neither 
>> appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say, that 
>> your take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional maturity may 
>> be lacking in general on the list but please do not posture from some 
>> imagined moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better.
>> 
>>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
>>> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
>>> community, honestly.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
 
 On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
> 
> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal 
> release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do 
> not want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” 
> (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own 
> thing. I’m certain there are a lot of relevant contributions within 
> 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system.
> 
 
 Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this 
 temper tantrum you've been throwing on
 this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work 
 with/for you?
 It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but 
 have no interest in making any effort
 yourself to make that a reality.
 
 I await your "better" plan 9.
 
 - moody
 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I don’t think you realize that you have your entire emotional perception of 
this situation flipped. 

This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request for a 
5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am I emotional 
now. What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional responses for which I 
have neither time nor interest. And frankly, neither should anyone here. 

Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m simply 
against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I personally 
believe that’s a bad move. 

Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you people have 
tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole, and waste my entire 
day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it, and because I respond with 
short unemotional statements, you somehow think *I’m* the bad guy because I 
won’t devolve into your world. 

Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did today 
instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played with my son. I 
cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked at deer outside. We 
listened to music. 

All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses that 
wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being merged. Who 
cares? 

Live your life, man. 



> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Michael Misch  wrote:
> 
> How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s neither 
> appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say, that your 
> take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional maturity may be 
> lacking in general on the list but please do not posture from some imagined 
> moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better.
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
>> 
>> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
>> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
>> community, honestly.
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
 I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
 
 What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release 
 of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 
 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio 
 updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain 
 there are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its 
 place is as its own niche system.
 
>>> 
>>> Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this 
>>> temper tantrum you've been throwing on
>>> this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for 
>>> you?
>>> It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but 
>>> have no interest in making any effort
>>> yourself to make that a reality.
>>> 
>>> I await your "better" plan 9.
>>> 
>>> - moody
>>> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I literally don’t care. 


> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:18 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
> 
> On 1/25/24 17:38, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
>> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
>> community, honestly.
> 
> I didn't see it as a tempter tantrum until you stopped replying in good faith 
> and started name calling.
> I think referring to Noam as "Jung Noam" was perhaps where I mentally drew 
> the line, or the
> fact that you refused to answer any of my questions and instead responded 
> with "Cool Rant"
> to our previous thread of discussion.
> 
> I _want_ to listen to your difference of opinion, I have, at almost every 
> step of the way, asked what your
> complaints are. You repeatedly have chosen to avoid my questions and respond 
> in bad faith. How
> else am I supposed to interpret this?
> 
> My email is still open if you want to send me a list of actual complaints 
> with 9front's code.
> 
> - moody
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Michael Misch]

How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s neither 
appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say, that your 
take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional maturity may be 
lacking in general on the list but please do not posture from some imagined 
moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better.

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey  wrote:
> 
> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
> community, honestly. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
>> 
>> On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>>> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
>>> 
>>> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release 
>>> of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 
>>> 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio 
>>> updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain 
>>> there are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its 
>>> place is as its own niche system.
>>> 
>> 
>> Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this 
>> temper tantrum you've been throwing on
>> this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for 
>> you?
>> It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but have 
>> no interest in making any effort
>> yourself to make that a reality.
>> 
>> I await your "better" plan 9.
>> 
>> - moody
>> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[fig]

I have just one question. Is this concern of 9front code making its way
into the codebase of Plan 9 based on reality? Is there evident cause for
concern?

The 9front developers develop 9front. Plan 9 from Bell Labs is not being
developed, so there’s no “upstream” there is no “mainline” so there’s not
really an ongoing relationship between the two. And 9legacy is bugfixes and
maintenance to the original Plan 9 codebase, no? I don’t think anyone has
any intentions of encroaching on 9legacy, I mean the name is literally
legacy.

I don’t see any reason to believe Bell Labs’ Plan 9 will be “merged”
whatsoever with 9front, or even 9legacy for that matter.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 4:09 PM Don A. Bailey  wrote:

> I look forward to not seeing 9front as a part of a formal release, then.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I look forward to not seeing 9front as a part of a formal release, then. 

Thanks!



> On Jan 25, 2024, at 7:00 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> Great; let me repeat one more time: The Plan 9
> foundation does not currently engage in technical
> work such as putting together releases. There will
> be no release from the P9F including 9front code,
> because there will be no release from the P9F.
> 
> If you feel the need for a release, I encourage you
> to make one. If you feel your release is insufficently
> formal, I suggest renting a tux.
> 
> Quoth Don A. Bailey :
>> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
>> 
>> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release 
>> of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 
>> 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio 
>> updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there 
>> are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is 
>> as its own niche system.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> 
 On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
>>> 
>>> Quoth Don A. Bailey :
 I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would
 like to only receive patches through them.
>>> 
>>> Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources
>>> or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution,
>>> and currently have no plans to do so.
>>> 
>>> Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus
>>> on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the
>>> Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the
>>> logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may
>>> take on would be organizing IWP9.
>>> 
>>> While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think
>>> providing infrastructure to support community projects would
>>> also fit our goals.
>>> 
>>> If you have specific ways we can support people like you
>>> taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward,
>>> please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets
>>> discussed at the next P9F meeting.
>>> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/25/24 17:38, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A 
> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 
> community, honestly. 

I didn't see it as a tempter tantrum until you stopped replying in good faith 
and started name calling.
I think referring to Noam as "Jung Noam" was perhaps where I mentally drew the 
line, or the
fact that you refused to answer any of my questions and instead responded with 
"Cool Rant"
to our previous thread of discussion.

I _want_ to listen to your difference of opinion, I have, at almost every step 
of the way, asked what your
complaints are. You repeatedly have chosen to avoid my questions and respond in 
bad faith. How
else am I supposed to interpret this?

My email is still open if you want to send me a list of actual complaints with 
9front's code.

- moody


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Charles Forsyth]

>
> Hold your hand, my lord!
> I have served you ever since I was a child.
> But better service have I never done you
> Than now to bid you hold.


(King Lear, First Servant)

I think it's a mistake to split into factions. The collective is small
enough that it's almost like the joke about someone
being so fractious that if they were in a room by themselves, they'd argue
with themselves for practice.

