Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Quazie]

`A player may pend a Trivial Proposal by paying 1 Shiny to Agora without
Objection.`

 Thanks for the more concise wording, and you're now a co-author by my new
distinction of anyone who gives me a critique i take is a co-author.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:37 PM Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Quazie wrote:
>
> >  A player may pend a Trivial Proposal without Objection, by paying 1
> > Shiny to Agora.
> >  If an Objection occurs, this 1 paid Shiny may be used to as a
> partial
> > payment towards
> >  the cost of pending the proposal.
>
> Note that by rule 1728, "without Objection" requires an announcement of
> intent and at least 4 days later an announcement of the action itself. It
> seems more logical to me to make the payment part of the latter, making
> the partial payment part unnecessary.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

DIS: How to make an Agora Virus of a sort

[CuddleBeam]

So I tried to think of a way to somehow make a "virus" via agencies because
they're so computer-
like but I couldn't figure out a way to make some entity copy itself into
other Agencies by force.

I eventually figured that I'd need something that is driven by people
themselves. So I thought of the Albanian Virus meme (
http://i.imgur.com/s29Pfby.png), but leveraged by pledges/promises/agencies
of rewards to motivate people to do the service too so that its not
entirely charisma/humor-based, but rather, its having it be entirely
rational (formal profit-wise) to just take the payment and attempt to
spread the virus.

I can't think of one though, but the Albanian Virus + some economic
leverage seems to be the way to make some "Agoran Virus" which is driven by
people's own motivations and desire to get more currency.

It might tread even into a design similar to a formalized religion or cult,
given how it would seem that it would need to make other people into
pledge/agency-makers themselves or something which makes the concept all
the more interesting for me.

But yeah. I just can't think of a way yet to totally crystallize it to make
it be self-sustaining (doesn't "run out" when some central budget reaches
zero, it should be ideally decentralized but a centralized one could work
too I guess) and able to spread (should be relatively easy via
automatically rewarded publicity though) I believe.

I'm going to sleep on it but I hope I can figure out some kind of prototype
or find some kind of general rules which it would need to work, then see
how it runs.

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Quazie wrote:


 A player may pend a Trivial Proposal without Objection, by paying 1
Shiny to Agora.
 If an Objection occurs, this 1 paid Shiny may be used to as a partial
payment towards
 the cost of pending the proposal.


Note that by rule 1728, "without Objection" requires an announcement of 
intent and at least 4 days later an announcement of the action itself. It 
seems more logical to me to make the payment part of the latter, making 
the partial payment part unnecessary.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Joining the fun

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Quazie wrote:


How did you find us?

Why are you here?

What the heck is up with all these new players appearing?

I LOVE IT!


AAA It's an invasion!!!

Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:


I hereby file a Motion to Reconsider with 2 Support.

We actually do expect a judge to do further "scholarly" (if you like)
research into the rules to make their decisions with. If you are unwilling
to do such, you should remove yourself from the list of judges.


Since no one seems to have pointed this out, I suspect judge CuddleBeam's 
problem was not researching the relevant _rules_, but rather missing the 
vital _context_ that the real question here is whether the Rulekeepor has 
been given a Pink Slip.


Since I don't keep every Agora email, I don't recall whether this context 
was ever noticed in proper arguments, but this _is_ close to a worry I've 
been having about the new policy by Arbitor ais523 of only making 
assignments without collecting the arguments for the judge.


Greetings,
Ørjan.




Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:29 AM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:


The following between diamond symbols is my Judgement on CFJ 3509 for the
statement “Any player may take the office of Rulekeepor with 2 support.”

  ♦

DISMISSED. I lack enough evidence unfortunately. I wish I did know myself
though.



Casual reading of the rules doesn’t suggest to me anything that would
support your claim (I see a way to resign, to kick them off the seat
without 2 objections, and elections, but nothing more), although there
could entirely be a more obscure method via the which it definitely could
be formally achieved, e.g. a scam. I just don’t see it nor have the
explicit knowledge granted by evidence to know it. Judging FALSE would mean
that “Any player may NOT take the office of Rulekeepor with 2 support” is
TRUE, but I don’t have any conclusive evidence for that either. I could
attempt to dig deeper, but that would tread into the territory of needing
more than a “reasonable amount of time” to grant judgement. So dismissed.

  ♦



I apologize if the Judgement is disappointing but my level of
understanding of the rules is casual and non-scholarly and I don't believe
I am required or should be expected to have further knowledge than that,
because my ability to judge is based on my ability to assess and interpret
evidence, not my individual prior knowledge. (That or perhaps we should
require Judges to have achieved a certain Agoran Education Degree or have
achieved scam-based awards, would I be incorrect in my assumption.)

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

>Great Degree, Super Awesome Degree, Very Very Rad Degree...

goddamnit I laughed way harder than I should have lol

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

>Proto: For every thesis beyond a PhD-qualifying thesis that a >player submits,
e receives a  Degree where  is one >more positive
adjectives than the last degree e received had.

>PhD, Great Degree, Super Awesome Degree, Very Very Rad Degree...


goddamnit I laughed way harder than I should have lol

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Nic Evans]

On 05/25/2017 07:30 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
Ah, ok, sorry. I also wondering about that myself because what would 
happen if I max out at degrees yet still want to submit more thesis?


I just don't go higher I guess.

Or I become Magnum Philosopher Quad-PhD Thesispooper Supreme with 
Capuchino of Nomic or something I dunno.


Proto: For every thesis beyond a PhD-qualifying thesis that a player 
submits, e receives a  Degree where  is one more 
positive adjectives than the last degree e received had.


PhD, Great Degree, Super Awesome Degree, Very Very Rad Degree...

Re: Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

We could add higher degrees or we could award Certificates of High
Scholarship for any extra theses.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:30 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> Ah, ok, sorry. I also wondering about that myself because what would
> happen if I max out at degrees yet still want to submit more thesis?
>
> I just don't go higher I guess.
>
> Or I become Magnum Philosopher Quad-PhD Thesispooper Supreme with
> Capuchino of Nomic or something I dunno.
>

Re: Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

Ah, ok, sorry. I also wondering about that myself because what would happen
if I max out at degrees yet still want to submit more thesis?

I just don't go higher I guess.

Or I become Magnum Philosopher Quad-PhD Thesispooper Supreme with Capuchino
of Nomic or something I dunno.

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> On this topic, why can’t someone receive multiple of the same degree?

I dunno.

It wasn't in the earliest mail archive version of that rule, and I can't 
remember it ever being an issue.  I suppose there's some logic to requiring a
progression, or not awarding lots of low-effort lower degrees, doesn't seem
particularly important though.

Also, looking back at the earliest version, I love this bit:
  A person may use a Degree with eir name
   for any official or unofficial business if and only if e
   currently Bears that Degree.

("That's DOCTOR G. to you...")

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I wasn't saying we should change it, just wondering the original logic.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:20 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> I'm guessing that it likely just made sense to themselves at the time. Why
> would anyone even *try* to submit more than one thesis? Holy fuck. A
> *whole* thesis.
>
> Based on that suspicion, I think it's just spectacle creep that we
> consider that now to be a bit silly.
>
> Again, just guessing.
>

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

I'm guessing that it likely just made sense to themselves at the time. Why
would anyone even *try* to submit more than one thesis? Holy fuck. A
*whole* thesis.

Based on that suspicion, I think it's just spectacle creep that we consider
that now to be a bit silly.

Again, just guessing.

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

On this topic, why can’t someone receive multiple of the same degree?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On May 25, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 21:28 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> I also request to be laid off Judging as I'd like to dedicate my efforts
>> towards writing and nurturing a better system for these activities instead
>> of hijacking CFJs.
> 
> Noted.
> 
> -- 
> ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Herald] Let us begin the winning

[Quazie]

Once it's sent to Buisness - yep
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 16:48 Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Would someone mind doing Violet ribbons for everyone?  (I'd do it, but
> while persons can qualify, only players can award).
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > I resolve my intent to grant the Badge of the Great Agoran Revival.
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 21, 2017, at 6:10 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I hereby initiate a Victory Election with all players or announced
> non-players as valid options and the Herald as the vote collector. I would
> be in favor of all watchers (Ørjan and others) and G. putting emselves into
> the race. The ballots should be cast in an instant runoff format.
> > >
> > > For each player, I declare Apathy without objection with em as the set
> of players. If no objections are heard in the next four days, I will
> resolve this and many players will win.
> > >
> > > Finally, with Agoran Consent, I intend to grant the badge, "Badge of
> the Great Agoran Revival" to all persons who have sent a message to any
> Agoran Public Forum or agora-discussion@agoranomic.org in the month of
> May. This may be resolved as soon as four days from now. Also, I pledge to
> announce intent to award this badge to any person posting to any of the
> previously listed lists before May ends, but after this point.
> > > 
> > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Herald] Let us begin the winning

[Kerim Aydin]

Would someone mind doing Violet ribbons for everyone?  (I'd do it, but
while persons can qualify, only players can award).

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I resolve my intent to grant the Badge of the Great Agoran Revival.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On May 21, 2017, at 6:10 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I hereby initiate a Victory Election with all players or announced 
> > non-players as valid options and the Herald as the vote collector. I would 
> > be in favor of all watchers (Ørjan and others) and G. putting emselves into 
> > the race. The ballots should be cast in an instant runoff format.
> > 
> > For each player, I declare Apathy without objection with em as the set of 
> > players. If no objections are heard in the next four days, I will resolve 
> > this and many players will win. 
> > 
> > Finally, with Agoran Consent, I intend to grant the badge, "Badge of the 
> > Great Agoran Revival" to all persons who have sent a message to any Agoran 
> > Public Forum or agora-discussion@agoranomic.org in the month of May. This 
> > may be resolved as soon as four days from now. Also, I pledge to announce 
> > intent to award this badge to any person posting to any of the previously 
> > listed lists before May ends, but after this point.
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Herald] Let us begin the winning

[CuddleBeam]

>I resolve my intent to grant the Badge of the Great Agoran Revival.

I'm not sure you can do that on Discussion.

DIS: Re: BUS: [Herald] Let us begin the winning

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I resolve my intent to grant the Badge of the Great Agoran Revival.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On May 21, 2017, at 6:10 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> I hereby initiate a Victory Election with all players or announced 
> non-players as valid options and the Herald as the vote collector. I would be 
> in favor of all watchers (Ørjan and others) and G. putting emselves into the 
> race. The ballots should be cast in an instant runoff format.
> 
> For each player, I declare Apathy without objection with em as the set of 
> players. If no objections are heard in the next four days, I will resolve 
> this and many players will win. 
> 
> Finally, with Agoran Consent, I intend to grant the badge, "Badge of the 
> Great Agoran Revival" to all persons who have sent a message to any Agoran 
> Public Forum or agora-discussion@agoranomic.org in the month of May. This may 
> be resolved as soon as four days from now. Also, I pledge to announce intent 
> to award this badge to any person posting to any of the previously listed 
> lists before May ends, but after this point.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

Re: DIS: Sites Progress

[Kerim Aydin]

Yep!

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I could add that, would you think about adding the header, not dependent, 
> just a recommendation.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> 
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   On Thu, 25 May 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>   > * The original agora front page has been replicated, and is in the 
> process of
>   > being updated.
> 
>   Cool!!
> 
>   Do you mind if a top tab for Arbitor (or CotC) goes to my CFJ index?
>   (other option is to replace the lower "other websites" section, but
>   is there a reason a top tab can't link outside?)
> 
>   Eventually may move over there but don't want to interrupt progress
>   right now to move.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Sites Progress

[Gaelan Steele]

Will do when I get home 

Gaelan 

> On May 25, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Nic Evans wrote: 
>> * The original agora front page has been replicated, and is in the process of
>> being updated.
> 
> Cool!!
> 
> Do you mind if a top tab for Arbitor (or CotC) goes to my CFJ index?
> (other option is to replace the lower "other websites" section, but
> is there a reason a top tab can't link outside?)
> 
> Eventually may move over there but don't want to interrupt progress 
> right now to move.
> 
> 
> 

DIS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3515 assigned to Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

[Gaelan Steele]

FYI: I ruled a similar case as TRUE because "action" is undefined. 

