I do believe what ever Baha'u'llah penned was the Words of God. His Person being the Supreme Manifestation of God. But at the same time He had a physical body with many physical limitation very similar to ours. When He says that He is in pain, that may not be the Word of God that He is expressing
Then wouldn't we be more like Islam and only regard specific Writings
written in a certain state as revelation, rather than anything that issued
from Baha'u'llah's Pen?
I do believe what ever Baha'u'llah penned was the Words of God. His Person
being the Supreme Manifestation of God. But at the sam
"It might be as well just during the revelation that Baha'u'llah is divine
and He is the Voice of God.and when He says I am Omniscient, in fact I
refers to God."
Dear Firouz,
Then wouldn't we be more like Islam and only regard specific Writings
written in a certain state as revelation, rather tha
Firouz:
[" My understanding of Omniscient in Law-i-Hikmat refers to His divine
station. Baha'u'llah in His Divine station is God and Omniscient but in
His
Physical station He had His physical limitations similar to all of us.
That's why He read books and newspapers."
Susan:
Yeah, but what does tha
[" My understanding of Omniscient in Law-i-Hikmat refers to His divine
station. Baha'u'llah in His Divine station is God and Omniscient but in His
Physical station He had His physical limitations similar to all of us.
That's why He read books and newspapers."
Yeah, but what does that mean in rea l
Firouz:
" Could
omniscience of Manifestation of God be at spiritual level only but not physical
level? "
Susan:
Dear Firouz, I would certainly feel more comfortable if this was the
case, but that doesn't appear to be what Baha'u'llah is saying in the Lawh-i
Hikmat at all. It also does not
" Could omniscience of Manifestation of God be at
spiritual level only but not physical level? "
Dear Firouz,
I would certainly feel more comfortable if
this was the case, but that doesn't appear to be what Baha'u'llah is saying in
the Lawh-i Hikmat at all. It also does not appear to re
In studying the Writings, we should not take a single verse on its
own, but rather take a wide selection of the writings.
Dear Firouz,
I would take this to mean that sometimes Baha'u'llah accessed books
supernaturally and other times He did so the old fashion way. In other words,
most o
In a message dated 12/29/2004 8:34:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In studying the Writings, we should not take a single verse on
its own, but rather take a wide selection of the writings.
Dear Firouz,
I would take this to mean that sometimes Baha'u
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25
A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I wonder why no one
> has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i
> Communities there?
I went to
Feast last night, and we read letters from the NSA’s of Thailand and Malay
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I wonder
why no one > has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are
Baha'i > Communities there?
I'm sure there are. What I'm wondering is if there are any SEDs in those
areas which mi
Yes, hello , Elaine,
I am very familiar with your account of your conversion, from your web
site. It is the most moving Baha'i conversion account I have ever read.
By all means, I recommend that anyone who has not read your account, do
so at your web site http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html
I
"My friend, the late Ruhiyyih McComb (originally, Muset Montana Jones), who
was named by `Abdul-Baha when she was 8 or 9 years old, said that
`Abdu'l-Baha spoke with her in English several times."
Yes, He had at least a decent amount of conversational English. There are
several instances of conver
Susan,
At 04:50 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote:
>>I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to
>>understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the
>>time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been
>>more of a problem.
Dear Ron,
I was 35 when I embraced the Faith. I was a seeker after transcendence
since I was 12 or maybe 15. I tell the story of my conversion on my
web-site.http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html
Unlike most of the Baha'is I know, I came to the faith through a series
of visionary experiences.
In a message dated 12/30/2004 5:49:34 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
RS:
<> Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an
interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one?
<>Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter
?
Dea
Mark wrote:
> When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings
> (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final
> Judgement?
As I recall, their teachings were pretty traditional. We didn't talk about
Satan much. The focus was on service.
Dave Lambert
If I'm not mistaken, a similar thing is reported in Dr. Afrukhtih's "Nine years
memoirs" of Akka.
Are any of Cobb's books on-line?
Regards,
Ahang.
--- Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> " for
> instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind,
> i do nopt thhink
In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:46:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"There
is one other condition which should be mentioned. There arecertain
former Bah whose actions do not necessarily constituteCovenant-breaking,
but are seriously destructive. Where such pe
>> Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you
>> converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. The other
>> thing I keep wondering about is certainty. I freely admit, I have little
>> certainly about anything. I really am amazed at the degree of cer
Brent,
At 06:50 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote:
>>There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's
>>books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked "Do you know
>>everything" to which He replied "No, but when I need to know something it
>>appears before me as on a m
Hi, Dave,
At 08:42 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote:
>>I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation
>>Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult
>>books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever
>>met.<<
When
>>Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in
your mind about why you
converted. What was the thing that grabbed
you adn convinced you.<<
I was raised
in a mainstream Protestant church, and never found it satisfying. I spent many
years exploring various religions. I was a Quaker fo
" for
instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind,
i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He chose that phrase
and image to try to communicate His reality to us."