I mainly run a 9 version that's several years old, give or take some
Raspberry Pi HAT devices, just because I've had to
earn my keep doing non-Plan 9 work for nearly 8 years and that Other
contracting has consumed enough time I haven't got much spare time.
 Ada, C++, C#. (Good things too: I suddenly got to develop single page
applications in JavaScript with Vue.js and I quite liked both of those and
immediately rewrote from C# to Go.)

Last iwp9 in Waterloo last year, I was finally able to interact after many
years with both 9legacy and 9front people.
During the summer, I attended a 9front hackathon in Brooklyn, where by
circumstance I wasn't at all useful in the hackathon part,
for various reasons irrelevant here, one of them being an unexpected
transit time between Brooklyn and Midtown,
*but* I did have a chance to interact for the first time with a large group
of 9front people.
Whatever it might have been when 9front kicked off, it now has a structure,
a technical competence, a real interest in 9 ideas,
and lots of people discussing things and beavering away (more than I was).

I've imported 9front code both into the compilers and the kernels, for
instance for embedded wifi support.
It's sometimes not easy on the app and kernel side because there has been
big divergence, but then again, the chief benefit of trade is difference,
so perhaps it's not a bad thing.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A major 
problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 community, 
honestly. 



> On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody  wrote:
> 
> On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
>> 
>> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release 
>> of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 
>> 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio 
>> updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there 
>> are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is 
>> as its own niche system.
>> 
> 
> Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this 
> temper tantrum you've been throwing on
> this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for 
> you?
> It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but have 
> no interest in making any effort
> yourself to make that a reality.
> 
> I await your "better" plan 9.
> 
> - moody
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

Great; let me repeat one more time: The Plan 9
foundation does not currently engage in technical
work such as putting together releases. There will
be no release from the P9F including 9front code,
because there will be no release from the P9F.

If you feel the need for a release, I encourage you
to make one. If you feel your release is insufficently
formal, I suggest renting a tux.

Quoth Don A. Bailey :
> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
> 
> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release of 
> Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 9front 
> merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio updated 
> patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there are a 
> lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is as its 
> own niche system.
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> > 
> > Quoth Don A. Bailey :
> >> I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would
> >> like to only receive patches through them.
> > 
> > Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources
> > or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution,
> > and currently have no plans to do so.
> > 
> > Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus
> > on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the
> > Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the
> > logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may
> > take on would be organizing IWP9.
> > 
> > While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think
> > providing infrastructure to support community projects would
> > also fit our goals.
> > 
> > If you have specific ways we can support people like you
> > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward,
> > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets
> > discussed at the next P9F meeting.
> > 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

Last I checked (you) were asking for people to sign up. What’s the actual 
attendee count at this point? 


> On Jan 25, 2024, at 5:33 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum
> for folks like you to figure out how to make this
> all happen; there's going to be plenty of time
> between talks as well as hacking days to figure
> out what code needs to be written, what patches
> exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins
> (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out
> designs, and even get a head start on it.
> 
> Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers
> on the details of how you plan to accomplish this.
> 
> Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware 
>> of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of 
>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is 
>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 
>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance 
>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 
>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for 
>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared 
>> passions and expertise.
>> 
>> The Need for Modernization
>> 
>> Technological Evolution:
>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last 
>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's 
>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest 
>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This 
>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in 
>> our modern tech toolkit.
>> 
>> Security Enhancements:
>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a 
>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include 
>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique 
>> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
>> 
>> Hardware Compatibility:
>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. 
>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its 
>> usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, 
>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>> 
>> Fostering Innovation
>> 
>> Research and Education:
>> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has 
>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release 
>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for 
>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can 
>> achieve with Plan 9.
>> 
>> Community Engagement:
>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an 
>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a 
>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 
>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new 
>> collaborations and innovations.
>> 
>> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, 
>> especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed 
>> systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and 
>> forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>> 
>> Practical Considerations
>> 
>> Resource Allocation:
>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing 
>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective 
>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new 
>> partnerships or funding avenues.
>> 
>> Backward Compatibility:
>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and 
>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while 
>> charting a course for its future.
>> 
>> Documentation and Support:
>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new 
>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will 
>> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we 
>> can all be proud of.
>> 
>> Conclusion
>> 
>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a 
>> reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the 
>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring 
>> Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. 
>> It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, 
>> education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the 
>> community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while 
>> shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.
> 
> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release of 
> Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 9front 
> merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio updated 
> patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there are a 
> lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is as its 
> own niche system.
> 

Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this 
temper tantrum you've been throwing on
this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for you?
It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but have no 
interest in making any effort
yourself to make that a reality.

I await your "better" plan 9.

- moody


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation.

What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release of 
Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 9front 
merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio updated 
patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there are a lot 
of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is as its own 
niche system.

Thanks! 


> On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> Quoth Don A. Bailey :
>> I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would
>> like to only receive patches through them.
> 
> Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources
> or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution,
> and currently have no plans to do so.
> 
> Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus
> on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the
> Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the
> logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may
> take on would be organizing IWP9.
> 
> While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think
> providing infrastructure to support community projects would
> also fit our goals.
> 
> If you have specific ways we can support people like you
> taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward,
> please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets
> discussed at the next P9F meeting.
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

That’s why I use quotes around mainline. 

And what you stated is also a big reason I’m not interested in 9front. No idea 
what your direction is or what your interests are. I like a lot of the things 
done by the core team, and the direction set by them. I’m not interested in 
9front. 

Seeing a stable legacy release is imperative, in my opinion. That’s all. I’d 
rather it wasn’t merged. 

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:23 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> Quoth Don Bailey :
>> Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front,
>> yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that
>> have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually
>> designed it?
>> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the point of your question; I work on
> 9front. There's nothing that qualifies as a mainline Plan 9
> since the lights turned off at Bell Labs almost a decade ago;
> there are just forks like 9legacy and 9front.
> 
> The people that actually designed it stopped setting direction
> years before Bell Labs shut down.
> 
> As a member of the Plan 9 Foundation, I would like to see other
> people pick up other Plan 9 distributions, and take them in
> other directions.
> 
> As far as I can tell, that involves code being written and
> shared.
> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20 AM  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This email suffers from a lack of semicolons;
>>> 
>>> Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and
>>> direction comes from people writing code; once
>>> the work begins, people are sometimes willing to
>>> help -- but only once work begins.
>>> 
>>> Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
 Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
>>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
>>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
>>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
>>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
>>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
>>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
>>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
>>> passions and expertise.
 
