Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 19:39, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:36 PM nch via agora-discussion <
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> > On 6/25/20 2:35 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM nch via agora-discussion
> > >  > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> > > > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> > > > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> > > > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.
> > > However,
> > > > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be
> > > incentivized
> > > > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the
> > > current
> > > > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would
> > > also remove
> > > > the need to control Prime Minister.
> > >
> > > Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be
> > > done
> > > in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to
> > > delay this long enough.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes. Part of the fun of scams is that they should be resisted using
> > > any legal game mechanic. If it requires producing an extra win, so be it.
> > >
> > > -Aris
> >
> > How is that different than a scam at that point?
> >
>
> It's a matter of purpose, not of form. The purpose is to block the scam. We
> don't want someone to win because we want a win, we want someone to win
> because we can't think of a better way of blocking your scam. When someone
> starts a scam, everyone will do everything they can to block it. It's
> like... once you start using scam tactics, it becomes fair play to use them
> back against you.
>
> -Aris

This is an attitude I hadn't been aware of.

My goals in Agora are: win; make sure nobody else wins; and other
stuff like having fun. I never thought of preventing scams as an end
in itself. I am not inclined to support a free win for some other
player just to prevent a different set of wins. Maybe I would support
an "everyone wins" free tournament, because me winning with everyone
else is better than me being left out of a win?

- Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 3:33 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business
>  wrote:
>> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
>> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
>> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.
> 3 Agoran Consent is hard but perhaps not impossible.  Currently, my
> Emergency Regulation intent has objections from the 2 scam team
> members, and support from 3 people including me.  If nobody else
> objects, we could pass it with 7 support, so 4 more...

Only the PM can resolve this intent, you'd have to become the PM and 
this isn't a SHALL so you can't deputize for it.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 4:33 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business
>  wrote:
>> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
>> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
>> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.
> 3 Agoran Consent is hard but perhaps not impossible.  Currently, my
> Emergency Regulation intent has objections from the 2 scam team
> members, and support from 3 people including me.  If nobody else
> objects, we could pass it with 7 support, so 4 more...


But how would you get into PM? The only way I can see is deputising to
appoint a speaker, which would require someone to win the game.

-- 
Jason Cobb

DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[omd via agora-discussion]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business
 wrote:
> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.

3 Agoran Consent is hard but perhaps not impossible.  Currently, my
Emergency Regulation intent has objections from the 2 scam team
members, and support from 3 people including me.  If nobody else
objects, we could pass it with 7 support, so 4 more...

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:36 PM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 6/25/20 2:35 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM nch via agora-discussion
> >  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> > > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> > > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> > > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.
> > However,
> > > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be
> > incentivized
> > > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the
> > current
> > > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would
> > also remove
> > > the need to control Prime Minister.
> >
> > Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be
> > done
> > in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to
> > delay this long enough.
> >
> >
> > Yes. Part of the fun of scams is that they should be resisted using
> > any legal game mechanic. If it requires producing an extra win, so be it.
> >
> > -Aris
>
> How is that different than a scam at that point?
>

It's a matter of purpose, not of form. The purpose is to block the scam. We
don't want someone to win because we want a win, we want someone to win
because we can't think of a better way of blocking your scam. When someone
starts a scam, everyone will do everything they can to block it. It's
like... once you start using scam tactics, it becomes fair play to use them
back against you.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 2:35 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM nch via agora-discussion 
>  > wrote:
>
> On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win.
> However,
> > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be
> incentivized
> > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the
> current
> > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would
> also remove
> > the need to control Prime Minister.
>
> Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be
> done
> in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to
> delay this long enough.
>
>
> Yes. Part of the fun of scams is that they should be resisted using 
> any legal game mechanic. If it requires producing an extra win, so be it.
>
> -Aris

How is that different than a scam at that point?

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> > Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> > Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> > Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. However,
> > this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be incentivized
> > to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the current
> > Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would also remove
> > the need to control Prime Minister.
>
> Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be done
> in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to
> delay this long enough.
>

Yes. Part of the fun of scams is that they should be resisted using any
legal game mechanic. If it requires producing an extra win, so be it.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/2020 3:21 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:18 PM ATMunn via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


Quick question - what even is the scam? I just woke up one day to find
out that there were a ton of messages and a few people were performing
weird actions and people said it was a scam. I figured nobody knew how
it worked except the people performing it, but it appears that that
isn't the case.



Someone who is deregistered by exile can reregister immediately and claim a
welcome package. Then can they be deregistered again. Rinse and repeat.
Infinite welcome packages.

The anti-scam team is so far me, Jason, and Trigon. The scam team is nch
and R. Lee (and possibly G., but e's really something of a free agent last
I checked). The proposal I distributed would block the scam, but it can't
be resolved before the scam can be performed unless we can delay the scam.

-Aris



Ah, got it. So there's basically a mini-war between the scam team and 
anti-scam team. Neat.


