Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> I do think we need to tighten up what it means to pay, and to 
> spend, Shinies. How’s this for a sketch:
> 
> * Where the rules define an amount of an asset to be paid to a 
> recipient, any attempt to pay an amount other than the full 
> amount due is INEFFECTIVE.

I'd take a "nuke it from orbit" approach at this point, and 
excessively codify this into a formal Method (might be word-
smithed to be shortened, but keep all the ideas in the following:

If the rules specify that an action is performed by paying
or spending to do it, or that a non-negative currency-
denominated cost, price, or fee is associated with performing
it, then the action is performed by
paying the exact specified amount in a single
transaction for the announced purpose of performing that
action.  If the rules do not specify another recipient for
the funds, the funds must be paid to Agora.
If the currency transaction fails then the action
fails.  If the action fails for other reasons, then the
currency transaction fails.  If the currency of payment is
not specified, the default is shinies.

Does that cover everything?

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
> thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
> proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
> apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
> micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
> out as soon as humanly possible.

I can work with that. The Auctions v4 draft I just submitted has an 
auction-specific fix for micropayments.

I do think we need to tighten up what it means to pay, and to spend, Shinies. 
How’s this for a sketch:

* Where the rules define an amount of an asset to be paid to a recipient, any 
attempt to pay an amount other than the full amount due is INEFFECTIVE.

* To spend an amount of a currency is to transfer that amount to Agora.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[ATMunn]

ah, sorry.

On 11/9/2017 10:09 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



That's what I was suggesting that o take the opportunity to do...

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:

If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions
proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P

On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
card, ty, lol.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:




On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold
Fast",

I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase
of
the Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few
people
have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
uncharacteristic decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing
it
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a
hypothetical
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much
else,
thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net
effect
of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a
scam
that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
substantial side effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam
Fix”
contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so
that
that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise
ferreted
that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power
1 of
that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit
to
point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the
subject,
and I won’t hold it against you.

-o






--
  From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Kerim Aydin]

That's what I was suggesting that o take the opportunity to do...

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions
> proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P
> 
> On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
> > thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
> > proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
> > apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
> > micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
> > out as soon as humanly possible.
> > 
> > On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> > > Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > > > Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> > > > card, ty, lol.
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold
> > > > > > Fast",
> > > > > I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase
> > > > > of
> > > > > the Estate of Erewhon.
> > > > > 
> > > > > […]
> > > > > 
> > > > > I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few
> > > > > people
> > > > > have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
> > > > > uncharacteristic decision:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing
> > > > > it
> > > > > somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a
> > > > > hypothetical
> > > > > curio.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
> > > > > ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much
> > > > > else,
> > > > > thankfully.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net
> > > > > effect
> > > > > of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a
> > > > > scam
> > > > > that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
> > > > > substantial side effects.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
> > > > > operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam
> > > > > Fix”
> > > > > contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so
> > > > > that
> > > > > that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise
> > > > > ferreted
> > > > > that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power
> > > > > 1 of
> > > > > that contract.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit
> > > > > to
> > > > > point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the
> > > > > subject,
> > > > > and I won’t hold it against you.
> > > > > 
> > > > > -o
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > >  From V.J. Rada
> > > 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[ATMunn]

If more people would give me suggestions on what to change in my auctions 
proposal, then I could get it out a lot sooner. :P

On 11/9/2017 9:39 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:



Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
card, ty, lol.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:




On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",

I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
the Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
uncharacteristic decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
substantial side effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
and I won’t hold it against you.

-o






--
 From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Kerim Aydin]

Well, I did about the same as Herald when I re-posted the victory election
thing.  Traditionally, the proof of a scammer's good intent is an actual
proposal to fix the problem.  I think an apology is appropriate, where the
apology included a fix.  I'm not sure if the fix is stopping all these dumb
micropayments, versus just among sure to help get that auction proposal
out as soon as humanly possible.

