Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
I'll keep working on it. I thought it would be an interesting contest. I'm
glad to see others agree.
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Ed Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ivan Hope wrote:
{The name of this contract is The Corporation. This is a public
contract. Parties to this contract SHALL ensure it fulfills all its
obligations.
Shares of stock (shares, for short) are a currency. Ownership of
shares is restricted to players.
This contract can be amended with the majority consent of all shares,
where a share is considered to consent if its owner consents.}
http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2007-May/006393.html
--
Chester Mealer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ?spam? Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
cdm014 wrote: I'll keep working on it. I thought it would be an interesting contest. I'm glad to see others agree. I think it would be mostly interesting if corporation's dividends depended on something in the gamestate, such as whether proposals made by corporation members passed. Corporation subgames are unlikely to be interesting if the dividends merely happen at random, or on a fixed schedule. -- ais523 winmail.dat
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
Hmm. . . Maybe you should hold off on it? I've been thinking heavily about an entire economic system for Agora, including a stock exchange and a fungible currency, as well as a treasury and salaries. I'll try to write it up soon; right now I'm very tired. When I do, I'll definitely include some of your ideas, and maybe start one of the first Agoran corporations. avpx
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Nick Vanderweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm. . . Maybe you should hold off on it? I've been thinking heavily about an entire economic system for Agora, including a stock exchange and a fungible currency, as well as a treasury and salaries. I'll try to write it up soon; right now I'm very tired. When I do, I'll definitely include some of your ideas, and maybe start one of the first Agoran corporations. It would be the at least the third, by my count. -root
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Jun 19, 2008, at 7:20 PM, Nick Vanderweit wrote: Hmm. . . Maybe you should hold off on it? I've been thinking heavily about an entire economic system for Agora, including a stock exchange and a fungible currency, as well as a treasury and salaries. I'll try to write it up soon; right now I'm very tired. When I do, I'll definitely include some of your ideas, and maybe start one of the first Agoran corporations. Please look up past Agoran currency and economic systems as reference works. Also look up Zombies, asset-holders without executors, and the MASSIVE CURRENCY UPHEAVAL. - Benjamin Schultz KE3OM OscarMeyr
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Ian Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Nick Vanderweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm. . . Maybe you should hold off on it? I've been thinking heavily about an entire economic system for Agora, including a stock exchange and a fungible currency, as well as a treasury and salaries. I'll try to write it up soon; right now I'm very tired. When I do, I'll definitely include some of your ideas, and maybe start one of the first Agoran corporations. It would be the at least the third, by my count. -root Woops. Even so, would it overlap anything in effect *now* if I created an entire currency system for Agora, complete with a stock exchange and treasury? avpx
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Nick Vanderweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Woops. Even so, would it overlap anything in effect *now* if I created an entire currency system for Agora, complete with a stock exchange and treasury? Oh, the Bank of Agora, partnerships, and the current asset system. (Of course, the Bank of Agora is a partnership that uses the current asset system.) But we could use better versions of them all. --Ivan Hope CXXVII
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