Gaelan

> On May 25, 2017, at 4:14 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 2017-05-26 at 00:21 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> I pay 1 Shiny to Quazie, fulfilling, if it was ever valid, my Pledge
>> appended in the "Call for Piñata" CFJ (CFJ 3505). (Because they would
>> be the would-be recipient of my Pledge)
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> I CFJ the following statement: "The act of perfoming a '24 hours
>> Notice' is an action."
> 
> This is CFJ 3515. I assign it to Publius Scribonius Scholasticus.
> 
>> I present the following evidence:
>> 
>> * This is relevant to gameplay as it's important for self-referential
>> Powers in Agencies, for example, Big Graffiti Wall (Is granting the
>> power to also make the notice necessary or not?).
>> 
>> * Here is Big Grafitti Wall:
>> https://agoranomic.github.io/Superintendent/reports/month/next.txt
>> 
>> I bar grok from this case
> 
> -- 
> ais523
> Arbitor

Re: DIS: Sites Progress

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I could add that, would you think about adding the header, not dependent,
just a recommendation.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> > * The original agora front page has been replicated, and is in the
> process of
> > being updated.
>
> Cool!!
>
> Do you mind if a top tab for Arbitor (or CotC) goes to my CFJ index?
> (other option is to replace the lower "other websites" section, but
> is there a reason a top tab can't link outside?)
>
> Eventually may move over there but don't want to interrupt progress
> right now to move.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Sites Progress

[CuddleBeam]

This is superb and I love it.

DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer doesn't bribe a judge and then dials 00-JUDGEMENT

[Quazie]

Excitingly, this might be the shiny I gave you, maybe, much to o's chagrin.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:21 PM CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> I pay 1 Shiny to Quazie, fulfilling, if it was ever valid, my Pledge
> appended in the "Call for Piñata" CFJ (CFJ 3505). (Because they would be
> the would-be recipient of my Pledge)
>
>
> --
>
>
> I CFJ the following statement: "The act of perfoming a '24 hours Notice'
> is an action."
>
> I present the following evidence:
>
> * This is relevant to gameplay as it's important for self-referential
> Powers in Agencies, for example, Big Graffiti Wall (Is granting the power
> to also make the notice necessary or not?).
>
> * Here is Big Grafitti Wall:
> https://agoranomic.github.io/Superintendent/reports/month/next.txt
>
> I bar grok from this case
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 21:28 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
> I also request to be laid off Judging as I'd like to dedicate my efforts
> towards writing and nurturing a better system for these activities instead
> of hijacking CFJs.

Noted.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Sites Progress

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Nic Evans wrote: 
> * The original agora front page has been replicated, and is in the process of
> being updated.

Cool!!

Do you mind if a top tab for Arbitor (or CotC) goes to my CFJ index?
(other option is to replace the lower "other websites" section, but
is there a reason a top tab can't link outside?)

Eventually may move over there but don't want to interrupt progress 
right now to move.

DIS: Research Request

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

For general public reference and my work on a specific thesis, I would
appreciate if people could send me any notes or archives relating to Agora
that they have that they would be willing to be made public. I am mainly
looking for ones that are not currently public, but if you don't know, I
can sort it out for you.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

DIS: Sites Progress

[Nic Evans]

I declare, with no authority to do so, that the Github sites are 
complete enough to be Open for Business. To jump straight to it, here's 
the front page: https://agoranomic.github.io/


Here's a summary of recent work:

* The original agora front page has been replicated, and is in the 
process of being updated.

* A standardized Header is being rolled out to connect the sites.
* ADoP, Registrar, Superintendent, Herald, and Rulekeepor reports and 
drafts have received their own webpages which are maintained by the officer.
* The wiki is being reformatted to be primarily guide-based. I've 
started a guide on configuring your email (with a focus on gmail) and 
another on research tips. I'll be adding to them in the coming week(s) 
but, as it's a wiki, any additions are appreciated.


Much thanks to our team: Gaelan, PSS, Aris, o, and Quazie.

P.S. if you want to help or add your own office's repos, just let any of 
us know.

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Quazie  wrote:
> Speaking of GitHub (But more speaking of useful Officer Sites) - Aris do you
> have any intention of making an unofficial proposal pool visible to the
> masses?

Not yet unfortunately. Currently I prepare it manually just before I
post it. If I have time and it looks complicated, I post a draft a day
or two early for corrections. I'm looking towards automating the
preparation and just feeding in the proposals as JSON, at which point
I'll revisit posting it.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Quazie]

Speaking of GitHub (But more speaking of useful Officer Sites) - Aris do
you have any intention of making an unofficial proposal pool visible to the
masses?

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:20 PM Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 05/25/2017 03:16 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>
> Wrong forum goddamnit lol. Reposting:
>
> We could even sprinkle in some analysis of the game and then the creation
> of a new-comer sort of guide ("Bill Nye"/"Mythbusters"/"other flavor of
> informal" style, to better ease in the complexity? Creation of an
> introductory pamphlet of a sort of the game perhaps?)
>
>
> Informal guides fall under the intended purview of the wiki, which is
> currently part of the WIP github website. Speaking of, I think I'll be
> making a DIS post to describe our current progress and goals in a few hours.
>
> As for tracking and encouraging theses, I'm personally fine with leaving
> it our Herald or separating it, defering to the Herald's judgement.
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I think that unless people have major problems, we should try it as is with
some more activity and anyone wanting to help, I would be willing to try
and work with you possibly through agencies and for pay.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 05/25/2017 03:16 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>
> Wrong forum goddamnit lol. Reposting:
>
> We could even sprinkle in some analysis of the game and then the creation
> of a new-comer sort of guide ("Bill Nye"/"Mythbusters"/"other flavor of
> informal" style, to better ease in the complexity? Creation of an
> introductory pamphlet of a sort of the game perhaps?)
>
>
> Informal guides fall under the intended purview of the wiki, which is
> currently part of the WIP github website. Speaking of, I think I'll be
> making a DIS post to describe our current progress and goals in a few hours.
>
> As for tracking and encouraging theses, I'm personally fine with leaving
> it our Herald or separating it, defering to the Herald's judgement.
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Nic Evans]

On 05/25/2017 03:16 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:

Wrong forum goddamnit lol. Reposting:

We could even sprinkle in some analysis of the game and then the 
creation of a new-comer sort of guide ("Bill Nye"/"Mythbusters"/"other 
flavor of informal" style, to better ease in the complexity? Creation 
of an introductory pamphlet of a sort of the game perhaps?)




Informal guides fall under the intended purview of the wiki, which is 
currently part of the WIP github website. Speaking of, I think I'll be 
making a DIS post to describe our current progress and goals in a few hours.


As for tracking and encouraging theses, I'm personally fine with leaving 
it our Herald or separating it, defering to the Herald's judgement.

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Quazie]

I disagree - i have a lot of non-controvertial changes that I'm going to be
willing to make for 1 Shiny that I don't think deserve a ribbon.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I like the second ribbon change, but believe Red should be left as is
> because it can be hard to craft a well-written fix.
>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>
>> Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 3
>> {{{
>>   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
>> following text
>>   {{{
>>   Some proposals have minimal consequences, and thus should cost a
>>   minimal amount to pend, these proposals are known as Trivial
>> Proposals.
>>
>>   A player may pend a Trivial Proposal without Objection, by paying 1
>> Shiny to Agora.
>>   If an Objection occurs, this 1 paid Shiny may be used to as a
>> partial payment towards
>>   the cost of pending the proposal.
>>   }}}
>>
>>   Update rule 2438
>>   Replacing the paragraphs
>>   {{{
>>   Red (R): When a proposal is adopted and changes at least one
>>   rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.
>>
>>   Orange (O): When a proposal is adopted via an Agoran Decision on
>>   which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
>>   Ribbon.
>>   }}}
>>   with
>>   {{{
>>   Red (R): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted and changes at
>> least one
>>   rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.
>>
>>   Orange (O): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted via an Agoran
>> Decision on
>>   which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
>>   Ribbon.
>>   }}}
>> }}}
>>
>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM Quazie  wrote:
>>
>>> Ah-ha!  Thank you for the switch free wording.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM Aris Merchant <
>>> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Quazie  wrote:
 > Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
 > {{{
 >   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
 > following text
 >   {{{
 >   Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
 > proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
 > "standard" (default).
 >
 >   When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity
 to
 > "trivial" without objection.
 >
 >   If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
 > submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to
 "trivial"
 >
 >   A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
 > flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
 >   }}}
 > }}}
 >
 > Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?

 I'm suggesting that you should make it something like "a player may
 pend a proposal as trivial without objection, by paying 1 Shiny to
 Agora". I don't like having an extra switch sitting around that I have
 to keep track of, especially if it was required to be on my report.
 Doing it without a switch really simplifies the record keeping.

 -Aris

>>>
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:47 PM, grok (caleb vines)
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
> >> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go 
> >> along
> >> with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through donations
> >> with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
> >
> >
> > Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does have a
> > ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that University
> > Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player or person,
> > while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with years of
> > experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great shift to
> > distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of "levels" of
> > experience required for certain offices.
> I disagree. The Herald is already basically a historian, in charge of
> keeping track of Agoran history through titles, theises, and degrees.
> I don't see why a new office in needed for this.

In principle I think this fits very well into the Herald's general area; the
question is really how much new stuff is being added and therefore how much 
work,
and how you want the theme to evolve.  And as a society, I think it's nice to
spread employment around, *provided* we have willing hands.  If a player without
a job has a keen idea, it's good to spread the joy of office duties around, as
long as it doesn't become dormant right away, like the Reporter did (and if
it does become dormant, the Herald can always run for election for the new
office).

Interestingly, for a long time the responsibility was elsewhere, from R1370/13:
  The Rulekeepor shall retain a copy of each Final Thesis.

As an example of theme-evolution, the Herald used to be the Referee-equivalent,
because we considered the punishments to be a matter of lost honor, and past
version of cards were implemented as "negative" patent titles.  Split off
because of the workload, and once split on it gradually lost its connection to
"honor".

Someone (I forget who?) protoed a Historian office sometime in the last several
months.

Speaking of workload, I remind the Herald of the Silver Quill for Jan 2017, 
that never happened :).

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

Wrong forum goddamnit lol. Reposting:

We could even sprinkle in some analysis of the game and then the creation
of a new-comer sort of guide ("Bill Nye"/"Mythbusters"/"other flavor of
informal" style, to better ease in the complexity? Creation of an
introductory pamphlet of a sort of the game perhaps?)

For example:

Agora's is a crazy place you know? And it's a game of nomic, which is a big
reason why it's so awesome.

Join us!

But what the hell is a nomic?

Here's how a nomic goes down: yadda yadda...

 ---*---

As for the Uni Director/Herald, we could just grant both titles to the
Herald and if it works, keep it,, possibly just merge it back, if not,
change from there.

I'd prefer to actually try both options live, since it doesn't seem
particularly dangerous to do so. It's just pretty mundane tracking and
coordination.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:13 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> We could even sprinkle in some analysis of the game and then the creation
> of a new-comer sort of guide ("Bill Nye"/"Mythbusters"/"other flavor of
> informal" style, to better ease in the complexity? Creation of an
> introductory pamphlet of a sort of the game perhaps?)
>
> For example:
>
> Agora's is a crazy place you know? And it's a game of nomic, which is a
> big reason why it's so awesome.
>
> Join us!
>
> But what the hell is a nomic?
>
> Here's how a nomic goes down: yadda yadda...
>
>  ---*---
>
> As for the Uni Director/Herald, we could just grant both titles to the
> Herald and if it works, keep it,, possibly just merge it back, if not,
> change from there.
>
> I'd prefer to actually try both options live, since it doesn't seem
> particularly dangerous to do so. It's just pretty mundane tracking and
> coordination.
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Josh T]

I support academic themeing as I think it would be an interesting change of
pace. Bonus fact: 蘭亭社 makes reference to a famous literati gathering which
had influenced Eastern art for centuries.

