For those interested:
http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/news-media/Events/Airbus-Perlan-Mission-2.
html
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From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 31 August 2015 6:57 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring]
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/search-for-crashed-light-plane
-in-wa/story-e6frfku9-1227327992249
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news, but...
Sent from my iPhone
On 30 Apr 2015, at 12:57 pm, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/search-for-crashed-light-plane
-in-wa/story-e6frfku9-1227327992249
Not a failure as such. But I did do a flight in a club aircraft with only an
airspeed indicator, altimeter and a radio functional. I knew that was all
that was working at take-off though. I flew in thermals for over an hour.
Fortunately the launch before mine marked a thermal for me.
Follow the link.
http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/news-media/Key-Documents/FORUM-magazine.ht
ml
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G'day Graham
I posted the original request.
Fortunately no-one responded with the 'Bunnings Aerospace' answer. ; )
I understand the specs required and SAGA has an arrangement in place with
Coventry Fasteners for the supply of these to SA owners.
My problem is with the shank
Hi all
Has anyone been able to download the latest version (Issue 3) of the Design
Approval Procedures Manual from the GFA web site yet? Or is it not yet
released?
Regards
Anthony
5. Design Approvals Procedures Manual (DAPM)
Mike Burns has concluded a contract under
at thermalling speeds/bank, at my
usual cruise speeds.
Cheers,
WPP
On 9 Mar 2015, at 18:38, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:
Adam
I have done it on the wing tip of a large military aircraft.
Wing loading is only a problem if you have
Adam
I have done it on the wing tip of a large military aircraft.
Wing loading is only a problem if you have a particular issue that is wing
loading related. In essence what are you looking for? Is it Reynolds
Number related or is it Angle of Attack related? Or both?
Wool lengths need to be
Does anyone have a supplier for aircraft spec metric bolts - particularly
6mm diameter?
Examples of bolt part numbers would be:
EN2859-060XXX, or
NA0036-060XXX (where XXX is the shank length)
regards
Anthony
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Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tube rivets
Suggest contact Katja at Scheibe but can say when removed the tubes have zero
rust have the original zinc Chromate in every case. 30 yrs ago we sampled
one used HT bolt through the centre of tube
Ian mcphee
On 30/01/2015 12:42 PM, Anthony Smith anthony.sm
Of Anthony Smith
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 16:49
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
You probably could do something very easily for modern non-flapped gliders.
AoA indicators have been around for a long time. You could have three
Actually, I was thinking a flush mounted static probe rather than a pitot.
It would be interesting to see if a transducer could pick up the pressure
fluctuations from separated flow and be able to see the difference from
attached flow.
After doing some work with the RAAF's P-3 wing tips, I am
Bergfalke IV decays into a spiral dive unless pro spin controls are held. If
you hold pro spin controls, it still decays into a spiral dive after three or
so rotations.
Bocian used to stay in a spin until positive recovery controls were applied.
Cath Conway told me way back when that
Being Pawnee's they both would be 'sweaters' on a hot day.
-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
opsw...@bigpond.net.au
Sent: Sunday, 14 December 2014 4:27 PM
To: Discussion of issues
It starts to sound like the old joke of the modern airliner only having a pilot
and a dog in the cockpit. The pilots job is to feed the dog. The dog is there
to bite the pilot if he tries to touch the controls.
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
The Discus was the first to explore a new concept in glider design.
Previously designers had tried to provide a very wide laminar drag bucket from
min sink through to VNE (or thereabouts).
The Discus designers decided to optimise the airfoil from around min sink speed
to a reasonable
.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Discus - was 20M gliders
Very Interesting.
Do we know what characteristics of the airfoil lead the narrow drag bucket?
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:
The Discus
A list of possible suspects
http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/us/
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Staniforth
Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014 12:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
Airbus?
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Staniforth
Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014 12:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.
Still hoping it
Sounds like a business opportunity doesn't it?
These people get the foam in a large billet, and will cut you a piece to
the size and thickness required. From memory, their price was NOT
competitive, but that was years ago - maybe they now do a better deal?
http://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5108825f2162ef0e303871d5
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://www.freewebs.com/vintageglidersqld/apps/photos/photo?photoid=45705473
On 09/02/2014, at 3:49 PM, Anthony Smith wrote:
http://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5108825f2162ef0e303871d5
br
div___/div
divAus-soaring mailing list/div
divAus-soaring
Believe it or not, in the late 90's I had a sextant in a case under my desk.