So, I'm writing a contract up. Here's what I've done so far (I've not written the Stock Exchange stuff up yet, or corporations, or anything). Agoran Economics 1. The title of this contract is Agoran Economics. 2. Any person may join or leave this contract at any time by announcement. 3. This contract is public. 4. Changes may be made to this contract and on its behalf only by a majority vote of its first-class members. 5. Assets defined in this contract may not be transferred if the sender does not have the required amount of that asset. The Peso 6. The currency defined in this contract is the Agoran Peso (otherwise referred to as simply the Peso). 7. Pesos may be transferred from one person to another by announcement. For a tax rate N (set by the Treasuror) such that 0 = N 1, the recipient shall only receive 1-N times the amount transferred. 8. Pesos may also be transferred from a person to the Treasury or vice versa without tax. 9. Upon a player leaving, his holdings in Pesos are destroyed. 10. There may only be one million Pesos in existence at any given time. The Treasury 11. The Treasury is an entity whose sole purpose is to store Pesos. Its holdings are managed by the Treasuror. 12. The Treasuror may be elected or replaced by a majority vote of the members of this contract. The duties of the Treasuror involve economic stimulation by: a. Setting the tax rate by announcement. b. Setting the rates at which the holdings of the Treasury are distributed by announcement. 13. The Treasuror SHALL publish a weekly report detailing the holdings of all members of this contract. 14. A member to this contract CAN, by announcement, invest any portion of his holdings in the Treasury. These holdings are transferred to the Treasury, and the amount invested is included in the Treasuror's report. 15. Every month, the amount that each person has invested in the Treasury is halved. 15. The Treasuror CAN, by announcement, set the weekly rates at which the Treasury doles out money. These rates include: a. The salary rate, which is the percentage of the Treasury's holdings that is divided up among officers who, in the previous week, completed their reports on time, submitters of proposals that passed, and judges of CFJs that were not appealed. b. The investment rate, the percentage of the Treasury's holdings divided up among investors in the Treasury proportionally to how much they invested relative to other investors. 16. The Treasury's holdings in Pesos consist of the total number of Pesos minus the number of Pesos held by players. Thoughts on what I have so far? I'm going to add a ton more, but I'm wondering if I've forgotten something. How I'm thinking of implementing the Stock Market is this: a person (probably a partnership) can become a corporation by announcement or having it as a clause in the agreement. It then receives 100 shares valued at 0 Pesos. The value of a share of the stock of a corporation is simply the holdings of said corporation in Pesos divided by 100. If doopy and I formed a corporation and each put in 1000 Pesos, then the price per share would be 20 Pesos. We would then sell shares, which would go into the Brokerage, which would then sell them to buyers at the going rate for our stock. Corporations could figure out their voting structure and such, but it seems to me like it would be a good idea for a corporation to use how many shares of stock in that company a person owns to decide his power in decision making, such as the number of votes that a person has being the number of shares he holds. This is beyond the scope of this contract, however, but it's just my idea of how it would work out. Thoughts on this mechanism? I'm not sure if a purely supply-and-demand system would work with so few people, so I thought of this. avpx On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:07 PM, ihope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Nick Vanderweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Woops. Even so, would it overlap anything in effect *now* if I created an entire currency system for Agora, complete with a stock exchange and treasury? Oh, the Bank of Agora, partnerships, and the current asset system. (Of course, the Bank of Agora is a partnership that uses the current asset system.) But we could use better versions of them all. --Ivan Hope CXXVII
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
Yeah I'm beginning to see how far over my head I was. -- Chester Mealer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
avpx wrote: 5. Assets defined in this contract may not be transferred if the sender does not have the required amount of that asset. Redundant with the Assets rule; only the owner of an asset has the general ability to transfer it. 7. Pesos may be transferred from one person to another by announcement. For a tax rate N (set by the Treasuror) such that 0 = N 1, the recipient shall only receive 1-N times the amount transferred. Where does the rest go? 9. Upon a player leaving, his holdings in Pesos are destroyed. Just restrict ownership of pesos to players, and let the Assets rule take care of it.
