Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Gert Doering]

Hi Nikolas,

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 05:08:12PM +0200, Nikolas Pediaditis wrote:
> Please allow me to provide some clarification.
> 
> I can confirm that the RIPE NCC does take future deployments into account and 
> AS Numbers can be assigned in advance.
> 
> Regarding this specific case, there was a miscommunication that we have now 
> clarified directly in the request (which is still ongoing).

Thanks a lot.

So from a policy point of view, I see no urgent need to "fix" something
here (neither "the office clerk" nor "the policy" or "the understanding").

Of course we can always discuss whether to loosen up the policy further,
but that would be a formal policy change.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Nikolas Pediaditis]

Dear Aled, Gert, all,

Please allow me to provide some clarification.

I can confirm that the RIPE NCC does take future deployments into account and 
AS Numbers can be assigned in advance.

Regarding this specific case, there was a miscommunication that we have now 
clarified directly in the request (which is still ongoing).


Kind regards,

Nikolas Pediaditis
Assistant Manager Registration Services & Policy Development
RIPE NCC



> On 7 May 2019, at 14:30, Gert Doering  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 01:18:14PM +0100, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg 
> wrote:
>> I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
>> resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
>> guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
>> 
>> *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
>> 
>> The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
>> working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
>> before an AS can be issued.
>> 
>> This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention *to
>> become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?
> 
> Speaking as WG participant and long time LIR contact, this sounds funny 
> indeed.  And none of my AS requests so far have been for networks that
> were *already* multihomed (because, well, how can you be without an 
> AS number...).
> 
> 
>> I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS
>> number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
>> 
>> Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?
> 
> Now, speaking as WG chair, we can just toss the ball at Marco/Andrea
> from the NCC RS department and ask them to comment on this, and whether
> this is an issue of policy wording, misunderstanding, or possibly
> miscommunication (language barriers...).
> 
> We can also spend some time at the next meeting to discuss this in
> the WG meeting - that's what our time is for, have face to face chats
> to clarify intentions, interpretations, and possibly ways forward...
> 
> Gert Doering
>-- multi-hatted individual
> -- 
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
> 
> SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279



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Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

>
> Huh.
> So I was wondering if you realized that the outcome of your proposal was
> “all requests for an AS must be satisfied immediately”.
> But this sure looks like that is precisely what you meant.
> If that’s not what you meant, you might want to explain what the approval
> constraints should be.

The best thing is when any LIR may claim one AS for one customer without
any approval. Just if customer asking for AS - just give AS.
If customer asking for another and first AS is still spare (not multihomed)
then some strategy may be required.
Yes, it's good idea to delegate pre approved AS-list to LIR for assigning
to their customers.


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 17:55, Sandra Murphy  wrote:

>
> > On May 7, 2019, at 10:16 AM, Maxim A Piskunov  wrote:
> >
> > Possibility to have AS in advance - it's operator freedom in actions.
>
> > Anybody can be applicant for AS.
>
>
> Huh.
>
> So I was wondering if you realized that the outcome of your proposal was
> “all requests for an AS must be satisfied immediately”.
>
> But this sure looks like that is precisely what you meant.
>
> If that’s not what you meant, you might want to explain what the approval
> constraints should be.
>
> —Sandy
>
>
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg]

Hi all,

I've already drafted a policy proposal to make a change on this, but if I got 
it correctly, the chairs were believing that it was not needed, so I never 
officially submitted it.

I'm happy to submit it again.

It may be interesting for all the list participants to read my policy proposal 
about this exact same point in AfriNIC:

https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-asn-001-d2#proposal


Regards,
Jordi
 
 

El 7/5/19 10:54, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Sander Steffann" 
 escribió:

Hi Paul,

> I personally have no problem with making it easier to obtain an AS if you 
intend to multihome at some point in the future (measured in years if necessary 
- let people who want to do the Right Thing from day one do that).  There are 
plenty of 32 bit AS numbers available, they are not a scarce resource and we as 
a community should probably not treat them as such.

This!

Cheers,
Sander





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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Sandra Murphy]

> On May 7, 2019, at 10:16 AM, Maxim A Piskunov  wrote:
> 
> Possibility to have AS in advance - it's operator freedom in actions.

> Anybody can be applicant for AS.


