Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions @15, I sent you a pm URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614882/#p614882 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions really arguing with you was pointless again. It wasn't accessible when I was doing my degree with the resources I had and was given I had also done my research the school refused to provide options to learn the matterial, so exemption was what the instructors offered, and what I accepted. The instructors of courses with a phonetics component had stated that being exempted from the symbols component would not put me at a disadvantage or allow me to gain less from the course, so that was the option I took. As for linguistics majors and graduate work, manually adding a bucketload of symbols is niether reasonable nor should it be expected. The issue is you suddenly have all symbols and diacritics as well as tonal tones for all possible languages. A blind person specializing in this is just asking for pain and unnecesary suffering. And again you accuse me of not doing enough. Know that I did all the research in my masters degree, and it is clearly evident that it can't reasonably be made accessible or learned to understand. As for syntax, brackets may be ok for simple syntax, but once you start getting extremely complex, they aren't viable. If yoiu have around 3 or more layers, it is just like math and you need a written medium that is not optional if you have any hope of understanding it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614808/#p614808 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions I have done it with brackets, and I am Not sure how is parsing relevant in this discussion but whatever now, if you have read my posts and arcadia's posts as well you would have known that of course there was ways to reproduce them, so I am quite done with that, I did not imply that anyone should specialize in phonetics, and it is not impossible actually but I do agree that it'll need an effort to label your own database of symbols. Anyway, what I am saying is this knowledge is necessary and clearly OP was having it as a part of a course or something and just getting introduced to it, so it is better for him to learn it instead of asking for an exemption. It is accessible, at least in his level, and in your bachelor degree it was too, I will not talk about master's since I haven't started my master yet, but I am sure if you want something you'll find how instead of finding how not. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614771/#p614771 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Another topic that you absolutely need diagrams is syntax classes. It can be done without drawing the physicial diagrams or not inspecting them. but you will be torturing yourself, and I am certain most blind would fail the class without tactile. I had to describe several syntactic trees for sentences in Turkish, which is one of the most difficullt languages ssyntactically which was one of the most difficult experiences in my life, both the preparation and the process itself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614753/#p614753 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions you are the one who refuses to listen not me. Quit talking down to me and treating me like an idiot. I am thankfully done with college now, so this is irrelevent, but I didn't have a brother available to me to help with this, and I did extensive research so your argument you never tried doesn't fly. I actually have commented on issues, as well as made my own on the NVDA github. Lets say I somehow got someone to label those symbols, I wouldn't be able to produce these, and remember I would have to learn what each symbol stood for. And I used a reader for the exam, so transcribing paragraphs to a reader would be a significant task. And the appropriate way to learn IPA is through braile, not a screen reader, or relabeled symbols. This is actually one of the few instances when braille is incredibly helpful and useful. Try teaching a sighted person phonetics with no visual cues and see how well they do. And relabeling is a massive task make no mistake. The international phonetic association has a document over 30 pages with all the symbols, many hundreds. From your writing, it is obvious you didn't do graduate study. In graduate study, the focus exclusively is on research, not exams. So all of the symbols are required. You don't just use specific ones. OCR again is very rellevent because when reading articles, especially digitized ones, you absolutely have to OCR. And I didn't have everything handed to me on a plate iether in the UK. The disability agency found a braille copy of phonetic symbols, but that isn't very helpful without knowing what phonemes those sounds stand for, and still leaves the article problem. So I am not saying a blind person should be exempt, it isn't a desirable outcome. But if the technology or resources aren't there, it should be the option. I am not saying a blind person shouldn' specialize in phonetics, but because of the IPA issues, especially with research, I think it would be better for a blind person to specialize in something like semantics or pragmatics which doesn't have these problems. Unless that said blind person enjoys working 24/7 or 10x as hard for the same outcome, or constantly needing assistants with articles. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614748/#p614748 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions @Togira sure, pm me with your email or whatsapp or skype, so that we can talk more else where.