It was standard issue for a certain large maritime patrol aircraft. We were
in the process of upgrading the aircraft to include GPS. I needed the
sextant to as a reference to calculate the change in weight and balance.
Hi all
I need to purchase (or otherwise acquire) two relatively small pieces of 9mm
thick laminated birch (aircraft grade). If you have some that you are
willing to sell or know of a supplier, please let me know off list.
Regards
Anthony
P.S. I tried to send this message a day
A point to note is that plywood has alternating layers where the grain is at
90 degrees (or some other angle layup as specified).
The laminated birch timber that I am after has all the layers with the grain
in the same direction.
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
Out of curiosity, did you try any performance measurement before and after
adding the vent?
Anthony
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam Woolley
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013 6:04 AM
To: Discussion of issues
Some other reading on the topic
http://www.streckenflug.at/shop/images/dynafoam_freeflight.pdf
http://www.spina-bac.biz/yankeeromeo/DSI/foam_ostiv.pdf
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Morgan
Sent:
Robert
I can make some enquiries for you. Some very rough answers:
1.Defence stores Jet A-1 (that is A one) for years in bulk supply
tanks. It is a heavier fuel and takes an awful long time for the lighter
constituents to evaporate away (flash point increases as a result). They
-
Fuel fungus is an issue if any moisture gets into the storage drum and grows on
the fuel water interface. Will block fuel filters very quickly and resembles a
fine filament.
-
Research 'Cladosporium Resinae' and 'Pseudomonas Aeruginosa'. Defence uses an
additive called FSII (fuel
for the 10min test.
Ian M
On 8 July 2012 09:35, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:
Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from
lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring.
No from not caring. I still cared and wanted
It is unlikely that the RAAF will do a run for the general public (due to
liability issues).
Last time I enquired at Edinburgh, the answer was no.
You can try asking then again though.
-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from
lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring.
No from not caring. I still cared and wanted to put the mask back on. My
experience was the complete inability to get my brain from A to
Personally, I foresee a future where we will all have some form of compulsory
collision avoidance system. I think that it is unavoidable (pardon the joke).
I subscribe to the view that we would be much better off to get ourselves
(gliders) sorted out now. That way we have some “hope” of
Air into the cockpit must equal air out.
If you are ramming air into the cockpit and do not have a suitable exit,
where does it go? Predominantly out around the edges of the canopy and
worse still along through the wing roots and out the air brake box. In
'very bad' examples it is the
...@lists.internode.on.net] ON BEHALF OF
Anthony Smith
SENT: Tuesday, 5 June 2012 7:43 PM
TO: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is
there something to it?
Air into the cockpit must equal air out
Hi all
Does anyone have the contact details for Mike Burns?
Alternatively, contact details for another glider friendly approved CAR 35
engineer?
Regards
Anthony
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To check or
A quick question for those involved with welded steel tube fuselages:
When designing / fabricating repairs, what reference / repair design
document do you refer to? As an example repairs carried out in accordance
with X?
Private replies are welcome. Particularly interested in anything
For what it is worth, I received correspondence from 'Marsh' suggesting I
consider them for a quote for aviation insurance. This arrived at the same
time as the OAMPS renewal. I had already completed the renewal for OAMPS
and have not investigated further.
I have the contact details for
Presumably he was over unlandable terrain and out of options. With a real
risk of injury if he stayed in the cockpit, it was probably best to bail
out.
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of MIKE
BORGELT
Sent:
The article quotes the road that the gliding club is on (as shown on google
earth). It appears the glider may have come down in the only significant
patch of trees for some distance..
Having successfully put foot in mouth, I should check google earth more
often.
From:
I saw the original replica at Duxford - unfortunately in a de-rigged state.
However I was always under the impression from Paul Reid's book that the
aircraft was intended as a two seater. The original pilot was to be Douglas
Bader and his pax was to be Winston Churchill's nephew (it was
A random question for a wet evening in Adelaide.
Does anyone have experience of the condition of the Wilcannia to Bourke Rd
(via Tilpa and Louth) in NSW? Particularly interested if it is simply
quicker and easier to go via Cobar (yes, glider trailer will be attached to
car).