天火狐

On 25 May 2017 at 16:00, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> The Herald traditionally gives interesting historical facts, I just didn't
> because I just wanted to get a report out there.
>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:47 PM, grok (caleb vines)
>>  wrote:
>> > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need
>> to
>> >> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go
>> along
>> >> with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through
>> donations
>> >> with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
>> >
>> >
>> > Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does
>> have a
>> > ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that
>> University
>> > Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player or
>> person,
>> > while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with years of
>> > experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great
>> shift to
>> > distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of "levels" of
>> > experience required for certain offices.
>> I disagree. The Herald is already basically a historian, in charge of
>> keeping track of Agoran history through titles, theises, and degrees.
>> I don't see why a new office in needed for this.
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

The Herald traditionally gives interesting historical facts, I just didn't
because I just wanted to get a report out there.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:47 PM, grok (caleb vines)
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
> >> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go
> along
> >> with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through
> donations
> >> with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
> >
> >
> > Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does have
> a
> > ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that
> University
> > Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player or person,
> > while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with years of
> > experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great shift
> to
> > distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of "levels" of
> > experience required for certain offices.
> I disagree. The Herald is already basically a historian, in charge of
> keeping track of Agoran history through titles, theises, and degrees.
> I don't see why a new office in needed for this.
>
> -Aris
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:47 PM, grok (caleb vines)
 wrote:
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
>>
>> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
>> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go along
>> with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through donations
>> with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
>
>
> Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does have a
> ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that University
> Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player or person,
> while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with years of
> experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great shift to
> distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of "levels" of
> experience required for certain offices.
I disagree. The Herald is already basically a historian, in charge of
keeping track of Agoran history through titles, theises, and degrees.
I don't see why a new office in needed for this.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I am currently working on a major thesis to analyze Agoran historiography
and history, which could be interesting.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM, grok (caleb vines) 
wrote:

> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
>> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go
>> along with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through
>> donations with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
>>
>
> Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does have a
> ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that
> University Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player
> or person, while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with
> years of experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great
> shift to distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of
> "levels" of experience required for certain offices.
>
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
>> On 05/25/2017 02:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>
>> You could also make a real trust with an organization, which could even
>> issue its own stamps as a reward.
>>
>
> Beat me to that suggestion. Dang, I wanted to look smart.
>
> If the org could issue stamps, the education system could become an
> alternate Economic win condition. And no matter who uses the University
> stamps, the theses and degree papers would help consolidate some of the old
> and near-lost history of Agora that we've been worried about lately. Seems
> like a win-win to me.
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[grok (caleb vines)]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
> add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go
> along with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through
> donations with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
>

Your efforts as Herald are appreciated, but the Herald already does have a
ton of responsibilities and you wear a lot of hats now. Plus that
University Director role would also be well-kept by a long-tenured Player
or person, while the Herald role doesn't necessarily need someone with
years of experience or deep deep CFJ knowledge. I think it would be a great
shift to distribute those responsibilities so we maintain a kind of
"levels" of experience required for certain offices.


On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 05/25/2017 02:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>
> You could also make a real trust with an organization, which could even
> issue its own stamps as a reward.
>

Beat me to that suggestion. Dang, I wanted to look smart.

If the org could issue stamps, the education system could become an
alternate Economic win condition. And no matter who uses the University
stamps, the theses and degree papers would help consolidate some of the old
and near-lost history of Agora that we've been worried about lately. Seems
like a win-win to me.

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

If we wanted to dive all in, I would be all for theming this in an academic
manner and putting more of an emphasis on scholarship and degrees, I just
don't want to do it half way.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> > Rule 
> > University Director:
>
> You know, while I think the emerging economy is great and don't want to
> distract from
> it, it's been a while since we've had a theme, and the economy is sort of
> generic as
> a theme.
>
> An elaborated Grants/Departments/scholarship theme is one we've never
> tried, I think.
>
> Maybe to the extent of replacing the political power system; we've been
> doing Prime
> Minsters and the like *forever*.  We've done - hmm - economic Oligarchs,
> Kings/Revolutions,
> successions, and Papal hierarchies.  But not academic ones.  To prevent
> takeovers, we've
> defined longstanding players as Senators and other classifications, but
> we've never granted
> Tenure.
>
> (of course, this would be done while taking care to promote actual
> scholarship work, and
> not make essays, theses, etc. subject to gamesmanship).
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> Rule 
> University Director:

You know, while I think the emerging economy is great and don't want to 
distract from
it, it's been a while since we've had a theme, and the economy is sort of 
generic as
a theme.

An elaborated Grants/Departments/scholarship theme is one we've never tried, I 
think.

Maybe to the extent of replacing the political power system; we've been doing 
Prime 
Minsters and the like *forever*.  We've done - hmm - economic Oligarchs, 
Kings/Revolutions, 
successions, and Papal hierarchies.  But not academic ones.  To prevent 
takeovers, we've
defined longstanding players as Senators and other classifications, but we've 
never granted
Tenure.

(of course, this would be done while taking care to promote actual scholarship 
work, and
not make essays, theses, etc. subject to gamesmanship).

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like that idea, but at the moment I don't understand the Organization
system well enough, so if someone else could write up the charter that
would be great, but if not I am happy to figure it out.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 05/25/2017 02:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>
> As to the funding, we could set this up through donations with a
> pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.
>
>
> You could also make a real trust with an organization, which could even
> issue its own stamps as a reward.
>

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Nic Evans]

On 05/25/2017 02:37 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
As to the funding, we could set this up through donations with a 
pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.




You could also make a real trust with an organization, which could even 
issue its own stamps as a reward.

Re: DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I am already trying to do this some with the Herald and I see no need to
add a new office, so I would be happy to take this up informally to go
along with the Herald. As to the funding, we could set this up through
donations with a pseudo-trust set up with a pledge.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> AKA: Foster home for deviant topics so that the CFJ system can flow more
> smoothly for practical purposes.
>
> Also, a way to better keep our theses treasures. I'd like to improve the
> state of our Agoran Library! It's a pity that its been a bit neglected and
> I'd like to fix that.
>
> In light of recent events and how CFJs can reasonably be considered
> improper grounds to discuss certain topics, and in the spirit of further
> progressing the development of the library of Agoran Wisdom, I suggest
> "Thesis Bounties" of a sort (along better thesis keeping and creation), to
> provide a proper home for these foster issues, while at the same time
> expanding our library.
>
> Turning a problem into profit!
>
> (Also I apologize for social faux passes I might've done, I understand a
> bit better what most people use CFJs for now. I just, if I may use a rude
> comparison, got a happy crotch explosion the size of Hiroshima when I saw
> the Ambiguity CFJ and have been blinded by intellectual lust since.)
>
> I also request to be laid off Judging as I'd like to dedicate my efforts
> towards writing and nurturing a better system for these activities instead
> of hijacking CFJs.
>
> Onto the Protosal:
>
>   *
>
> Rule 
> University Director:
>
> The University Director is an Office; its holder is responsible for
> maintaining the Agoran Library, as well as mentor potential theses-writers
> and coordinate the thesis creation and assessment process.
>
> The University Director has (certain amount of funding from Agora) to
> promote activities which may further the achievements and wisdom of Agora,
> such as the creation of theses according to points of interest that they
> track and post in their Monthly Report (example, certain CFJs. A thesis
> would be able to better answer and process those CFJs instead of the
> judicial system.)
>
>   *
>
> I remember there being posted some rework ideas to the education system,
> perhaps this can help to those endeavors.
>

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like the second ribbon change, but believe Red should be left as is
because it can be hard to craft a well-written fix.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Quazie  wrote:

> Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 3
> {{{
>   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
> following text
>   {{{
>   Some proposals have minimal consequences, and thus should cost a
>   minimal amount to pend, these proposals are known as Trivial
> Proposals.
>
>   A player may pend a Trivial Proposal without Objection, by paying 1
> Shiny to Agora.
>   If an Objection occurs, this 1 paid Shiny may be used to as a
> partial payment towards
>   the cost of pending the proposal.
>   }}}
>
>   Update rule 2438
>   Replacing the paragraphs
>   {{{
>   Red (R): When a proposal is adopted and changes at least one
>   rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.
>
>   Orange (O): When a proposal is adopted via an Agoran Decision on
>   which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
>   Ribbon.
>   }}}
>   with
>   {{{
>   Red (R): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted and changes at least
> one
>   rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.
>
>   Orange (O): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted via an Agoran
> Decision on
>   which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
>   Ribbon.
>   }}}
> }}}
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM Quazie  wrote:
>
>> Ah-ha!  Thank you for the switch free wording.
>>
>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM Aris Merchant > gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Quazie  wrote:
>>> > Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
>>> > {{{
>>> >   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
>>> > following text
>>> >   {{{
>>> >   Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>>> > proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
>>> > "standard" (default).
>>> >
>>> >   When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
>>> > "trivial" without objection.
>>> >
>>> >   If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
>>> > submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to
>>> "trivial"
>>> >
>>> >   A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
>>> > flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
>>> >   }}}
>>> > }}}
>>> >
>>> > Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?
>>>
>>> I'm suggesting that you should make it something like "a player may
>>> pend a proposal as trivial without objection, by paying 1 Shiny to
>>> Agora". I don't like having an extra switch sitting around that I have
>>> to keep track of, especially if it was required to be on my report.
>>> Doing it without a switch really simplifies the record keeping.
>>>
>>> -Aris
>>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Sequential Numbering

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like just reenacting the old one as it allows us to further test
reenactments.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> >> I create the proposal “Sequential Numbering” by Gaelan, AI 1: <
> >>   Create the rule “Sequential Numbering,” power 1: {
> >>
> >> When the Rulekeepor adds a new rule to the ruleset, e SHALL
> give it an ID number one higher than the highest ever assigned.
> >>
> >>   }
> >>
> >> >
> >
> > Since ID numbers are used in a few places in the Rules like Proposals
> (but
> > not for CFJs! I don't remember removing those...), it might be good to
> > bring back that definition.  Removing it was a conscious experiment to
> see
> > what things could be defined by precedent, that's one that people have
> asked
> > for a few times so maybe it's worth bringing back.  Below is a very
> heavy-
> > weight version from a past ruleset (version grabbed at random, may be
> > better versions), maybe we don't need the full machinery but it's food
> for
> > thought.
> >
> > (The "name" part is interesting, it means the formal name of proposals
> was
> > different from its title, back when we used to regulate names a bit
> more...)
> >
> >
> > Rule 2161/3 (Power=2)
> > ID Numbers
> >
> >If a rule defines a type of entity as having ID numbers, then:
> >
> >(a) Whenever an instance of that type does not have an ID
> >number, the player held responsible by that rule SHALL
> >assign an ID number to it by announcement as soon as
> >possible.
> >
> >(b) Such an assignment is INVALID unless the number is a natural
> >number (expressed as a decimal literal with at most 14
> >digits) distinct from any ID number, and greater than any
> >orderly ID number, previously assigned to an entity of that
> >type.  The player SHALL select the smallest number possible,
> >unless e reasonably believes that selecting any smaller
> >number might be invalid or confusing.
> >
> >(c) Each ID number is either orderly (default) or chaotic.  Upon
> >a judicial finding that the assignment of an ID number was
> >ILLEGAL, the ID number becomes chaotic.
> >
> >(d) Once assigned, an ID number cannot be changed.
> >
> >(e) If an office is responsible for assigning ID numbers, then
> >that officer's report includes the greatest orderly ID
> >number, and a list of all chaotic ID numbers, previously
> >assigned to the type of entity.
> >
> >(f) If an instance of that type has an ID number, then its name
> >is the combination of its type and ID number.  Otherwise, it
> >has no name.
>
> I like the old one better, as it avoids the problem of someone
> assigning rule 10 and then having to count from there. Why don't
> we just reenact the old one?
>
> -Aris
>

DIS: Proto: Agoran Research Funding/Grants/Scholarship/other term

[CuddleBeam]

AKA: Foster home for deviant topics so that the CFJ system can flow more
smoothly for practical purposes.

Also, a way to better keep our theses treasures. I'd like to improve the
state of our Agoran Library! It's a pity that its been a bit neglected and
I'd like to fix that.

In light of recent events and how CFJs can reasonably be considered
improper grounds to discuss certain topics, and in the spirit of further
progressing the development of the library of Agoran Wisdom, I suggest
"Thesis Bounties" of a sort (along better thesis keeping and creation), to
provide a proper home for these foster issues, while at the same time
expanding our library.

Turning a problem into profit!

(Also I apologize for social faux passes I might've done, I understand a
bit better what most people use CFJs for now. I just, if I may use a rude
comparison, got a happy crotch explosion the size of Hiroshima when I saw
the Ambiguity CFJ and have been blinded by intellectual lust since.)