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Ed Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where does the rest go? The Treasury contains the rest, per the section describing it. 9. Upon a player leaving, his holdings in Pesos are destroyed. Just restrict ownership of pesos to players, and let the Assets rule take care of it. Noted. avpx
DIS: proto Stock Market
another idea, clearly not a proposal yet Agoran Stock Market 1. This contract is known as the Agoran Stock Market. 2. This contract creates a currency known as SMDs which are fungible. 3. This contract creates a currency known as shares which contain a stock symbol. 4. A stock symbol is a string of one to five alphanumeric characters. 5. Shares with the same stock symbol are fungible. 6. Shares with different stock symbols are not fungible. 7. Shares, and SMDs may only be created, destroyed, and echanged, according to the terms of this contract. 8. There shall be five offices, under this contract, known as SEC Members. These offices shall be imposed upon the first five players to join this contract. 9. Any player may join this contract by announcing eir intent to do so. 10. SEC support means a vote in which at least 3 of the SEC members voted FOR the proposal. 11. Any SEC member may change this contract with SEC support. 12. No player who is not holding an office of SEC member may change this contract. 13. The first player to join the SEC also holds the office of SEC President. 14. The SEC President shall vacate the office if e is not able to be a contest master for this contract should it become a contest. 15. Upon 10 players joining this contract the SEC President shall change this contract into a contest with emself as contest master. 16. If the office of SEC President is vacant the set of players who hold the office of SEC member shall elect from emselves a player to be SEC President who is capable of serving as contestmaster. 17. If no SEC member is capable of serving as constestmaster, the player who has been an SEC member the longest SHALL AND MUST vacate eir office. 18. If an office of SEC member is vacant the players who have joined this contract shall elect from emselves a player to that office who is capable of serving as contest master. 19. The SEC President shall serve as record keeper of shares, SMDs, and Companies. 20. A company may be formed by three members of this contract with SEC support by announcing eir intention to form the company, the company name, and the company stock symbol. 21. A company may only have one stock symbol, and may not use a stock symbol already owned by another company. 22. When a company is formed, the SEC President shall destroy a number of SMDs in the possession of each player forming the company equal to the number of SMDs they own multiplied by 0.5. E shall then create in eir possession a number of shares with the stock symbol ofthe company they formed such that the total number of shares with that symbol is 100 and one member owns no more than 1 more than another member (33 + 33 + 34 = 100). The three members who created the company become known as its board of directors. Thereafer the board of directors for the company are the three members who own the most shares. In the event of two or more players owning the same number of shares the player with the first player name in alphabetical order who owns that number of shares with that symbol is deemed to hold more shares. 23. A Board of Directors may request a stock split with SEC support, by announcing eir intention to do so and specifying a multiple of 0.1 between 0 and 2. The SEC President shall then create in the possession of each member to this contract a number of shares equal to X times the multiple specified by the company's board of Directors, where X is the number of shares that have the companies stock symbol which that player already owned. 24. A board of directors may request a distribution of dividents with SEC support by announcing eir intention to do so. The President shall then specify a Random integer between 0 and 100 and shall create in the possession of each member of this contract a number of SMDs equal to X * Y / 100 where Y is the number specified by the President. The SEC President shall specify the random number exactly once per approved request. 25. A player may request a conversion between then SMDs and points with SEC approval by announcing eir intent to convert a certain number of points or a certain number of SMDs. The SEC President shall then destroy that number of points or SMDs and create or award a number of points or SMDs according to the ratio specified in this contract. 26. The ratio of points to SMDs is 2:100. 27. A player may announce a desire to exchange a number of SMDs for shares with a given symbol by posting a message containing eir name the word BUY in capital letters, the symbol they want the shares to have, and the amount of SMDs they are willing to exchange. The player posting the message shall be the recordkeepor of eir own desire to exchange SMDs for shares. 28. A player may announce a desire to exhcnage a number of shares with a given symbol for SMDs by posting a message containing eir name the word SELL in capital letters, the
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
cdm014 wrote: 2. This contract creates a currency known as SMDs which are fungible. What is this an initialism for? which are fungible should be removed; it's a broken version of what Rule 2166 (Assets) already covers (e.g. instances should not be fungible while they have different owners). 3. This contract creates a currency known as shares which contain a stock symbol. 4. A stock symbol is a string of one to five alphanumeric characters. 5. Shares with the same stock symbol are fungible. 6. Shares with different stock symbols are not fungible. This contradicts Rule 2166 more directly. Suggested revision: For each stock symbol, 'symbol shares' is a currency. Also, which alphabet are you using? 8. There shall be five offices, under this contract, known as SEC Members. These offices shall be imposed upon the first five players to join this contract. Contracts can't define offices (Rule 1006), but can define non-office roles/positions. What if someone leaves before all the positions are filled? Suggested revision: When a player joins this contract, if there are less than five SEC members, then e becomes a SEC member. 10. SEC support means a vote in which at least 3 of the SEC members voted FOR the proposal. Do you really intend to use the proposal mechanism? Suggested revision: SEC support means 'with the support of 3 SEC members'. If the number of SEC members changes, does the threshold remain at 3, or do you intend to require a majority? What if the number of SEC members is not at its maximum? 17. If no SEC member is capable of serving as constestmaster, the player who has been an SEC member the longest SHALL AND MUST vacate eir office. Redundant. A common construction is CAN action, and SHALL do so as soon as possible. E shall then create in eir possession a number of shares with the stock symbol ofthe company they formed such that the total number of shares with that symbol is 100 and one member owns no more than 1 more than another member (33 + 33 + 34 = 100). There should be an e.g. in there. In the event of two or more players owning the same number of shares the player with the first player name in alphabetical order who owns that number of shares with that symbol is deemed to hold more shares. Real name? First or last? Nickname? Nicknames are changeable. 23. A Board of Directors may request a stock split with SEC support, by announcing eir intention to do so and specifying a multiple of 0.1 between 0 and 2. Inclusive? The President shall then specify a Random integer between 0 and 100 Ditto.
