Re: Fw: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
This is interesting.
R1885, power 2, says "the Registrar CAN put that zombie ... up for
auction.". R2549 is power 1, so I think 1885 wins. It doesn't exactly say
"initiate" an auction, but in the context of the rules I think it must mean
that.
I can think of two ways to interpret the situation. (a) R2549 gives the
method for initiating an auction (by announcement) and then attempts to
forbid it in this case with a CANNOT, but that CANNOT is overruled by
R1885. or (b) R2549 gives a method (by announcement) that is limited by
that CANNOT. R1885 says I CAN initiate the auction but does not give me a
method, so I actually can't, practically speaking.
On Sun., Jun. 16, 2019, 07:14 Timon Walshe-Grey, wrote:
> Forwarding to DIS - you sent this to me privately, presumably by mistake.
>
> In answer to the question, that seems plausible to me.
>
> -twg
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Sunday, June 16, 2019 2:02 AM, Rance Bedwell
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > R2549 says "An Auction also CANNOT be initiated unless the Auctioneer is
> able to give away each item in each of the Auction's lots."
> >
> > If Agora was unable to transfer the zombie ownership at the time the
> auction was initiated, does that mean the initiation failed in the first
> place?
> >
> > On Saturday, June 15, 2019, 04:49:50 AM CDT, Timon Walshe-Grey
> m...@timon.red wrote:
> >
> > If I recall correctly, there used to be a thing in rule 2551 that meant
> the clause "if the auctioneer CAN transfer the items... at will" didn't
> apply if the auctioneer was Agora. That seems to have gotten lost somewhere
> along the line - possibly in proposal 8113, which removed a sentence but
> I'm not sure which one.
> >
> > -twg
> >
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> >
> > On Saturday, June 15, 2019 5:52 AM, omd c.ome...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM James Cook jc...@cs.berkeley.edu
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ha, maybe. Here's another argument, though: Master is secured at a
> > > > power threshold of 2. Rule 2551 ("Auction End") only has power 1. I
> > > > doubt Rule 2551 can get around that by saying it's Agora doing it
> > > > rather than R2551, but if it can, I guess that could be used as an
> > > > escalation scam.
> > >
> > > Good catch. And it wouldn't get around that. As far as I know, Agora
> > > doesn't have its Power set, so Agora wouldn't have any more right to
> > > flip the switch than R2552.
> > > If Agora did have its Power set, then causing Agora to act would
> > > likely fall under
> > >
> > > 3. set or modify any other substantive aspect of an instrument
> > > with power greater than its own. A "substantive" aspect of an
> > > instrument is any aspect that affects the instrument's
> > > operation.
> > >
> > >
> > > ...or if not, there's a big hole in general. I think there might
> > > actually be precedent regarding this, since there have been a bunch of
> > > Power escalation scam attempts in the past, but I guess it's a moot
> > > point in this case.
>
>
>
Fw: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Forwarding to DIS - you sent this to me privately, presumably by mistake.
In answer to the question, that seems plausible to me.
-twg
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 2:02 AM, Rance Bedwell wrote:
>
>
> R2549 says "An Auction also CANNOT be initiated unless the Auctioneer is able
> to give away each item in each of the Auction's lots."
>
> If Agora was unable to transfer the zombie ownership at the time the auction
> was initiated, does that mean the initiation failed in the first place?
>
> On Saturday, June 15, 2019, 04:49:50 AM CDT, Timon Walshe-Grey m...@timon.red
> wrote:
>
> If I recall correctly, there used to be a thing in rule 2551 that meant the
> clause "if the auctioneer CAN transfer the items... at will" didn't apply if
> the auctioneer was Agora. That seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the
> line - possibly in proposal 8113, which removed a sentence but I'm not sure
> which one.
>
> -twg
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>
> On Saturday, June 15, 2019 5:52 AM, omd c.ome...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM James Cook jc...@cs.berkeley.edu wrote:
> >
> > > Ha, maybe. Here's another argument, though: Master is secured at a
> > > power threshold of 2. Rule 2551 ("Auction End") only has power 1. I
> > > doubt Rule 2551 can get around that by saying it's Agora doing it
> > > rather than R2551, but if it can, I guess that could be used as an
> > > escalation scam.