I would "join" the anti-scam team but I don't think I could be of any 
additional use. But if there's ever something I can do just by being 
another player (e.g. supporting or objecting to an intent or voting a 
certain way on a proposal), I'm happy to assist in that way.


--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary here :)

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 2:18 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
>> It is no secret that we wish to prevent the exile scam from working,
>> granting three players wins and resetting our economy.
> Also, our side has already proposed and supported a way to avoid
> resetting the economy when the win goes through.
>
> --
> nch
> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>
>
Sorry, this isn't true. I mixed it up with another proposal that fixes 
some reset stuff. We're talking about the specifics of such a proposal now.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:18 PM ATMunn via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> Quick question - what even is the scam? I just woke up one day to find
> out that there were a ton of messages and a few people were performing
> weird actions and people said it was a scam. I figured nobody knew how
> it worked except the people performing it, but it appears that that
> isn't the case.
>

Someone who is deregistered by exile can reregister immediately and claim a
welcome package. Then can they be deregistered again. Rinse and repeat.
Infinite welcome packages.

The anti-scam team is so far me, Jason, and Trigon. The scam team is nch
and R. Lee (and possibly G., but e's really something of a free agent last
I checked). The proposal I distributed would block the scam, but it can't
be resolved before the scam can be performed unless we can delay the scam.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 3:15 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
>> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
>> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
>> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. However,
>> this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be incentivized
>> to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the current
>> Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would also remove
>> the need to control Prime Minister.
> Making up a fake win is better than a scam win?


/shrug. It prevents you from messing with the economy and it grants one
fake win rather than three.


> Also this can't be done 
> in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to 
> delay this long enough.
>

I... didn't realize this. Dammit.

-- 
Jason Cobb

DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

Quick question - what even is the scam? I just woke up one day to find 
out that there were a ton of messages and a few people were performing 
weird actions and people said it was a scam. I figured nobody knew how 
it worked except the people performing it, but it appears that that 
isn't the case.


On 6/25/2020 3:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:

It is no secret that we wish to prevent the exile scam from working,
granting three players wins and resetting our economy. All that must be
done in order to do that is to prevent the exile intent from being
resolvable for any amount of time, so that the fix proposal's decision
can be resolved (please vote for it and consider using EVs, it appears
to be failing right now).

There are two potential ways to delay the intent resolution: having the
Speaker object and use of the final paragraph of Rule 2124.

First, the Speaker objection. The Speaker can veto the resolution for 48
hours by objecting to the intent. This could either by done by
convincing the current Speaker (G.) to object or by replacing em with
someone against the scam. We have no specific desire to replace the
Speaker - if e agrees to help stop the scam, we will not replace em.
However, since that, at the moment, appears unlikely, we are forced to
consider replacing em.

To replace G., someone must win the game, and the Prime Minister must
appoint em to Speaker. The latter is the reason for the Motion of No
Confidence - if the office is vacant, a person against the scam can
deputise to appoint the like-minded Speaker (which also grants em voting
strength on the fix proposal). Again, we have no specific desire to make
Prime Minister vacant, and we will not do so if it proves unnecessary
(i.e. if there is a Speaker opposed to the scam).

There are currently the following methods for winning the game:
- free tournament
- birthday tournament
- PM -> emergency regs
- VP win
- Apathy
- PARADOXICAL CFJ
- Ribbons

Some of these are definitely impossible within the necessary timeframe:
PARADOXICAL CFJ (needs to stand for one week) and Ribbons (nobody both
has a black ribbon and is close to having all the ribbons). Some of them
we will not be pursuing: VP Win, Apathy, and the Birthday Tournament.
This leaves a Free Tournament and emergency regulations.

Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. However,
this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be incentivized
to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the current
Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would also remove
the need to control Prime Minister.

Finally, there is another potential way of blocking the intent -
objecting and withdrawing objections from the Blots intent. This would
only work if a recently called CFJ is judged TRUE (i.e. it is found that
with notice actions "depend on objections"). If so, then every player
can veto the exile intent for one day each, which is certainly enough
time to resolve the proposal.



--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary here :)

DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> It is no secret that we wish to prevent the exile scam from working,
> granting three players wins and resetting our economy.

Also, our side has already proposed and supported a way to avoid 
resetting the economy when the win goes through.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

DIS: Re: BUS: Statement from the Opposition

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/25/20 2:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> Free Tournaments require only 2 Agoran consent to initiate, while
> Emergency Regulations require 3, so the easiest option is a Free
> Tournament that automatically grants a certain person the win. However,
> this intent is also vetoable by the Speaker, which would be incentivized
> to do so in order to keep eir post. This means that bribing the current
> Speaker with a free win might be the best option. This would also remove
> the need to control Prime Minister.

Making up a fake win is better than a scam win? Also this can't be done 
in time. The only way you can delay us long enough would allow us to 
delay this long enough.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager