Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
Bill, Good point re GM hybridizing being faster than traditional methods. I hadn't thought about that important difference. I assume the scientists still have to do observation trials for a few years after selecting the potential hybrids. I'm wondering what the turn around time is for GM trials compared to decades for conventional hybridizing? Your idea of identifying an apple variety that already has the gene that imparts the trait that is wanted and then using conventional hybridizing to develop a new cultivar from that makes good sense. FYI An interesting piece of history from here in NB that is relevant to this topic. Francis Peabody Sharp of Woodstock, NB was doing true scientific hybridizing in the 1850s and he sped up his trials by cutting off the tips of the hybridized seedlings/whips and grafting them onto mature, bearing trees. One mature tree might have a dozen or more trial hybrids grafted onto it. The resulting hybrids when grafted onto a mature tree would bear their first apples in 3 to 4 years rather than waiting for the experimental seedlings to grow to bearing age (6 to 10 years). Is that also being done today in experimental stations? It's an area of horticulture I'm not very familiar with. Daryl Hunter On Fri, 2/27/15, Fleming, William w...@montana.edu wrote: Daryl, The reason they breed by manipulating genes rather than conventional breeding is because it only takes years rather than decades to come up with the desirable result.While I don’t have a strong opinion either way on GMOs what I feel is a better use of the technology is to identify the gene with the trait you desire and what variety has that gene naturally then use conventional breeding for the desired new fruit.Seems that might go over better with the public once it’s explained, plus the crop wouldn’t have to be labeled GMO if that ever comes around.Bill FlemingMontana State UniversityWestern Ag Research Center580 Quast LaneCorvallis, MT 59828 -Original Message- From:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Daryl Hunter Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:09 PM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples Keeping with the Arctic Apple discussion. The Arctic Apple is supposed to be like no other apple in that they have turned off a gene so that it does not turn brown like all other apples. That statement is misleading since there are apple varieties/cultivars among the thousands of varieties that can be sliced and the pieces do not turn brown. These are natural bee pollinated genetics, not scientifically manipulated. I wonder why they would spend so much money developing a non-browning apple when they could easily do it the benign way? I think there is more cost in marketing hype here than in the actual genetic work. For example, here in New Brunswick, Canada we have the Tangowine apple, dark purplish skin, snow white sweet flesh with attractive pink streaks, and cut pieces can be set on a table for days without turning brown. It is also very resistant to scab. It was an open pollinated apple found growing in a gravel pit. In their promotion of the Arctic apple they added a challenge, Now if we could just get rid of the seeds! Well, we have seedless apples here in New Brunswick too. Daryl Hunter apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
Keeping with the Arctic Apple discussion. The Arctic Apple is supposed to be like no other apple in that they have turned off a gene so that it does not turn brown like all other apples. That statement is misleading since there are apple varieties/cultivars among the thousands of varieties that can be sliced and the pieces do not turn brown. These are natural bee pollinated genetics, not scientifically manipulated. I wonder why they would spend so much money developing a non-browning apple when they could easily do it the benign way? I think there is more cost in marketing hype here than in the actual genetic work. For example, here in New Brunswick, Canada we have the Tangowine apple, dark purplish skin, snow white sweet flesh with attractive pink streaks, and cut pieces can be set on a table for days without turning brown. It is also very resistant to scab. It was an open pollinated apple found growing in a gravel pit. In their promotion of the Arctic apple they added a challenge, Now if we could just get rid of the seeds! Well, we have seedless apples here in New Brunswick too. Daryl Hunter ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight Update
A side note to the discussions regarding fire blight. The late Fred Janson, one of the cofounders of NAFEX (North American Fruit Explorers), and who at one time had as many as 800 different apple varieties growing in the same location, was convinced that Blenheim Orange apple was highly resistant, if not immune to fire blight. Over the years that he had this old variety in his orchard surrounded by trees that got infection, the Blenheim Orange never got infected. Apparently there are other varieties that show some resistance to fire blight such as Dakota, Haralson, Red Baron, Red Duchess, Sweet Sixteen and State Fair. I'm not sure what some resistance means. Does anyone know if any research is being done on developing fire blight resistant apple varieties, similar to the PRI program that developed highly scab resistant varieties like Prima, Pricilla, William's Pride, Redfree and Liberty? Daryl Hunter Keswick Ridge New Brunswick Canada - Original Message - From: Deborah I. Breth To: Apple-Crop Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight Update Hi all interested in fire blight. I have been working with fire blight ever since the epidemic we had in WNY in the early 1990's. I worked with Wayne Wilcox to validate a new model at that time Maryblyt which would have warned us of the intense pressure we experienced the previous year, but it was not yet implemented in the industry. To be brief... when we talk about how many streptomycin sprays applied, it is never relevant to me unless I know how it was timed and that a predictive model for blossom blight was used to determine the timing - Cougarblight or Maryblyt (a new windows version might be available soon). No models are black and white and growers still need to call the shots - like what was the actual temperature in the orchard site, and although it did not rain, did you have a dew period in the orchard site that went undetected. I hope that