There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's
books, I don't reca
Dear Brent,
On this point I would disagree with you...; if you are saying
"Baha'u'llah did not see a Maiden" and I believe that is what
you are saying.
Shoghi Effendi does not say the "images" were symbols conjured
up by the Manifestations to relate Their experience. He says
the "images" were
SC: <>To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to
express His Will through a "human" Mouthpiece, as were all His
Manifestations, is to deny all Creation. <>
RS: How so?
Inspite of all our [human] observations and subsequent
replications of principles in Creation it only serves to
remind
>>Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you.<<
I was raised as a Catholic, and had no interest in changing my religion,
at the time I first heard of the Baha'i Faith. A friend in my college dormitory
told m
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ron Stephens
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 10:57 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
" but He chose that phrase
and image to try to communicate H
Hi, Ron,
At 10:47 PM 12/29/2004, you wrote:
>>Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you
>>converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you.<<
I was a fourteen-year-old kid. For whatever reason, I had a kind of inner
knowing that Baha'u'llah's Propheti
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you
converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced
you.
Dear Ron,
I was very young when I became a Baha'i. When I read Release the Sun and
compared it with the Gospels it seemed to me that it was the same st
On Dec 29, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:
"Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective
available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for
instance, the famous passage where Baha'u'llah sees tablet in His mind,
i do not think He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He
Thank you Brent for that exhaustive list. it is very helpful, and
reminds me how much detail Baha'u'llah went into in the Iqan.
My mind has often been reflecting back to when i declared (almost 10
years ago now) and as I recall, the Iqan was the pivotal book for me.
As I have indicated, Baha'u'
"Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective
available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for
instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind,
i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He chose that phrase
and image to try to communi
Yes, it seems to me there is usually more than one perspective
available form the Writings on a given topic. I like that. for
instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind,
i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He chose that phrase
and image to try to communic
I think what Baha'u'llah means in the Lawh-i Hikmat, it clearly
is not that he just had to close his eyes and He could see or read
what He wanted to know. Baha'u'llah states in the Kitab-i-Iqan:
... a certain man, [Haji Mirza Karim Khan] reputed for his
learning and attainments, ... hath in his
Is it really that cut and dry? For instance, is the Maiden only a symbol given
to us, or was it also a symbol experienced by Baha'u'llah?
With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman
__
As to the ways Baha'u'llah aids us in the Iqan to recognize the Manifestation,
and whether logic is involved.
In my personal view, one needs to approach the Iqan without preconceptions as
to what Baha'u'llah will offer as proofs. Instead, to see what He actually
presents as proofs and argument
"Still, it seems to my limited mind, that if Baha'u'llah was omniscient
(even at will , whatever that means) then there woudl be no reason for
Him to "agonize" since He wouuld know 100% for sure that He would
triumph completely."
Dear Ron,
You are ignoring two very important points.
1) It was d
In a message dated 12/29/2004 4:15:09 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The same applies to Jesus, His sufferingsuffering on the Cross would be made meaningless if He knew all along He was God
Baha`u'llah denies being God. Muhammed denies being God. Jesus NEVER said He was God
Brent, you commented earlier , I think, that the main theme you saw in
teh Book of Certitude was sort of "how do we recognize a Manifestation"
I agree that is a main theme. I think the answer is (partly) by seeing
if what He says is logical, reasonable and also affirms the spiritual
message of
Thank you Brent for adding that. of course, I already assumed that the
Maiden was symbolic ( ;-))) ) but its nice to know that quote form the
Guardian.
Still, it seems to my limited mind, that if Baha'u'llah was omniscient
(even at will , whatever that means) then there woudl be no reason for
It is my understanding that there was no Maiden. Shoghi Effendi writes of
Baha'u'llah's vision of the Maiden in the Siyah-Chal that the Maiden, and all
the other images used for the earlier Manifestations of God, were symbols:
...at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the
"Occam's razor is tripping you up, Ron, instead of being helpful. As with all
other human means of knowing truth, at best it operates as a gross sieve."
I might add that William of Occam himself insisted that this 'razor' could only
be used in regards to temporal, not supernatural knowledge.
In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:36:46 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Good point. But I still wonder why God would do it this way. And it still violates Occam's Razor. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand En
At 11:47 AM -0500 12/29/04, Ron Stephens wrote:
>
>So this is an example of a statement in the Writings -- the statement
>that the Manifestation was "asleep on His couch" and the breezes of God
>"awoke" Him -- that should be understood symbolically.