 The Need for Modernization
 
 Technological Evolution:
 We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's
>>> last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation,
>>> it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
>>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
>>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
>>> our modern tech toolkit.
 
 Security Enhancements:
 In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
>>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
>>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
>>> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
 
 Hardware Compatibility:
 The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for
>>> us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only
>>> preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of
>>> computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
 
 Fostering Innovation
 
 Research and Education:
 Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
>>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
>>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
>>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
>>> achieve with Plan 9.
 
 Community Engagement:
 A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
>>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
>>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
>>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
>>> collaborations and innovations.
 
 Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
 Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
>>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
>>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
>>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
 
 Practical Considerations
 
 Resource Allocation:
 We understand the importance of efficient resource management in
>>> bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our
>>> collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly
>>> exploring new partnerships or funding avenues.
 
 Backward Compatibility:
 Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work
>>> and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

Yeah but we don’t necessarily need patches from 9front. The ones of good quality are really already being pulled in. Cinap does a lot of solid work. My only issue is seeing the two maintain a strong delineation, which I obviously prefer.On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:04 PM, Eli Cohen  wrote:we've had discussions like this before. I do agree that having a more "original" Plan 9 option like 9legacy is a good idea. in terms of what that actually means doing, a lot of the obvious effort would be to go into turning stuff from 9front into patches for 9legacy. I started to do this to make a patch for dp9ik for 9legacy and I quickly realized how much effort that actually would takeOn Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 11:35 AM Don Bailey  wrote:Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree. I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am not against 9front doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two did not merge. It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo. DOn Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing with you either.  We could all be a little kinder to one another, especially since we all have love for Plan 9. — thedæmon 﫠On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:Cool gaslighting. On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. 
> 
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a user and a developer. 
> 
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reasons?
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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I’ve literally never even seen your name before. 



> On Jan 25, 2024, at 3:45 PM, Michael Misch  wrote:
> 
> This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing an 
> opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated 
> whatever respect I may have started to develop for you.
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
>> 
>> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as 
>> a user and a developer.
>> 
>> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any 
>> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>> 
>> D
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
>>> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
>>> patches through them.
>> 
>> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
>> 
>> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
>> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
>> "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
>> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
>> 
>> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
>> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
>> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
>> email) received from them.
>> 
>> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
>> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
>> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
>> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
>> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
>> 
>> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
>> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
>> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
>> members are able to contribute quite effectively.
>> 
>> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
>> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
>> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
>> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
>> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
>> 
>> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
>> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
>> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
>> another patch to sources some day soon.
>> 
>> hiro
>> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum
for folks like you to figure out how to make this
all happen; there's going to be plenty of time
between talks as well as hacking days to figure
out what code needs to be written, what patches
exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins
(and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out
designs, and even get a head start on it.

Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers
on the details of how you plan to accomplish this.

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware 
> of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of 
> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is 
> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 
> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance 
> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 
> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for 
> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared 
> passions and expertise.
> 
> The Need for Modernization
> 
> Technological Evolution: 
> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last 
> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's 
> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements 
> in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial 
> to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech 
> toolkit.
> 
> Security Enhancements: 
> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality 
> we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include 
> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work 
> we do from emerging cyber risks.
> 
> Hardware Compatibility: 
> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. 
> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its 
> usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, 
> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
> 
> Fostering Innovation
> 
> Research and Education: 
> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always 
> been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would 
> re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued 
> exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with 
> Plan 9.
> 
> Community Engagement:
> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an 
> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer 
> ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 
> could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and 
> innovations.
> 
> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: 
> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, 
> especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed 
> systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and 
> forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
> 
> Practical Considerations
> 
> Resource Allocation: 
> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing 
> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective 
> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new 
> partnerships or funding avenues.
> 
> Backward Compatibility:
> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and 
> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while 
> charting a course for its future.
> 
> Documentation and Support: 
> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new 
> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid 
> in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can 
> all be proud of.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a 
> reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the 
> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring 
> Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. 
> It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, 
> education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the 
> community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping 
> its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter 
> in the Plan 9 story.
> 
> 
> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> --vic
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum
for folks like you to figure out how to make this
all happen; there's going to be plenty of time
between talks as well as hacking days to figure
out what code needs to be written, what patches
exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins
(and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out
designs, and even get a head start on it.

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware 
> of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of 
> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is 
> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 
> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance 
> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 
> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for 
> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared 
> passions and expertise.
> 
> The Need for Modernization
> 
> Technological Evolution: 
> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last 
> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's 
> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements 
> in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial 
> to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech 
> toolkit.
> 
> Security Enhancements: 
> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality 
> we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include 
> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work 
> we do from emerging cyber risks.
> 
> Hardware Compatibility: 
> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. 
> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its 
> usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, 
> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
> 
> Fostering Innovation
> 
> Research and Education: 
> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always 
> been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would 
> re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued 
> exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with 
> Plan 9.
> 
> Community Engagement:
> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an 
> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer 
> ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 
> could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and 
> innovations.
> 
> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: 
> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, 
> especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed 
> systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and 
> forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
> 
> Practical Considerations
> 
> Resource Allocation: 
> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing 
> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective 
> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new 
> partnerships or funding avenues.
> 
> Backward Compatibility:
> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and 
> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while 
> charting a course for its future.
> 
> Documentation and Support: 
> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new 
> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid 
> in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can 
> all be proud of.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a 
> reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the 
> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring 
> Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. 
> It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, 
> education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the 
> community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping 
> its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter 
> in the Plan 9 story.
> 
> 
> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> --vic
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that 
> >> it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it 
> >> is more 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

Quoth Don A. Bailey :
> I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would
> like to only receive patches through them. 

Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources
or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution,
and currently have no plans to do so.

Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus
on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the
Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the
logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may
take on would be organizing IWP9.

While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think
providing infrastructure to support community projects would
also fit our goals.

If you have specific ways we can support people like you
taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward,
please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets
discussed at the next P9F meeting.



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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Cool assessment, Jung Noam.


On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 3:20 PM  wrote:

> Quoth Don Bailey :
> > Cool rant.
> 
> It's incredible to me that you can put in so much effort to make sure that
> the strength of your convictions is clear, while also putting in so little
> effort that nobody wants to be around you long enough to find out what they
> actually are.
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

I'm not sure what a mainline Plan 9 means. Can you define
that term, and tell me who maintains it?

Quoth Don Bailey :
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
> 
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as
> a user and a developer.
> 
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
> 
> D
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
> > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d
> > prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only
> > receive patches through them.
> > 
> > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
> > 
> > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> > "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
> > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> > 
> > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> > email) received from them.
> > 
> > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
> > 
> > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
> > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> > members are able to contribute quite effectively.
> > 
> > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
> > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
> > blackjack and hookers. In my head.
> > 
> > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
> > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> > another patch to sources some day soon.
> > 
> > hiro

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

Quoth Don Bailey :
> Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front,
> yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that
> have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually
> designed it?
> 

I'm not sure I understand the point of your question; I work on
9front. There's nothing that qualifies as a mainline Plan 9
since the lights turned off at Bell Labs almost a decade ago;
there are just forks like 9legacy and 9front.

The people that actually designed it stopped setting direction
years before Bell Labs shut down.

As a member of the Plan 9 Foundation, I would like to see other
people pick up other Plan 9 distributions, and take them in
other directions.

As far as I can tell, that involves code being written and
shared.

> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20 AM  wrote:
> 
> > This email suffers from a lack of semicolons;
> >
> > Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and
> > direction comes from people writing code; once
> > the work begins, people are sometimes willing to
> > help -- but only once work begins.
> >
> > Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> > > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
> > aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
> > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
> > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
> > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
> > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
> > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
> > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
> > passions and expertise.
> > >
> > > The Need for Modernization
> > >
> > > Technological Evolution:
> > > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's
> > last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation,
> > it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
> > advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
> > evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
> > our modern tech toolkit.
> > >
> > > Security Enhancements:
> > > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
> > reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
> > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
> > work we do from emerging cyber risks.
> > >
> > > Hardware Compatibility:
> > > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for
> > us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only
> > preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of
> > computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
> > >
> > > Fostering Innovation
> > >
> > > Research and Education:
> > > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
> > always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
> > would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
> > continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
> > achieve with Plan 9.
> > >
> > > Community Engagement:
> > > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
> > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
> > richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
> > Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
> > collaborations and innovations.
> > >
> > > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
> > > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
> > capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
> > and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
> > and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
> > >
> > > Practical Considerations
> > >
> > > Resource Allocation:
> > > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in
> > bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our
> > collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly
> > exploring new partnerships or funding avenues.
> > >
> > > Backward Compatibility:
> > > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work
> > and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
> > charting a course for its future.
> > >
> > > Documentation and Support:
> > > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this
> > new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that
> > will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a
> > tool we can all be proud of.
> > >
> > > Conclusion
> > >
> > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update;
> > it’s a reaffirmation 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Eli Cohen]

we've had discussions like this before. I do agree that having a more
"original" Plan 9 option like 9legacy is a good idea. in terms of what that
actually means doing, a lot of the obvious effort would be to go into
turning stuff from 9front into patches for 9legacy. I started to do this to
make a patch for dp9ik for 9legacy and I quickly realized how much effort
that actually would take

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 11:35 AM Don Bailey  wrote:

> Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree.
>
> I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am
> not against 9front doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two
> did not merge. It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo.
>
> D
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing
>> with you either.  We could all be a little kinder to one another,
>> especially since we all have love for Plan 9.
>>
>>
>> — thedæmon 﫠
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey > > wrote:
>>
>> Cool gaslighting.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
>>> >
>>> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether.
>>> Both as a user and a developer.
>>> >
>>> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
>>> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>>> 
>>> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong
>>> reasons?
>>> 
>> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[noam]

Quoth Don Bailey :
> Cool rant.

It's incredible to me that you can put in so much effort to make sure that
the strength of your convictions is clear, while also putting in so little
effort that nobody wants to be around you long enough to find out what they
actually are.


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[noam]

Quoth Don Bailey :
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.

Are you okay?


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Cool rant.

D


On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:50 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> It doesn't matter if one is "mainline" or not, you've completely missed
> the point of my mail.
> One is usable and the other is not. One has a community, the other does
> not. One has people
> who share source, there other does not. Put your time where your mouth is
> and do something
> about the sorry state of "mainline". Where is the work? Where is the code?
> Again all I see
> are snarky comments and bullshit.
> 
> Or perhaps you're more interested in hoarding code so you can sit around
> stroking your
> ego about ideological purity. Doesn't make any difference to me. Honestly
> hope you do
> walk away from Plan 9 because its clear that your attitude sucks.
> 

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Re[2]: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Alexandr Babic]

hello from czechia.

make plan9 not war :-)

there are many un*xes, so we can have many distros of plan9 :-)
i have 9front, original plan9 in my virtual machines so i think there's really 
no problem.
and anyone can become creator of new distro and use any code he wants :-)

i was thinking about my own czech distro named "TATRAPLAN9", long time ago 
there was czech automobile called TATRAPLAN :-)

so keep it peaceful here :-)

a...@plan9.cz
 
- Původní zpráva -
Odesilatel: Michael Misch (michaelmisch1...@gmail.com)
Datum: 01/25/24 19:16
Příjemce: 9fans (9fans@9fans.net)
Předmět: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans 
Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing an 
opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated 
whatever respect I may have started to develop for you.