@13 That's funny you assumed things about me although I have stated totally the opposite, I think that is you who is not listening except your own opinion that this is inaccessible, that is too much work for poor blind people. as I stated, I did the labeling with my brother, with no external help from any disability office or assistant or anything. In fact, I did not have such privileges at all, nor do I actually live in a developed country, I live in Egypt, so good luck assuming that I had "everything handed to me on a silver plate". So with that out of the way, I am aware that several symbols exist as I have stated in my post, and that things might look the same so different people might use different symbols to refer to the very same symbol. However, if you do ask your teacher about what symbols they use specifically I am sure they will be willing to help you, specially that as far as I know you have taken your masters course in the UK where "everything should have been handed to you on a silver plate", and you most probably had an assistant, although I will not assume that, but you could have got the help of a sighted friend as well. While yes there are hundred of symbols but I am also a hundred% sure you would not use all of them in your course and your teachers can help with guiding you about what symbols would be used exactly, and if they are nice enough they can label them for you in the word document so you wouldn't need the sighted help. I am sure that they'd be consistent about the symbols they would use. and about OCR, that's not a valid point as exams are rather written digitally so I don't see where you'd use OCR here, don't tell me the university did not have a soft copy from the exams, I know people in Turkey who has done translation and they had soft copies from the exam, that should be the case in the UK as well. You just did not know/want to label them yourself as you stated because they are a lot, all what NVDA would have done is adding them to the default punctuation/symbols pronunciation just like they did with the math symbols, so please stop excuses, phonetics is something important and actually fun to do, and it would be very useful if a person would later decide to do computational linguistics, so we should rather encourage people to find alternatives ways instead of saying oh, it just doesn't work, get exempted from it.Anyway at this point I am starting to sound like a broken record because you do not listen, I've repeated at least 3 times that all what you need to do is a simple labeling but if you find that "inaccessible" then good luck finding accessible things in this life because I do not think you will find an accessible whatever that meets your accessibility standers. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614690/#p614690 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions i wonder if this could be done with latex? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614680/#p614680 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions 10, you still aren't listening. I actually did research to see if there were workarounds when I was taking these courses. And masters degrees are much more advanced than undergraduate classes. It just isn't a feasable stratigy to add the symbols when there a when there hundreds when we talk about other languages, as well as diacritics and remember OCR. A large number of these won't even read properly or come through on articles, even if you use the jaws dictionary, which I discovered later on. I still firmly believe braille is absolutely a requirement when learning the symbols and associated sounds, as well as easy transcription. I actually added my issues to NVDA to add support for these to read properly etc. But in my bachelor degree I didn't receive any support at all from the disability services, and the NVDA issue was ignored along with all the others I ever reported. Just because you may live in a developed part of the world for your education and have everything handed to you on a silver plate doesn't mean everyone else gets the same. Don't comment on my work ethic without knowing me at all iether. I am far from someone unwilling to do the work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614524/#p614524 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions 10, you still aren't listening. I actually did research to see if there were workarounds when I was taking these courses. And masters degrees are much more advanced than undergraduate classes. It just isn't a feasable stratigy to add the symbols when there a when there hundreds when we talk about other languages, as well as diacritics and remember OCR. A large number of these won't even read properly or come through on articles, even if you use the jaws dictionary, which I discovered later on. I still firmly believe braille is absolutely a requirement when learning the symbols and associated sounds, as well as easy transcription. I actually added my issues to NVDA to add support for these to read properly etc. But in my bachelor degree I didn't receive any support at all from the disability services, and the NVDA issue was ignored along with all the others I ever reported. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614524/#p614524 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions There is a Braille ipa, but I rarely used it. I mostly just used the jaws or nvda character dictionaries. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614518/#p614518 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions @10, very interesting. I am currently taking english as my major, got phonetics class and struggling with it. May I contact you privately and talk about what you did in detail there? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614489/#p614489 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Braille is not a requirement, not really, it might be easier to some people yeah, and I have no clue if there is a braille IPA, but I know that once you label the symbols then they're accessible to you just like your sighted colleagues, so no I don't agree that they're inaccessible, we can even make an addon or dictionary to make them readable I believe that should be too easy. But the alternative way is to label them manually, and I would trust this more since the teacher will be giving you the list of symbols they use, that way you wouldn't get something that is not labelled.I have transcribed whole paragraphs myself in the exams and I did not use the extra time which I had the right to.Saying they're not natively accessible that's just unwillingness to work, I am sorry, there is a quite easy work around, and most teachers actually are willing to accommodate our needs as blind students, not to say that there are no unhelpful teachers but the general majority is helpful.Actually that's probably a good addon project, I'll see if my python course will be good enough to allow me to create such an addon for NVDA, or at least do a dictionary or something if that fails. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614455/#p614455 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions sorry, but unreadable symbols means they are inaccessible. I am not saying it isn't possible for a blind person to do this, but the resources wern't there. Braille certainly is a requirement and sighted assistance. The school refused to provide braille, and any resources to make that aspect of the course accessible iether. Same for my masters degree. Good luck picking phonemes out of an article you just OCRed after stripping the protection. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614448/#p614448 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions sorry, but unreadable symbols means they are inaccessible. I am not saying it isn't possible for a blind person to do this, but the resources wern't there. Braille certainly is a requirement and sighted assistance. The school refused to provide braille, and any resources to make that aspect of the course accessible iether. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614448/#p614448 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Well come on, it is not a totally inaccessible program they are just unreadable symbols, but all screen readers do allow you to add symbols, or at least have a dictionary, a sighted friend can well help with such labeling then you wouldn't need any help from anyone, I do not see a reason for us to be exempt, specially if the college assign to you an assistant, which did not happen at all in my college but just saying if you're lucky to have one, they can help with setting up this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614377/#p614377 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions I unfortunatly didn't find a way to make these accessible, and didn't have the support in my bachelors degree, so I was exempted from the transcription part of the courses, and graded on the other parts. In my masters degree, I chose to be assessed from the other courses, rather than phonology. The way it worked was you had to do assignments from three out of the four. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614213/#p614213 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Yeah I actually always got the full mark in transcription. I see we basically did the same thing differently. I am betting your colleagues/teachers were using the same symbols you used, so that was great.I did not know about the keyboard though, I have studied linguistics in french and as I said I have just showed the symbols I need to my brother and we were selecting them from the word IPA symbols, great to know there is a dedicated keyboard that must make a more unified system. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614196/#p614196 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Hello. I attempted transcription nearly 10 years ago. At this time, I had to download something called doulos sil font to make the computer display the symbols correctly. I hear many of them are now incorperated in the ascii character database though. I also needed to download the ipa keyboard and enable it in the keyboard and language settings. this was in the control panel at that time. This keyboard appears as an added keyboard under the Icelandic language. I also downloaded a symbol set to make jaws read all the ipa symbols, though I have discovered that with some naming differences, espeak with nvda can read most of them as well. I used this software stack to get through my bachelor's and master's in linguistics. My transcriptions were hideous I'm sure, but my teachers could at least see I tried, and I could usually read other people's transcriptions as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614171/#p614171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions I had to do phonetic transcription in my linguistics course, I actually enjoyed it, it was a bit hard at the beginning to set it up but doable. You need support from your teacher anyway, or a sighted person.So what you'd do is, ask your teacher to send you all the symbols they'd personally use and that would be included in any quiz/questions/whatever. You do need to ask your teacher about that because in google and even just the symbols box in office there are too many available and similar symbols. When I have done this with my brother, we chose something that did look right, the teacher did accept it, however her symbols were different than mine, so it created a problem, because basically what you have to do is add the symbols in the NVDA Punctuation/symbols pronunciation. And as you may have guessed, I knew my symbols but her symbols were not readable for me.Bye the way I created shortcut to the symbols in word,, so they'll need to test you on your own computer, fortunately my teacher was understanding. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614079/#p614079 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions Thanks, that's what i've been thinking too, i tried lots of things, nothing worked. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614071/#p614071 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions
Re: Phonology seminar, quick questions I study linguistics and I can say that I haven't really found anything useful to read IPA. A temporary solution is to ask the professor if it is possible to get the materials in a form that excludes IPA or any similar codes. This worked for me in the past, but I didn't get very good grades because of this. I passed anyways. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614060/#p614060 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Phonology seminar, quick questions
Phonology seminar, quick questions Hey all,I just need to take a phonology seminar this semester. Do any of you used or use transcription, and how do you transcribe if you are blind? I've an issue with the current british english transcription system, more widely known as cube. How do you make these random symbols read by your screen reader?Thanks for the answers. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/614035/#p614035 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