all growers are incorporating a prediction model that is validated in their region to best time blossom blight sprays as a starting point for preventing an epidemic. Pruning out strikes? Unless the tree shoots stop growing, and you have hot, dry weather, it is difficult to not cut out the strikes without seeing infection below the cut or in the new shoot that springs from the strike. I have seen a lot of effort in removing strikes, and if just a few per tree in large trees, it might be worth it, but in highly susceptible trees that are vigorous and continue to get infected shoots and canker blight, eventually you have to walk away and wait until dormant pruning time to correct the situation, and follow up with copper pre-bloom, well-timed strep sprays during bloom..etc. My experience is that growers suffer an epidemic year, and then all pieces of the management puzzle are put in place the following year and there is no fire blight the following year. Let's hope that is the case and we don't lose too many M9, M26 rootstocks in the meantime. Sincerely, Deborah I. Breth Area Extension Educator - Team Leader Cornell Cooperative Extension - Lake Ontario Fruit Program Phone: 585-798-4265 12690 State Route 31, Albion, NY 14411
Re: Apple-Crop: Early bearing
In ye olden days they would use a strap with nails, or a metal chain, and whip or beat their apple trees around the trunks. That action wounded, or bruised, the trees and stressed them, just as super dwarfing rootstocks stress trees, and cause them to go into early bearing. Nova Spy, like its siblings Sweet 16 and Sandow, has branches that want to grow straight up, so they need to be bent to a more horizontal position, even if they are on dwarfing rootstocks. Bending the entire trees, as in espalier training, or in a hedge row along a wire, also encourages earlier bearing. If going into your orchard with a whip to beat your trees, I would suggest doing it after dark so nobody can see you. Daryl Hunter Keswick Ridge New Brunswick, Canada - Original Message - From: dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com To: Apple-Crop Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Early bearing We have found that branch bending has worked the best for us on B9 and M9 as well as M26. We use the rubber bands now and find that they require the least amount of time of any other technique. We use the bio-degradable in May and they are gone by August or just after terminals have set. With the wires, you have to go back and retrieve them later which does take some time. With either vertical axe or tall spindle, pruning is at a minimum, so more time is saved on pruning. In my opinion, this is the most cost effective method of all. We are now in the process of going back to our vertical axe trees planted 8 x 14 and are converting them to tall spindle as we interplant new trees between 4-5 year olds and doubling density to 4 x 14. If anyone is interested in more detail feel free to contact me. Dennis Norton Royal Oak Farm Orchard Office (815) 648-4467 Mobile (815) 228-2174 Fax (609) 228-2174 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.theorchardkeeper.blogspot.com http://www.revivalhymn.com - Original Message - From: Maurice Tougas To: Apple-Crop Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:00 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Early bearing I've found all the techniques mentioned work to some degree. I suspect that the more of them employed, the more likely you will succeed. One mentioned only briefly was the bending of branches below horizontal. It can be is very time consuming, and very effective. People of course have been using spreaders, weights, kite string, pea string, rubber bands,.. but what we've been using for a few years now are 18-24 inch pieces of soft 14 or 16 ga wire. Either bend a small loop at each end in the shop, or carry them straight in bundles and make quick loops in orchard. Quick and easy, and can be repositioned later. If 18 is too short, loop two together. Mo Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough, MA On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:58 PM, jscr...@aol.com wrote: My experience is that in Virginia Spys are late producers. Scoring really works. There are more and less severe scoring, you might want to try several types on some limbs. The least severe is one cut around the trunk under the scaffold limps. The most severe would be to remove about 1/8 inch section. Some remove a larger section and replace it upside down. It is most important to cover any such wound to keep it from drying and from fire blight. I have used several layers of masking tape. It will come off by itself later. One or two weeks after bloom is when I have made the scoring. Good luck, you can really get their attention with scoring. John Crumlpacker Timberville, Virginia 540 896 6000 In a message dated 3/10/2009 4:00:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, schoo...@kwic.com writes: Would someone care to divulge a recipe for getting slow-to-bear varieties into production sooner. I have Northern Spy in mind using Ethrel or NAA or combinations. Apogee perhaps. Other techniques? Harold Schooley Orchards Limited Simcoe, Ontario Canada Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
Re: Apple-Crop: Early season hail damage
Glen, Not far away from you, across the border in Keswick Ridge, New Brunswick we got hit twice in the same day with severe hail damage. I've posted some pictures to illustrate. http://naturetone.tripod.com/hail/index.htm These fruit are about 3/4 to 1 inch in diameter. Obviously fruit in the lower canopy got less damage, bruising but not cutting. (Ignore the advertising on these two pages it is automatic when using free web sites.) Daryl Hunter Keswick Ridge New Brunswick Canada - Original Message - From: Maurice Tougas To: Apple-Crop Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Early season hail damage Glen In early July 2001 we experienced a pretty good hail storm on our 25 acres of apples. All fruit had at least dents, many multiple skin pierces. Crop insurance adjuster called it 100% loss. We sell all of our crop retail, mostly pyo. It was heartbreaking for the entire season to look at all those damaged fruit every day. We spent the next month thinning out as many torn fruit as we could. That was a good move. At harvest we explained to all customer that the fruit had been Kissed by Mother Nature. We found that most (99% )customers were content, though they did not purchase as much fruit as they would have. I felt we had already sustained a loss of volume, and an increase in expenses, and so could not afford a loss on price, and so we raised our price 15% over the last years price. That turned out to be the best decision we made, as our dollar sales that year were the best in 20 years. I know it is counter intuitive, but the numbers do not lie.Be upfront with your customers. They have a stake in your continuing in business. Remind them of that! Last night we saw hail for the second time this season. Last year, twice, and twice in 2001. In the previous 20 years, we saw hail 1 time. Is this pattern typical for a short period, or are we entering a prolonged pattern? Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA On Jun 22, 2007, at 10:08 PM, Karl Townsend wrote: The grower and I would appreciate hearing from folks who have experienced similar situation and what were the eventual effects of the early season not-cutting hail dents. Thanks, Glen Those dents will leave a dead and pithy spot in the apple just under the surface. Not number 1 grade. I'm sure no two hail storms are exactly the same. In the last 25 years we've had early hail three times. I think it pays for farm market orchards to go through the trees and hand thin most of the hail marks out. The remaining fruit will be larger and higher quality. And its easier to sort bad apples out now so you don't have an awful time at harvest. Of course if you've got 70% plus damage, save your time - go fishing. I feel for you, its a real heartbreak. Karl
Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)
That's an important point Arthur - of the thousands of heirloom (antique) apples, there are misnamed varieties, duplicate names, and synonyms, and many strains have been developed from them. A scab prone Baldwin might not actually be a Baldwin. It is not always easy to know if a variety is in fact true to name, or just similar. Scionwood gets mixed up when labeling, tags get lost, or people just forget what the variety was that their grandfather planted. I have grown over 150 varieties, old and new, over the past 35 years. This is a small number of varieties compared to the many thousands listed in various pomology books published over the last few centuries. The Book of Apples published in 1993 by the Brogdale Horticultural Trust in England describes over 2000 varieties (cultivars) in their orchard collection. There are also repositories in the United States that have rescued several thousand antique varieties as well as accessions from Kazakhstan where all our domestic varieties originate from. I read somewhere that all the apples described in the two volume Apples of New York (the Bible for identifying old varieties), published in 1905, were chance seedlings except one variety. Except for one, the rest were not deliberate crosses. The observation here then, is that over a period of several hundreds or thousands of years people would select chance seedlings that suited them best for propagation in their area. This was before the 1880's when chemicals were introduced to control diseases and insect pests. If they lived in a warm, humid region which encouraged scab and fire blight, they would avoid planting varieties prone to these diseases. This was a form of natural selection and a type of informal breeding program. At least 90% of the old varieties I have collected from orchards (often abandoned) in my region do not get scab and this is a highly scab prone area.. Other varieties prone to scab here might grow clean in dryer regions without the need for fungicide applications. This observation becomes apparent in organizations like NAFEX where members exchange varieties from across the country. Wealthy is one great old variety that is highly resistant to scab. So is Gideon. Both originated with Peter Gideon in Minnesota (chance seedlings also). The late Fred Janson (one of the founders of NAFEX) believed, from his observation of many years, that Blenheim Orange was completely immune to fire blight. Sadly, such varieties were dropped from the market place when chemicals made control of diseases possible for susceptible varieties. Of course the concern for pesticide and fungicide on health has prompted the search for natural/genetic resistance in apples over the past three or four decades. Dr. Robert Lamb did a lot of research in this area and introduced some wonderful new resistant varieties. None were perfect, some dropped early, or they didn't keep well, or were biennial, etc. But still, there have been some very good resistant varieties developed. Many growers have tried some of them. Redfree is one that gets a good reputation in some areas. Liberty, Prima, and Freedom are also good disease resistant varieties, but may vary in quality from region to region, and they may require more rigid harvesting requirements. There are hundreds more. The problem with these new disease resistant varieties, or even many old heirloom varieties that resist disease, is not their color, nor their flavor, nor storage and shipping quality, but in marketing and public acceptance. Daryl Hunter Keswick Ridge NB Canada - Original Message - From: Arthur Harvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same) Certainly in New England at this time, Baldwin is very close to scab immune. But not all trees described as Baldwin are necessarily genetically the same. Yes, the organic apples grown in eastern Europe or western Asia would not meet American standards for appearance or other qualities, although consumers seem to accept them. So maybe there is something we don't know. --- Daniel Cooley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mo, you're right about the breeding programs attempting to develop resistant varieties, but I'm not sure they've done it. Some history: up until the last part of the 1800's, with rare exceptions, the varieties of apples grown commercially were from chance seedlings. It was common in the early 1800's in New England to throw a bunch of seeds from cider pomice out and scratch them into the ground, in a year or two transplant the ones that looked promising , and then after that see which trees had reasonably edible fruit. Of course, there were named varieties, in fact, lots of them. One source I've read suggested that there may have been as many as 14,000 named apple varieties in the U.S. at the peak in the nineteenth
