Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! This works with mp3. The position code is kinda wierd but yeah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471158/#p471158 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Are you refering to this? https://www.dropbox.com/s/et776nxx82hp0 … d.zip?dl=1CAE_Jones wrote:The fmodex wrapper does mp3. No idea if it's still online anywhere. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471152/#p471152 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! @18 i think you mean mci. This only has really poor wrapper which does literarely only supports play and stop. How ever, i think there was a dll reference for these somewhere, maybe i can find these again and if i manage to add the things i miss i will publish it here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471135/#p471135 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! @16, do you still have the fixxed camlorn audio? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471122/#p471122 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! The fmodex wrapper does mp3. No idea if it's still online anywhere. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471117/#p471117 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Use msi maybe? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471104/#p471104 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! I am not needing the reverb, i am more searching for a way to play mp3 using a 3d sound pool. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471102/#p471102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! I expect that's because of bugs in the camlorn_audio wrapper, where it tried to mix a sound_pool style positioning system with the camlorn_audio approach (CA is mostly just an openALSoft wrapper, tbc). I fixed this, and the new problems are mostly with reverb and eax effects.There's a fmodex wrapper somewhere. Unfortunately, reverb_properties is a struct, so you can't use those from BGT without an intermediate wrapper to map them to types BGT can access. I tried writing one, but my C compiler broke and refuses to fix itself, and tbh it's not worth it anyway. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471078/#p471078 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Honestly I don't understand the fixation with 3d audio. Maybe, fully utilized in another language it would be cool, but it just kinda sucked in Redspot and STW. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471058/#p471058 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! There is a wrapper but you might as well forget about the wrapper and write your own as I don't see anyone giving that wrapper out anytime soon. You should either make your own, or use python's wrapper around libaudioverse. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471046/#p471046 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! I would say ask mason, but well you kind of can't. I know he has it, though URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471039/#p471039 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Ok, does any one know where to find it? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471023/#p471023 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! There is, but good luck finding it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471005/#p471005 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Is there even a lav wrapper for bgt? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/471002/#p471002 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! It's on sam's sight I believe, but yeah, if you want this kind of thing, switch to python and use openal URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/470998/#p470998 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Is libaudioverse still supported? I thought, like Camlorn audio, it was discontinued. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/470992/#p470992 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Honestly its just a complete pile of trash. Camlern audio is so buggy and will just constantly crash on your computer all the time. I would recommend you switch to Libaudioverse, fmod, or switch to python and use openal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/470983/#p470983 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Hi. First, sorry for reviewing this topic but i think it's better then making a new one. Can someone please upload the updated version to something like fileconvoy? I get a 429 error in db. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/470968/#p470968 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? Not just that but... you can't have everything for free, you know. That's not how, and never will be how, life works. If I want to go get a refrigerator, I have to go buy it; I can't just walk in and take it. Everything has a cost that you need to pay. Nothing is free -- no matter if people claim it is -- it always costs something, whether that's monetary or not. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/423057/#p423057 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? Not just that but... ou can't have everything for free, you know. That's not how, and never will be how, life works. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/423057/#p423057 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? @14 and @15, I can't release it, as it's not only my code. You'll have to ask Sam Tupy if you want it that badly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/423017/#p423017 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? I think it would be nice to have but...they will probably never release it because...idk. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/422738/#p422738 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? @13, I would still like it.Best regardsT-m URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/422723/#p422723 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? Hi,LAV isn't really worth much anymore, due to it always constantly using at least 15% CPU and BGT's DLL support being crappy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/422399/#p422399 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? Well, I don't know of any 3d audio library yet. Sam and Mason should share the library with other developers.T-m URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421086/#p421086 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? There was a 3d sound engine with bass and fmodex going around few years ago. It was abandoned because of the limits of BGT's dll support, but if all you want is to position sounds in 3d, it works just fine. If the links still work, it's at the blastbay forums somewhere. If not ... give me a few days to upload it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421058/#p421058 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? 3d positioning or hrtf URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420833/#p420833 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? I have a perfectly fine way of creating 3d positioning in bgt. I'm using it in the small thingy I'm creating. So no bgt isn't horrible iwth 3d. It's horrible when it comes to online things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420830/#p420830 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? You're better off switching to another programming language for this kind of projects. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420801/#p420801 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? I think your better off not using bgt for 3d things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420755/#p420755 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? Guys. Soundpool3d and sound_positioning only have support for 3d positioning. I think charly is searching for something that supports hrtf. If yes, Then no. I mean there's nothing except camlorn's wrapper. As said, the libaudioverse wrapper is private between sam tupy and mason armstrong. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420753/#p420753 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? bgt's dll support is woefully incomplete. You're not going to find anything suitable URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420710/#p420710 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? No,libaudioverse is a private thing between him and Mason. There is no opensourced version of this for BGT. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420698/#p420698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? sam has a sounpool 3d and sound positioning thing, I think the other thing you mentioned in 1 has reverb support, lav is laggy and unballenced though, I wouldn't reccomend it, URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420685/#p420685 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt?
