RE: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Tom and others, Here are some Web sites which specialize in shortcut key lists. www.keyxl.com<http://www.keyxl.com> www.allhotkeys.com<http://www.allhotkeys.com> www.shortcutworld.com<http://www.shortcutworld.com> From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomc...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:04 AM To: David Goldfield Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac Hi :) Thanks :)) I didn't know about Alt being a way to get into or out of menus/ribbon-bar. On Ubuntu it brings up the "HUD" which allows people to type in what they want to do, instead of having to search through menus. I had forgotten the Alt F4 for closing a window/console. I have often used Ctrl w to close a document/tab but keep the main window open = usually most useful in a web-browser but still useful in other apps sometimes. I think even just knowing a few greatly helps people, even fully sighted users gain a lot by using them. Errr, i just found this ZdNet article http://www.zdnet.com/article/intel-stephen-hawking-aim-to-spur-assistive-technology-development/ I think getting a celebrity actively promoting assistive technologies might be a help. Stephen Hawkings seems to have quite a reputation for being a curious mix of friendly but demanding and seems good at breaking down barriers. There are a couple of things that worry me. IBM's involvement suggests it's going to be entirely proprietary and even though there is a suggestion of it being free now it makes me wonder how long it would stay that way. On the other hand IBM have done some good for OpenSource too so i'm not sure. Regards from Tom :) On 3 December 2014 at 13:41, David Goldfield mailto:dgold...@asb.org>> wrote: Hi. I've been a screen reader user since 1991 when I started out with DOS 3.X and so I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about this topic. When you are dependent on using a screen reader, it helps if you can memorize shortcut keys. The more keys you can memorize, the more efficient you will likely be with computer navigation. For people who just don't do well in memorizing shortcut keys, teaching them how to use a program's menu bar or ribbon UI can be of great help, as this presents a simple way of getting to all of the commands contained within a given program. Many shortcut keys are quite intuitive and easy to remember: ctrl-S for save, ctrl-O for open, ctrl-P for print, etc. The alt key places focus in or out of the menu/ribbons and alt-f4, at least in Windows, is used to close the currently active window or, in many cases, running app. -Original Message- From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomc...@gmail.com<mailto:tomc...@gmail.com>] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:15 AM To: MENGUAL Jean-Philippe Cc: Alex Thurgood; Accessibility@global.libreoffice.org<mailto:Accessibility@global.libreoffice.org> Subject: Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac Hi :) I am mildly curious about how people work with screen-readers when they are completely dependant on them. I can often work without a mouse by using some keyboard short-cuts and using tab to go through menus. To some extent i've memorised some of 'the' keyboard (thanks to Mavis Beacon and other touch-typing courses) so i could probably find the tab key without needing to see it but a lot of times i would be completely stuck I was hoping that being on this mailing list might reveal some tricks that a lot of people use but mostly it's been really technical stuff here. No-one here seems to need or ask questions about just workflow or for hints and tips, yet. Maybe that will change once LO is easier to set-up for accessibility, ie once java dependence is no longer an issue. I've been quite glad to see the highly technical answers too, of course but it's all just beyond me. Luckily i've not had to set-up a system for anyone needing it but i keep having little trial-runs at it. One day i should make a serious attempt and maybe then things will become a lot clearer. Regards from Tom :) On 3 December 2014 at 09:38, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe mailto:mengualjean...@free.fr>> wrote: > Hi. > > Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with "Voiceover", > that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the > dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and characters > formatting? > > The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of > the lack of resource for this architecture, but I wonder if someone > tested anyway; > > Regards > > - Alex Thurgood mailto:alex.thurg...@gmail.com>> > a écrit : > > Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : > > > > Hi Jean-Philippe > > > > > > > Does some
Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Hi :) Thanks :)) I didn't know about Alt being a way to get into or out of menus/ribbon-bar. On Ubuntu it brings up the "HUD" which allows people to type in what they want to do, instead of having to search through menus. I had forgotten the Alt F4 for closing a window/console. I have often used Ctrl w to close a document/tab but keep the main window open = usually most useful in a web-browser but still useful in other apps sometimes. I think even just knowing a few greatly helps people, even fully sighted users gain a lot by using them. Errr, i just found this ZdNet article http://www.zdnet.com/article/intel-stephen-hawking-aim-to-spur-assistive-technology-development/ I think getting a celebrity actively promoting assistive technologies might be a help. Stephen Hawkings seems to have quite a reputation for being a curious mix of friendly but demanding and seems good at breaking down barriers. There are a couple of things that worry me. IBM's involvement suggests it's going to be entirely proprietary and even though there is a suggestion of it being free now it makes me wonder how long it would stay that way. On the other hand IBM have done some good for OpenSource too so i'm not sure. Regards from Tom :) On 3 December 2014 at 13:41, David Goldfield wrote: > Hi. > I've been a screen reader user since 1991 when I started out with DOS 3.X > and so I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about this topic. > > When you are dependent on using a screen reader, it helps if you can > memorize shortcut keys. The more keys you can memorize, the more efficient > you will likely be with computer navigation. For people who just don't do > well in memorizing shortcut keys, teaching them how to use a program's menu > bar or ribbon UI can be of great help, as this presents a simple way of > getting to all of the commands contained within a given program. Many > shortcut keys are quite intuitive and easy to remember: ctrl-S for save, > ctrl-O for open, ctrl-P for print, etc. The alt key places focus in or out > of the menu/ribbons and alt-f4, at least in Windows, is used to close the > currently active window or, in many cases, running app. > > -Original Message- > From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomc...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:15 AM > To: MENGUAL Jean-Philippe > Cc: Alex Thurgood; Accessibility@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac > > Hi :) > I am mildly curious about how people work with screen-readers when they > are completely dependant on them. > > I can often work without a mouse by using some keyboard short-cuts and > using tab to go through menus. To some extent i've memorised some of 'the' > keyboard (thanks to Mavis Beacon and other touch-typing courses) so i could > probably find the tab key without needing to see it but a lot of times i > would be completely stuck > > I was hoping that being on this mailing list might reveal some tricks that > a lot of people use but mostly it's been really technical stuff here. > No-one here seems to need or ask questions about just workflow or for hints > and tips, yet. Maybe that will change once LO is easier to set-up for > accessibility, ie once java dependence is no longer an issue. > > I've been quite glad to see the highly technical answers too, of course > but it's all just beyond me. Luckily i've not had to set-up a system for > anyone needing it but i keep having little trial-runs at it. One day i > should make a serious attempt and maybe then things will become a lot > clearer. > Regards from > Tom :) > > > > On 3 December 2014 at 09:38, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe > > wrote: > > > Hi. > > > > Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with "Voiceover", > > that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the > > dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and characters > > formatting? > > > > The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of > > the lack of resource for this architecture, but I wonder if someone > > tested anyway; > > > > Regards > > > > - Alex Thurgood a écrit : > > > Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : > > > > > > Hi Jean-Philippe > > > > > > > > > > Does someone is LibreOffice is accessible with VoiceOver as 4.3.4? > > > > > > > > > > Accessible in which way ? > > > > > > My recent testing of VoiceOver on OSX 10.10.1 and LO 4334 and master > > > build 4.5.0 alpha shows that it mostly works for announcing text >
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Hi, Thanks for this excellent answer, full and clear. I will forward it to my friend. He uses Mac yes, and would like to know the accessibility level on LO. Unfortunately he doesn't speak English, but I do interface without problems. Thanks, Best regards, Le 03/12/2014 14:56, Niklas Johansson a écrit : Hi Jean-Philippe Well, I'd say that we have basic working accessibility support on Mac. It is by far the platform that needs most love when it comes to accessibility. But it is possible to work with VoiceOver to edit text, Calc sheets and so on. Basic text formatting such as bold, italic, font size and alignment is available thanks to Boris work one and a half year ago. Also information of spelling errors can be presented. Style formatting is worse, I guess an ugly way to find out the current style is to open Styles and formatting by pressing Command + T, the current style is sadly not presented automatically so you need to arrow down one and back up again to have the style presented. We have problems with all menus except top level menus, so in other words combo boxes, drop down buttons and context menus are not accessible at the moment. Also VoiceOver commands are not always implemented correctly so keyboard shortcuts don't always work as in other Mac applications. LibreOffice had issues with text boxes in dialogs, but I believe I have found a way to fix it, or possibly someone else have fixed it in master during my experimentations with the code, either way it will likely be fixed soon. I'll keep trying to improve the situation but to be honest my knowledge is not always good enough, but I learn as I go. I'm doing this in my spare time and it is quite frankly I do not have enough spare time. I'm alone in translating into Swedish so I'm quite swamped with translation work at the moment. I would love to have contact with anyone that might be using VoiceOver. Regards, Niklas Johansson MENGUAL Jean-Philippe skrev den 2014-12-03 10:38: Hi. Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with voiceover, that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and charachters formatting? The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of the lack of resource for this architectuure, but I wonder if someone tested anyway; Regards - Alex Thurgood a écrit : Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : Hi Jean-Philippe Does someone is LibreOffice is accessible with VoiceOver as 4.3.4? Accessible in which way ? My recent testing of VoiceOver on OSX 10.10.1 and LO 4334 and master build 4.5.0 alpha shows that it mostly works for announcing text paragraphs from a pre-existing Writer document and using keyboard commands to jump from one text block to another. I haven't tested speech input, if that is what you are asking about. There is an open, as yet unconfirmed, bug report that speech input stopped working with LO 4.3. The simple fact of the matter is that there are very few Mac QA testers, and even fewer that use or need VoiceOver, one of the reasons being that assistive technology tools tended to cause LO to crash in previous versions, and thus general advice was to deactivate them when using LO. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jean-Philippe MENGUAL accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients visuels Mail: te...@accelibreinfo.eu Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Hi Jean-Philippe Well, I'd say that we have basic working accessibility support on Mac. It is by far the platform that needs most love when it comes to accessibility. But it is possible to work with VoiceOver to edit text, Calc sheets and so on. Basic text formatting such as bold, italic, font size and alignment is available thanks to Boris work one and a half year ago. Also information of spelling errors can be presented. Style formatting is worse, I guess an ugly way to find out the current style is to open Styles and formatting by pressing Command + T, the current style is sadly not presented automatically so you need to arrow down one and back up again to have the style presented. We have problems with all menus except top level menus, so in other words combo boxes, drop down buttons and context menus are not accessible at the moment. Also VoiceOver commands are not always implemented correctly so keyboard shortcuts don't always work as in other Mac applications. LibreOffice had issues with text boxes in dialogs, but I believe I have found a way to fix it, or possibly someone else have fixed it in master during my experimentations with the code, either way it will likely be fixed soon. I'll keep trying to improve the situation but to be honest my knowledge is not always good enough, but I learn as I go. I'm doing this in my spare time and it is quite frankly I do not have enough spare time. I'm alone in translating into Swedish so I'm quite swamped with translation work at the moment. I would love to have contact with anyone that might be using VoiceOver. Regards, Niklas Johansson MENGUAL Jean-Philippe skrev den 2014-12-03 10:38: Hi. Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with voiceover, that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and charachters formatting? The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of the lack of resource for this architectuure, but I wonder if someone tested anyway; Regards - Alex Thurgood a écrit : Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : Hi Jean-Philippe Does someone is LibreOffice is accessible with VoiceOver as 4.3.4? Accessible in which way ? My recent testing of VoiceOver on OSX 10.10.1 and LO 4334 and master build 4.5.0 alpha shows that it mostly works for announcing text paragraphs from a pre-existing Writer document and using keyboard commands to jump from one text block to another. I haven't tested speech input, if that is what you are asking about. There is an open, as yet unconfirmed, bug report that speech input stopped working with LO 4.3. The simple fact of the matter is that there are very few Mac QA testers, and even fewer that use or need VoiceOver, one of the reasons being that assistive technology tools tended to cause LO to crash in previous versions, and thus general advice was to deactivate them when using LO. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Hi. I've been a screen reader user since 1991 when I started out with DOS 3.X and so I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about this topic. When you are dependent on using a screen reader, it helps if you can memorize shortcut keys. The more keys you can memorize, the more efficient you will likely be with computer navigation. For people who just don't do well in memorizing shortcut keys, teaching them how to use a program's menu bar or ribbon UI can be of great help, as this presents a simple way of getting to all of the commands contained within a given program. Many shortcut keys are quite intuitive and easy to remember: ctrl-S for save, ctrl-O for open, ctrl-P for print, etc. The alt key places focus in or out of the menu/ribbons and alt-f4, at least in Windows, is used to close the currently active window or, in many cases, running app. -Original Message- From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomc...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:15 AM To: MENGUAL Jean-Philippe Cc: Alex Thurgood; Accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac Hi :) I am mildly curious about how people work with screen-readers when they are completely dependant on them. I can often work without a mouse by using some keyboard short-cuts and using tab to go through menus. To some extent i've memorised some of 'the' keyboard (thanks to Mavis Beacon and other touch-typing courses) so i could probably find the tab key without needing to see it but a lot of times i would be completely stuck I was hoping that being on this mailing list might reveal some tricks that a lot of people use but mostly it's been really technical stuff here. No-one here seems to need or ask questions about just workflow or for hints and tips, yet. Maybe that will change once LO is easier to set-up for accessibility, ie once java dependence is no longer an issue. I've been quite glad to see the highly technical answers too, of course but it's all just beyond me. Luckily i've not had to set-up a system for anyone needing it but i keep having little trial-runs at it. One day i should make a serious attempt and maybe then things will become a lot clearer. Regards from Tom :) On 3 December 2014 at 09:38, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote: > Hi. > > Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with voiceover, > that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the > dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and charachters > formatting? > > The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of > the lack of resource for this architectuure, but I wonder if someone > tested anyway; > > Regards > > - Alex Thurgood a écrit : > > Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : > > > > Hi Jean-Philippe > > > > > > > Does someone is LibreOffice is accessible with VoiceOver as 4.3.4? > > > > > > > Accessible in which way ? > > > > My recent testing of VoiceOver on OSX 10.10.1 and LO 4334 and master > > build 4.5.0 alpha shows that it mostly works for announcing text > > paragraphs from a pre-existing Writer document and using keyboard > > commands to jump from one text block to another. > > > > I haven't tested speech input, if that is what you are asking about. > > There is an open, as yet unconfirmed, bug report that speech input > > stopped working with LO 4.3. > > > > The simple fact of the matter is that there are very few Mac QA > > testers, and even fewer that use or need VoiceOver, one of the > > reasons being that assistive technology tools tended to cause LO to > > crash in previous versions, and thus general advice was to deactivate them > > when using LO. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: > accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: > > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot > > be > deleted > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: > accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted
Re: Re : [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: LO and Mac
Hi :) I am mildly curious about how people work with screen-readers when they are completely dependant on them. I can often work without a mouse by using some keyboard short-cuts and using tab to go through menus. To some extent i've memorised some of 'the' keyboard (thanks to Mavis Beacon and other touch-typing courses) so i could probably find the tab key without needing to see it but a lot of times i would be completely stuck I was hoping that being on this mailing list might reveal some tricks that a lot of people use but mostly it's been really technical stuff here. No-one here seems to need or ask questions about just workflow or for hints and tips, yet. Maybe that will change once LO is easier to set-up for accessibility, ie once java dependence is no longer an issue. I've been quite glad to see the highly technical answers too, of course but it's all just beyond me. Luckily i've not had to set-up a system for anyone needing it but i keep having little trial-runs at it. One day i should make a serious attempt and maybe then things will become a lot clearer. Regards from Tom :) On 3 December 2014 at 09:38, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote: > Hi. > > Thanks for this info. Actually I wonder how LO behaves with voiceover, > that is, is it possible to browse between toolbars, in the menus, the > dialogs, etc. For example, is it easy to handle styles and charachters > formatting? > > The question is asked to me by a blind user to do tests. I am aware of the > lack of resource for this architectuure, but I wonder if someone tested > anyway; > > Regards > > - Alex Thurgood a écrit : > > Le 03/12/2014 00:52, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit : > > > > Hi Jean-Philippe > > > > > > > Does someone is LibreOffice is accessible with VoiceOver as 4.3.4? > > > > > > > Accessible in which way ? > > > > My recent testing of VoiceOver on OSX 10.10.1 and LO 4334 and master > > build 4.5.0 alpha shows that it mostly works for announcing text > > paragraphs from a pre-existing Writer document and using keyboard > > commands to jump from one text block to another. > > > > I haven't tested speech input, if that is what you are asking about. > > There is an open, as yet unconfirmed, bug report that speech input > > stopped working with LO 4.3. > > > > The simple fact of the matter is that there are very few Mac QA testers, > > and even fewer that use or need VoiceOver, one of the reasons being that > > assistive technology tools tended to cause LO to crash in previous > > versions, and thus general advice was to deactivate them when using LO. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: > accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
