Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 21:53:53 -0700, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:
>I personally know many experienced Linux users (whom I consider far
>more experienced than myself) who can't tell you which desktop
>environment they prefer.

Most are using command line anyway and light weight window managers
without a desktop environment are very popular among Arch users.
Most, if not all Arch users prefer Arch Linux blue painted bike sheds:

http://www.outdoordecorcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/bike-shed-11.jpg

Assuming that somebody has got no second computer with Internet access
maybe or maybe not a few information is or isn't missing, but since an
experienced Linux user knows that maybe PPPoE is required, visiting the
related wiki before starting the installation could be done. Taking a
brief look at the new guide, I couldn't find something missing. If
somebody should notice that something is missing, why not simply
participate at the discussion at
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Talk:Installation_guide ?

Everybody is able to participate at the Arch wiki, nobody first needs to
beg to become member of a special group, as it is required for the
Ubuntu wiki/help pages. If you notice that the new beginners guide
should be incomplete or too hard to understand, then help maintaining
the guide. 

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Kyle Terrien via arch-general]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 04:55:19 +
Sajjad Heydari via arch-general  wrote:
> It has been merged with the installation guide.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016, 9:23 AM David C. Rankin <
> drankina...@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:  
> 
> > Archdevs,
> >
> >   I went to review the Beginner's Guide and it was no longer listed
> > on the main
> > page. I then specifically searched for it, found it in the topics,
> > and then was
> > redirected to the bare-bones "Install" page. What happened to the
> > Beginner's Guide?
> >
> > --
> > David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
> >  

On a related note, there is a stale "Beginner's Guide" link that
redirects to the new installation guide.  This link is now redundant
because there is an "Installation Guide" link right above it.

--Kyle

-- 
The computer can't tell you the emotional story.  It can give you the
exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
- Frank Zappa


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Kyle Terrien via arch-general]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:
> On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> >see below
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >  
> >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new
> >> users,  
> >
> >I strongly agree.  
> 
> This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man
> pages and the community provided documentation, ie., people for whom
> Arch is the wrong choice anyway…
> 
> /J
> 

So, is making people hunt for information a ritualistic hazing?

As much as I love the Arch Wiki (and I really do because it is a great
source of information), I don't understand why basic things like this
change very often.  Removing the Beginner's Guide from the home page?
This is just another Big Change made with the best of intentions.

Moving stuff around like this is like that supermarket that keeps
reorganizing its shelves.  Everything is there, but it is in a
different place, and you need to waste time looking for what you want.

Anecdote: when I installed Arch a few years ago, I followed both the
Beginner's Guide and the Installation Guide simultaneously.  The duality
was a little confusing, and I agree that if these guides can be merged
in an elegant way, they should.

But I disagree with the "hazing" attitude.  The whole point of a wiki
is to make information accessible.  Yes, while installing Arch for the
first time you will definitely hunt for a lot of information.  It is a
lot of hard work.  However, purposefully making that information harder
to find is wrong; wikis are supposed make that job easier.

I also think that expecting a new Arch user to know *exactly* what
software configuration he wants is unreasonable.  I personally know
many experienced Linux users (whom I consider far more experienced than
myself) who can't tell you which desktop environment they prefer.
However, they can blow your mind with their C and shell knowledge.

If/when these advanced users decide to learn more about distro innards
and try Arch, we should welcome them, not haze them.

--Kyle Terrien

-- 
The computer can't tell you the emotional story.  It can give you the
exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
- Frank Zappa


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[mick]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:

> On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> >see below
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >  
> >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,  
> >
> >I strongly agree.  
> 
> This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and the
> community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong 
> choice
> anyway…
> 
> /J
> 
Unless you are already an arch install expert (the clear target of the 
"Installation Guide as it stood about 15 months ago) you are unlikley to get to 
a point where you can comfortably access the 'community provided documention' 
let alone find examples that clarify things.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Jason,

Thank you for the link to the Beginner's Guide!

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Oon-Ee Ng via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Francis Gerund via arch-general
 wrote:
> Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide been
> saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?

That would not be useful because wiki instructions go out of date over time.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Doug Newgard  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 21:01:55 -0400
> Dave via arch-general  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Jason Ryan via arch-general <
>> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and
>> > the
>> > community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong
>> > choice
>> > anyway…
>>
>>
>> As a new user of Arch, I think this attitude is incorrect as well as
>> harmful to Arch.
>
> I think putting a list of commands in the wiki is much, much more harmful to
> Arch. Arch is a niche distro, not meant to be something grandma installs
> because someone told her it was the thing to do.


While I agree that Arch is not for everyone, comparing users for whom
details on their operating system are not clear/important to 'grandma'
is unnecessary and probably discriminatory (what do you have against
grandma?)

Jason Wryan is correct, Arch is targetted at a particular type of
user. No need to belittle those who don't fall into that type.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 10:46pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:

Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide been
saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?


You can see an old revision here:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide=446855

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide been
saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Doug Newgard]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 21:01:55 -0400
Dave via arch-general  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Jason Ryan via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and
> > the
> > community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong
> > choice
> > anyway…  
> 
> 
> As a new user of Arch, I think this attitude is incorrect as well as
> harmful to Arch.