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
not a proposal but when it is Murphy is Co-Author, anything else I overlooked? Stock Market V 2 Agoran Stock Market 1. This contract is known as the Agoran Stock Market. 2. This contract creates a currency known as Stock Market Dollars or SMDs. 3. A stock symbol is a string of one to five characters each of which is a member of the set of letters in the English alphabet. 4. For each stock symbol, symbol shares is a currency. 5. This contract defines a position called SEC member, when a player joins this contract if there are fewer than five SEC member e becomes a SEC member. 6. SEC support means with the support of a majority of SEC members. 7. A member of this contract may make another member a SEC member with support of a majority of members of this contract. 8. This contract defines the role of SEC President. A SEC member may make another SEC member SEC President with SEC support if and only if the player who would be SEC President is capable of serving as a contestmaster. If a player becomes an SEC member and there is no SEC President e becomes SEC President. 9. There can be only one SEC President at any time. If a player is made SEC president while another is already SEC President, the player who has been SEC President the longest is no longer SEC President. 10. An SEC member may change this contract with SEC support. No player may change this contract otherwise. 11. If the SEC President is incapable of serving as contestmaster e CAN and SHALL vacate the role and positions of SEC President and SEC member. 12. Upon their being 10 members to this contract the SEC President CAN and SHALL turn this contract into a contest. 13. The SEC President shall serve as recordkeeper of stocks, and SMDs. 14. A company may be formed by 3 members of this contract with SEC support by announcing eir intent to do so along with a company name, and a stock symbol which is not claimed by another company. When a company is formed the SEC President CAN and SHALL remove from each member's who formed the company possession a number of SMDs equal to the number of SMDs in eir possession multiplied by 0.5. E shall then create in each of eir possession a number of symbol stocks such that the total number of symbol stocks is 100 and no player who formed the company owns two more than any other player who formed the company (e.g. 33 + 33 + 34 = 100 and 33 = 33, and 34 - 33 = 1 so all conditions would be met). The players who formed the company are designated Director of symbol. 15. Support of symbol means support of all players with the position Director of symbol and is synonymous with symbol support. 16. This contract defines the role of Stock Broker, the stock broker is the RecordKeeper of BUY ORDERS and SELL ORDERS. If a player joins this contract and e does not immediately become the SEC President and there is no Stock Broker, e becomes the Stock Broker. If the Stock Broker becomes the SEC President e vacates the role of Stock Broker and the SEC member who has been an SEC member the longest, excluding the SEC President, becomes the Stock Broker. 17. A Directory of symbol may with symbol support and SEC support may request Distribution of Dividends by announcing eir intention to do so. The SEC President then CAN and SHALL pick a random positive integer between 1 and 100 inclusive and inform all SEC members and all Directors of symbol of the number e picked. E shall then in the possession of each member of this contract create a number of SMDs equal to the number of symbol stocks that member owns multiplied by the number e picked and divided by 100. 18. A Director of symbol may with symbol support and SEC support request a Stock Split by announcing eir intention to do so and a positive real number between 0.1 and 2 inclusive. The SEC President shall then in the possession of each member of this contract create or destroy a number of symbol stocks such that the member now owns X * Y stocks where X is the number e owned before this action and Y is the number specified by the board of directors. 19. When this contract is a contest a player may request conversion of a number of points, not to exceed two, or a number of SMDs. The SEC President shall then in that players possession destroy the requested number of points or SMDs and award or create the required number of points or SMDs such that a player who had points revoked gains SMDs and a player who had SMDs destroyed gains points both according to the ratio defined in this contract. 20. The ratio of points to SMDs is 2:100. 21. A player may with SEC support replace another player as Director of symbol if e owns more symbol stocks than the player e wishes to replace. 22. A player may have a BUY ORDER recorded by the Stock Broker by announcement that e is placing a BUY ORDER. The announcement must contain the number of SMDs e is willing to trade per symbol stock and the number of symbol stocks e wants. 23. A player may have a SELL ORDER recorded by the Stock