Please reply
Not necessarily. A range of high intensity LED strobes are coming into the
market. An example is:
http://www.aeroleds.com/
It may soon be feasible to run a pair of wing tip strobes off a second
battery for aircraft operating in high traffic areas.
From:
Hi all
I am in the middle of a 40 yearly for GZQ. I am looking at purchasing some
lengths steel tube from Germany: in particular metric sizes of 1.0308 (ST
35) and 1.7214 (4130 Chrome Moly) which are more difficult to source here in
Oz. This will be particularly suited to Motorfalkes,
The artificial horizon (AH) will only tell you if you are climbing or
descending. It works on the direction you are travelling in.
Most larger aircraft will have an angle of attack device, either a
vane or probe, mounted on either side of the nose. This can be used in
a
I do recall the big mouse plague at Lochiel some time ago. GZM took off and
as it rotated into full climb on the first launch, mice were bailing out
from the main and tail wheels.
I am generally against widespread use of poison for two reasons:
1. Once it is out of the packet you cannot
Must be time for some Blanik bashing surely?
On Tue 17/05/11 3:07 PM , tom.wilk...@internode.on.net sent:
We are unlikely to change this by talking about
it - so can we please talk about something else now?
Wombat
Hey Wombat, just because you write a reasoned post doesn't
If I had music playing I would lose the functionality of my audio
altimeter.
(Justine is quite talkative at altitude - particularly at 10,000 ft.
The conversation diminishes with decreasing altitude till she is
absolutely silent whislt I grovel away looking for a save.
Windmills of your mind was featured in the re-make as well
On Fri 15/04/11 12:19 PM , Terry tfneum...@internode.on.net sent:
Windmills of your mind is an obvious. If you are
over 40, you will probably know why (hint - think Steve McQueen).
Terry
(Presently in Canberra - gee
J did have a camera, but she was so entranced by the rope she forgot to take
the pic!
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher
Mc Donnell
Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2011 6:23 PM
To:
If it was 8k and above the airfield and they were observing it on radar,
why could they not bring a/c under it?
- Have to allow for the tow ropes for the horses to drag the zeppelin
along..
-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
Hi all
The Bergfalke is having a major refurbishment at the moment and I need to
find a fin mount for a TE tube.
The existing one is fitted at the wrong angle and it looks like I need to
destroy it in order to remove it.
regards
Anthony
___
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ON MON 24/01/11 9:50 AM , DMCD slutsw...@gmail.com SENT:
It's a shame because the idea of flying in a modern primary and
thermalling on a puff has a lot of attractions.
D
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There's a challenge!
Gull wings do have a slight aerodynamic advantage - when applied properly!
But they also have a weight and cost penalty. The advantage in aerodynamics
is not huge, but it is there.
As a generalization: for a roughly circular fuselage, you should get
minimum
Yes.
The mathematics for a 2D wing (ie planar wing) resolve down to minimum
induced drag is for an elliptical planform (Supermarine Spitfire being the
all time classic example). The downwash behind such a wing in theory is
uniform across the span (and therefore it has a uniform CL too across the
I would need to see a couple of pics and see. A bit of data would also help
eg weight increase from the pregnancy and how much faster does it cruise.
It is possible that there is some kind of separation issue under the wing
adjacent to the fuse that was magically fixed / reduced by the wider
Personally, I wouldn't hold a lot of hope for the poor old L-13.
Eddy current testing through other layers of metal to detect cracks is
difficult (and you will need specialist gear and probably a specialist
operator). A lot of operators of old aircraft (particularly Oz Dept of
Defence and
Hi Bernard
I had a look through Fred Thomas: Fundamentals of Sailplane Design as well
as Frank Irving: The paths of Soaring Flight. For once I think Frank Irving
explained it better!
Ultimately the best speed to fly is proportional to the square root of the g
load as we discussed on the phone.
Er.. I know Rolf is TIC here but unfortunately the computer doesn't
insert the required miracle in time. See media reports of an Oz
Defence Force UAV which crashed in Canada a little while ago with a
trainee operator driving it.
On Thu 30/09/10 3:28 PM , rolf a. buelter
I am told that it does indeed spin.
I am told that initial testing showed that the forces/motions applied
to the cockpit had to be moderated so that the pilot was not subjected
to undue strain (ie not flung out of the sim).