I also request to be laid off Judging as I'd like to dedicate my efforts
towards writing and nurturing a better system for these activities instead
of hijacking CFJs.

Onto the Protosal:

  *

Rule 
University Director:

The University Director is an Office; its holder is responsible for
maintaining the Agoran Library, as well as mentor potential theses-writers
and coordinate the thesis creation and assessment process.

The University Director has (certain amount of funding from Agora) to
promote activities which may further the achievements and wisdom of Agora,
such as the creation of theses according to points of interest that they
track and post in their Monthly Report (example, certain CFJs. A thesis
would be able to better answer and process those CFJs instead of the
judicial system.)

  *

I remember there being posted some rework ideas to the education system,
perhaps this can help to those endeavors.

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I have some thoughts for revamping it and I could throw something together,
if others share there ideas on what would make it helpful.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:53 +, Quazie wrote:
> > > I still think some thing along the lines of: "A judge may recuse emself
> > > from a case, at which point they become unassigned from said case.
> When a
> > > judge recuses emself, or is late to judge a CFJ and eir cade had been
> > > reassigned, they become ineligible to be assigned as a judge for a
> week"
> >
> > If a judge times out from a case without an obvious explanation as to
> > why, I remove them from the list (although they can go back on the list
> > by announcement).
> >
> > This is basically the old "standing court" system of assigning judges
> > (although the numbers I'm using in my system are slightly different
> > from the old system, in that the number of CFJs per judge can get
> > slightly more out of sync, the same basic principles still apply).
>
> The informal method of the last few years worked well-enough at low
> traffic,
> but given the high volume of the last month, we may need an overall
> CFJ process rewrite/formalization to smooth things out, I think several
> issues are cropping up.
>
> (list:  more flexibile voluntary recusals, assignment swapping, non-player
> judges, processed-based DISMISSALS).
>
> There was nothing *wrong* with the old standing court system, and it had
> it's interesting gaming aspects (e.g. in scams, waiting until the rotation
> brought up someone favorable).  It was just a lot of machinery when there
> were just a few of us and the pace was slow.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Quazie]

Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 3
{{{
  Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
following text
  {{{
  Some proposals have minimal consequences, and thus should cost a
  minimal amount to pend, these proposals are known as Trivial
Proposals.

  A player may pend a Trivial Proposal without Objection, by paying 1
Shiny to Agora.
  If an Objection occurs, this 1 paid Shiny may be used to as a partial
payment towards
  the cost of pending the proposal.
  }}}

  Update rule 2438
  Replacing the paragraphs
  {{{
  Red (R): When a proposal is adopted and changes at least one
  rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.

  Orange (O): When a proposal is adopted via an Agoran Decision on
  which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
  Ribbon.
  }}}
  with
  {{{
  Red (R): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted and changes at least
one
  rule with Power >= 3, its proposer earns a Red Ribbon.

  Orange (O): When a non-trivial proposal is adopted via an Agoran
Decision on
  which no valid votes were AGAINST, its proposer earns an Orange
  Ribbon.
  }}}
}}}

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM Quazie  wrote:

> Ah-ha!  Thank you for the switch free wording.
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM Aris Merchant <
> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Quazie  wrote:
>> > Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
>> > {{{
>> >   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
>> > following text
>> >   {{{
>> >   Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>> > proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
>> > "standard" (default).
>> >
>> >   When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
>> > "trivial" without objection.
>> >
>> >   If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
>> > submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to
>> "trivial"
>> >
>> >   A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
>> > flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
>> >   }}}
>> > }}}
>> >
>> > Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?
>>
>> I'm suggesting that you should make it something like "a player may
>> pend a proposal as trivial without objection, by paying 1 Shiny to
>> Agora". I don't like having an extra switch sitting around that I have
>> to keep track of, especially if it was required to be on my report.
>> Doing it without a switch really simplifies the record keeping.
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Quazie]

Ah-ha!  Thank you for the switch free wording.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> > Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
> > {{{
> >   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
> > following text
> >   {{{
> >   Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> > proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
> > "standard" (default).
> >
> >   When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
> > "trivial" without objection.
> >
> >   If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
> > submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to
> "trivial"
> >
> >   A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
> > flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
> >   }}}
> > }}}
> >
> > Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?
>
> I'm suggesting that you should make it something like "a player may
> pend a proposal as trivial without objection, by paying 1 Shiny to
> Agora". I don't like having an extra switch sitting around that I have
> to keep track of, especially if it was required to be on my report.
> Doing it without a switch really simplifies the record keeping.
>
> -Aris
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Gaelan Steele]

Fair enough.
> On May 25, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote: 
>> That format looks fine, although it would be nice if you listed the rule 
>> number to apply the implication to. 
>> (Is that the citations?)
> 
> Would putting a symbol next to a rule in Citations be sufficient and not-too 
> hard to scrape (to keep things compact
> for humans).  e.g.
> 
> CITATIONS
> R101/23(*), R234/42, CFJ 4566
> 
> with the understanding that the (*) might not always be there, not all 
> implications map to a specific rule.
> 
> 
> 



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Sequential Numbering

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
>> I create the proposal “Sequential Numbering” by Gaelan, AI 1: <
>>   Create the rule “Sequential Numbering,” power 1: {
>>
>> When the Rulekeepor adds a new rule to the ruleset, e SHALL give 
>> it an ID number one higher than the highest ever assigned.
>>
>>   }
>>
>> >
>
> Since ID numbers are used in a few places in the Rules like Proposals (but
> not for CFJs! I don't remember removing those...), it might be good to
> bring back that definition.  Removing it was a conscious experiment to see
> what things could be defined by precedent, that's one that people have asked
> for a few times so maybe it's worth bringing back.  Below is a very heavy-
> weight version from a past ruleset (version grabbed at random, may be
> better versions), maybe we don't need the full machinery but it's food for
> thought.
>
> (The "name" part is interesting, it means the formal name of proposals was
> different from its title, back when we used to regulate names a bit more...)
>
>
> Rule 2161/3 (Power=2)
> ID Numbers
>
>If a rule defines a type of entity as having ID numbers, then:
>
>(a) Whenever an instance of that type does not have an ID
>number, the player held responsible by that rule SHALL
>assign an ID number to it by announcement as soon as
>possible.
>
>(b) Such an assignment is INVALID unless the number is a natural
>number (expressed as a decimal literal with at most 14
>digits) distinct from any ID number, and greater than any
>orderly ID number, previously assigned to an entity of that
>type.  The player SHALL select the smallest number possible,
>unless e reasonably believes that selecting any smaller
>number might be invalid or confusing.
>
>(c) Each ID number is either orderly (default) or chaotic.  Upon
>a judicial finding that the assignment of an ID number was
>ILLEGAL, the ID number becomes chaotic.
>
>(d) Once assigned, an ID number cannot be changed.
>
>(e) If an office is responsible for assigning ID numbers, then
>that officer's report includes the greatest orderly ID
>number, and a list of all chaotic ID numbers, previously
>assigned to the type of entity.
>
>(f) If an instance of that type has an ID number, then its name
>is the combination of its type and ID number.  Otherwise, it
>has no name.

I like the old one better, as it avoids the problem of someone
assigning rule 10 and then having to count from there. Why don't
we just reenact the old one?

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote: 
> That format looks fine, although it would be nice if you listed the rule 
> number to apply the implication to. 
> (Is that the citations?)

Would putting a symbol next to a rule in Citations be sufficient and not-too 
hard to scrape (to keep things compact
for humans).  e.g.

CITATIONS
 R101/23(*), R234/42, CFJ 4566

with the understanding that the (*) might not always be there, not all 
implications map to a specific rule.

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
> {{{
>   Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
> following text
>   {{{
>   Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
> "standard" (default).
>
>   When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
> "trivial" without objection.
>
>   If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
> submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to "trivial"
>
>   A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
> flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
>   }}}
> }}}
>
> Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?

I'm suggesting that you should make it something like "a player may
pend a proposal as trivial without objection, by paying 1 Shiny to
Agora". I don't like having an extra switch sitting around that I have
to keep track of, especially if it was required to be on my report.
Doing it without a switch really simplifies the record keeping.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 3489 Judged TRUE by Aris

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> So - if this is true, then I believe none of us have ever been paid, as the
> payday rule states 'Agora pays' and Agora can't perform an action on its
> own.
>
> I'm pretty worried about that...

Not a concern. Part 1 of my opinion says that the problem is that it
has to be allowed by a rule (✓). Part 2 says it has to be rule defined
(✓) and have someone responsible for tracking it (✓). Note also that
we don't even get to the game custom and best interest analysis unless
the rules are unclear, which they're really not.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> How does the current CFJ database work? Is it plain HTML, or generated 
> somehow? If you already have the files used for that, then you could just go 
> with that.

Each case log is stored in an individual file (a single directory):

https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/[N]

I have a script for scraping the case logs and generating the index page.
But it takes too long to do it on-the-fly, so I run it once whenever I update 
the
text files, so the index is fixed during general use.

(Even when I only update the index after I do my duties each time, it takes 
annoyingly long 
to generate the full index, so I don't scan cases<3000, index for those was 
just generated
once).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Quazie]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:00 AM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, grok (caleb vines) wrote:
> > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >   If you look at Rule 217:
> >  Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that
> >  would (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process
> to
> >  resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable
> expectation
> >  that the controversy will thereby be resolved;
> >   This does not state that the "formal process" *has* to be a CFJ.
> For example, a
> >   CoE/Response is another formal process.  So it's quite possible
> for a Judge to say
> >   "don't use the courts, or don't use the courts *yet*, do it this
> way instead.
> >   As long as the method the judge recommends offers a reasonable
> expectation of
> >   resolution.
> >
> >   I'm saying this just as an idea - it's not one we've used
> generally, but it's an
> >   interesting concept from real world courts that we might think
> about.
> >
> >
> > That's kind of how I view the CoE/Response and CFJ systems anyways. I
> view CoEs as the initial claim
> > that there is a rule being broken. The ability to respond allows the
> defendant to present arguments
> > directly to the accuser, and both players an have opportunity to
> "settle" and withdraw eir claim (the
> > defendant's claim to perform an action, the accuser's claim that the
> action is invalid or illegal).
> > If the conflict isn't resolved through CoE, then the CFJ system serves
> as a way to assign
> > a mediator to make a unbiased (or less biased) decision with oversight
> from the majority of Agorans.
> >
> > But I'm still learning, so maybe I'm off base. Who knows? Certainly not
> me.
>
> Not off-base at all!  I think there's a very long custom around here that
> the Judge is
> expected to do a lot of the work to get to TRUE or FALSE as much as
> possible, including
> digging up evidence, figuring out arguments if the Caller doesn't provide,
> and so forth.
>
> This is contrary to real courts, where Judge's grumpily say to Lawyers
> "I'm dismissing
> this case until you do your homework" all the time.
>
> This is all down to game custom on what we find to be appropriate
> judgements (i.e.
> whether we motion to reconsider them or not).
>
> We could consciously decide to change that custom via discussion or
> precedent, we
> could leave it up to individual judges (in the real world, individual
> judges get
> reputations for being sticklers or not, that would be kind of fun), or we
> could try
> some SHOULD legislation, e.g. "the Caller SHOULD present sufficient
> evidence and
> arguments for a strong consideration, and DISMISS is appropriate if the
> Judge feels
> more homework is needed").
>

I would be down to bring back some of pseudo dismiss options (e.g.):
 "UNINFORMED" - "Insufficient burden is being placed on the judge, please
provide better evidence"
"UNTRUTHY" - Unable to be defined a truth statement, but not necessarily in
a paradoxical way.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Joining the fun

[Martin Rönsch]

I honestly don't remember anymore how i found Agora.
I haven been watching relatively close for about a year now and with all
the stuff happening right now i thought it's a good time to join.

Veggiekeks

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:29 PM, Quazie  wrote:

> How did you find us?
>
> Why are you here?
>
> What the heck is up with all these new players appearing?
>
> I LOVE IT!
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:25 AM Martin Rönsch 
> wrote:
>
>> I register, choosing 'Veggiekeks' as my nickname.
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, grok (caleb vines) wrote:
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>   If you look at Rule 217:
>          Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that
>          would (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process to
>          resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable expectation
>          that the controversy will thereby be resolved;
>   This does not state that the "formal process" *has* to be a CFJ.  For 
> example, a
>   CoE/Response is another formal process.  So it's quite possible for a 
> Judge to say
>   "don't use the courts, or don't use the courts *yet*, do it this way 
> instead.
>   As long as the method the judge recommends offers a reasonable 
> expectation of
>   resolution.
> 
>   I'm saying this just as an idea - it's not one we've used generally, 
> but it's an
>   interesting concept from real world courts that we might think about.
> 
> 
> That's kind of how I view the CoE/Response and CFJ systems anyways. I view 
> CoEs as the initial claim
> that there is a rule being broken. The ability to respond allows the 
> defendant to present arguments
> directly to the accuser, and both players an have opportunity to "settle" and 
> withdraw eir claim (the
> defendant's claim to perform an action, the accuser's claim that the action 
> is invalid or illegal). 
> If the conflict isn't resolved through CoE, then the CFJ system serves as a 
> way to assign
> a mediator to make a unbiased (or less biased) decision with oversight from 
> the majority of Agorans.
> 
> But I'm still learning, so maybe I'm off base. Who knows? Certainly not me.

Not off-base at all!  I think there's a very long custom around here that the 
Judge is
expected to do a lot of the work to get to TRUE or FALSE as much as possible, 
including
digging up evidence, figuring out arguments if the Caller doesn't provide, and 
so forth.

This is contrary to real courts, where Judge's grumpily say to Lawyers "I'm 
dismissing
this case until you do your homework" all the time.

This is all down to game custom on what we find to be appropriate judgements 
(i.e.
whether we motion to reconsider them or not).

We could consciously decide to change that custom via discussion or precedent, 
we 
could leave it up to individual judges (in the real world, individual judges get
reputations for being sticklers or not, that would be kind of fun), or we could 
try
some SHOULD legislation, e.g. "the Caller SHOULD present sufficient evidence and
arguments for a strong consideration, and DISMISS is appropriate if the Judge 
feels
more homework is needed").

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Gaelan Steele]

My bad. Just forgot

Gaelan

> On May 25, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> @Gaelan: I have expressed a desire to not be referred to by my real name. 
> While there is nothing in the rules that prevents you from doing so, I shall 
> glare at you menacingly for ignore my wishes. 
> 
> I have gotten the mailing list to accept 天火狐 as my name as of this message, 
> and if everything goes well it should use that for the name field of the 
> email than pulling directly from gmail, hopefully. 
> 
> 天火狐
> 
>> On 25 May 2017 at 13:20, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
>> This could probably go do DIS, but I’m sending it to BUS just in case.
>> 
>> I would like CFJ’s that focus more on interpreting the rules than abstract 
>> philosophy. Examples:
>> Josh’s ambiguity CFJ - no
>> My pink slip CFJ - yes
>> That “no Player” CFJ - yes. It is not relevant to current gameplay, but it 
>> is still a simple reading of the rules and examination of precedent
>>> On May 25, 2017, at 7:48 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>>> 
 On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:45 +, Quazie wrote:
 Is it reasonable to request to you not be eligible for certain
 judicial subsets?
 
 Could I ask to be ineligible for CFJs about Card based actions for
 example?
 - not that I want this, just asking about the concept.
>>> 
>>> I think that's a reasonable request. Judging some CFJs gives more judge
>>> variety than judging none at all.
>>> 
>>> There do need to be limits in case of abuses (e.g. asking only to judge
>>> about scams by a particular coconspirator), but that can be partially
>>> dealt with by barring, and that sort of bad faith request would be
>>> fairly obvious and thus ignorable.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ais523
>> 
> 

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Gaelan Steele]

How does the current CFJ database work? Is it plain HTML, or generated somehow? 
If you already have the files used for that, then you could just go with that. 

That format looks fine, although it would be nice if you listed the rule number 
to apply the implication to. (Is that the citations?) Alternatively, you could 
generate a YAML file like this:

CFJ :
  judged by: XXX
  judged on: -MM-DD
  IMPLICATIONS: |
(text)
  CITATIONS: |
(text)

This is valid YAML, but if you weren't looking for it you'd never know. 

> On May 25, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
>> I'd love if you could place these annotations somewhere my FLR script can 
>> access. 
>> I'll try and send you a file with the old annotations I parsed out from the 
>> FLR tonight.
> 
> I will; for now I'll put a single index file or page (and may wait until I 
> have
> a few more).  Any suggestions/changes on metadata format? (emphasizing human 
> readability
> but with enough consistency for scripting, so planning to have capitalized 
> subheadings
> as shown below).
> 
> CFJ 
> judged by : date
> IMPLICATIONS
> (text)
> CITATIONS
> (text)
> 
> I'll also probably auto-generate a table version like the current index, if 
> that's
> easier to scrape.
> 
> 
> 

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Quazie wrote:
> CFJ db request: Any way we can add search?  What's your backend look like so 
> someone might be able to help?
> Not being able to search CFJ body text has made it harder to use than some 
> prior CFJ DBs.

I agree.  I wrote a rudimentary search script that's ok, but it's heavy and slow
and I'm concerned about that (because it's just searching through 3000+ text 
files each 
time).

Right now anyone could write their own script that just loops through the text 
files
that are stored in the format for the raw text:
https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/[Case number]

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[grok (caleb vines)]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:

> If you look at Rule 217:
>Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that
>would (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process to
>resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable expectation
>that the controversy will thereby be resolved;
> This does not state that the "formal process" *has* to be a CFJ.  For
> example, a
> CoE/Response is another formal process.  So it's quite possible for a
> Judge to say
> "don't use the courts, or don't use the courts *yet*, do it this way
> instead.
> As long as the method the judge recommends offers a reasonable expectation
> of
> resolution.
>
> I'm saying this just as an idea - it's not one we've used generally, but
> it's an
> interesting concept from real world courts that we might think about.
>
>
That's kind of how I view the CoE/Response and CFJ systems anyways. I view
CoEs as the initial claim that there is a rule being broken. The ability to
respond allows the defendant to present arguments directly to the accuser,
and both players an have opportunity to "settle" and withdraw eir claim
(the defendant's claim to perform an action, the accuser's claim that the
action is invalid or illegal). If the conflict isn't resolved through CoE,
then the CFJ system serves as a way to assign a mediator to make a unbiased
(or less biased) decision with oversight from the majority of Agorans.

But I'm still learning, so maybe I'm off base. Who knows? Certainly not me.


-grok

DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 3489 Judged TRUE by Aris

[Quazie]

So - if this is true, then I believe none of us have ever been paid, as the
payday rule states 'Agora pays' and Agora can't perform an action on its
own.

I'm pretty worried about that...

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:40 AM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

> status: https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/#3489
> (This document is informational only and contains no game actions).
>
> =  CFJ 3489  =
>
>At this time, AAaAA has not paid any Shinies to any player
>whatsoever.
>
> ==
>
> Caller:   o
>
> Judge:Aris
> Judgement:TRUE
>
> ==
>
> History:
>
> Called by o:05 May 2017
> Assigned to Aris:   19 May 2017
> Judged TRUE by Aris:24 May 2017
>
> ==
>
> Caller's Arguments:
>
> The ability of an organization to pay is regulated, as it is enabled
> by a rule. No rule makes a provision for automatic payments by
> Organizations.
>
> ==
>
> Caller's Evidence:
>
> Rule 2483/2 (Power=2)
> Economics
>
>   [???]
>
>   Any organization CAN pay Agora, any player, or any other
>   organization by announcement by a member of said organization,
>   as specified in the charter of said organization, unless it
>   would make the organization's balance negative.
>
> ==
>
> Judge's Arguments:
>
> I concur with the caller's arguments. I'd like to note two things:
>
> 1. The action is regulated and the relevant rule (2483) doesn't allow it to
>occur.
> 2. It would be profoundly against the interests of Agora to allow this
> type of
>action to happen. To the best of my knowledge, we've never game actions
> to
>occur automatically without anyone responsible for tracking them,
> certainly
>not in a player defined way (as opposed to a rule defined way). This
> kind of
>thing would make the Secretary's job a nightmare.
>
> As I have found that organizations cannot perform actions automatically,
> without
> the announcement of one of their members, I judge CFJ 3489 to be TRUE.
>
> ==
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:53 +, Quazie wrote:
> > I still think some thing along the lines of: "A judge may recuse emself
> > from a case, at which point they become unassigned from said case. When a
> > judge recuses emself, or is late to judge a CFJ and eir cade had been
> > reassigned, they become ineligible to be assigned as a judge for a week"
> 
> If a judge times out from a case without an obvious explanation as to
> why, I remove them from the list (although they can go back on the list
> by announcement).
> 
> This is basically the old "standing court" system of assigning judges
> (although the numbers I'm using in my system are slightly different
> from the old system, in that the number of CFJs per judge can get
> slightly more out of sync, the same basic principles still apply).

The informal method of the last few years worked well-enough at low traffic,
but given the high volume of the last month, we may need an overall
CFJ process rewrite/formalization to smooth things out, I think several
issues are cropping up.

(list:  more flexibile voluntary recusals, assignment swapping, non-player
judges, processed-based DISMISSALS).

There was nothing *wrong* with the old standing court system, and it had
it's interesting gaming aspects (e.g. in scams, waiting until the rotation 
brought up someone favorable).  It was just a lot of machinery when there
were just a few of us and the pace was slow.

Re: DIS: Trivial Proposals

[Quazie]

Proposal: "Trivia(l)" AI = 1.1
{{{
  Create a new rule entitled `Trivial Proposals` Power=1.1 with the
following text
  {{{
  Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
"standard" (default).

  When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
"trivial" without objection.

  If a player submits a "Trivial Proposal" that is synonymous with
submitting a proposal, and attempting to flip it's complexity to "trivial"

  A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
  }}}
}}}

Is the 'Trivial Proposal' concept what you're talking about?

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 12:27 AM Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would suggest turning them into one step, which would make it
> significantly easier to track. Other than that, looks good to me!
>
> -Aris
>
> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 11:58 AM Quazie  wrote:
>
>> Aris - As Promotor do you have any issue with this Proposal?  If not I'm
>> gonna make it a proper proposal.
>>
>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:21 PM Quazie  wrote:
>>
>>> Proto: Trivial Proposals
>>>
>>> Create a new rule entitled Trival Proposals AI=1.1 with the following
>>> text
>>> {{{
>>> Complexity is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>>> proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "trivial" or
>>> "standard" (default).
>>>
>>> When a player creates a proposal, they may flip its Complexity to
>>> "trivial" without objection.
>>>
>>> A proposal with a Complexity of "trivial" may have its Imminence
>>> flipped to "pending" by paying agora 1 Shiny.
>>> }}}
>>>
>>> 
>>> Proposals like the flipping of Director to Head in relation to Agencies,
>>> and a few other small bits and pieces i've noticed lately while combing the
>>> rules, aren't really worth 4+ shinies to pend as they are making the
>>> ruleset a better place in small increments, and usually in
>>> non-controversial ways.  This concept used to exist in some form, so I'm
>>> aiming to bring it back in the current economy.
>>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Kerim Aydin]

However, since we judge CFJs "at the time of" the CFJ call, I think it *might* 
be
reasonable to say:  "I DISMISS this CFJ because pending events means the issue 
is
not ripe, or evidence could not be found, or it is not appropriate to resolve 
this
controversy via CFJ.".  As long as it's accompanied with Judge's Arguments 
about how
a later CFJ or other process might be better to resolve the issue.

If you look at Rule 217:
   Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that
   would (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process to
   resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable expectation
   that the controversy will thereby be resolved;
This does not state that the "formal process" *has* to be a CFJ.  For example, a
CoE/Response is another formal process.  So it's quite possible for a Judge to 
say
"don't use the courts, or don't use the courts *yet*, do it this way instead. 
As long as the method the judge recommends offers a reasonable expectation of
resolution.

I'm saying this just as an idea - it's not one we've used generally, but it's an
interesting concept from real world courts that we might think about.

