Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
In article 201008071633.14818.shlo...@iglu.org.il, Shlomi Fish shlo...@iglu.org.il wrote: Back when we discussed the NASA Uses Python in April, 2008, I said that: One day I'd like to read a message on this list that advocates Perl instead of focussing on what some other language is doing. Perhaps you could use all that energy you have to do more positive for Perl instead of worrying about what Python is doing.
Fwd: Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
Sending to the list as the sender declared it to be his intention. -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL Date: Sunday 08 August 2010, 20:41:50 From: Joel Limardo joel.lima...@forwardphase.com To: Shlomi Fish shlo...@iglu.org.il This is my first post to this list. I apologize in advance for its length. Shlomi got me thinking about COBOL and other languages like it in general so I wrote the following: perl-advocacy-1 === Author: Joel lima...@... Date: 2010/08/08 12:32:26 PM Table of Contents = 1 Why do you want more people to use Perl? 1.1 Advocacy in Question 1.2 Shouldn't we just use math puzzles? 1.3 Was this what Dijkstra was talking about? 1 Why do you want more people to use Perl? == 1.1 Advocacy in Question I liked this [ http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/yapc/2000-advocacy/slide2.html], particularly the question, ...why do you advocate Perl? Here's my answer: I'd like to see more people use Perl because it forces you to think creatively and, in effect, makes you smarter. 1.2 Shouldn't we just use math puzzles? --- I like the comparison between Perl and math puzzles because, to me, they represent the two opposite poles of the programming universe. Creativity and expressiveness on the one end and so-called correctness, conformity, and universality on the other. So why should we use Perl rather than simply do mathematical puzzles if we want to become smarter? I think mathematical puzzles build up a different set of mental muscles -- particularly ones that see problems as targets and programs as missles to be loaded, armed, and fired in the most efficient manner possible. The Perl credo 'there is more than one way to do it' implies at least two things: a) open-mindedness to other methods of achieving the same or similar result b) inquisitiveness to seek out other ways to achieve a result yourself from a different perspective. Let's face it, as programmers we are in the business or producing results; unless we would no longer like to be employed those results must be correct. But with Perl we get something intangible from the exercise of programming that we would not get from the lock-and-load, shortest-path-possible methods. I call that thing creativity. 1.3 Was this what Dijkstra was talking about? - I think Dijkstra was talking about this elusive quality I call creativity when he bashed COBOL, BASIC, and a ton of other languages as well as some approaches to computer languages in 1975 (see [http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html]). Consider Dijkstra's statement: The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence Here I think that Dijkstra is generally talking about the loss of creativity that he felt that the use COBOL produces in the average person. We find more statements in this vein when he describes BASIC: It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. If it is possible to cripple or mutilate one's mind with certain programming languages is it possible to make people smarter with others? I think the answer, again, can be derived (or deduced) from Dijkstra's own statements: The tools we use have a profound (and devios!) influence on our thinking habits, and, therefore, on our thinking abilities. In advocating Perl I am promoting a tool that encourages better thinking habits. Better thinking can have broad-reaching effects on business, government, and other areas where computing languages and other technical knowledge are employed. Therefore, more people should use Perl. On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@iglu.org.il wrote: Back when we discussed the NASA Uses Python in April, 2008, I said that: [quote] However, this thread gave me a really wicked idea for a parody site (not just of http://www.python.org/ of course), which I'm planning to take forward. [/quote] ( http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2394.html ) Now, due to some recent developments, I feel that I've kinda missed its boat, but I still set up a page which contains my old ideas: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/COBOL-the-New-Age-Programming- Language/ So now it's official - NASA Uses COBOL. Hope you enjoy it. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Humanity - Parody of Modern Life - http://shlom.in/humanity God considered inflicting XSLT as the tenth plague of Egypt, but then decided against it because he
Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
On Sat, Aug 07, 2010 at 04:33:14PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: So now it's official - NASA Uses COBOL. Hope you enjoy it. Like any other big organization that's been using computers since the 60s, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they still have some COBOL systems in use. I don't see what this has to do with Perl though. Walt
Re: Fwd: Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
Now replying. On Sunday 08 August 2010 21:06:23 Shlomi Fish wrote: Sending to the list as the sender declared it to be his intention. -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL Date: Sunday 08 August 2010, 20:41:50 From: Joel Limardo joel.lima...@forwardphase.com To: Shlomi Fish shlo...@iglu.org.il This is my first post to this list. I apologize in advance for its length. Shlomi got me thinking about COBOL and other languages like it in general so I wrote the following: perl-advocacy-1 === Author: Joel lima...@... Date: 2010/08/08 12:32:26 PM Table of Contents = 1 Why do you want more people to use Perl? 1.1 Advocacy in Question 1.2 Shouldn't we just use math puzzles? 1.3 Was this what Dijkstra was talking about? 