> >
> > Good catch. And it wouldn't get around that. As far as I know, Agora
> > doesn't have its Power set, so Agora wouldn't have any more right to
> > flip the switch than R2552.
> > If Agora did have its Power set, then causing Agora to act would
> > likely fall under
> >
> > 3. set or modify any other substantive aspect of an instrument
> > with power greater than its own. A "substantive" aspect of an
> > instrument is any aspect that affects the instrument's
> > operation.
> >
> >
> > ...or if not, there's a big hole in general. I think there might
> > actually be precedent regarding this, since there have been a bunch of
> > Power escalation scam attempts in the past, but I guess it's a moot
> > point in this case.
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
If I recall correctly, there used to be a thing in rule 2551 that meant the
clause "if the auctioneer CAN transfer the items... at will" didn't apply if
the auctioneer was Agora. That seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the
line - possibly in proposal 8113, which removed a sentence but I'm not sure
which one.
-twg
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 5:52 AM, omd wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM James Cook jc...@cs.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
> > Ha, maybe. Here's another argument, though: Master is secured at a
> > power threshold of 2. Rule 2551 ("Auction End") only has power 1. I
> > doubt Rule 2551 can get around that by saying it's Agora doing it
> > rather than R2551, but if it can, I guess that could be used as an
> > escalation scam.
>
> Good catch. And it wouldn't get around that. As far as I know, Agora
> doesn't have its Power set, so Agora wouldn't have any more right to
> flip the switch than R2552.
>
> If Agora did have its Power set, then causing Agora to act would
> likely fall under
>
> 3. set or modify any other substantive aspect of an instrument
> with power greater than its own. A "substantive" aspect of an
> instrument is any aspect that affects the instrument's
> operation.
>
> ...or if not, there's a big hole in general. I think there might
> actually be precedent regarding this, since there have been a bunch of
> Power escalation scam attempts in the past, but I guess it's a moot
> point in this case.
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM James Cook wrote:
> Ha, maybe. Here's another argument, though: Master is secured at a
> power threshold of 2. Rule 2551 ("Auction End") only has power 1. I
> doubt Rule 2551 can get around that by saying it's Agora doing it
> rather than R2551, but if it can, I guess that could be used as an
> escalation scam.
Good catch. And it wouldn't get around that. As far as I know, Agora
doesn't have its Power set, so Agora wouldn't have any more right to
flip the switch than R2552.
If Agora did have its Power set, then causing Agora to act would
likely fall under
3. set or modify any other substantive aspect of an instrument
with power greater than its own. A "substantive" aspect of an
instrument is any aspect that affects the instrument's
operation.
...or if not, there's a big hole in general. I think there might
actually be precedent regarding this, since there have been a bunch of
Power escalation scam attempts in the past, but I guess it's a moot
point in this case.
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 03:26, omd wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 7:44 PM James Cook wrote:
> > Could you elabourate? Even if we should pretend zombies are assets, it's
> > not always true that an asset's owner CAN transfer it. E.g. if I had blots
> > and auctioned them off, I don't think anything would allow me to transfer
> > them to the winner of the auction.
>
> Well... the specific wording is whether e CAN transfer them "at will".
> Rule 955 is titled "Determining the Will of Agora", and its text
> explains how to determine the outcome of Agoran decisions, such as
> proposals. It's only a medium-sized leap to infer that Agora can do
> something "at will" if a proposal can cause it to do it.
Ha, maybe. Here's another argument, though: Master is secured at a
power threshold of 2. Rule 2551 ("Auction End") only has power 1. I
doubt Rule 2551 can get around that by saying it's Agora doing it
rather than R2551, but if it can, I guess that could be used as an
escalation scam.
The text "For the purpose of such a auction, to transfer a zombie to a
player is to set that zombie's master switch to that player." is in a
power-2 rule, but if I understand right, that just changes how R2551
should be interpreted; it doesn't get around R2551 having lower power.
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 7:44 PM James Cook wrote: > Could you elabourate? Even if we should pretend zombies are assets, it's > not always true that an asset's owner CAN transfer it. E.g. if I had blots > and auctioned them off, I don't think anything would allow me to transfer > them to the winner of the auction. Well... the specific wording is whether e CAN transfer them "at will". Rule 955 is titled "Determining the Will of Agora", and its text explains how to determine the outcome of Agoran decisions, such as proposals. It's only a medium-sized leap to infer that Agora can do something "at will" if a proposal can cause it to do it.