Huh.  

So I was wondering if you realized that the outcome of your proposal was “all 
requests for an AS must be satisfied immediately”. 

But this sure looks like that is precisely what you meant.

If that’s not what you meant, you might want to explain what the approval 
constraints should be.

—Sandy

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Sander Steffann]

Hi Paul,

> I personally have no problem with making it easier to obtain an AS if you 
> intend to multihome at some point in the future (measured in years if 
> necessary - let people who want to do the Right Thing from day one do that).  
> There are plenty of 32 bit AS numbers available, they are not a scarce 
> resource and we as a community should probably not treat them as such.

This!

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

>
> Please keep your language polite.  As I already said - let's ask Marco
> and Andrea for feedback what happened, and whether they need some sort
> of guidance statement and/or wording change for us.
> And, please, do proper quoting.  "fullquote-style" is frowned upon here.
> Attachments area


Thanks.
Please ask other people the same - to keep their thoughts about how other
people should to do their works.
When people trying to change some fundamental principles of freedom of
choice, it's very painy.
Possibility to have AS in advance - it's operator freedom in actions.
Anybody can't try to disable this possibility. I am shame people who trying
to take it from us.
Anybody can be applicant for AS. Even if currently network not multihomed.


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 17:03, Gert Doering  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 04:51:13PM +0300, Maxim A Piskunov wrote:
> > It is very strange situation, when network component is ready and we
> should
> > wait some time while obtaining AS. It's bullshit of office clerk.
>
> Please keep your language polite.  As I already said - let's ask Marco
> and Andrea for feedback what happened, and whether they need some sort
> of guidance statement and/or wording change for us.
>
> And, please, do proper quoting.  "fullquote-style" is frowned upon here.
>
> Gert Doering
> -- APWG chair
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>
> SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael
> Emmer
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 05:16:11PM +0300, Maxim A Piskunov wrote:
> > Please keep your language polite.  As I already said - let's ask Marco
> > and Andrea for feedback what happened, and whether they need some sort
> > of guidance statement and/or wording change for us.
> > And, please, do proper quoting.  "fullquote-style" is frowned upon here.
> > Attachments area
> 
> Thanks.
> Please ask other people the same - to keep their thoughts about how other
> people should to do their works.

I do.  As WG chair it's part of my job to keep the discussion polite,
and encourage clarification from the NCC.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

I explain a little more detailed.
Obtained in advance AS has about zero cost.
Real network resources has a solid costs. Resources should be registered at
first, like we register a firm before start to do something. We need some
lawful resource ability confirmation at first.


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 16:53, Paul Thornton  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 07/05/2019 14:34, Dominik Nowacki wrote:
> > Hi Maxim,
> > What stops you from applying for the ASN once the cables are buried
> > several years down the road, and while the build process is ongoing from
> > using a default route instead ?
>
> Nothing, of course.
>
> But it is a little hard to announce your own address space behind a
> provider if you don't have an AS.  And having your upstream originate it
> just means pain (and usually downtime) whilst they convert you from a
> non-BGP service to a BGP-enabled one.
>
> I personally have no problem with making it easier to obtain an AS if
> you intend to multihome at some point in the future (measured in years
> if necessary - let people who want to do the Right Thing from day one do
> that).  There are plenty of 32 bit AS numbers available, they are not a
> scarce resource and we as a community should probably not treat them as
> such.
>
> Paul.
>
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 04:51:13PM +0300, Maxim A Piskunov wrote:
> It is very strange situation, when network component is ready and we should
> wait some time while obtaining AS. It's bullshit of office clerk.

Please keep your language polite.  As I already said - let's ask Marco
and Andrea for feedback what happened, and whether they need some sort
of guidance statement and/or wording change for us.

And, please, do proper quoting.  "fullquote-style" is frowned upon here.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

I strongly take position that at least one AS any company may have in
advance. It's nothing, but it's make further pain is void.