>
>My reply: Yes, the Manifestation's essence is
As we strive to grasp the meaning of "omniscience" at will, I personally think
that the starting point is that this is manifestly beyond our ability to grasp.
As in one of the quotes from the Master from SAQ, He states that there are
matters beyond the capacity of man to know. So symbols are u
In a message dated 12/29/2004 11:03:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I
take Their statements literally unless thye violate natural law. The
existence of a human who inspired the stories about Abraham does not
require violation of physical laws of the universe, i
In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:43:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
why did
Baha'u'llah not speak with Browne in English, it is because he didn't
know English. Does this make sense if He is omniscient at
will? I think it does because I can argue that he did n
In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:36:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
Omniscient at will.. Whose will? Baha'u'llah prayed: "Aid me, O my
> Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will.">Good point.
But I still wonder why God would do it this way. And it still
On Dec 29, 2004, at 12:29 AM, Susan Maneck wrote:
"My reply: I assume Abraham actually existed. Of course there is no
objective proof for this, but I take the Manifestations' Word for this"
You mean, Their omniscience?
I take Their statements literally unless thye violate natural law. The
existenc
On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Brent Poirier wrote:
As to the omniscience of the Manifestation, it is referred to in more
than one place. For example, on the subject of Baha'u'llah's
appointment of Abdu'l-Baha as successor and interpreter of the Word,
Abdu'l-Baha writes of the omniscience of the
Hi Ron,
But Abdu'l-Baha is not omniscient at will. To me, He did not know english that well. If you ask, why did Baha'u'llah not speak with Browne in English, it is because he didn't know English. Does this make sense if He is omniscient at will? I think it does because I can argue that he di
On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sandra Chamberlain wrote:
Dear Ron, you wrote: <>Since every Manifestation acted consistently
with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and
omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means
believing that They lived their lives a
" Turkish ceased being the official language of Palestine in 1917 when
General Allenby drove the last Turkish forces out of the region."
Dear Scott,
After 1924 Ottoman isn't even used in Turkey. Ataturk changed the script.
"It seems to me that he must have had some Turkish, though I am sure it
My reply: But Baha'is almost all the time assume that the Central
Figures were omniscient at will.
Dear Ron,
Again, the letter written on behalf of the Guardian applied that phrase
solely to Baha'u'llah. As far as what Baha'is do 'all the time' what's that
to you?
"Also, how can an Interpreter
"The point at issue is clear, direct and of utmost brevity. Either Bah'u'llh
was wise, omniscient and aware of what would ensue, or was ignorant and in
error." (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 213)
Dear Brent,
In context, that statement does not appear to refer to Baha'u'llah'
As to the omniscience of the Manifestation, it is referred to in more than one
place. For example, on the subject of Baha'u'llah's appointment of Abdu'l-Baha
as successor and interpreter of the Word, Abdu'l-Baha writes of the omniscience
of the Manifestation:
"The point at issue is clear, dir
Dear Ron, you wrote: <>Since every Manifestation acted
consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not
omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were
Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived
their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid
Joke pr
Dr. Susan Maneck wrote, and I respond below:
Dear Ron,
Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand
it the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That
phrase occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein
he insists that *unlike* th
In a message dated 12/28/2004 7:21:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Scott,
Abdu'l-Baha did sometimes write in Ottoman Turkish but I don't know that
Shoghi Effendi knew it. Keep in mind that the Guardian was educated first in Catholic and then in American Presbyter
Ronald,
Thanks for there questions. I have thought about many of these myself ! Ronald Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other s
Thank you very much for informing me about what languages the Central
Figures understood and knew, in the real world. it is very helpful to
me, because I did not know.
On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply
til
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:59:56 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land,
and the "jailers" of Abdu'l Baha. I assume he had some fluency as did his
parents and grandparents.
Dear Scott,
Abdu'
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:03:04 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dr.
Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahaâi
scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at
Will, and other similar concepts that I
In a message dated 12/28/2004 2:28:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Rather I think all His own tabletswere written in Persian.
And Arabic
Regards,
Scott
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-arch
At 2:58 PM -0500 12/28/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:52:57 PM Central Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic. Do you
>have a reference?
>
> It was the official language of the Ottoman occupier
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:52:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic. Do youhave a reference?
It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land, and the "jailers" of Abdu'l Baha. I assume h
At 11:02 AM -0800 12/28/04, Ronald Stephens wrote:
>
>1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand?
>For instance,
>I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central
>Figures into English;
>so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic,
I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply til Susan makes comment)
1. The Bab and Baha`u'llah spoke Persian on a day-to-day basis. Neither one was particularly trained in Arabic though both showed a remarkable facility for their use of Arabic. Training young men in A
Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many
Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence
at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would
sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and
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