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Chester Mealer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: another idea, clearly not a proposal yet Agoran Stock Market 1. This contract is known as the Agoran Stock Market. 2. This contract creates a currency known as SMDs which are fungible. 3. This contract creates a currency known as shares which contain a stock symbol. 4. A stock symbol is a string of one to five alphanumeric characters. 5. Shares with the same stock symbol are fungible. 6. Shares with different stock symbols are not fungible. 7. Shares, and SMDs may only be created, destroyed, and echanged, according to the terms of this contract. 8. There shall be five offices, under this contract, known as SEC Members. These offices shall be imposed upon the first five players to join this contract. 9. Any player may join this contract by announcing eir intent to do so. 10. SEC support means a vote in which at least 3 of the SEC members voted FOR the proposal. 11. Any SEC member may change this contract with SEC support. 12. No player who is not holding an office of SEC member may change this contract. 13. The first player to join the SEC also holds the office of SEC President. 14. The SEC President shall vacate the office if e is not able to be a contest master for this contract should it become a contest. 15. Upon 10 players joining this contract the SEC President shall change this contract into a contest with emself as contest master. 16. If the office of SEC President is vacant the set of players who hold the office of SEC member shall elect from emselves a player to be SEC President who is capable of serving as contestmaster. 17. If no SEC member is capable of serving as constestmaster, the player who has been an SEC member the longest SHALL AND MUST vacate eir office. 18. If an office of SEC member is vacant the players who have joined this contract shall elect from emselves a player to that office who is capable of serving as contest master. 19. The SEC President shall serve as record keeper of shares, SMDs, and Companies. 20. A company may be formed by three members of this contract with SEC support by announcing eir intention to form the company, the company name, and the company stock symbol. 21. A company may only have one stock symbol, and may not use a stock symbol already owned by another company. 22. When a company is formed, the SEC President shall destroy a number of SMDs in the possession of each player forming the company equal to the number of SMDs they own multiplied by 0.5. E shall then create in eir possession a number of shares with the stock symbol ofthe company they formed such that the total number of shares with that symbol is 100 and one member owns no more than 1 more than another member (33 + 33 + 34 = 100). The three members who created the company become known as its board of directors. Thereafer the board of directors for the company are the three members who own the most shares. In the event of two or more players owning the same number of shares the player with the first player name in alphabetical order who owns that number of shares with that symbol is deemed to hold more shares. 23. A Board of Directors may request a stock split with SEC support, by announcing eir intention to do so and specifying a multiple of 0.1 between 0 and 2. The SEC President shall then create in the possession of each member to this contract a number of shares equal to X times the multiple specified by the company's board of Directors, where X is the number of shares that have the companies stock symbol which that player already owned. 24. A board of directors may request a distribution of dividents with SEC support by announcing eir intention to do so. The President shall then specify a Random integer between 0 and 100 and shall create in the possession of each member of this contract a number of SMDs equal to X * Y / 100 where Y is the number specified by the President. The SEC President shall specify the random number exactly once per approved request. 25. A player may request a conversion between then SMDs and points with SEC approval by announcing eir intent to convert a certain number of points or a certain number of SMDs. The SEC President shall then destroy that number of points or SMDs and create or award a number of points or SMDs according to the ratio specified in this contract. 26. The ratio of points to SMDs is 2:100. 27. A player may announce a desire to exchange a number of SMDs for shares with a given symbol by posting a message containing eir name the word BUY in capital letters, the symbol they want the shares to have, and the amount of SMDs they are willing to exchange. The player posting the message shall be the recordkeepor of eir own desire to exchange SMDs for shares. 28. A player may