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
>
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a 
> user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest 
> in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>
> D
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> > the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> > patches through them.
>
> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
>
> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
>
> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> email) received from them.
>
> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
>
> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> members are able to contribute quite effectively.
>
> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
>
> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> another patch to sources some day soon.
>
> hiro
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

And if 9front stays 9front, that's fine by me. Do it up :-)



On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:13 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> Do you have specific issues with our code? All I've seen is vague finger
> pointing.
> We don't need some authority to point at 9front and say its "mainline",
> people
> see where the effort is going, endorsement or not.
>
> On 1/25/24 10:44, Don Bailey wrote:
> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
> >
> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both
> as a user and a developer.
> >
> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
> >
> > D
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net
> > wrote:
> > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo.
> I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to
> only receive patches through them.
> >
> > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a
> User?
> >
> > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> > "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting
> of
> > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> >
> > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> > email) received from them.
> >
> > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
> >
> > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to
> negotiate
> > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> > members are able to contribute quite effectively.
> >
> > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always
> stay
> > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs,
> with
> > blackjack and hookers. In my head.
> >
> > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me
> and
> > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> > another patch to sources some day soon.
> >
> > hiro
> >
> > --
> > 9fans: 9fans
> > Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48
> <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48
> >
> > Delivery options:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>
> >
> > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink <
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M49c3ee9d437d123d75160dc8

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree.

I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am not
against 9front doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two did
not merge. It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo.

D

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

>
> Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing
> with you either.  We could all be a little kinder to one another,
> especially since we all have love for Plan 9.
>
>
> — thedæmon 﫠
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey  > wrote:
>
> Cool gaslighting.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:
>
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
>> >
>> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether.
>> Both as a user and a developer.
>> >
>> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
>> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>> 
>> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong
>> reasons?
>> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Michael Misch]

This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing an 
opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated 
whatever respect I may have started to develop for you. 

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. 
> 
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a 
> user and a developer. 
> 
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest 
> in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. 
> 
> D
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> > the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> > patches through them.
> 
> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
> 
> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> email) received from them.
> 
> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
> 
> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> members are able to contribute quite effectively.
> 
> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
> 
> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> another patch to sources some day soon.
> 
> hiro
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[thedaemon via 9fans]

Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing with 
you either. We could all be a little kinder to one another, especially since we 
all have love for Plan 9.

— thedæmon 﫠

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey <[don.bai...@gmail.com](mailto:On 
Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey < wrote:

> Cool gaslighting.
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:
>
>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
>>>
>>> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as 
>>> a user and a developer.
>>>
>>> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any 
>>> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>> 
>> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong 
>> reasons?
>
> [9fans](https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest) / 9fans / see 
> [discussions](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans) + 
> [participants](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members) + [delivery 
> options](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription) 
> [Permalink](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M44736eac26284fd9eaa827f7)
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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

It doesn't matter if one is "mainline" or not, you've completely missed the 
point of my mail.
One is usable and the other is not. One has a community, the other does not. 
One has people
who share source, there other does not. Put your time where your mouth is and 
do something
about the sorry state of "mainline". Where is the work? Where is the code? 
Again all I see
are snarky comments and bullshit.

Or perhaps you're more interested in hoarding code so you can sit around 
stroking your
ego about ideological purity. Doesn't make any difference to me. Honestly hope 
you do
walk away from Plan 9 because its clear that your attitude sucks.


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Cool gaslighting.



On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
> >
> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both
> as a user and a developer.
> >
> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
> 
> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong
> reasons?
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Bakul Shah]

On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. 
> 
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a 
> user and a developer. 
> 
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest 
> in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reasons?


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Sounds like you're happy keeping 9front separate from "mainline", then.
Works for me :-)



On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:20 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 1/25/24 09:35, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for
> 9front, yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does
> that have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually
> designed it?
> 
> There is no "path for patches" in 9legacy, if I wanted to write code for
> "mainline Plan 9" who do
> I send to code to? Who is going to help review and bug test my code. You
> mentioned earlier that
> you had ported Plan 9 to other systems, is that code available anywhere,
> was that upstreamed into
> "mainline Plan 9". 9front happened, as Ori stated, because there was no
> path forward with "mainline
> Plan 9".
> 
> When I looked in to Plan 9 some 5ish years ago and looking at both camps
> of folks it was clear to me
> that one group was going to look at my patches, work on my hardware, and
> had an active community.
> 
> If y'all wanted to set up a pipeline for patches, encourage folks to send
> in their patches and make
> some repo for folks to work on then yeah sure. But right now there really
> isn't a comparison between
> what "mainline plan 9" is and 9front, one is a museum and the other is a
> living distribution. There is
> of course Miller's branch, which I respect as being active and actually
> usable, but I have a feeling you
> don't consider that "mainline plan 9" either.
> 
> Look man, be the change you want to see in the world, setup the repo,
> review patches, merge new code, et
> all. Getting mad at us for writing the code and keeping stuff working is a
> bit silly, especially if your
> only reason is that we aren't the "blessed few". Those folks as far as I
> can tell are not interested in
> this anymore, we're on our own here. There are clearly some folks
> interested here in continuing "mainline
> plan 9" why not work together and get something that is easier for folks
> to use? 9front will continue to
> be over here with a ten year plus head start.
> 
> - moody
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

You're welcome!



On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:09 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote:
> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
> 
> This tracks.  Thanks for your insight.
> 
> khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote:
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.

This tracks.  Thanks for your insight.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

Do you have specific issues with our code? All I've seen is vague finger 
pointing.
We don't need some authority to point at 9front and say its "mainline", people
see where the effort is going, endorsement or not.

On 1/25/24 10:44, Don Bailey wrote:
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. 
> 
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a 
> user and a developer. 
> 
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest 
> in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. 
> 
> D
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net 
> > wrote:
> 
> > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d 
> prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only 
> receive patches through them.
> 
> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
> 
> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> email) received from them.
> 
> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
> 
> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> members are able to contribute quite effectively.
> 
> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
> 
> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> another patch to sources some day soon.
> 
> hiro
> 
> --
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: 
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48
>  
> 
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription 
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> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions 
>  + participants 
>  + delivery options 
>  Permalink 
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.

If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as
a user and a developer.