I think putting a list of commands in the wiki is much, much more harmful to
Arch. Arch is a niche distro, not meant to be something grandma installs
because someone told her it was the thing to do.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[aur basica via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Dave via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Jason Ryan via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> >
> >> see below
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> >> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,
> >>>
> >>
> >> I strongly agree.
> >>
> >
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages
> and
> > the
> > community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong
> > choice
> > anyway…
>
>
> As a new user of Arch, I think this attitude is incorrect as well as
> harmful to Arch.
>

Arch is geared towards (and I quote) "the competent Linux® user" and the
installation guide offers everything someone familiar with their system
needs. The main benefit of the beginner's guide was that it offered all the
information in one location, but this information hasn't disappeared as
it's available on other pages, linked to when necessary. This once again
shouldn't pose an issue to the more advanced users. The beginner's guide
did a lot more hand-holding which if we're catering to more advanced users
is not only adding unnecessary information it's potentially attracting
users who are not going to be able to properly run and maintain the system
after the install.

As a personal example, I recently installed Arch on one of my PCs and I
found the beginner's guide to be way too verbose. I got lost trying to find
what else I was meant to do and was hit with a whole bunch of unneeded
information. The install guide is nice and concise and I was able to
quickly skim through it and get the information I need. It saves me the
need to write my own notes, which I'd be tempted to do if we had only the
beginner's guide.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Dave via arch-general]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Jason Ryan via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
>
>> see below
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
>> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,
>>>
>>
>> I strongly agree.
>>
>
> This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and
> the
> community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong
> choice
> anyway…


As a new user of Arch, I think this attitude is incorrect as well as
harmful to Arch.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[D C via arch-general]

Someone did mention that the two guides merged, so now that only one list
is being maintained, they can focus on making the one list more
comprehensive.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Dave via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> see below
>
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > IMHO, for new users, the "Installation Guide" is not, never has been, and
> > may never be a substitute for the Beginner's Guide.
>
>
> As a new Arch user, I completely agree.
>
>
> >
> > I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,
>
>
> I strongly agree.
>

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:

see below

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:


I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,


I strongly agree.


This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and the
community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong choice
anyway…

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Dave via arch-general]

see below

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

>
> IMHO, for new users, the "Installation Guide" is not, never has been, and
> may never be a substitute for the Beginner's Guide.


As a new Arch user, I completely agree.


>
> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,


I strongly agree.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

[EDIT:  in the previous post, the phrase "snip hunt" should of course been
"snipe hunt".]


On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund  wrote:

> Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide
> been saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?
>
> IMHO, for new users, the "Installation Guide" is not, never has been, and
> may never be a substitute for the Beginner's Guide.  The Installation Guide
> does not have enough detail, and many (most?) new users will not put up
> with being sent on a sadistic snip hunt through the thick jungles of the
> Arch Wiki, jus to do a basic console-only install.  And the elinks text
> browser on the install iso "just doesn't cut it".
>
> (Don't get me wrong - the Arch Wiki is a tremendous resource, maybe the
> best resource in the GNU/Linux ecosystem.  But, like Hollywood, it is no
> place for children.)
>
> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users, who
> are the "life blood" of Arch, or any other organization or movement.
> Without new growth, any organism risks withering on the vine.  Just ask
> OpenBSD.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Jelle van der Waa  wrote:
>
>> On 09/20/16 at 01:58am, David C. Rankin wrote:
>> > On 09/20/2016 12:00 AM, D C via arch-general wrote:
>> >
>> > The beginner's guide always provided an expanded section on each topic
>> in the
>> > install where different cards and potential pitfalls were discussed.
>> There was
>> > the varying network configuration options, netctl, etc., RAID setup was
>> > addressed, etc.. Now - nothing.
>>
>> If you look closely the information is there, for example:
>>
>> netctl => "Configure the network for the newly installed environment:
>> see Network configuration." =>
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration
>>
>> RAID setup => "If wanting to create any stacked block devices for LVM,
>> disk encryption or RAID, do it now." =>
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/RAID
>>
>> So it's all in there, you just have to look :-)
>>
>> > We should consider the beginner's guide again -- it was invaluable to
>> new and
>> > beginner users to help them get a feel for arch. Even for those versed
>> in Linux,
>> > and with Arch, for the guys like me that do an install on a biennial
>> basis, that
>> > guide was a savior.
>> >
>> > Did no one want to maintain it? Why was the full beginner's guide
>> deleted?
>>
>> This has been announced and discussed on the mailing list and irc. And
>> the descision has been made to merge it into one page.
>>
>> The new smaller guide just links directly to the pages which contain
>> detailed information without the duplication of information.
>>
>> --
>> Jelle van der Waa
>>
>
>

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Where have the the most recent versions of the "real" Beginner's Guide been
saved?  And how can they be retrieved (maybe using git, for example)?