1 Why do you want more people to use Perl? == 1.1 Advocacy in Question I liked this [ http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/yapc/2000-advocacy/slide2.html], particularly the question, ...why do you advocate Perl? Quoting from that page: Selfless reason: Perl saves companies money and we hate to see waste. - I disagree with calling this reason selfless. Selfless means having a complete disregard for one own's self, which is not healthy. While this may be a compassionate, caring, or altruistic reason - it is not selfless. For more information see: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/shlomif-fav.html#neo-tech- selfishness ( http://xrl.us/bhvhcs ). Here's my answer: I'd like to see more people use Perl because it forces you to think creatively and, in effect, makes you smarter. I'm all for things that make people smarter. 1.2 Shouldn't we just use math puzzles? --- I like the comparison between Perl and math puzzles because, to me, they represent the two opposite poles of the programming universe. Creativity and expressiveness on the one end and so-called correctness, conformity, and universality on the other. With many maths puzzles, there is more than one way to solve them (like in Perl). See for example, 85 proofs of the Pythagorean Theorem: http://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/ In fact, Larry Wall told this story about his daughter here: http://www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html [quote] Heidi said, ``You wanna know something really funny. In my IMP class, our class slogan is, 'There's more than one way to do it.''' ``You're kidding,'' I said. [I should also say that that IMP stands for Interactive Math Program, which is a math curriculum in which you sort of learn everything at once. In sort of a postmodern way.] Anyway, I said, ``You're kidding.'' ``No,'' she said, ``That's why IMP is better for math students like me--we learn better when we can see the big picture, and how everything fits in. The old way of learning math never gave you any context''. While I was digesting this, and thinking about how it applied to computer science, she went on, ``Well, it's like, you know, we have this saying at school, when somebody gets uptight about something, we say: 'Tsall good. If someone is depressed, we say: 'Tsall good.''' ``But you don't actually think everything is good, do you?'' ``No, of course not.'' ``Are you saying that everything has good elements in it?'' ``No, Dad, I think when we say that, we're saying that, overall, things are good. Like, look at the big picture, don't just focus in on the two or three bad things that are happening to you right now.'' I report this conversation to you not just because I think my kids are cute and smart, but also because I think it's important that we know where our culture is going, and because it's our kids that will shape our culture in the future. I don't think I could have defined postmodernism better than Heidi. Look at the big picture. Don't focus in on two or three things to the exclusion of other things. Keep everything in context. Don't go out of your way to justify stuff that's obviously cool. Don't ridicule ideas merely because they're not the latest and greatest. Pick your own fashions. Don't let someone else tell you what you should like. 'Tsall good. [/quote] I would not like maths if I didn't have some flexibility in reaching a solution (despite the fact that I naturally need some rigour and to play by the mathematical and logical rules.) So why should we use Perl rather than simply do mathematical puzzles if we want to become smarter? I think mathematical puzzles build up a different set of mental muscles -- particularly ones that see problems as targets and programs as missles to be loaded, armed, and fired in the most efficient manner possible. The Perl credo 'there is more than one way to do it' implies at least two things: a) open-mindedness to other methods
Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
On Sunday 08 August 2010 21:34:04 Walt Mankowski wrote: On Sat, Aug 07, 2010 at 04:33:14PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: So now it's official - NASA Uses COBOL. Hope you enjoy it. Like any other big organization that's been using computers since the 60s, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they still have some COBOL systems in use. I don't see what this has to do with Perl though. Well, nothing except for the fact that the idea for that page evolved from a discussion about the Python site on this list (advocacy@perl.org) . Well, maybe I'm also parodying my own http://perl-begin.org/ a little on that page (and similar sites for modern languages). I mentioned the entire story in the original message which you've trimmed. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Humanity - Parody of Modern Life - http://shlom.in/humanity God considered inflicting XSLT as the tenth plague of Egypt, but then decided against it because he thought it would be too evil. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
Re: [Slightly OT] NASA Uses COBOL
On Sunday 08 August 2010 22:29:16 Georgios Magklaras wrote: On 08/07/2010 03:33 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote: Back when we discussed the NASA Uses Python in April, 2008, I said that: [quote] However, this thread gave me a really wicked idea for a parody site (not just of http://www.python.org/ of course), which I'm planning to take forward. [/quote] ( http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.advocacy/2008/04/msg2394.html ) Now, due to some recent developments, I feel that I've kinda missed its boat, but I still set up a page which contains my old ideas: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/COBOL-the-New-Age-Programming-Langu age/ So now it's official - NASA Uses COBOL. Hope you enjoy it. Regards, Shlomi Fish NASA Uses COBOL. And so do: * Your bank ... COBOL is the old JAVA Actually, that's why I am worried about JAVA and changed my bank. The new one does not use JAVA to authenticate me to the net bank. Java's name is not spelled JAVA with all-capitals - just Java (with an initial capital letter). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_%28programming_language%29 In case you didn't get the joke, COBOL is the old Java is a twist on the Java is the new COBOL meme. I'm sorry to hear about your bank, but I also switched banks because my old bank's site hadn't supported Firefox. Regards, Shlomi Fish ... COBOL has an Object-Oriented Programming extension called ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL. So, ehmmm, MUL 1 times COBOL GIVING EMPTY OBJECT :-) -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan God considered inflicting XSLT as the tenth plague of Egypt, but then decided against it because he thought it would be too evil. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