I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any
interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

D

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d
> prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only
> receive patches through them.
> 
> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
> 
> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
> "manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
> email) received from them.
> 
> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.
> 
> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
> members are able to contribute quite effectively.
> 
> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
> 
> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
> another patch to sources some day soon.
> 
> hiro

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/25/24 09:35, Don Bailey wrote:
> Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front, 
> yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that have 
> to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually designed it? 

There is no "path for patches" in 9legacy, if I wanted to write code for 
"mainline Plan 9" who do
I send to code to? Who is going to help review and bug test my code. You 
mentioned earlier that
you had ported Plan 9 to other systems, is that code available anywhere, was 
that upstreamed into
"mainline Plan 9". 9front happened, as Ori stated, because there was no path 
forward with "mainline
Plan 9".

When I looked in to Plan 9 some 5ish years ago and looking at both camps of 
folks it was clear to me
that one group was going to look at my patches, work on my hardware, and had an 
active community.

If y'all wanted to set up a pipeline for patches, encourage folks to send in 
their patches and make
some repo for folks to work on then yeah sure. But right now there really isn't 
a comparison between
what "mainline plan 9" is and 9front, one is a museum and the other is a living 
distribution. There is
of course Miller's branch, which I respect as being active and actually usable, 
but I have a feeling you
don't consider that "mainline plan 9" either.

Look man, be the change you want to see in the world, setup the repo, review 
patches, merge new code, et
all. Getting mad at us for writing the code and keeping stuff working is a bit 
silly, especially if your
only reason is that we aren't the "blessed few". Those folks as far as I can 
tell are not interested in
this anymore, we're on our own here. There are clearly some folks interested 
here in continuing "mainline
plan 9" why not work together and get something that is easier for folks to 
use? 9front will continue to
be over here with a ten year plus head start.

- moody


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front,
yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that
have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually
designed it?



On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20 AM  wrote:

> This email suffers from a lack of semicolons;
>
> Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and
> direction comes from people writing code; once
> the work begins, people are sometimes willing to
> help -- but only once work begins.
>
> Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
> passions and expertise.
> >
> > The Need for Modernization
> >
> > Technological Evolution:
> > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's
> last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation,
> it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
> our modern tech toolkit.
> >
> > Security Enhancements:
> > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
> >
> > Hardware Compatibility:
> > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for
> us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only
> preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of
> computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
> >
> > Fostering Innovation
> >
> > Research and Education:
> > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
> achieve with Plan 9.
> >
> > Community Engagement:
> > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
> collaborations and innovations.
> >
> > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
> > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
> >
> > Practical Considerations
> >
> > Resource Allocation:
> > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in
> bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our
> collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly
> exploring new partnerships or funding avenues.
> >
> > Backward Compatibility:
> > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work
> and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
> charting a course for its future.
> >
> > Documentation and Support:
> > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this
> new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that
> will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a
> tool we can all be proud of.
> >
> > Conclusion
> >
> > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update;
> it’s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at
> the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards
> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the
> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of
> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the
> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of
> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together,
> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> > --vic
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> > >> I have looked at 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[hiro via 9fans]

> [...] then it is not surprising that people
> misunderstand your intentions.

and otherwise, too. you'll just have to adapt your predictions (or
expectations?) a little if you're so frequently surprised.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[hiro via 9fans]

> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> patches through them.

Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?

Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
"manage" something. for example  development and continuous hosting of
the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.

I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
email) received from them.

I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off"
is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.

It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
members are able to contribute quite effectively.

To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool
kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
blackjack and hookers. In my head.

Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
another patch to sources some day soon.

hiro

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[ori]

This email suffers from a lack of semicolons;

Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and
direction comes from people writing code; once
the work begins, people are sometimes willing to
help -- but only once work begins.

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware 
> of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of 
> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is 
> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 
> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance 
> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 
> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for 
> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared 
> passions and expertise.
> 
> The Need for Modernization
> 
> Technological Evolution: 
> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last 
> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's 
> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements 
> in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial 
> to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech 
> toolkit.
> 
> Security Enhancements: 
> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality 
> we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include 
> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work 
> we do from emerging cyber risks.
> 
> Hardware Compatibility: 
> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. 
> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its 
> usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, 
> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
> 
> Fostering Innovation
> 
> Research and Education: 
> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always 
> been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would 
> re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued 
> exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with 
> Plan 9.
> 
> Community Engagement:
> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an 
> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer 
> ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 
> could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and 
> innovations.
> 
> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: 
> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, 
> especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed 
> systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and 
> forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
> 
> Practical Considerations
> 
> Resource Allocation: 
> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing 
> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective 
> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new 
> partnerships or funding avenues.
> 
> Backward Compatibility:
> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and 
> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while 
> charting a course for its future.
> 
> Documentation and Support: 
> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new 
> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid 
> in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can 
> all be proud of.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a 
> reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the 
> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring 
> Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. 
> It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, 
> education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the 
> community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping 
> its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter 
> in the Plan 9 story.
> 
> 
> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> --vic
> 
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that 
> >> it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it 
> >> is more work than a recompile.
> >> 
> >> Michael 
> > 
> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and
> > linker working on
> > 9legacy is 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Sergey Zhilkin]

Hello All!
5 cent's from me
There was Akaros, HarveyOS (ideas not so bad), NIX (kernel).
Modern academia, imho, tries to solve issues in lunix that was
already solved in Plan9.
Modern programming - python (imho another Basic), Rust(? even in kernel?),
NodeJS (who loves it???), Go-lang (we already have it)
Modern hardware - RISC-V, ARM64 ?

Maybe innovation will be not code, but communication between ppl around
plan9, 9legacy, 9front?

чт, 25 янв. 2024 г. в 10:59, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:

> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> > However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community
> > when there's no unified vision to align with.
> 
> We all like Plan 9.  Identify the people who like the same things about
> Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them.  It might be
> easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously.
> 
> khm


-- 
С наилучшими пожеланиями
Жилкин Сергей
With best regards
Zhilkin Sergey

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community
> when there's no unified vision to align with.

We all like Plan 9.  Identify the people who like the same things about
Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them.  It might be
easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> I use it. It’s also my advice. It wasn’t “advice” from Rob, it was a design 
> choice. There’s more value in that than “advice”. 