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 16:55, Hansen, Christoffer 
wrote:

>
> On 07/05/2019 14:18, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg wrote:
> > I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
> > resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
> > guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
> >
> > *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
> >
> > The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
> > working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
> > before an AS can be issued.
> >
> > This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention
> *to
> > become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?
> >
> > I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an
> AS
> > number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
> >
> > Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?
>
> Pointing to RFC 1930 and pointing out you will want to move
> - from "Single-homed site, multiple prefixes"
> - to "Multi-homed site, multiple prefixes"
> requires you be assigned an ASN.
>
> You can ask the the NCC analyst, if it is alright to provide them with
> agreements with existing upstream provider A and future upstream
> provider B is sufficient to be assigned the ASN(?)
>
> -Christoffer
>
> 
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1930#section-5.1
>
>*Single-homed site, multiple prefixes
>
> Again, a separate AS is not needed; the prefixes should be
> placed in an AS of the site's provider.
>
>*Multi-homed site
>
> Here multi-homed is taken to mean a prefix or group of prefixes
> which connects to more than one service provider (i.e. more than
> one AS with its own routing policy). It does not mean a network
> multi-homed running an IGP for the purposes of resilience.
>
> An AS is required; the site's prefixes should be part of a
> single AS, distinct from the ASes of its service providers.
> This allows the customer the ability to have a different repre-
> sentation of policy and preference among the different service
> providers.
> This is ALMOST THE ONLY case where a network operator should
> create its own AS number. In this case, the site should ensure
> that it has the necessary facilities to run appropriate routing
> protocols, such as BGP4.
>
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Hansen, Christoffer]

On 07/05/2019 14:18, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg wrote:
> I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
> resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
> guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
> 
> *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
> 
> The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
> working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
> before an AS can be issued.
> 
> This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention *to
> become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?
> 
> I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS
> number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
> 
> Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?

Pointing to RFC 1930 and pointing out you will want to move
- from "Single-homed site, multiple prefixes"
- to "Multi-homed site, multiple prefixes"
requires you be assigned an ASN.

You can ask the the NCC analyst, if it is alright to provide them with
agreements with existing upstream provider A and future upstream
provider B is sufficient to be assigned the ASN(?)

-Christoffer



https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1930#section-5.1

   *Single-homed site, multiple prefixes

Again, a separate AS is not needed; the prefixes should be
placed in an AS of the site's provider.

   *Multi-homed site

Here multi-homed is taken to mean a prefix or group of prefixes
which connects to more than one service provider (i.e. more than
one AS with its own routing policy). It does not mean a network
multi-homed running an IGP for the purposes of resilience.

An AS is required; the site's prefixes should be part of a
single AS, distinct from the ASes of its service providers.
This allows the customer the ability to have a different repre-
sentation of policy and preference among the different service
providers.
This is ALMOST THE ONLY case where a network operator should
create its own AS number. In this case, the site should ensure
that it has the necessary facilities to run appropriate routing
protocols, such as BGP4.

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Paul Thornton]

Hi,

On 07/05/2019 14:34, Dominik Nowacki wrote:

Hi Maxim,
What stops you from applying for the ASN once the cables are buried
several years down the road, and while the build process is ongoing from
using a default route instead ?


Nothing, of course.

But it is a little hard to announce your own address space behind a 
provider if you don't have an AS.  And having your upstream originate it 
just means pain (and usually downtime) whilst they convert you from a 
non-BGP service to a BGP-enabled one.


I personally have no problem with making it easier to obtain an AS if 
you intend to multihome at some point in the future (measured in years 
if necessary - let people who want to do the Right Thing from day one do 
that).  There are plenty of 32 bit AS numbers available, they are not a 
scarce resource and we as a community should probably not treat them as 
such.


Paul.

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

>What stops you from applying for the ASN once the cables are buried
several years down the road, and while the build process is ongoing from
using a default route instead ?
When build process is done, it should start work.
It is very strange situation, when network component is ready and we should
wait some time while obtaining AS. It's bullshit of office clerk.
AS maybe and should be obtained in advance and to be ready for use.

Try to understand from operators needs, not declare to operator how
operator should do his business, okey?