On Thu 30/09/10 12:29 PM , Mike Borgelt
Hi all,
Many years ago I bought a copy of Performance Enhancement of Modern
Sailplanes by Peter Masak. Since then I have regularly loaned it to
interested parties (most likely at the coaching week at Waikerie).
At the moment it is not in my library. If you did happen to borrow it from
me and
Which reminds me of a rather famous quote from one night at the Adelaide Uni
GC shed at West Beach:
Redmond, where do you go to get felt?
-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of David
Conway
FWIW I use a couple of different tapes:
- Short term use ie a few months (eg wing roots) I use the Bowlus
tape from Bruce Taylor.
- Long term use ie 12 months or more, I use 3M type 471 tape. The 3M
stuff is available from most packaging distributors and can
Gary
Whilst at uni, a bloke in the year above me researched the glide ratio of Sugar
Gliders. He used dead specimens collected from assorted zoos across Australia
that were frozen in their gliding posture. During his final presentation he
told the story that during his study, he had a lot
Out of interest Mike, out of your little EEA group that are ex-glider
pilots, what kind of flying are they doing now in their ultralights /
homebuilts? Local flying, cross-country / touring???
On Wed 25/08/10 5:31 PM , Mike Borgelt
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent:
At 03:15 PM
It must be difficult at this time of the year airspace wise, as there
is an airshow on almost every weekend somewhere in the country during
the summer holiday season. The quantity of NOTAMs or equivalent must
be staggering.
J and I did a holiday over there some years
The initiative of a cheap flight data recorder is good. Given the profusion
of Flarm and other flight data loggers (which collect most of the parameters
you want anyway), what you really want is a cheap fatigue meter.
The problem you will face is that the principal cost in a fatigue
See http://www.sylacaugasoaring.com/SZD%20COBRA%20WARNING.htm
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter
Stephenson
Sent: Saturday, 14 August 2010 9:25 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Mike
Do you have a copy of Barnaby Wainfan's article that explains his
opinions? I wouldn't mind a peruse as I am sure that I can come up
with a few arguments to the contrary.
Anthony
On Thu 29/07/10 9:13 AM , Mike Borgelt
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent:
A hero of the technological era of aviation.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/black-box-inventor-david-warren-dies-at-85/story-e6frg95x-1225895120709
[1]
Links:
--
[1]
I had a brief peruse of it last night as well. Did it mention what
percentage of flights / hours were TIFs / AEFs or did I miss that
part?
On Wed 31/03/10 12:47 PM , gavin wrigley gavi...@hotmail.com sent:
Worthwhile reading.
Of interestthe BGA 'Basic' instructor rating requires
Hi all,
The Adelaide Uni GC is interested in acquiring a second hand B40 vario
(functioning) and perhaps a second hand mechanical vario (also functioning).
If you have either of the above, please contact me off list with an offer.
Merry Christmas
Anthony
I do recall once seeing an SZD Pirat which had very large areas of
flouro orange on it. It was eye watering up close. You certainly could
positively identify it from a long way away.
Despite having bright or obvious markings, you still need to look
out. One of the (less
http://www.eads.net/1024/en/businet/airbus/airbus_commercial_aircraft/airbus_press_releases/press/press/20091115_airbus_air_new_zealand_sharklet.html
[1]
For those interested in winglets and the like
Links:
--
[1]
Bah! There are no Bergfalkes! (At least it saves me from making up and
painting little naked pilots to make the model complete).
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
bb...@internode.on.net
Sent: Tuesday, 27
Why not. There have been a number of examples of the opposite, with
pilots flying without clothing in the altogether.
On Thu 08/10/09 2:51 PM , Texler, Michael
michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au sent:
We could always go retro.
The Adelaide Uni Gliding Club started life as the Adelaide
Strange as it may seem, that is one Bergfalke rating that I have not
achieved.
Of course in my case I would insist on it being mutual naked
Bergfalke pilots. Just gotta make sure that all the prickles are
removed from the cushions first.
On Fri 09/10/09 1:19 PM ,
Yes.
Of course it is also a new use for those 'Remove Before Flight'
tags.
On Fri 09/10/09 1:48 PM , Derek Ruddock derek.rudd...@optus.com.au
sent:
That’s the type of flight where you have to debriefing before the
actual flight I suppose J
Systems like this are offered as 'options' on several large
airliners. Most airlines don't bother with it though. The low uptake
of such technology by the airline companies suggest that there are
either some hidden problems or, more likely, ongoing costs that make
it prohibitive.