Re: 3d audio in bgt? try soundpool 3d URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420681/#p420681 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
3d audio in bgt?
3d audio in bgt? Hi,So i know about sam's kemlorn wrapper, but i believe he uses something else for rs / stw since it had the lav.dll, implying libaudioverse. I saw the same thing in sbyw. So is there any open source wrappers for libaudioverse, or at least anything that doesn't break as badly as kemlorn does? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420659/#p420659 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Yeah, I was surprised when I saw this topic without a dot on it.I don't have access to my computer with the files ATM, but if I have it in Dropbox or somesuch, I'll add the link to this post.Edit: Not sure if this is it, or if this is just the original. I know it's not the most recent version, based on the date.https://www.dropbox.com/s/48eu7n7fcm8ik … 0.zip?dl=0I might be able to link the .bgt files for a newer version, but I don't think that's the most recent (I'm pretty sure I copied the most recent to Dropbox, but it apparently hasn't synched since September).I've found that it's so buggy, hard to diagnose, and seemingly inconsistent (reinstalling windows caused the game I was using it with to hard crash, but the tests still work), that I'm hoping I can just make a dll for fmodex that makes the bits that are not available to BGT available to BGT. Of course, reinstalling Windows broke my C compiler somehow, and fixing that has been bothersome, so who knows at this point?Edit2: Actually, DB reports itself unable to generate links for the more recent Sound3d and buffered_sound_pool files. So not today, apparently. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/post/394573/#p394573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Yeah, I was surprised when I saw this topic without a dot on it.I don't have access to my computer with the files ATM, but if I have it in Dropbox or somesuch, I'll add the link to this post.Edit: Not sure if this is it, or if this is just the original. I know it's not the most recent version, based on the date.https://www.dropbox.com/s/48eu7n7fcm8ik … 0.zip?dl=0I might be able to link the .bgt files for a newer version, but I don't think that's the most recent (I'm pretty sure I copied the most recent to Dropbox, but it apparently hasn't synched since September).I've found that it's so buggy, hard to diagnose, and seemingly inconsistent (reinstalling windows caused the game I was using it with to hard crash, but the tests still work), that I'm hoping I can just make a dll for fmodex that makes the bits that are not available to BGT available to BGT. Of course, reinstalling Windows broke my C compiler somehow, and fixing that has been bothersome, so who knows at this point? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/post/394573/#p394573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Yeah, I was surprised when I saw this topic without a dot on it.I don't have access to my computer with the files ATM, but if I have it in Dropbox or somesuch, I'll add the link to this post. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/post/394573/#p394573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Hey there. So back before the forum kind of like...died for a few days someone had uploaded an update to this package. Can you please reupload it to the topic? Thanks URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/post/394570/#p394570 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! I am now watching these forums because I've gotten many separate inquiries about Libaudioverse; you will have nightly builds within the week, mostly because these have been along the lines of "How do I build it?".It can't be fully bound to BGT, but it does sound much, much better. The OpenALSoft HRTF makes some sacrifices because it was written in 2002. The metallic quality doesn't exist in Libaudioverse. Nor does the various problems with Hrtf randomly not working for some people because of sample rate issues, even moreso if you forget to bundle the 5 or 6 hrtf files and point Camlorn_audio at them correctly. It also does a lot more in the direction of synthesis and provides an occlusion model and a bunch of tools you can use to build your own effects from scratch.Your problems with binding it to BGT are simple and unfixable by any of us: getting objects to properly garbage collect requires using a callback that may be called