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> I think you misunderstand Agoran CFJs. The reasoning is more important than 
> the ruling. The purpose to judge DISMISS is to indicate that the judgement 
> doesn't answer any gamestate questions. Ideally, and in most such
> recent cases, the text of the judgement still provides guidance on what to do 
> if the case becomes relevant in the future.
> This is also much of how common law courts work. 'Precedent' refers to the 
> reasoning employee by judges more than the specific judgements.
> 
> On May 25, 2017 07:20, "CuddleBeam"  wrote:
>   Sorry, I'm still a trainee-Judge of a sort and I wasn't aware of that 
> tradition, so I'll Support that Motion to Reconsider and do a better job and 
> avoid committing that same error again in the future.
> 
> As for removing myself, I believe I am extremely appropriate for certain 
> flavors of CFJ. I wish there was a way I could be assigned mostly those 
> specifically.
> 
> More notably, that Ambiguity CFJ, which a lot of people didn't want to deal 
> with and play the DISMISS card on it to dodge the issue when there was 
> perfectly valid, (although quibble-worthy) way to deal with it
> properly. Although I find myself to be in a minority to be motivated to deal 
> with such offbeat CFJs, which is why I believed myself to be a great addition 
> to the pool, because more CFJs could be dealt with and not
> DISMISSED whenever it felt uncomfortable or deviant.
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Josh T]

@Gaelan: I have expressed a desire to not be referred to by my real name.
While there is nothing in the rules that prevents you from doing so, I
shall glare at you menacingly for ignore my wishes.

I have gotten the mailing list to accept 天火狐 as my name as of this message,
and if everything goes well it should use that for the name field of the
email than pulling directly from gmail, hopefully.

天火狐

On 25 May 2017 at 13:20, Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> This could probably go do DIS, but I’m sending it to BUS just in case.
>
> I would like CFJ’s that focus more on interpreting the rules than abstract
> philosophy. Examples:
>
>- Josh’s ambiguity CFJ - no
>- My pink slip CFJ - yes
>- That “no Player” CFJ - yes. It is not relevant to current gameplay,
>but it is still a simple reading of the rules and examination of precedent
>
> On May 25, 2017, at 7:48 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:45 +, Quazie wrote:
>
> Is it reasonable to request to you not be eligible for certain
> judicial subsets?
>
> Could I ask to be ineligible for CFJs about Card based actions for
> example?
> - not that I want this, just asking about the concept.
>
>
> I think that's a reasonable request. Judging some CFJs gives more judge
> variety than judging none at all.
>
> There do need to be limits in case of abuses (e.g. asking only to judge
> about scams by a particular coconspirator), but that can be partially
> dealt with by barring, and that sort of bad faith request would be
> fairly obvious and thus ignorable.
>
> --
> ais523
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Recusal Proto

[caleb vines]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Quazie  wrote:

> Proposal: "Recuse me princess" AI=1
> {{{
>   Create a new rule entitied 'Recusal' Power = 1 with the following text
>   {{{
> A judge may recuse emself from a CFJ they are assigned to.
>
> When a judge recuses emself, the CFJ remains open, and becomes
> unassigned.
>

> A judge SHOULD suggest another judge for the CFJ to make the Arbitor's
> job easier.
>

Should this clause indicate that the SHOULD clause applies only to the
judge that is recusing emself? For example, "A judge recusing emself using
this rule SHOULD suggest another judge for the CFJ ey are recusing emself
from, to make the Arbitor's job easier"


>
> When a player recuses emself, e becomes ineligible to be assigned as a
> judge to CFJs for a week.
>   }}}
> }}}
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Quazie]

CFJ db request: Any way we can add search?  What's your backend look like
so someone might be able to help?  Not being able to search CFJ body text
has made it harder to use than some prior CFJ DBs.

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:24 AM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> > I'd love if you could place these annotations somewhere my FLR script
> can access.
> > I'll try and send you a file with the old annotations I parsed out from
> the FLR tonight.
>
> I will; for now I'll put a single index file or page (and may wait until I
> have
> a few more).  Any suggestions/changes on metadata format? (emphasizing
> human readability
> but with enough consistency for scripting, so planning to have capitalized
> subheadings
> as shown below).
>
> CFJ 
>  judged by : date
> IMPLICATIONS
> (text)
> CITATIONS
> (text)
>
> I'll also probably auto-generate a table version like the current index,
> if that's
> easier to scrape.
>
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Sequential Numbering

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> I create the proposal “Sequential Numbering” by Gaelan, AI 1: <
>   Create the rule “Sequential Numbering,” power 1: {
> 
> When the Rulekeepor adds a new rule to the ruleset, e SHALL give 
> it an ID number one higher than the highest ever assigned.
> 
>   }
> 
> >

Since ID numbers are used in a few places in the Rules like Proposals (but
not for CFJs! I don't remember removing those...), it might be good to
bring back that definition.  Removing it was a conscious experiment to see
what things could be defined by precedent, that's one that people have asked
for a few times so maybe it's worth bringing back.  Below is a very heavy-
weight version from a past ruleset (version grabbed at random, may be
better versions), maybe we don't need the full machinery but it's food for
thought.

(The "name" part is interesting, it means the formal name of proposals was
different from its title, back when we used to regulate names a bit more...)


Rule 2161/3 (Power=2)
ID Numbers

   If a rule defines a type of entity as having ID numbers, then:

   (a) Whenever an instance of that type does not have an ID
   number, the player held responsible by that rule SHALL
   assign an ID number to it by announcement as soon as
   possible.

   (b) Such an assignment is INVALID unless the number is a natural
   number (expressed as a decimal literal with at most 14
   digits) distinct from any ID number, and greater than any
   orderly ID number, previously assigned to an entity of that
   type.  The player SHALL select the smallest number possible,
   unless e reasonably believes that selecting any smaller
   number might be invalid or confusing.

   (c) Each ID number is either orderly (default) or chaotic.  Upon
   a judicial finding that the assignment of an ID number was
   ILLEGAL, the ID number becomes chaotic.

   (d) Once assigned, an ID number cannot be changed.

   (e) If an office is responsible for assigning ID numbers, then
   that officer's report includes the greatest orderly ID
   number, and a list of all chaotic ID numbers, previously
   assigned to the type of entity.

   (f) If an instance of that type has an ID number, then its name
   is the combination of its type and ID number.  Otherwise, it
   has no name.

DIS: Re: BUS: Joining the fun

[Quazie]

How did you find us?

Why are you here?

What the heck is up with all these new players appearing?

I LOVE IT!

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:25 AM Martin Rönsch 
wrote:

> I register, choosing 'Veggiekeks' as my nickname.
>

DIS: Recusal Proto

[Quazie]

Proposal: "Recuse me princess" AI=1
{{{
  Create a new rule entitied 'Recusal' Power = 1 with the following text
  {{{
A judge may recuse emself from a CFJ they are assigned to.

When a judge recuses emself, the CFJ remains open, and becomes
unassigned.

A judge SHOULD suggest another judge for the CFJ to make the Arbitor's
job easier.

When a player recuses emself, e becomes ineligible to be assigned as a
judge to CFJs for a week.
  }}}
}}}

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> I'd love if you could place these annotations somewhere my FLR script can 
> access. 
> I'll try and send you a file with the old annotations I parsed out from the 
> FLR tonight.

I will; for now I'll put a single index file or page (and may wait until I have
a few more).  Any suggestions/changes on metadata format? (emphasizing human 
readability
but with enough consistency for scripting, so planning to have capitalized 
subheadings
as shown below).

CFJ 
 judged by : date
IMPLICATIONS
(text)
CITATIONS
(text)

I'll also probably auto-generate a table version like the current index, if 
that's
easier to scrape.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I disagree with the citation of CFJ 3469, I explicitly found that they could 
> not be held by non-persons, 
> but if they were awarded to persons then they exist and must be tracked. The 
> rest look fine to me and I like the
> idea of keeping this on the case record. Now that I see what these should 
> look like, I might give you a hand on
> some earlier cases.

Thanks for the feedback, I agree with your correction.  And help definitely 
appreciated; I was hoping 
this batch would show the general format (I'll collect any submitted, might 
wait until I have a 
whole bunch before inputting them to the archive).

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[caleb vines]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM, CuddleBeam 
 wrote:

> @ais523: Super. Thank you! I'll try to make a sufficiently eloquent but also 
> concise and easy-to-use definition of what kind of cases I find myself more 
> suitable for, but it's definitely the more philosophical kind, because I will 
> go above and beyond to give it a better answer than just "it's irrelevant to 
> gameplay".
>
>
> (Like goddamn, ambiguity and concerns of language and meaning are PRECISELY a 
> big reason why we have CFJs in the first place to get clarity, I believe. Why 
> wouldn't "ambiguity" itself be extremely relevant! It's a cornerstone in this 
> nomic! It's the soil we're all standing on! Aaaah!)
>
>
Ambiguity and language are a big reason why we have CFJs. They're also
specifically given judicial precedence in a number of CFJs in the
past--975, 1439, 1460, and recent CFJs 3499 and 3500.

The soil we stand on is not untilled; there are 20 years worth of other
players' work that give us the foundation to answer these seemingly obtuse
philosophical questions quickly. Does that mean we don't have as many hard
philosophical questions to answer? Sure. But it also means that the
philosophical questions we DO get to answer are much more challenging and
rewarding.


@Nic Evans: Yes. I'm still a rookie, so all I ask for is patience as I
attempt to make a better result.
>
>
> I find the use of the term "Agoran" a bit curious though. Even if I do make 
> CFJs in a way that is perceived to be incorrect, I am (part of) Agora now 
> too. So that would, while perceived to be deviant, now contribute to what 
> makes things actually "Agoran".
>
>
> In fact, someone absolutely psychotic but with good faith could join and 
> honestly submit/judge CFJs as cookie recipes, and now part of Agora is 
> entirely seriously considering CFJs to be cookie recipes (as seriously as you 
> may consider that CFJs should be done in the usual way that real life law 
> does it). And in a dystropian case, plenty of that kind of mentally ill 
> people could join, and then, what would be Agoran, would be to have CFJ be 
> cookie recipes.
>
>
That's why we have the appeal system. Agora and nomics in general advance
based on the will of consensus, even in the CFJ framework. There may always
be a "part" of Agora that seeks to interpret the Ruleset in the most obtuse
way possible, but that won't become precedent unless there is consensus
about those obtuse interpretations. Agora also has the Red Card
specifically for when those events occur. That's part of why Referee is an
office; so an established player with the best for the game in mind can
prevent mass vote manipulation and bad faith actions that would not treat
Agora Right Good.

Then again, if your dystropian all decided to become cookie recipe psychos,
I could hook you up with my favorites...


On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Quazie  wrote:

> Well bad judgments can be overturned - so the cookie recepies likely
> wouldn't stand
>
> Unless:
>
> I CFJ on the following statement:
>
> 'The judge assigned to this CFJ will be kind enough to include eir
> favorite cookie recipe in eir judgment.'
>

Right on cue. I request to be assigned this CFJ, and I will withdraw that
request if Cuddlebeam wishes to be assigned this CFJ. (this post is too
informal for a public forum and thus a legitimate pledge, so consider this
a casual promise.)


-grok

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 16:58 +, Quazie wrote:
> Well bad judgments can be overturned - so the cookie recepies likely
> wouldn't stand
> 
> Unless:
> 
> I CFJ on the following statement:
> 
> 'The judge assigned to this CFJ will be kind enough to include eir
> favorite cookie recipe in eir judgment.'

Is this the sort of CFJ CuddleBeam wants? E's slightly ahead of other
players on CFJ assignments atm, so if I assign this one to em, e wouldn
't get another for a while. So it's worth verifying that before I
assign it.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[CuddleBeam]

@ais523: Super. Thank you! I'll try to make a sufficiently eloquent
but also concise and easy-to-use definition of what kind of cases I
find myself more suitable for, but it's definitely the more
philosophical kind, because I will go above and beyond to give it a
better answer than just "it's irrelevant to gameplay".


(Like goddamn, ambiguity and concerns of language and meaning are
PRECISELY a big reason why we have CFJs in the first place to get
clarity, I believe. Why wouldn't "ambiguity" itself be extremely
relevant! It's a cornerstone in this nomic! It's the soil we're all
standing on! Aaaah!)


@Nic Evans: Yes. I'm still a rookie, so all I ask for is patience as I
attempt to make a better result.