It's a design choice nobody can implement, because it presumes that the
starting point is correct enough that you never have to break
compatibility.  It's a wonderful design choice to make, for instance,
regarding a system you never intend to touch again.

> Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks.

You talk about receiving patches from the foundation but *I'm* the one
with theoretical discussions or trolling?

Wild.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Lucio De Re]

On 1/25/24, Noam Preil  wrote:
> I wasn't talking to you :P
>
> That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely
> apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't
> think I did
>
If you find it difficult to quote at least the sender of the message
you are responding to, then it is not surprising that people
misunderstand your intentions.

Lucio.

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[vic . thacker]

Thank you for your valuable insight. I appreciate being corrected when wrong. 
The purpose of my query regarding the development of a vision for Plan 9 is to 
deeply understand the collective aspirations and goals of our community. I 
firmly believe that aligning our collective efforts with a mutually recognized 
and understood vision is significantly more effective than proceeding without 
clear objectives. However, I must admit to feeling somewhat adrift, as I have 
yet to encounter specific discussions or documents that clearly outline such a 
vision. My intention is not to challenge or criticize but to seek clarity and 
insight. I am in the process of exploring and seeking to comprehend the 
community's vision to guide my contributions. However, it is challenging for me 
to engage effectively in a community when there's no unified vision to align 
with. Efforts expended in vain are seldom appreciated by anyone.

Thank you. 
-vic

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 13:26, Noam Preil wrote:
> I wasn't talking to you :P
> 
> That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely
> apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't
> think I did

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Noam Preil]

I wasn't talking to you :P

That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely
apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't
think I did

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

I've been posting on 9fans for 20 years, hacking the kernel as long, and
porting it to various chips and SoCs for as long. I don't have to prove
anything to you.



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:50 PM Noam Preil  wrote:

> It might help to believe that if you wrote actual ideas about what
> should be done.
> 
> - Noam Preil
> 

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

I use it. It’s also my advice. It wasn’t “advice” from Rob, it was a design 
choice. There’s more value in that than “advice”. 

Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks.

D

> On Jan 24, 2024, at 10:44 PM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> Tbf I took it as genuine.
>> 
>> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases 
>> should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the 
>> network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended.
> 
> might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead
> 
>> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
>> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
>> patches through them.
> 
> what is weird about forking unmaintained software?
> 
> khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Noam Preil]

That seems like a lot of work, though; surely, we can all just share a
rootfs over 9p!!


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Alex Musolino]

> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9
> releases should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates
> through the network.  I think if 9 lives on it should be that was,
> as intended.

I agree.  Maybe we could use some sort of distributed source control
system.

--
Cheers,
Alex Musolino


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Noam Preil]

It might help to believe that if you wrote actual ideas about what
should be done.

- Noam Preil


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> Tbf I took it as genuine. 
> 
> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases 
> should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the 
> network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. 

might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead

> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> patches through them. 

what is weird about forking unmaintained software?

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/24/24 19:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> Tbf I took it as genuine. 
> 
> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases 
> should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the 
> network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. 

I have a hard time following what "fluid updates through the network" is 
supposed to mean.
If you mean that patches should be made by the community then that is exactly 
what 9front is.

> 
> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> patches through them. 

Why do you dislike 9front? 9front works with the foundation, we have a regular 
committer who is directly
in the foundation.

>> On Jan 24, 2024, at 8:50 PM, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
>>
>> To clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the idea of 
>> envisioning a new release.
>>
>> --vic

9front is exactly what you're envisioning, we keep the system up to date to 
keep it working in the
modern world. Modern hardware support, modern compatibility with software as 
required, all this stuff.

I don't know where you folks think the code is going to come from, there really 
isn't that much activity
outside of 9front. If you want to personally take up the lead and fix 
everything bug-for-bug starting
again from 4e or 9legacy be my guest. But all I see here is asking for others 
to do the work.

- moody


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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don A. Bailey]

Tbf I took it as genuine. 

One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases should 
not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the network. I 
think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. 

I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer the 
sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive patches 
through them. 

D


> On Jan 24, 2024, at 8:50 PM, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> 
> To clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the idea of 
> envisioning a new release.
> 
> --vic
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote:
>> Breh. No.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45 PM  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
>>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
>>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
>>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
>>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
>>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
>>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
>>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
>>> passions and expertise.
>>> 
>>> The Need for Modernization
>>> 
>>> Technological Evolution:
>>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last
>>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's
>>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
>>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
>>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
>>> our modern tech toolkit.
>>> 
>>> Security Enhancements:
>>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
>>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
>>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
>>> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
>>> 
>>> Hardware Compatibility:
>>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.
>>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving
>>> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing,
>>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>>> 
>>> Fostering Innovation
>>> 
>>> Research and Education:
>>> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
>>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
>>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
>>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
>>> achieve with Plan 9.
>>> 
>>> Community Engagement:
>>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
>>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
>>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
>>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
>>> collaborations and innovations.
>>> 
>>> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
>>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
>>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
>>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
>>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>>> 
>>> Practical Considerations
>>> 
>>> Resource Allocation:
>>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing
>>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective
>>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new
>>> partnerships or funding avenues.
>>> 
>>> Backward Compatibility:
>>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and
>>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
>>> charting a course for its future.
>>> 
>>> Documentation and Support:
>>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new
>>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will
>>> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we
>>> can all be proud of.
>>> 
>>> Conclusion
>>> 
>>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s
>>> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the
>>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards
>>> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the
>>> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of
>>> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the
>>> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of
>>> Plan 9 while shaping 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[vic . thacker]

To clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the idea of 
envisioning a new release.