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Yes, I am convinced that you are absolutely right. I guess nobody has any zombies then. On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:51 PM Rebecca wrote: > Oh sorry, I missed the key "if" in there > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:44 PM James Cook wrote: > >> Could you elabourate? Even if we should pretend zombies are assets, it's >> not always true that an asset's owner CAN transfer it. E.g. if I had blots >> and auctioned them off, I don't think anything would allow me to transfer >> them to the winner of the auction. >> >> On Fri., Jun. 14, 2019, 22:17 Rebecca, wrote: >> >> > Unlike the argument about blogs, this argument stretches annoying >> textual >> > ism beyond its breaking point. To transfer in this context means to >> change >> > from the ownership of one entity to anothwr. So the auctioneer CAN >> transfer >> > the switch: from agora to the auction winners. >> > >> > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: >> > >> > > Warning: I don't think paying Agora for one's prize will cause that >> > > zombie's Master switch to be flipped to the payer, and I plan to call >> a >> > > CFJ about it once someone tries to claim their zombie (easier to >> phrase >> > > the CFJ after that's happened). >> > > >> > > (I think the winners are still obligated to pay for their prizes.) >> > > >> > > My argument: >> > > >> > > R2551 says: >> > > >> > > > The winner of a lot SHALL pay the Auctioneer the number of the >> > > > Auction's currency equal to eir bid, in a single payment, in a >> > > > timely fashion. When e does so, if the auctioneer CAN transfer the >> > > > items in that lot to that winner at will, e immediately does so; >> > > > otherwise, e SHALL do so in a timely fashion. >> > > >> > > I don't think Agora CAN "transfer" a zombie to the winner. In a zombie >> > > auction, transferring means flipping the zombie's Master switch. >> That's >> > > a regulated action, and no rule says Agora can do it. >> > > >> > >> > -- >From V.J. Rada
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Oh sorry, I missed the key "if" in there On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:44 PM James Cook wrote: > Could you elabourate? Even if we should pretend zombies are assets, it's > not always true that an asset's owner CAN transfer it. E.g. if I had blots > and auctioned them off, I don't think anything would allow me to transfer > them to the winner of the auction. > > On Fri., Jun. 14, 2019, 22:17 Rebecca, wrote: > > > Unlike the argument about blogs, this argument stretches annoying textual > > ism beyond its breaking point. To transfer in this context means to > change > > from the ownership of one entity to anothwr. So the auctioneer CAN > transfer > > the switch: from agora to the auction winners. > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: > > > > > Warning: I don't think paying Agora for one's prize will cause that > > > zombie's Master switch to be flipped to the payer, and I plan to call a > > > CFJ about it once someone tries to claim their zombie (easier to phrase > > > the CFJ after that's happened). > > > > > > (I think the winners are still obligated to pay for their prizes.) > > > > > > My argument: > > > > > > R2551 says: > > > > > > > The winner of a lot SHALL pay the Auctioneer the number of the > > > > Auction's currency equal to eir bid, in a single payment, in a > > > > timely fashion. When e does so, if the auctioneer CAN transfer the > > > > items in that lot to that winner at will, e immediately does so; > > > > otherwise, e SHALL do so in a timely fashion. > > > > > > I don't think Agora CAN "transfer" a zombie to the winner. In a zombie > > > auction, transferring means flipping the zombie's Master switch. That's > > > a regulated action, and no rule says Agora can do it. > > > > > >
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Could you elabourate? Even if we should pretend zombies are assets, it's not always true that an asset's owner CAN transfer it. E.g. if I had blots and auctioned them off, I don't think anything would allow me to transfer them to the winner of the auction. On Fri., Jun. 14, 2019, 22:17 Rebecca, wrote: > Unlike the argument about blogs, this argument stretches annoying textual > ism beyond its breaking point. To transfer in this context means to change > from the ownership of one entity to anothwr. So the auctioneer CAN transfer > the switch: from agora to the auction winners. > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: > > > Warning: I don't think paying Agora for one's prize will