Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Michele Neylon - Blacknight
Brian I think this is a very positive move. LEA (and others) need to be part of the dialogue and the technical community need to learn how to engage with them meaningfully. Anyone who wants to start making hyperbolic arguments about big government / brother / black helicopters is deluded.

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Michele Neylon - Blacknight
Vittorio I think this is going way off topic, but since you started .. Most businesses cannot afford to engage in policy with ICANN, RIPE or anywhere else. A lot of people make the false assumption that somehow because they’re a company that they’re funding their staff to attend events and

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Vittorio Bertola
> Il 2 agosto 2017 alle 12.23 denis ha scritto: > > It is not a question of 'getting heard', it is knowing you have a voice > and where to use it. Literally anyone can join a discussion on a Working > Group mailing list, make comments, ask questions, agree or

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread denis
Hi Vittorio On 02/08/2017 12:03, Vittorio Bertola wrote: Il 1 agosto 2017 alle 23.47 denis ha scritto: "Part of my job is to help LEAs understand this process and how their suggestions on changing policy would impact the broader RIPE community, such as making

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Vittorio Bertola
> Il 1 agosto 2017 alle 23.47 denis ha scritto: > > > > > "Part of my job is to help LEAs understand this process > and how their suggestions on changing policy would impact the broader RIPE > community, such as making changes to the RIPE Database, for

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Brian Nisbet
On 01/08/2017 17:22, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:19:50PM +0100, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: >> This is the first I've even heard of this. Surely the membership >> should at least be asked whether they want an organisation they >> are *mandatory* members of to become a close

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Brian Nisbet
I realise Denis has already answered some of this, but... On 01/08/2017 20:58, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 06:31:07PM +0200, Sander Steffann wrote: >> If you dislike the engagement that RIPE NCC has with external >> organisations (see >>

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Ronald F. Guilmette
In message , Malte von dem Hagen wrote: >We can of course start calling each other's statements idiotic... I'm sorry. I confess that I haven't really been paying attention to to this thread because I've been busy working on

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Malte von dem Hagen
Hi, Am 01.08.2017 um 18:44 schrieb Sascha Luck [ml] >: > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:29:04PM +0200, Malte von dem Hagen wrote: >> nobody is a mandatory member of RIPE. > > I did contemplate putting text in my email to forestall this > idiotic argument

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Amelia Andersdotter
On 2017-08-01 18:19, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: > On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 03:00:28PM +0100, Brian Nisbet wrote: >> https://labs.ripe.net/Members/richard_leaning/bringing-law-enforcement-into-the-ripe-community >> > > It certainly is "interesting". For instance: > The MoU is aspirational. RIPE NCC

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-02 Thread Malte von dem Hagen
Hi, > Am 01.08.2017 um 18:19 schrieb Sascha Luck [ml] >: > Surely the membership should at least be asked whether they want an > organisation they > are *mandatory* members of nobody is a mandatory member of RIPE. Best regards, Malte -- 
Malte von

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread denis
Hi Sascha On 01/08/2017 21:58, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: On the RIPE community side, I find these statements problematic: "[LEAs] also have a right to help shape RIPE Policy using the Policy Development Process." They do? My understanding of the PDP is that *individuals* make policy proposals

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Sascha Luck [ml]
On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 06:13:54PM +0200, Malte von dem Hagen wrote: Nobody mandatorily needs IP space. Point is, if you ???need??? own IP space, that is always out of free will, curiosity, business concept or something similar, but never by force. You just weaken yourself by enclosing a

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Sascha Luck [ml]
On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 06:31:07PM +0200, Sander Steffann wrote: If you dislike the engagement that RIPE NCC has with external organisations (see https://www.ripe.net/about-us/what-we-do/engagement-external-organisations) then the RIPE NCC General Meeting and/or exec-bo...@ripe.net seem the

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Sascha Luck [ml]
On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:29:04PM +0200, Malte von dem Hagen wrote: nobody is a mandatory member of RIPE. I did contemplate putting text in my email to forestall this idiotic argument because I knew someone would not be above bringing it. Everyone in the RIPE NCC service region who needs

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Sascha Luck [ml]
On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 05:19:50PM +0100, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote: This is the first I've even heard of this. Surely the membership should at least be asked whether they want an organisation they are *mandatory* members of to become a close ally of a political LEA like Europol. Oh, and can we

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Sascha Luck [ml]
On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 03:00:28PM +0100, Brian Nisbet wrote: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/richard_leaning/bringing-law-enforcement-into-the-ripe-community It certainly is "interesting". For instance: "we recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Europol to foster even better

[anti-abuse-wg] Bringing Law Enforcement Into the RIPE Community

2017-08-01 Thread Brian Nisbet
Colleagues, Given the relationship between the AA-WG and LEAs I think it's useful to share this article by Richard Leaning on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/richard_leaning/bringing-law-enforcement-into-the-ripe-community Brian -- Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG,