Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-21 Thread Tom Marchant
On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 21:53:27 +1000, Robin Vowels wrote: >Your belligerent attitude and insulting remarks are >tiresome. PKB

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-20 Thread Robin Vowels
3:44 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-20 04:25, Seymour J Metz wrote: I see that you're citing sources that you haven't read; Now you are being absurd. I cited no sources. I mentioned three computers. what a surprise.

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-20 Thread Seymour J Metz
om: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 11:05 PM > Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? > > From: "Seymour J Metz" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-19 Thread Robin Vowels
..@dodo.com.au] Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 11:05 PM Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? From: "Seymour J Metz" To: Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 7:50 AM That's not enough to make it an array machine, any more than Table lookup made the 650 an array machine. You

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-19 Thread Seymour J Metz
22 11:05 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? From: "Seymour J Metz" To: Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 7:50 AM > That's not enough to make it an array machine, any more than Table lookup > made the 650 an array > mac

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-18 Thread Robin Vowels
17, 2022 10:42 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-17 23:31, Seymour J Metz wrote: Whoosh! How is a statement about 2's complement machines relevant to a statement about 1s' complement machines? You mean that you don't

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 10:42 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-17 23:31, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Whoosh! How is a statement about 2's complement machines relevant to a > statement abou

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 1:00 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? > I suspect that it goes b

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
Gilmartin [0014e0e4a59b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:03 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 6/17/22 11:00:30, Phil Smith III wrote: >> I suspect that it goes back farther. There was no concept of halfw

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Phil Smith III
Charles added: >Or maybe rather than halfword instructions, the architecture needs 53%word >instructions. You're being kind--clearly I need 53% of a brain!

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Charles Mills
@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? Charles Mills asked: >In what base is 19 half of 36? In the "It's Friday" base? OK, 262,144 and 131,072. /me tries to slap forehead, misses because head is shaking too fast. It's been a long week.

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On 6/17/22 11:00:30, Phil Smith III wrote: I suspect that it goes back farther. There was no concept of halfword at the time; it was all 36-bit words. Oooh, I like the idea of halfwords in that context-19 bits! Just think, we'd all know the numbers 524,288 and 262,144 like we know 32K and 64K.

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Phil Smith III
Charles Mills asked: >In what base is 19 half of 36? In the "It's Friday" base? OK, 262,144 and 131,072. /me tries to slap forehead, misses because head is shaking too fast. It's been a long week.

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Charles Mills
In what base is 19 half of 36? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [mailto:ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 10:01 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Phil Smith III
> I suspect that it goes back farther. There was no concept of halfword at the time; > it was all 36-bit words. Oooh, I like the idea of halfwords in that context-19 bits! Just think, we'd all know the numbers 524,288 and 262,144 like we know 32K and 64K...

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Robin Vowels
List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:57 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-17 19:02, Seymour J Metz wrote: I'm not aware of any serial 1s' complement or 2&#x

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:57 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-17 19:02, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I'm not aware of any serial 1s'

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On 6/17/22 02:54:31, Robin Vowels wrote: On 2022-06-17 18:04, Seymour J Metz wrote: FSVO serial. The early electronic machines that I'm aware of were parallel. FWIW, there were papers claiming that 1s' complement was simpler. Not in a serial machine. Was serial technology the motivation fo

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Robin Vowels
sembler List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:40 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? - Original Message - From: "Paul Gilmartin" <0014e0e4a59b-

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread dave . g4ugm
s truly amazing that working valve computers were produce in so many places Dave > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List > On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz > Sent: 17 June 2022 10:30 > To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: When did logical instr

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
f of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 4:38 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On 2022-06-17 18:20, Seymour J Metz wrote: > IBM was sign-magnitude in the 1950s, but CDC and UNIVAC inherited 1s' > compleme

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
2022 4:40 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? Seymour, (Hope that's ok) Many early machines were serial. The Manchester SSEM and it successors the Manchester MK1 and Ferrante MK1* were all serial, as was the Ferranti Pegasus. The mac

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] > on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:40 AM > To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? > > - Original Message - > From: "Paul Gilmartin

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Robin Vowels
com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:40 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? - Original Message - From: "Paul Gilmartin" <0014e0e4a59b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 7:20 AM On Jun

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread dave . g4ugm
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List > On Behalf Of Robin Vowels > Sent: 17 June 2022 09:39 > To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? > > On 2022-06-17 18:20, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread dave . g4ugm
attractive... Dave > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List > On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz > Sent: 17 June 2022 09:05 > To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? > > FSVO serial. The early electron

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Robin Vowels
On 2022-06-17 18:20, Seymour J Metz wrote: IBM was sign-magnitude in the 1950s, but CDC and UNIVAC inherited 1s' complement from ERA. I'm not sure what the first 2's complement machine was. EDSAC was working in 1949. It may not have been the first. Fr