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 16:34, Dominik Nowacki 
wrote:

> Hi Maxim,
> What stops you from applying for the ASN once the cables are buried
> several years down the road, and while the build process is ongoing from
> using a default route instead ?
>
> With Kind Regards,
> Dominik Nowacki
>
> Clouvider Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales.
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> Street, London, United Kingdom, EC2V 7RS*. Please note that Clouvider
> Limited may monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for
> the purposes of security and staff training. This message contains
> confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipient.
> If you do not believe you are the intended recipient you should not
> disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify
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>
> On 7 May 2019, at 14:24, Maxim A Piskunov  wrote:
>
> Hi, all!
>
> Since time when AS was obtained to time when network will become
> multihomed may passed some time, up to several years.
> It's mean several kilometers of cables should be buried in the ground
> before it happens. In some cases. Or the same onether kinds of tasks should
> be done.
> It's not mean that some guys, who put on their eyes pink glasses, should
> decide for all other that network should already multihomed from scratch.
> No!
> Network should be multihomed by design - it's enough.
>
>
> On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 15:30, Gert Doering  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 01:18:14PM +0100, Aled Morris via
>> address-policy-wg wrote:
>> > I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
>> > resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
>> > guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
>> >
>> > *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
>> >
>> > The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC
>> analyst
>> > working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
>> > before an AS can be issued.
>> >
>> > This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention
>> *to
>> > become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?
>>
>> Speaking as WG participant and long time LIR contact, this sounds funny
>> indeed.  And none of my AS requests so far have been for networks that
>> were *already* multihomed (because, well, how can you be without an
>> AS number...).
>>
>>
>> > I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have
>> an AS
>> > number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming
>> first?
>> >
>> > Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?
>>
>> Now, speaking as WG chair, we can just toss the ball at Marco/Andrea
>> from the NCC RS department and ask them to comment on this, and whether
>> this is an issue of policy wording, misunderstanding, or possibly
>> miscommunication (language barriers...).
>>
>> We can also spend some time at the next meeting to discuss this in
>> the WG meeting - that's what our time is for, have face to face chats
>> to clarify intentions, interpretations, and possibly ways forward...
>>
>> Gert Doering
>> -- multi-hatted individual
>> --
>> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>>
>> SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael
>> Emmer
>> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
>> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
>> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
>>
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Dominik Nowacki]

Hi Maxim,
What stops you from applying for the ASN once the cables are buried several 
years down the road, and while the build process is ongoing from using a 
default route instead ?

With Kind Regards,
Dominik Nowacki

Clouvider Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. 
Registered number: 08750969. Registered office: 88 Wood Street, 
London, United Kingdom, EC2V 7RS. Please note that Clouvider Limited may 
monitor email traffic data and also the content of email for the purposes of 
security and staff training. This message contains confidential information and 
is intended only for the intended recipient. If you do not believe you are the 
intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. 
Please notify ab...@clouvider.net of this e-mail 
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On 7 May 2019, at 14:24, Maxim A Piskunov 
mailto:ffa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi, all!

Since time when AS was obtained to time when network will become multihomed may 
passed some time, up to several years.
It's mean several kilometers of cables should be buried in the ground before it 
happens. In some cases. Or the same onether kinds of tasks should be done.
It's not mean that some guys, who put on their eyes pink glasses, should decide 
for all other that network should already multihomed from scratch.
No!
Network should be multihomed by design - it's enough.


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 15:30, Gert Doering 
mailto:g...@space.net>> wrote:
Hi,

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 01:18:14PM +0100, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg 
wrote:
> I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
> resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
> guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
>
> *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
>
> The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
> working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
> before an AS can be issued.
>
> This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention *to
> become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?

Speaking as WG participant and long time LIR contact, this sounds funny
indeed.  And none of my AS requests so far have been for networks that
were *already* multihomed (because, well, how can you be without an
AS number...).


> I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS
> number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
>
> Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?

Now, speaking as WG chair, we can just toss the ball at Marco/Andrea
from the NCC RS department and ask them to comment on this, and whether
this is an issue of policy wording, misunderstanding, or possibly
miscommunication (language barriers...).

We can also spend some time at the next meeting to discuss this in
the WG meeting - that's what our time is for, have face to face chats
to clarify intentions, interpretations, and possibly ways forward...

Gert Doering
-- multi-hatted individual
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Maxim A Piskunov]

Hi, all!

Since time when AS was obtained to time when network will become multihomed
may passed some time, up to several years.
It's mean several kilometers of cables should be buried in the ground
before it happens. In some cases. Or the same onether kinds of tasks should
be done.
It's not mean that some guys, who put on their eyes pink glasses, should
decide for all other that network should already multihomed from scratch.
No!
Network should be multihomed by design - it's enough.