cause that > > zombie's Master switch to be flipped to the payer, and I plan to call a > > CFJ about it once someone tries to claim their zombie (easier to phrase > > the CFJ after that's happened). > > > > (I think the winners are still obligated to pay for their prizes.) > > > > My argument: > > > > R2551 says: > > > > > The winner of a lot SHALL pay the Auctioneer the number of the > > > Auction's currency equal to eir bid, in a single payment, in a > > > timely fashion. When e does so, if the auctioneer CAN transfer the > > > items in that lot to that winner at will, e immediately does so; > > > otherwise, e SHALL do so in a timely fashion. > > > > I don't think Agora CAN "transfer" a zombie to the winner. In a zombie > > auction, transferring means flipping the zombie's Master switch. That's > > a regulated action, and no rule says Agora can do it. > > >
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Your message to the discussion list said 8, but on agora-business I see "Anyway I bid 7 coins on the ongoing zombie auction". On Fri., Jun. 14, 2019, 22:13 Rebecca, wrote: > Coe I bid eight coins so I should win the third zombie > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: > > > The zombie auction I initiated 2019-06-06 has ended. > > > > Lots: > > 1. Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > > 2. Corona > > 3. Hālian > > 4. Tarhalindur > > > > Bids (all times UTC): > > 2019-06-07 17:01: Rance, 7 Coins > > 2019-06-08 00:59: omd, 10 Coins > > 2019-06-10 08:17: twg, 1 Coin > > 2019-06-11 13:43: V.J. Rada, 7 Coins > > 2019-06-11 13:44: Baron von Vaderham, 11 Coins > > > > Winners: > > Baron von Vaderham wins Publius Scribonius Scholasticus. > > omd wins Corona. > > Rance wins Hālian. > > V.J. Rada wins Tarhalindur. > > >
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Unlike the argument about blogs, this argument stretches annoying textual ism beyond its breaking point. To transfer in this context means to change from the ownership of one entity to anothwr. So the auctioneer CAN transfer the switch: from agora to the auction winners. On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: > Warning: I don't think paying Agora for one's prize will cause that > zombie's Master switch to be flipped to the payer, and I plan to call a > CFJ about it once someone tries to claim their zombie (easier to phrase > the CFJ after that's happened). > > (I think the winners are still obligated to pay for their prizes.) > > My argument: > > R2551 says: > > > The winner of a lot SHALL pay the Auctioneer the number of the > > Auction's currency equal to eir bid, in a single payment, in a > > timely fashion. When e does so, if the auctioneer CAN transfer the > > items in that lot to that winner at will, e immediately does so; > > otherwise, e SHALL do so in a timely fashion. > > I don't think Agora CAN "transfer" a zombie to the winner. In a zombie > auction, transferring means flipping the zombie's Master switch. That's > a regulated action, and no rule says Agora can do it. >
DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Coe I bid eight coins so I should win the third zombie On Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:09 PM James Cook wrote: > The zombie auction I initiated 2019-06-06 has ended. > > Lots: > 1. Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > 2. Corona > 3. Hālian > 4. Tarhalindur > > Bids (all times UTC): > 2019-06-07 17:01: Rance, 7 Coins > 2019-06-08 00:59: omd, 10 Coins > 2019-06-10 08:17: twg, 1 Coin > 2019-06-11 13:43: V.J. Rada, 7 Coins > 2019-06-11 13:44: Baron von Vaderham, 11 Coins > > Winners: > Baron von Vaderham wins Publius Scribonius Scholasticus. > omd wins Corona. > Rance wins Hālian. > V.J. Rada wins Tarhalindur. >
DIS: Re: OFF: End of June Zombie Auction
Warning: I don't think paying Agora for one's prize will cause that zombie's Master switch to be flipped to the payer, and I plan to call a CFJ about it once someone tries to claim their zombie (easier to phrase the CFJ after that's happened). (I think the winners are still obligated to pay for their prizes.) My argument: R2551 says: > The winner of a lot SHALL pay the Auctioneer the number of the > Auction's currency equal to eir bid, in a single payment, in a > timely fashion. When e does so, if the auctioneer CAN transfer the > items in that lot to that winner at will, e immediately does so; > otherwise, e SHALL do so in a timely fashion. I don't think Agora CAN "transfer" a zombie to the winner. In a zombie auction, transferring means flipping the zombie's Master switch. That's a regulated action, and no rule says Agora can do it.