--vic


On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote:
> Breh. No.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45 PM  wrote:
>
>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
>> passions and expertise.
>>
>> The Need for Modernization
>>
>> Technological Evolution:
>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last
>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's
>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
>> our modern tech toolkit.
>>
>> Security Enhancements:
>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
>> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
>>
>> Hardware Compatibility:
>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.
>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving
>> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing,
>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>>
>> Fostering Innovation
>>
>> Research and Education:
>> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
>> achieve with Plan 9.
>>
>> Community Engagement:
>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
>> collaborations and innovations.
>>
>> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>>
>> Practical Considerations
>>
>> Resource Allocation:
>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing
>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective
>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new
>> partnerships or funding avenues.
>>
>> Backward Compatibility:
>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and
>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
>> charting a course for its future.
>>
>> Documentation and Support:
>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new
>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will
>> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we
>> can all be proud of.
>>
>> Conclusion
>>
>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s
>> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the
>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards
>> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the
>> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of
>> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the
>> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of
>> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together,
>> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.
>>
>>
>> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
>> --vic
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
>> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
>> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think
>> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But
>> it is more work than a recompile.
>> >>
>> >> Michael
>> >
>> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and
>> > linker working on
>> > 9legacy is already not what I 

Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Don Bailey]

Breh. No.



On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45 PM  wrote:

> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly
> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of
> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is
> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9
> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance
> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9
> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for
> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared
> passions and expertise.
>
> The Need for Modernization
>
> Technological Evolution:
> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last
> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's
> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest
> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This
> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in
> our modern tech toolkit.
>
> Security Enhancements:
> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a
> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include
> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique
> work we do from emerging cyber risks.
>
> Hardware Compatibility:
> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.
> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving
> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing,
> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>
> Fostering Innovation
>
> Research and Education:
> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has
> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release
> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for
> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can
> achieve with Plan 9.
>
> Community Engagement:
> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an
> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a
> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9
> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new
> collaborations and innovations.
>
> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's
> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT,
> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability
> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>
> Practical Considerations
>
> Resource Allocation:
> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing
> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective
> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new
> partnerships or funding avenues.
>
> Backward Compatibility:
> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and
> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while
> charting a course for its future.
>
> Documentation and Support:
> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new
> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will
> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we
> can all be proud of.
>
> Conclusion
>
> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s
> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the
> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards
> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the
> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of
> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the
> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of
> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together,
> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.
>
>
> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> --vic
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think
> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But
> it is more work than a recompile.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >
> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and
> > linker working on
> > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in
> > /sys/src/cmd/cc.
> > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug
> > the compiler, the linker, and
> > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when
> > I see it.
> >

Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[vic . thacker]

Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware of 
the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distributed 
computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable. In the 
spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5 beckons, 
offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our beloved system. 
This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release 5, focusing on 
the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, and the practical 
considerations that align with our shared passions and expertise.

The Need for Modernization

Technological Evolution: 
We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last 
iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's 
essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements 
in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial 
to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech toolkit.

Security Enhancements: 
In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality 
we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cutting-edge 
security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work we do from 
emerging cyber risks.

Hardware Compatibility: 
The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. 
Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its 
usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, something 
we, as 9fans, have always embraced.

Fostering Innovation

Research and Education: 
Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always 
been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would 
re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued 
exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with 
Plan 9.

Community Engagement:
A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an 
opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer 
ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 could 
be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and 
innovations.

Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: 
Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, 
especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed 
systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and 
forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.

Practical Considerations

Resource Allocation: 
We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing Plan 
9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowledge, 
drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partnerships or 
funding avenues.

Backward Compatibility:
Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and 
ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while charting 
a course for its future.

Documentation and Support: 
Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new 
release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid 
in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can all 
be proud of.

Conclusion

The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a 
reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the vanguard 
of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring Plan 9's 
continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. It's an 
opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, education, and 
beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the community to make 
this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's 
embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.


Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
--vic

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that it 
>> would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it is 
>> more work than a recompile.
>> 
>> Michael 
> 
> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and
> linker working on
> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in
> /sys/src/cmd/cc.
> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug
> the compiler, the linker, and
> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when
> I see it.
> 

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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that it 
> would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it is 
> more work than a recompile.
> 
> Michael 

It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and linker 
working on
9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in 
/sys/src/cmd/cc.
So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug the 
compiler, the linker, and
the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when I see it.


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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[Michael Grunditz]

I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that it 
would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it is more 
work than a recompile.

Michael 

> 24 jan. 2024 kl. 20:28 skrev Jacob Moody :
> 
> On 1/24/24 09:47, alex...@posteo.de wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: 
>> https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html 
>> ) is supported 
>> by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad 
>> models?
>> 
>> 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily 
>> transferable to 9legacy?
> 
> It is likely transferable but it will certainly not be easy, the code has 
> drifted quite a bit at this point.
> I would suggest giving 9front a try first, but it sounds like you have 
> already ruled that out.
> 
> Thanks,
> moody
> 

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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[Jacob Moody]

On 1/24/24 09:47, alex...@posteo.de wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: 
> https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html 
> ) is supported 
> by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad 
> models?
> 
> 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily 
> transferable to 9legacy?

It is likely transferable but it will certainly not be easy, the code has 
drifted quite a bit at this point.
I would suggest giving 9front a try first, but it sounds like you have already 
ruled that out.


Thanks,
moody


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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[Don Bailey]

I used to run plan9 exclusively (main OS) between around 2004-2010 and I
had a lot of luck with Compaq and Thinkpad (Lenovo). In fact, I was
considering doing this again... but... instead of buying a newer laptop and
worrying about chip compatibility, I actually am considering buying an
older compatible Thinkpad on Ebay. They are only a couple hundred dollars
now and honestly are fine speed-wise to run something as low intensity as
plan9. Something to consider.

D


On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:08 PM  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here:
> https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is
> supported by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to
> other Thinkpad models?
>
> 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily
> transferable to 9legacy?
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> Best regards,
> alex
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
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>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks

[David Leimbach via 9fans]

Or you could just run 9front?Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 24, 2024, at 10:48 AM, alex...@posteo.de wrote:
Hello everyone,I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is supported by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models?9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily transferable to 9legacy?Many thanks in advance!Best regards, alex

9fans
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discussions
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Permalink

[9fans] Supported Notebooks

[alex-ml]

Hello everyone,

I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: 
https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is supported by 
Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad 
models?

9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily 
transferable to 9legacy?

Many thanks in advance!

Best regards, 
alex
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