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [0014e0e4a59b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 5:20 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On Jun 16, 2022, at 10:43:36, Robin Vowels wrote: > &g

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
du/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:40 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? - Original Message - F

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz
@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Robin Vowels [robi...@dodo.com.au] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:46 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? From: "Seymour J Metz" To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 1:07 AM > Unsigned binary arithmetic goes bac

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-17 Thread Abe Kornelis
Michael, all, in addition to all the replies already provided, I would like to point you to a page I created: https://bixoft.nl/english/opcodes.htm Kind regards & happy programming! Abe === Op 16/06/2022 om 16:36 schreef Schmitt, Michael: > My company's COBOL coding standards are* to define bin

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Robin Vowels
From: "Farley, Peter x23353" <0dc9d8785c29-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 12:55 AM There were already logical instructions as early as the 360 machine series. They were around even earlier: at least by 1951 such instructions existed. However, early COBO

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Robin Vowels
From: "Tom Marchant" <00a69b48f3bb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 12:58 AM ADD LOGICAL and SUBTRACT LOGICAL were part of the original System/360, and are documented in the A22-6821-0 edition of the System/360 Principles of Operation, as well as in "Archite

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Robin Vowels
From: "Seymour J Metz" To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 1:07 AM Unsigned binary arithmetic goes back at least to the 704 in 1955. I already said that it goes back to 1951, at least. I suspect that it goes back farther. There was no concept of halfword at the time; it was all 36-bit words.

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Robin Vowels
- Original Message - From: "Paul Gilmartin" <0014e0e4a59b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 7:20 AM Subject: Re: When did logical instructions appear? On Jun 16, 2022, at 10:43:36, Robin Vowels wrote: Computers have had instruction

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Gary Weinhold
u notify us by reply mail or telephone and delete the original message from your mail system. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Tom Marchant <00a69b48f3bb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> Sent: June 16, 2022 10:58 To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: W

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Jun 16, 2022, at 10:43:36, Robin Vowels wrote: Computers have had instructions for signed and unsigned binary since at least 1951.  When negative values are expressed using twos complement notation, ordinary addition will give the same result whether the operation is signed or unsigned. It

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Phil Smith III
Steve Smith (no known relation) wrote: >Every coding standard should document exactly why the standard exists, i.e. >what benefit it provides. That might help filter out, and allow for >updating, of some long-gone person's personal preferences (which is where >too many coding standards come from).

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Robin Vowels
On 2022-06-17 00:36, Schmitt, Michael wrote: My company's COBOL coding standards are* to define binary fields as signed (e.g. PIC S9(4) BINARY). I'm wondering why that's the standard. The original standards were developed at least 40-60 years ago. They were revised in 1994 but the signed binary

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Seymour J Metz
From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List [ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 10:36 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: When did logical instructions appear? My company's

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Binyamin Dissen
On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 14:36:12 + "Schmitt, Michael" wrote: :>My company's COBOL coding standards are* to define binary fields as signed (e.g. PIC S9(4) BINARY). I'm wondering why that's the standard. Because it takes extra instructions to get the absolute value. -- Binyamin Dissen http://ww

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Schmitt, Michael
. So that's a good point: with TRUNC other than TRUNC(BIN), 9(4) or S9(4) has the same maximum value. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List On Behalf Of Dave Clark Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 9:54 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: W

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Tom Marchant
ADD LOGICAL and SUBTRACT LOGICAL were part of the original System/360, and are documented in the A22-6821-0 edition of the System/360 Principles of Operation, as well as in "Architecture of the IBM System/360", published in the IBM Journal in April, 1964, which describes the reasoning for many o

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Farley, Peter x23353
an the non-vector versions and newer compilers are taking advantage of those instructions. HTH -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List On Behalf Of Schmitt, Michael Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 10:36 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: When did logical instructi

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Charles Mills
mbler List [mailto:ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Schmitt, Michael Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2022 7:36 AM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: When did logical instructions appear? My company's COBOL coding standards are* to define binary fields as signed (e.g. PIC S9(4) BINARY). I&

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Dave Clark
"IBM Mainframe Assembler List" wrote on 06/16/2022 10:36:12 AM: > Or it could be that whatever version of COBOL was used then (OS/VS > COBOL or earlier) was more efficient with signed binary, such as due > to the choices it made in instruction selection. My understanding, at least for

Re: When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Steve Smith
The logical instructions were in there from the get-go. I have no idea what the implications were or are for COBOL. Every coding standard should document exactly why the standard exists, i.e. what benefit it provides. That might help filter out, and allow for updating, of some long-gone person's

When did logical instructions appear?

2022-06-16 Thread Schmitt, Michael
My company's COBOL coding standards are* to define binary fields as signed (e.g. PIC S9(4) BINARY). I'm wondering why that's the standard. The original standards were developed at least 40-60 years ago. They were revised in 1994 but the signed binary guidance remained. One explanation could be