I find the use of the term "Agoran" a bit curious though. Even if I do
make CFJs in a way that is perceived to be incorrect, I am (part of)
Agora now too. So that would, while perceived to be deviant, now
contribute to what makes things actually "Agoran".


In fact, someone absolutely psychotic but with good faith could join
and honestly submit/judge CFJs as cookie recipes, and now part of
Agora is entirely seriously considering CFJs to be cookie recipes (as
seriously as you may consider that CFJs should be done in the usual
way that real life law does it). And in a dystropian case, plenty of
that kind of mentally ill people could join, and then, what would be
Agoran, would be to have CFJ be cookie recipes.


However I do agree with that the standard you mention is a Good Idea.

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:53 +, Quazie wrote:
> I still think some thing along the lines of: "A judge may recuse emself
> from a case, at which point they become unassigned from said case. When a
> judge recuses emself, or is late to judge a CFJ and eir cade had been
> reassigned, they become ineligible to be assigned as a judge for a week"

If a judge times out from a case without an obvious explanation as to
why, I remove them from the list (although they can go back on the list
by announcement).

This is basically the old "standing court" system of assigning judges
(although the numbers I'm using in my system are slightly different
from the old system, in that the number of CFJs per judge can get
slightly more out of sync, the same basic principles still apply).

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Quazie]

I still think some thing along the lines of: "A judge may recuse emself
from a case, at which point they become unassigned from said case. When a
judge recuses emself, or is late to judge a CFJ and eir cade had been
reassigned, they become ineligible to be assigned as a judge for a week"
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 07:49 Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> Idea: "offer" CFJs instead of assigning them. Have an Agency that lets us
> accept an offered CFJ, at which point it actually assigns.
>
> > On May 25, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:20 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
> >> As for removing myself, I believe I am extremely appropriate for certain
> >> flavors of CFJ. I wish there was a way I could be assigned mostly those
> >> specifically.
> > If there's a particular sort of CFJ you'd like to focus on, you can let
> > me know, and I can try to bias the CFJ selection towards that. (The
> > rules currently require me to balance CFJ judge selection over time,
> > but with few judges having specific preferences, it's normally possible
> > to give each judge the sort of CFJs they want via changing which CFJs
> > are given to the judges who have no preference.)
> >
> > It'd help if you could give a reasonably clear and precise definition
> > of the CFJs you want, though, so that I can know whether to assign CFJs
> > to you.
> >
> > --
> > ais523
> > Arbitor
>

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Gaelan Steele]

Idea: "offer" CFJs instead of assigning them. Have an Agency that lets us 
accept an offered CFJ, at which point it actually assigns. 

> On May 25, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:20 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> As for removing myself, I believe I am extremely appropriate for certain
>> flavors of CFJ. I wish there was a way I could be assigned mostly those
>> specifically.
> If there's a particular sort of CFJ you'd like to focus on, you can let
> me know, and I can try to bias the CFJ selection towards that. (The
> rules currently require me to balance CFJ judge selection over time,
> but with few judges having specific preferences, it's normally possible
> to give each judge the sort of CFJs they want via changing which CFJs
> are given to the judges who have no preference.)
> 
> It'd help if you could give a reasonably clear and precise definition
> of the CFJs you want, though, so that I can know whether to assign CFJs
> to you.
> 
> -- 
> ais523
> Arbitor

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:45 +, Quazie wrote:
> Is it reasonable to request to you not be eligible for certain
> judicial subsets?
> 
> Could I ask to be ineligible for CFJs about Card based actions for
> example?
> - not that I want this, just asking about the concept.

I think that's a reasonable request. Judging some CFJs gives more judge
variety than judging none at all.

There do need to be limits in case of abuses (e.g. asking only to judge
about scams by a particular coconspirator), but that can be partially
dealt with by barring, and that sort of bad faith request would be
fairly obvious and thus ignorable.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Quazie]

Is it reasonable to request to you not be eligible for certain judicial
subsets?

Could I ask to be ineligible for CFJs about Card based actions for example?
- not that I want this, just asking about the concept.
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 07:42 Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Thu, 2017-05-25 at 14:20 +0200, CuddleBeam wrote:
> > As for removing myself, I believe I am extremely appropriate for certain
> > flavors of CFJ. I wish there was a way I could be assigned mostly those
> > specifically.
> If there's a particular sort of CFJ you'd like to focus on, you can let
> me know, and I can try to bias the CFJ selection towards that. (The
> rules currently require me to balance CFJ judge selection over time,
> but with few judges having specific preferences, it's normally possible
> to give each judge the sort of CFJs they want via changing which CFJs
> are given to the judges who have no preference.)
>
> It'd help if you could give a reasonably clear and precise definition
> of the CFJs you want, though, so that I can know whether to assign CFJs
> to you.
>
> --
> ais523
> Arbitor
>

DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Nicholas Evans]

I think you misunderstand Agoran CFJs. The reasoning is more important than
the ruling. The purpose to judge DISMISS is to indicate that the judgement
doesn't answer any gamestate questions. Ideally, and in most such recent
cases, the text of the judgement still provides guidance on what to do if
the case becomes relevant in the future.

This is also much of how common law courts work. 'Precedent' refers to the
reasoning employee by judges more than the specific judgements.

On May 25, 2017 07:20, "CuddleBeam"  wrote:

> Sorry, I'm still a trainee-Judge of a sort and I wasn't aware of that
> tradition, so I'll Support that Motion to Reconsider and do a better job
> and avoid committing that same error again in the future.
>
> As for removing myself, I believe I am extremely appropriate for certain
> flavors of CFJ. I wish there was a way I could be assigned mostly those
> specifically.
>
> More notably, that Ambiguity CFJ, which a lot of people didn't want to
> deal with and play the DISMISS card on it to dodge the issue when there was
> perfectly valid, (although quibble-worthy) way to deal with it properly.
> Although I find myself to be in a minority to be motivated to deal with
> such offbeat CFJs, which is why I believed myself to be a great addition to
> the pool, because more CFJs could be dealt with and not DISMISSED whenever
> it felt uncomfortable or deviant.
>

DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3509 Judgement (Dismissed, insufficient information)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

DISMISS should never be used because you are uncomfortable. It is
completely fine, we all make mistakes.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> I support the motion to reconsider.
>
> Gaelan
>
> On May 25, 2017, at 4:37 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I hereby file a Motion to Reconsider with 2 Support.
>
> We actually do expect a judge to do further "scholarly" (if you like)
> research into the rules to make their decisions with. If you are unwilling
> to do such, you should remove yourself from the list of judges.
>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:29 AM, CuddleBeam 
> wrote:
>
>> The following between diamond symbols is my Judgement on CFJ 3509 for the
>> statement “Any player may take the office of Rulekeepor with 2 support.”
>>
>>   ♦
>>
>> DISMISSED. I lack enough evidence unfortunately. I wish I did know myself
>> though.
>>
>>
>>
>> Casual reading of the rules doesn’t suggest to me anything that would
>> support your claim (I see a way to resign, to kick them off the seat
>> without 2 objections, and elections, but nothing more), although there
>> could entirely be a more obscure method via the which it definitely could
>> be formally achieved, e.g. a scam. I just don’t see it nor have the
>> explicit knowledge granted by evidence to know it. Judging FALSE would mean
>> that “Any player may NOT take the office of Rulekeepor with 2 support” is
>> TRUE, but I don’t have any conclusive evidence for that either. I could
>> attempt to dig deeper, but that would tread into the territory of needing
>> more than a “reasonable amount of time” to grant judgement. So dismissed.
>>
>>   ♦
>>
>>
>>
>> I apologize if the Judgement is disappointing but my level of
>> understanding of the rules is casual and non-scholarly and I don't believe
>> I am required or should be expected to have further knowledge than that,
>> because my ability to judge is based on my ability to assess and interpret
>> evidence, not my individual prior knowledge. (That or perhaps we should
>> require Judges to have achieved a certain Agoran Education Degree or have
>> achieved scam-based awards, would I be incorrect in my assumption.)
>>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Sequential Numbering

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

This seems nice and uncontroversial.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> I create the proposal “Sequential Numbering” by Gaelan, AI 1: <
>
> Create the rule “Sequential Numbering,” power 1: {
>
> When the Rulekeepor adds a new rule to the ruleset, e SHALL give it an ID
> number one higher than the highest ever assigned.
>
> }
>
> >
>
> [My plan of breaking this rule caused several people to try and push me
> off their lawns (fair! I’m younger than Agora), so we might as well
> formalize it.]
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Where should annotations be placed for maximal accessibility?


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> I'd love if you could place these annotations somewhere my FLR script can
> access. I'll try and send you a file with the old annotations I parsed out
> from the FLR tonight.
>
> Gaelan
>
> > On May 25, 2017, at 2:06 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > [Comments on the below sections welcome.  If this is liked, I invite
> judges to
> > include implications & citations although I reserve the right to
> edit/comment.
> > Question:  should implications/citations be included in the case logs?]
> >
> >
> > RECENT JUDGEMENTS of INTEREST
> >
> > CFJs 3463-3464, judged by Gaelan
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > A report listing properties of a person twice in a conflicting way
> (even
> > listing by different nicknames) is inconsistent and does not ratify.
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3465, judged by nichdel
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > Alexis indeed became Dictator, and is now Princess of Agora.
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3566, judged by nichdel
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > The internal state of an organization is part of the gamestate, and
> can
> > be ratified.
> >  CITATIONS
> > R2202/6, R1551/18, CFJ 1420
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3468, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > "With Agoran Support" is a reasonable synonym for "With Agoran
> Consent".
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3469, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > A non-person can hold a Patent Title, if it was awarded when the
> entity
> > was a person.
> >  CITATIONS
> > R649/37
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3471-3472, judged by G.
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > Actions announcements posted in a non-English language may be
> successful,
> > by only if (1) an online translator is readily available, (2) there
> is sufficient
> > context to determine the type of action without the translator, and
> (3) the
> > literal English translation results in a clear action specification.
> >  CITATIONS
> > CFJ 1460
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3486, judged by Aris
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > Except for conditional votes, conditional actions must be resolvable
> based
> > on the gamestate at the time the action was announced.
> >  CITATIONS
> > R478/33(recommend annotation), R2127/9
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3487, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > The Arbitor's message "Judge: (player)" in reference to an open case
> is
> > clearly the act of assigning a judge.
> >  CITATIONS
> > CFJ 3481
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3488, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > When a person deregisters while judge of an open case, e remains
> judge:
> > e CAN still assign a judgement, and must do so in a timely fashion.
> >  CITATIONS
> > R591/42(recommend annotation), R991/17
> >
> >
> > CFJ 3489, judged by Aris
> >  IMPLICATIONS
> > An organization cannot take actions automatically.
> >  CITATIONS
> > R2483/2
> >
> >
> >
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Gaelan Steele]

I'd love if you could place these annotations somewhere my FLR script can 
access. I'll try and send you a file with the old annotations I parsed out from 
the FLR tonight. 

