Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
Geoffrey == Geoffrey Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Geoffrey I can't say how disappointed I am in this post, and your Geoffrey behavior in general here. the fact is that this is a Geoffrey complex issue, for developers and users alike, but all you Geoffrey have done to help is throw harsh criticisms against those Geoffrey who work the hardest. do you really want to see mod_perl Geoffrey 2.0 fail? have you nothing to offer our community now Geoffrey besides criticisms and negative press? Geoffrey please be a part of the community and help make a good Geoffrey product even better - we can use all the genuine help we can Geoffrey get. I would hate to see your obvious talents used solely Geoffrey to disrespect to stas and the others who have worked very, Geoffrey very hard to bring you mod_perl. I *want* modperl to succeed. I *want* modperl2 to succeed. I believe Stas has made two significant errors in this process, however: 1) expecting people to not have modperl1 for a significant time following the modperl2 release, like everyone would upgrade tomorrow thus trivializing the overlap issue. 2) expecting every step of the Perl distribution network to accommodate the hacky use Apache2 solution instead of working on a more compatible solution. This means the CPAN indexer, the CPAN/CPANP installation tools, the perldoc command, and manpage installation (and others that I'm probably forgetting) which presume that Perl's installation @INC won't be magically mangled. I was not made aware of *either* of these errors until recently. So, maybe my ranting seems a bit day late and dollar short, but these mistakes are both critical to modperl2's acceptance into the mainstream. I would love to help. Tell me how. So far, the only thing I can see to do is to report these mistakes so that they can be discussed. I've seen reasonable support for my position... in fact, the only strong opposition appears to be Stas! And this is perfectly understandable. Stas has invested himself in an unworkable path. It'll take some work to sort it out. I'm willing to help with that. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
I *want* modperl to succeed. I *want* modperl2 to succeed. good :) I believe Stas has made two significant errors in this process, however: 1) expecting people to not have modperl1 for a significant time following the modperl2 release, like everyone would upgrade tomorrow thus trivializing the overlap issue. actually, I don't see that at all. the way it works now is that if mp2 sees a mp1 install it will install itself into Apache2/ to avoid confrontation. the result is that mp1 will continue to function in normal perl terms - the CPAN shell will do the right thing for mp1 modules (at least insofar as it used to), perldoc will work correctly, etc. so, in installing mp2 over mp1 the mp2 install should be invisible unless you take explicit steps to make it otherwise. if this isn't the case then it's an issue that should be immediately addressed, since that has been our goal since the start. mp1 should continue without interruption. the only kink here would be third-party CPAN modules for only mp2 - those are _required_ to use ModPerl::MM::WriteMakefile (which knows to install into Apache2/ if that's where mp2 was installed) instead of ExtUtils::MakeMaker::WriteMakefile. while I've tried to do my best here with a bunch of modules and perl.com articles, perhaps this point hasn't been clear enough to the masses and that should be addressed. 2) expecting every step of the Perl distribution network to accommodate the hacky use Apache2 solution instead of working on a more compatible solution. This means the CPAN indexer, the CPAN/CPANP installation tools, the perldoc command, and manpage installation (and others that I'm probably forgetting) which presume that Perl's installation @INC won't be magically mangled. I don't think we expect CPAN to grok Apache2, just the local filesystem and @INC. but you're right, the entire perldoc/CPAN/@INC thing is a real issue. however, it's not as simple as renaming everything Apache2::*. why? it just doesn't scale well. for example, there are _already_ compat issues between mod_perl for Apache 2.1/2.2 and Apache2.0, so right away we would need Apache2::* for modules that use the Apache 2.0 API and Apache2.2::* for those that use the 2.2 API. then perhaps Apache3::* someday, etc... so, it's a more complex issue than people give it credit for. and (unfortunately) mod_perl isn't the only one that suffers from it - stas has mentioned GD and I was recently troubled by SQLite, but I'm sure that there are other namespaces out there who struggle with versioning and external libraries. I was not made aware of *either* of these errors until recently. So, maybe my ranting seems a bit day late and dollar short, indeed. but we're here working it out instead of going off in a huff, which is the way it should be. kudos to all :) but these mistakes are both critical to modperl2's acceptance into the mainstream. well, perhaps. I can see how it would really affect users who rely heavily on the CPAN shell and perldoc, but I don't think it's as much of an issue for people used to using wget and the online docs. so, in other words, it probably affects the casual user more than the dedicated mod_perl application developer. but that's just my suspicion. in either case, something should be done to make things right. I would love to help. Tell me how. So far, the only thing I can see to do is to report these mistakes so that they can be discussed. I've seen reasonable support for my position... in fact, the only strong opposition appears to be Stas! And this is perfectly understandable. Stas has invested himself in an unworkable path. It'll take some work to sort it out. I'm willing to help with that. great! what I think really needs to happen is that there should be a common way for all things perl to deal with this issue - one that scales easily to many, many versions and that common perl tools understand. if one is developed mod_perl would certainly follow it. cpan-discuss@perl.org is where this specific issue seems to come and go, so perhaps that is the best place to sort it all out. but until there is a universal solution, it's difficult for us mod_perl dev people to do the right thing when no such thing exists. but let's work it out together, which I'm sure we can. --Geoff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Stas == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section: Stas http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?tid=145tid=2 Stas It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs. Oh good. Another place to post my use Apache2 considered harmful rant... http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957cid=11186211 Thanks for pointing it out. I can't say how disappointed I am in this post, and your behavior in general here. the fact is that this is a complex issue, for developers and users alike, but all you have done to help is throw harsh criticisms against those who work the hardest. do you really want to see mod_perl 2.0 fail? have you nothing to offer our community now besides criticisms and negative press? please be a part of the community and help make a good product even better - we can use all the genuine help we can get. I would hate to see your obvious talents used solely to disrespect to stas and the others who have worked very, very hard to bring you mod_perl. --Geoff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:09 PM, Stas Bekman wrote: You mean Apache::TestMB. Yeah, that ole thing. :-) I know someone who's name is David who can easily write a patch for this. David, it should really be: ModPerl::MB and Apache::TestMB should use it. Of course ModPerl::MB doesn't exist yet. That bastard is too lazy to work on it. ;-) us == perl, once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it will just work. Okay then. On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:19 PM, Stas Bekman wrote: Wait, what this has to do with Apache-Test at all? It should be ModPerl::MB (like ModPerl::MM). Or did you mean that Apache::TestMB doesn't try to load Apache2.pm? I haven't even noticed ModPerl::MM. I guess that would be because I haven't played with mod_perl2 yet. Hrm...can you tell me what, exactly, it does? It doesn't seem to have any documentation. Thanks, David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
Stas == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section: Stas http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml?tid=145tid=2 Stas It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs. Oh good. Another place to post my use Apache2 considered harmful rant... http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957cid=11186211 Thanks for pointing it out. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slashdot | Help Test mod_perl 2 Release Candidates
Stas My submission to /.org made it to the Apache section: Stas http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/25/1414211.shtml? tid=145tid=2 Stas It's about asking to help testing the mp2-RCs. Oh good. Another place to post my use Apache2 considered harmful rant... http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957cid=11186211 Thanks for pointing it out. Oh good. Another place to read Randal's use Apache2 considered harmful rant... Thanks for pointing it out. Is this considered a dead topic, or is there some consideration being given to the points he raises? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