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.
> 
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> > card, ty, lol.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
> >> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
> >> the Estate of Erewhon.
> >>
> >> […]
> >>
> >> I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
> >> have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
> >> uncharacteristic decision:
> >>
> >> 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
> >> somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
> >> curio.
> >>
> >> 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
> >> ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
> >> thankfully.
> >>
> >> 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
> >> of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
> >> that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
> >> substantial side effects.
> >>
> >> I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
> >> operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
> >> contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
> >> that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
> >> that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
> >> that contract.
> >>
> >> I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
> >> point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
> >> and I won’t hold it against you.
> >>
> >> -o
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[VJ Rada]

Alright, G. I'm giving you the opportunity to decide this case.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> Routine finger point to o for collaborating yadda yadda give him green
> card, ty, lol.
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >
>> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
>> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of
>> the Estate of Erewhon.
>>
>> […]
>>
>> I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people
>> have observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply
>> uncharacteristic decision:
>>
>> 1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it
>> somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical
>> curio.
>>
>> 2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The
>> ability to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else,
>> thankfully.
>>
>> 3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect
>> of the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam
>> that either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with
>> substantial side effects.
>>
>> I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to
>> operate (specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix”
>> contract, which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that
>> that would have had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted
>> that single shiny away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of
>> that contract.
>>
>> I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to
>> point a finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject,
>> and I won’t hold it against you.
>>
>> -o
>>
>>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast", I 
> cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1 shiny towards the purchase of the 
> Estate of Erewhon.

[…]

I’m generally pretty reticent to abuse official duties, as a few people have 
observed, so I thought I’d explain myself for this deeply uncharacteristic 
decision:

1. I’m interested in seeing this loophole closed, if it works. Testing it 
somewhat forces us to consider it seriously, rather than as a hypothetical 
curio.

2. If it _does_ work, an Estate may well be an appropriate reward. The ability 
to spend an infinite amount of money can’t be used for much else, thankfully.

3. Whether it works or not, the damage is fairly contained. The net effect of 
the payments made is zero change to anyone’s balances. This isn’t a scam that 
either creates a dictatorship or litters the gamestate with substantial side 
effects.

I did delay distributing one other payment to make the scam easier to operate 
(specifically, the payment V.J Rada made to create the “Scam Fix” contract, 
which remains undistributed), but the scam was set up so that that would have 
had no practical effect as I would have otherwise ferreted that single shiny 
away in the Easy Off contract, as permitted in power 1 of that contract.

I respectfully ask forgiveness for my part in it. If anyone sees fit to point a 
finger over this, I don’t have much further to say on the subject, and I won’t 
hold it against you.

-o



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DIS: Re: BUS: Can we telegraph this any more clearly?

[Aris Merchant]

I favor this case.

-Aris

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:53 AM Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 3:50 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> > As authorized by the contract "Easy Off Scam: Cleaning Your Mold Fast",
> I cause the Head, V.J Rada, to pay Agora 1
>
>
> […]
>
> I call for judgement, paying Agora 1 sh. to do so and barring V.J Rada, on
> the statement "V.J Rada owns the Estate of Erehwon".
>
> Caller's Arguments:
>
> Exhibit 1 contains 1,011 payments to Agora of 1 sh. apiece, substantially
> made by V.J Rada and identified as being payments for the purchase of the
> Estate. V.J Rada was authorized to purchase that Estate, as exhibit 2
> shows, e had recently won an auction.
>
> Shinies are fungible (see exhibits 3 and 4): any two collections of
> shinies with the same number of shinies in them and the same owner are
> fully interchangeable, and are in fact indistinguishable from one another,
> as we lack the means to identify any single shiny with any certainty.
> Similarly, dividing a payment into multiple smaller payments is neither
> permitted nor proscribed by the rules, and after receiving 1,011 shinies,
> Agora is exactly as enriched if those shinies come in a single payment, or
> in multiple payments.
>
> Conversely, however, the 1,011 payments in exhibit 1 are evidently not
> _atomic_. They are, by necessity, interleaved with other actions involving
> the same parties (V.J Rada and Agora). If we are to treat all 1,011
> payments as a unit, in what order does that payment occur with respect to
> the 1,011 payments Agora makes in that message?
>
> Exhibit 5 is the only relevant CFJ I'm aware of. I judged it, and I stand
> by it.
>
> Exhibits:
>
> 1. <
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-November/037043.html
> >
> 2. <
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2017-November/012032.html
> >
> 3. Rule 2483 ("Economics"):
>
> Shinies (singular "shiny", abbreviated "sh.") are an indestructible
> liquid currency, and the official currency of Agora. The Treasuror is the
> recordkeepor for shinies.
>
> 4. Rule 2166 ("Assets"), in part:
>
> A currency is a class of asset defined as such by its backing
> document. Instances of a currency with the same owner are fungible.
>
> 5. 
>
>