IMHO, for new users, the "Installation Guide" is not, never has been, and
may never be a substitute for the Beginner's Guide.  The Installation Guide
does not have enough detail, and many (most?) new users will not put up
with being sent on a sadistic snip hunt through the thick jungles of the
Arch Wiki, jus to do a basic console-only install.  And the elinks text
browser on the install iso "just doesn't cut it".

(Don't get me wrong - the Arch Wiki is a tremendous resource, maybe the
best resource in the GNU/Linux ecosystem.  But, like Hollywood, it is no
place for children.)

I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users, who
are the "life blood" of Arch, or any other organization or movement.
Without new growth, any organism risks withering on the vine.  Just ask
OpenBSD.





On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Jelle van der Waa  wrote:

> On 09/20/16 at 01:58am, David C. Rankin wrote:
> > On 09/20/2016 12:00 AM, D C via arch-general wrote:
> >
> > The beginner's guide always provided an expanded section on each topic
> in the
> > install where different cards and potential pitfalls were discussed.
> There was
> > the varying network configuration options, netctl, etc., RAID setup was
> > addressed, etc.. Now - nothing.
>
> If you look closely the information is there, for example:
>
> netctl => "Configure the network for the newly installed environment:
> see Network configuration." =>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration
>
> RAID setup => "If wanting to create any stacked block devices for LVM,
> disk encryption or RAID, do it now." =>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/RAID
>
> So it's all in there, you just have to look :-)
>
> > We should consider the beginner's guide again -- it was invaluable to
> new and
> > beginner users to help them get a feel for arch. Even for those versed
> in Linux,
> > and with Arch, for the guys like me that do an install on a biennial
> basis, that
> > guide was a savior.
> >
> > Did no one want to maintain it? Why was the full beginner's guide
> deleted?
>
> This has been announced and discussed on the mailing list and irc. And
> the descision has been made to merge it into one page.
>
> The new smaller guide just links directly to the pages which contain
> detailed information without the duplication of information.
>
> --
> Jelle van der Waa
>

Re: [arch-general] Error when starting Opera

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Thanks guys.

Fortunately, I was able to remember the old password for the "Login"
keyring.  So I was able to change it from within Seahorse (the "Passwords
and Keys" application program in Gnome).  So that problem is solved.

But . . .  while in Seahorse, I realized that in the "Certificates" section
on the left side of the window, there was another folder with a lock icon,
labeled "Gnome 2 Key Storage".  There seem to be no entries showing within
it.

The "Gnome 2 Key Storage" folder can only be locked or unolcked with the
OLD password, not the NEW password.  And it can not be changed or deleted
from within Seahorse.

I am using Gnome 3, so I don't know why it is there, but I don't know if it
can be removed, and even if so, then how?

And I do wish that I could at least change the password for it, since I
hate to keep track of an old password just in case I need to use it to
unlock the folder sometime.

Re: [arch-general] Supermicro cd/dvd inst error: ARCH_201603 device did not show up after 30 seconds

[Mauro Santos via arch-general]

Have you tried with the latest install ISO?

You also seem to have physical access to the hardware, any special
reason why you have to use optical media instead of a usb flash drive?

-- 
Mauro Santos

Re: [arch-general] Error when starting Opera

[Lukas Rose]

> On 21 Sep 2016, at 04:29, Francis Gerund via arch-general 
>  wrote:
> 
> "Enter password to unlock you login keyring
> 
> The password you use to log in to your computer no
> longer matches that of your login keyring."

If it asks for the password of the login key ring, it'so probably trying to 
store some confidential information (certificates, passwords, …) in there. The 
keyring is a secure place for Applications to save such data. On creation of 
the user account, the login key ring gets encrypted with the initial password 
the user used. As soon as you change that password, the password of the login 
keyring and the user account password don't match anymore, so your login 
keychain can't be decrypted upon login. Users usually don't notice this, until 
an application tries to use the login keychain. Then that popup message 
prompting for a password appears.

You can try unlocking your login keychain with the password you first used for 
your user account (if you can remember). If you can't, you should use your 
keyring utility (possibly gnome-keyring) to delete your old and create a new 
keyring, using the same password you're currently using as your user account 
password.

But that's why changing user account password doesn't fix it, as well as why 
the privileged password request still works (that's your user password, the 
login keychain is not). And I doubt that this is a configuration issue of 
Opera, unless you can disable its use of the keyring. 

Re: [arch-general] Error when starting Opera

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 22:29:14 -0400, Francis Gerund wrote:
>I did a lengthy configuration of Opera, then re-started it.  Same
>error. I re-installed Opera using pacman -Rsn.  Same error.

And after moving away or deleting $HOME/.config/opera ?

I get tons of error messages and a stack trace when launching Opera by
command line. Btw. "strip" is disabled.

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep strip /var/abs/community/opera/PKGBUILD 
options=(!strip !zipman)

However, despite the errors Opera runs as expected, without an issue.
I'm not asked to enter a password and I can't imagine why this should
happen, excepted of e.g.
https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/set-password-for-your-browser-opera-lock/
https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#q=opera+requires+password

Regards,
Ralf