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
5. This contract defines a position called SEC member, when a player joins this contract if there are fewer than five SEC member e becomes a SEC member. I don't like this part. I'd definitely prefer a system where *everyone* has a say rather than it being a race to become an SEC member. snip 14. A company may be formed by 3 members of this contract with SEC support by announcing eir intent to do so along with a company name, and a stock symbol which is not claimed by another company. When a company is formed the SEC President CAN and SHALL remove from each member's who formed the company possession a number of SMDs equal to the number of SMDs in eir possession multiplied by 0.5. E shall then create in each of eir possession a number of symbol stocks such that the total number of symbol stocks is 100 and no player who formed the company owns two more than any other player who formed the company (e.g. 33 + 33 + 34 = 100 and 33 = 33, and 34 - 33 = 1 so all conditions would be met). The players who formed the company are designated Director of symbol. Why not say it more simply and just state, The SEC President SHALL remove from each founder's possession half of eir SMDs. Also, I don't particularly like this part; instead, there should be some other benefit for putting up more money, like increased initial stock value. I also don't see why it must be that you need exactly three people to form a company, despite this board of directors stuff. It would, IMO, be better if a single person or a group of any number of people could form a company and then decide their own organizational structure for it, rather than dictating this stuff through the contract. In fact, it seems to me like a partnership or other type of contract should be able to become a company by announcement. Really, I don't see the point of any of this except that: 1) You have to invest money to start a company, and 2) You get 100 shares of this company divided evenly (rounding as little as possible) among the founders. Instead, the *company* (a contract, like I suggested) should receive 100 shares and be able to divide them as it pleases. I do like the idea of a stock exchange, but it needs some work. Really, I prefer leaving organization to the companies themselves (through contracts) and then having this only manage the investment part. A member to this contract should be able to invest and receive shares through this contract, but requiring a board of directors for a company seems like it's going too far. I think you should rewrite this contract specifying that a company is a partnership specifying that it is so (though it also would be nice to have companies run by only one person, so think about that as well) and only handle the investment part of it through this contract. Hopefully that would work out nicely. avpx
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:45 PM, Nick Vanderweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do like the idea of a stock exchange, but it needs some work.
Really, I prefer leaving organization to the companies themselves
(through contracts) and then having this only manage the investment
part.
The Bank of Agora was corporation-like. The board of directors
consisted of all Bankers, and the shares of stock were pens. People
with at least 10% of all pens, with one vote per person, was deemed a
good-enough approximation of one vote per pen, which would have
required more complexity. There isn't all that much need for a
separate stock market system; the rules can already do it all.
{The name of this contract is The Corporation. This is a public
contract. Parties to this contract SHALL ensure it fulfills all its
obligations.
Shares of stock (shares, for short) are a currency. Ownership of
shares is restricted to players.
This contract can be amended with the majority consent of all shares,
where a share is considered to consent if its owner consents.}
--Ivan Hope CXXVII
Re: DIS: proto Stock Market
Ivan Hope wrote:
{The name of this contract is The Corporation. This is a public
contract. Parties to this contract SHALL ensure it fulfills all its
obligations.
Shares of stock (shares, for short) are a currency. Ownership of
shares is restricted to players.
This contract can be amended with the majority consent of all shares,
where a share is considered to consent if its owner consents.}
http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2007-May/006393.html