The deciding factor is always the cost per payload or cost per
performance factor.
The big question will be whether the S15 is able to undercut the
price of similar systems by using an already certified airframe. The
next question will be whether it can perform as well with
Hi all
My stupid question for the month (mostly because Redmond and myself have
been too busy to ask the authorities) to the collective:
Is there a minimum age requirement for a DI rating? If so, what is it?
Reply to: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
Thanks
Thanks to all. The answer is 15 and a solo pilot. Looks like a 14 year old
I know will be disappointed for a while longer.
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony
Smith
Sent: Friday, 8 May 2009 6:32 PM
Back onto the original topic:
A very quick perusal of the comments on the DG website illustrate
that they were quite concerned over the risk of electric shock. My
thoughts are:
If the battery pack is in the fuselage you do not have to disconnect
/ connect high DC voltage
Hi all
Could Peter Champness kindly get in touch with me?
Alternatively, does someone have his current e-mail address (I only have an
old ozemail address for him)
Thanks
Anthony
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To
It depends on what variety of Teflon tape you are after and for what
purpose.
I know I can get a wide variety of different tapes through Armstrong
Packaging at Port Adelaide. I suspect any major packaging supplier could do
the same.
For a gliding specific product, eg the Teflon wear tape for
BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
The figures for the Bergy in that spreadhseet are definitely wrong at
the low speed end, but probably more accurate at the high speed end.
I haven't found where the data for that aircraft in the Polar10
BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
The real catch here is that the simulator must accurately reflect the
performance and handling of the aircraft under the circumstances.
A link back to Mike Borgelt's comment on the RAAF doing the double
The Mountain High cyclinders normally come with some form of US
Department of Transport (DoT) approval (mine did). This should keep
you out of trouble with at least the US airlines. If you have a copy
of the paper work with you, it will help with the other airlines if
you are queried.
Dion
You could get her to talk to Tony Bernardo at Australian
Aerospace at RAAF Edinburgh.
Aust Aero (Edn) may be able to offer her a week of work
experience. High school students typicall get to cover the
range of activities carried out here including: work on the
hangar floor with a P-3,
Dion
Actually the website is pretty average. You / she can have
a chat to me about Australian Aerospace if you like by
e-mail or at work on 08 8393 3319.
Anthony
Dion
You could get her to talk to Tony Bernardo at Australian
Aerospace at RAAF Edinburgh.
Aust Aero (Edn) may be able to
Hi Glenn
Regretably, as far as I know, the RAAF do not (or can not) arrange for
week long work experience as requested by Dion. They do arrange for 1
day visits for potential ADFA recruits regularly though and these are
worth attending. The Air Force Cadets also have regular camps and so
Anyone tried talking to European clubs where the fuel costs are (or
were) higher than here?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
Dorning
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 11:51 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring]
More likely that the heat from the exhausts will increase
the thermal strength.
Note that a moderately loaded P-3 will be trying to thermal
at 160 kts or so and a turn radius of approx 490 m (about 10
times the turn radius of the Boomerang that Cath was
presumably flying).
Yes the wake
Hi all
I am looking to acquire two lengths of zig zag turbulator
tape for a work project. Must be at least 700mm in length
each. If anyone has a couple of suitable off-cuts that they
are willing to sell me, would they please contact me off
list?
regards
Anthony
From what I know:
Some of the surface technology revolves around either grooves, riblets
or fibres to channel the boundary layer around a body in a particular
way (believe it or not there was even a trial of swimmers who shaved or
didn't shave their body hair - the result was that body hair could
Whilst I know the e-mail was tongue in cheek: a pig or dog
trailer refers to the design of the trailer.
I think that a pig trailer has a central set of axles and
a drawbar that carries the balance load of the trailer.
A dog trailer has a set of steerable wheels at the front
and fixed at the
Well recent experience seems to show that handicaps can work quite well
under particular conditions.
The Easter Regatta at Gawler featured a DG-1000 versus a Bergfalke 4 -
the only two seaters in the regatta.
The Bergy 4 won on the Saturday on handicap by a small margin. The
DG-1000 pipped
http://www.mysubaru.com.au/symmetry/adventure1.htm
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