On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 15:30, Gert Doering  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 01:18:14PM +0100, Aled Morris via
> address-policy-wg wrote:
> > I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
> > resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
> > guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
> >
> > *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
> >
> > The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
> > working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
> > before an AS can be issued.
> >
> > This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention
> *to
> > become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?
>
> Speaking as WG participant and long time LIR contact, this sounds funny
> indeed.  And none of my AS requests so far have been for networks that
> were *already* multihomed (because, well, how can you be without an
> AS number...).
>
>
> > I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an
> AS
> > number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
> >
> > Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?
>
> Now, speaking as WG chair, we can just toss the ball at Marco/Andrea
> from the NCC RS department and ask them to comment on this, and whether
> this is an issue of policy wording, misunderstanding, or possibly
> miscommunication (language barriers...).
>
> We can also spend some time at the next meeting to discuss this in
> the WG meeting - that's what our time is for, have face to face chats
> to clarify intentions, interpretations, and possibly ways forward...
>
> Gert Doering
> -- multi-hatted individual
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>
> SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael
> Emmer
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
>

Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 01:18:14PM +0100, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg 
wrote:
> I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
> resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
> guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:
> 
> *A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*
> 
> The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
> working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
> before an AS can be issued.
> 
> This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention *to
> become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?

Speaking as WG participant and long time LIR contact, this sounds funny 
indeed.  And none of my AS requests so far have been for networks that
were *already* multihomed (because, well, how can you be without an 
AS number...).


> I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS
> number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?
> 
> Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?

Now, speaking as WG chair, we can just toss the ball at Marco/Andrea
from the NCC RS department and ask them to comment on this, and whether
this is an issue of policy wording, misunderstanding, or possibly
miscommunication (language barriers...).

We can also spend some time at the next meeting to discuss this in
the WG meeting - that's what our time is for, have face to face chats
to clarify intentions, interpretations, and possibly ways forward...

Gert Doering
-- multi-hatted individual
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG  Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Re: [address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Dominik Nowacki]

Aled,
You could come up with a policy proposal to change the wording. With that’s 
said I wouldn’t say this is required. This is a common sense issue. Naturally 
if you can prove you’re multihoming the future network, so you have two ASNa 
that will peer with $NEWAS and they are happy to confirm it, I wouldn’t see a 
reason for this to be an issue, you might want to escalate it to within the NCC 
so the manager of said analyst could look into it.

If you currently have only one peer and no solid plans to immediately turn up 
the other one for the new AS, so it is multihomed, I’d say the analyst is right 
in causing a fuss about it - ASNs are allocated for multihoming.

With Kind Regards,
Dominik Nowacki

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On 7 May 2019, at 13:19, Aled Morris via address-policy-wg 
mailto:address-policy-wg@ripe.net>> wrote:

Hi all

I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and resources 
and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS guidelines 
RIPE-679, specifically:

A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.

The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst 
working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be already multihomed before 
an AS can be issued.

This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention to 
become multihomed should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?

I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS 
number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?

Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?

Aled

[address-policy-wg] Application for AS number

[Aled Morris via address-policy-wg]

Hi all

I'm in the process of helping a startup ISP get RIPE membership and
resources and have hit against a little bit of poor wording in the AS
guidelines RIPE-679, specifically:

*A network must be multihomed in order to qualify for an AS Number.*

The application for an AS number has been delayed because the NCC analyst
working on the ticket is claiming the ISP has to be *already multihomed*
before an AS can be issued.

This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.  Surely the intention *to
become multihomed* should be the requirement for obtaining an AS number?

I don't even see how you can be properly multihomed if you don't have an AS
number.  Are we supposed to implement some kind of NAT multihoming first?

Can we look to change the wording in RIPE-679 to make this clear?

Aled

Re: [address-policy-wg] 2019-02 Review Phase (IPv4 Waiting List Implementation)

[Randy Bush]

> Policy proposal 2019-02, "IPv4 Waiting List Implementation" is now in
> the Review Phase.

/me supports

we are here to do what we can to make the internet work.  this helps by
making connectivity as available as possible given the circumstances.

randy