from any thread and, unless BGT has something I don't know about, this will bring BGT crashing down very, very hard. If you want to use Libaudioverse with BGT, you'll need to write a thin wrapper over the C API and avoid anything that uses callbacks or events, but otherwise it's fine. You just can't abstract it to be a nice API in BGT because BGT is missing critically important features. Libaudioverse is designed to be bound, and it assumes a common subset of features that are common in mainstream tools and hides them from you via the bindings. Building a binding for BGT that is as easy to use as Libaudioverse can be in mainstream tools requires writing an additional C library that exposes it all on one thread, and I'm not going to be the one to do this.Libaudioverse is GPL, and I am currently not able to give exceptions. Libaudioverse may be commercial, and I haven't done the paperwork for GPL exceptions with a lawyer yet. The upshot of this is that your code is also covered by the GPL if you use it, and you therefore need to be willing to distribute source code. I'm not sure at this point if I can pull off a kickstarter, but Libaudioverse needs another year or so of development in order to be finished, rock solid, and have a strong community, and I need to get money for this somehow, even if it's over the next 5-year period as people buy it here and there. As I don't want to have to support it for the next 10 years of my life, I'm hoping the kickstarter can and will work. But it's usable for games and the first release will probably happen in the next month.The Github is here. The Github for camlorn_audio (as well as binaries from me) are all no longer available; the current version of Unspoken now uses Libaudioverse. I cannot and will not stop you if you have a DLL, I released it under the BSD license and you're following it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233208#p233208 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
Re: 3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Hello,I wouldn't recommend using Camlorn Audio, as I think Camlorn has superceeded it with something else. I unfortunately don't have any link on hand that shows where I saw it, but I definitely remember reading something about it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233201#p233201 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio!
3d audio in bgt using camlorn audio! Everyone, I wanted to share with you all the camlorn audio bgt wrapper I made, allowing you to have 3d audio in bgt that actually works with full hrtf positioning reverb and filters! If you remember, camlorn strongly suggests that he stopped developing camlorn audio for reasons that were related to something very unstable that crashes all the time. I figured it would be unfair for me not to throw his warning out there. He says it is devenatly not production quality. For a bit of closure, I got the later version of the camlorn dll actually from an NVDA addon that used it that was later than the one we'd tested everything with, and I can tell you that NVDA addon was in the public. If anyone has heard of unspoken, that's the one. The exact dll came from unspoken 0.1. Anyway that addon was in the public and worked for most people, and I am using that dll which is still camlorn audio. ANyway, this allows you to have 3d sounds, really good sounding reverb, and optional filters and echo if you wish to use them. I've been working for months on this and I got some help from Mason Armstrong who after I wrapped most of it, just finished some stuff for me which saved me a lot of time, then he wrote a lot of the documentation. Anyway, this thing actually works, theres been only 1 computer out of well, loads that I have scene this not work on. Again reason being that this was the exact dll from the unspoken addon. Anyway enough about me ranting about dll's and addons. This pack atempts to wrap this DLL in such a way, that it emulates the sound object in bgt, at least to the best of our ability. What i've tried it with scemes to work and any bug reports that I might be able to fix would be welcome. Some could be just camlorn audio it's self not fixable by me but if it's the wrapper or your not sure please let me know about them. Anyw ay with out further ado, theres a readme in there that explains more. Enjoy! Download from my developers page at http://www.samtupy.com/dev URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=233174#p233174 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