Gaelan

> On May 25, 2017, at 2:06 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> [Comments on the below sections welcome.  If this is liked, I invite judges to
> include implications & citations although I reserve the right to edit/comment.
> Question:  should implications/citations be included in the case logs?]
> 
> 
> RECENT JUDGEMENTS of INTEREST
> 
> CFJs 3463-3464, judged by Gaelan
>  IMPLICATIONS
> A report listing properties of a person twice in a conflicting way (even
> listing by different nicknames) is inconsistent and does not ratify.
> 
> 
> CFJ 3465, judged by nichdel
>  IMPLICATIONS
> Alexis indeed became Dictator, and is now Princess of Agora.
> 
> 
> CFJ 3566, judged by nichdel
>  IMPLICATIONS
> The internal state of an organization is part of the gamestate, and can
> be ratified.
>  CITATIONS
> R2202/6, R1551/18, CFJ 1420  
> 
> 
> CFJ 3468, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  IMPLICATIONS
> "With Agoran Support" is a reasonable synonym for "With Agoran Consent".
> 
> 
> CFJ 3469, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  IMPLICATIONS
> A non-person can hold a Patent Title, if it was awarded when the entity
> was a person.
>  CITATIONS
> R649/37
> 
> 
> CFJ 3471-3472, judged by G.
>  IMPLICATIONS
> Actions announcements posted in a non-English language may be successful, 
> by only if (1) an online translator is readily available, (2) there is 
> sufficient
> context to determine the type of action without the translator, and (3) 
> the 
> literal English translation results in a clear action specification.
>  CITATIONS
> CFJ 1460
> 
> 
> CFJ 3486, judged by Aris
>  IMPLICATIONS
> Except for conditional votes, conditional actions must be resolvable based
> on the gamestate at the time the action was announced.
>  CITATIONS
> R478/33(recommend annotation), R2127/9
> 
> 
> CFJ 3487, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  IMPLICATIONS
> The Arbitor's message "Judge: (player)" in reference to an open case is
> clearly the act of assigning a judge.
>  CITATIONS
> CFJ 3481
> 
> 
> CFJ 3488, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  IMPLICATIONS
> When a person deregisters while judge of an open case, e remains judge:
> e CAN still assign a judgement, and must do so in a timely fashion.
>  CITATIONS
> R591/42(recommend annotation), R991/17
> 
> 
> CFJ 3489, judged by Aris
>  IMPLICATIONS
> An organization cannot take actions automatically.
>  CITATIONS
> R2483/2
> 
> 
> 

DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I disagree with the citation of CFJ 3469, I explicitly found that they
could not be held by non-persons, but if they were awarded to persons then
they exist and must be tracked. The rest look fine to me and I like the
idea of keeping this on the case record. Now that I see what these should
look like, I might give you a hand on some earlier cases.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> [Comments on the below sections welcome.  If this is liked, I invite
> judges to
>  include implications & citations although I reserve the right to
> edit/comment.
>  Question:  should implications/citations be included in the case logs?]
>
>
> RECENT JUDGEMENTS of INTEREST
>
> CFJs 3463-3464, judged by Gaelan
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  A report listing properties of a person twice in a conflicting way
> (even
>  listing by different nicknames) is inconsistent and does not ratify.
>
>
> CFJ 3465, judged by nichdel
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Alexis indeed became Dictator, and is now Princess of Agora.
>
>
> CFJ 3566, judged by nichdel
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  The internal state of an organization is part of the gamestate, and
> can
>  be ratified.
>   CITATIONS
>  R2202/6, R1551/18, CFJ 1420
>
>
> CFJ 3468, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  "With Agoran Support" is a reasonable synonym for "With Agoran
> Consent".
>
>
> CFJ 3469, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  A non-person can hold a Patent Title, if it was awarded when the
> entity
>  was a person.
>   CITATIONS
>  R649/37
>
>
> CFJ 3471-3472, judged by G.
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Actions announcements posted in a non-English language may be
> successful,
>  by only if (1) an online translator is readily available, (2) there
> is sufficient
>  context to determine the type of action without the translator, and
> (3) the
>  literal English translation results in a clear action specification.
>   CITATIONS
>  CFJ 1460
>
>
> CFJ 3486, judged by Aris
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Except for conditional votes, conditional actions must be resolvable
> based
>  on the gamestate at the time the action was announced.
>   CITATIONS
>  R478/33(recommend annotation), R2127/9
>
>
> CFJ 3487, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  The Arbitor's message "Judge: (player)" in reference to an open case
> is
>  clearly the act of assigning a judge.
>   CITATIONS
>  CFJ 3481
>
>
> CFJ 3488, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  When a person deregisters while judge of an open case, e remains
> judge:
>  e CAN still assign a judgement, and must do so in a timely fashion.
>   CITATIONS
>  R591/42(recommend annotation), R991/17
>
>
> CFJ 3489, judged by Aris
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  An organization cannot take actions automatically.
>   CITATIONS
>  R2483/2
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Rule Numbering

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

G., o, and Aris have all shared my thoughts on the matter, if you do make
that change, then I will consider becoming rulekeepor.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:51 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> > How attached is everyone to the current rule numbering scheme? I’ve
> > started applying proposals on git branches as they are distributed (so
> > I can just merge them when resolution rolls around), but I realized that
> > this system will not work if I have to assign sequential ID numbers, as
> > I will not know which proposals will succeed at the time of distribution.
> > Would people mind having holes in the rule numbers due to failed
> proposals?
> >
> > Alternatively, because I don’t believe the ruleset specifies that ID
> numbers
> > must be integers, I might use start numbering new rules as “7903.1” for
> the
> > first rule created by Proposal 7903.
>
> After 20-some years?  Very very very very very very attached.
>
> Especially if it is breaking one of the oldest Agoran tradition and
> recordkeeping devices for the convenience of a particular technology.
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Rule Numbering

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I love quaternions in my maths, but for this, the current system must be
mantained.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
>
> How attached is everyone to the current rule numbering scheme? I’ve
>>
>
> Huh, that really is quite unspecified nowadays... you could even break the
> ordering without violating any rule.
>
> Clearly you should use quaternions.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

Re: DIS: An essential diff between Agora and Github

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

GitHub is definitely not the authoritative edition, the authoritative
edition is the version sent to the list, the GitHub version is completely
informal.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:44 AM, Quazie  wrote:

> So far I have never seen a github artifact proport to be authoritive, so
> this seems to be a peculiar warning
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 23:36 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> Agoran proposals (and instruments, generally) take effect in the order
>> the clauses of the propsal are written. This is not practical to represent
>> in a Git diff, and, as far as I know, there’s no workaround. Be cautious of
>> treating Github artefacts, such as diffs and pull requests, as
>> authoritative.
>>
>> -o
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: I won't judge CFJ 3509

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I would like to take up this case, if no one else wants it.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> Stating an intention to break a rule isn’t against the rules. No
> infraction, no card.
>
> -o
>
> > On May 25, 2017, at 12:34 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> >
> > It would also be nice if the Referee had enough power to call a delay of
> game, and refuse the judge emself (but id like that to some how be possible
> without writing that explicit action into the ruleset).
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I would be interested.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Quazie  wrote:

>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 19:39 Alex Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2017-05-24 at 19:08 +, Quazie wrote:
>> > Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>> >
>> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
>> > organization 1 Shiny.
>>
>> An Organization isn't a contract, it can't do a SHALL. If you want to
>> punish someone, you do so via increasing eir budget.
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
> Fair.
>
> At the beginning of each game each member is expected to pay 1 Shiny to
> the organization.  If they dont eir budget will be increased by 5 and they
> will be ineligible to earn a point.
>
> I'm aware the organization isn't near valid yet, I'm simply seeing if
> anyone would want to play.
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] Court Gazette

[Josh T]

> Question:  should implications/citations be included in the case logs?

I think it would be a good idea to facilitate looking for things quickly.

天火狐

On 25 May 2017 at 05:06, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> [Comments on the below sections welcome.  If this is liked, I invite
> judges to
>  include implications & citations although I reserve the right to
> edit/comment.
>  Question:  should implications/citations be included in the case logs?]
>
>
> RECENT JUDGEMENTS of INTEREST
>
> CFJs 3463-3464, judged by Gaelan
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  A report listing properties of a person twice in a conflicting way
> (even
>  listing by different nicknames) is inconsistent and does not ratify.
>
>
> CFJ 3465, judged by nichdel
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Alexis indeed became Dictator, and is now Princess of Agora.
>
>
> CFJ 3566, judged by nichdel
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  The internal state of an organization is part of the gamestate, and
> can
>  be ratified.
>   CITATIONS
>  R2202/6, R1551/18, CFJ 1420
>
>
> CFJ 3468, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  "With Agoran Support" is a reasonable synonym for "With Agoran
> Consent".
>
>
> CFJ 3469, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  A non-person can hold a Patent Title, if it was awarded when the
> entity
>  was a person.
>   CITATIONS
>  R649/37
>
>
> CFJ 3471-3472, judged by G.
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Actions announcements posted in a non-English language may be
> successful,
>  by only if (1) an online translator is readily available, (2) there
> is sufficient
>  context to determine the type of action without the translator, and
> (3) the
>  literal English translation results in a clear action specification.
>   CITATIONS
>  CFJ 1460
>
>
> CFJ 3486, judged by Aris
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  Except for conditional votes, conditional actions must be resolvable
> based
>  on the gamestate at the time the action was announced.
>   CITATIONS
>  R478/33(recommend annotation), R2127/9
>
>
> CFJ 3487, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  The Arbitor's message "Judge: (player)" in reference to an open case
> is
>  clearly the act of assigning a judge.
>   CITATIONS
>  CFJ 3481
>
>
> CFJ 3488, judged by Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  When a person deregisters while judge of an open case, e remains
> judge:
>  e CAN still assign a judgement, and must do so in a timely fashion.
>   CITATIONS
>  R591/42(recommend annotation), R991/17
>
>
> CFJ 3489, judged by Aris
>   IMPLICATIONS
>  An organization cannot take actions automatically.
>   CITATIONS
>  R2483/2
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Rule Numbering

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 24 May 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:51 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> >> How attached is everyone to the current rule numbering scheme? I’ve
> >> started applying proposals on git branches as they are distributed (so
> >> I can just merge them when resolution rolls around), but I realized that
> >> this system will not work if I have to assign sequential ID numbers, as
> >> I will not know which proposals will succeed at the time of distribution.
> >> Would people mind having holes in the rule numbers due to failed proposals?
> >>
> >> Alternatively, because I don’t believe the ruleset specifies that ID 
> >> numbers
> >> must be integers, I might use start numbering new rules as “7903.1” for the
> >> first rule created by Proposal 7903.
> >
> > After 20-some years?  Very very very very very very attached.
> >
> > Especially if it is breaking one of the oldest Agoran tradition and
> > recordkeeping devices for the convenience of a particular technology.
> 
> Endore G. Thank you for saying this with the force I was unable to.

Thinking about it a little further, I want to give a reason other than a
reflex "we've always done it that way (back to Suberian Nomic), get off my 
lawn."

In the last few months, we've had several comments to the effect that our
history (patent titles, cases, etc.) is our most important asset.

To reconstruct missing bits of history (like CFJs or rules), it's important 
to know what's missing, so knowing that Rule IDs (and version numbers) are
unique, sequential integers is important to filling in any gaps[1].

Actual organization of the text - there's plenty of room for experiement
there (I wish I'd manage to get branching-tree ideas working myself
last year), so organizational experiments like your latest, I like a lot.

[1 speaking of which, did anyone grab a copy of omd's rules archives before
they disappeared?  I think I may have the YAML somewhere if I look].

Re: DIS: Rule Numbering

[Aris Merchant]

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:51 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
>> How attached is everyone to the current rule numbering scheme? I’ve
>> started applying proposals on git branches as they are distributed (so
>> I can just merge them when resolution rolls around), but I realized that
>> this system will not work if I have to assign sequential ID numbers, as
>> I will not know which proposals will succeed at the time of distribution.
>> Would people mind having holes in the rule numbers due to failed proposals?
>>
>> Alternatively, because I don’t believe the ruleset specifies that ID numbers
>> must be integers, I might use start numbering new rules as “7903.1” for the
>> first rule created by Proposal 7903.
>
> After 20-some years?  Very very very very very very attached.
>
> Especially if it is breaking one of the oldest Agoran tradition and
> recordkeeping devices for the convenience of a particular technology.

Endore G. Thank you for saying this with the force I was unable to.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Rule Numbering

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 24 May 2017, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> How attached is everyone to the current rule numbering scheme? I’ve 
> started applying proposals on git branches as they are distributed (so 
> I can just merge them when resolution rolls around), but I realized that 
> this system will not work if I have to assign sequential ID numbers, as 
> I will not know which proposals will succeed at the time of distribution. 
> Would people mind having holes in the rule numbers due to failed proposals?
> 
> Alternatively, because I don’t believe the ruleset specifies that ID numbers 
> must be integers, I might use start numbering new rules as “7903.1” for the 
> first rule created by Proposal 7903.

After 20-some years?  Very very very very very very attached.

Especially if it is breaking one of the oldest Agoran tradition and
recordkeeping devices for the convenience of a particular technology.

Re: DIS: An essential diff between Agora and Github

[Quazie]

So far I have never seen a github artifact proport to be authoritive, so
this seems to be a peculiar warning
On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 23:36 Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> Agoran proposals (and instruments, generally) take effect in the order the
> clauses of the propsal are written. This is not practical to represent in a
> Git diff, and, as far as I know, there’s no workaround. Be cautious of
> treating Github artefacts, such as diffs and pull requests, as
> authoritative.
>
> -o
>
>