Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto, At 12:49 PM 1/30/2005, you wrote: >>Mark? >>"I think the above is a good example of perennialist triumphalism. The >>perenialist decides what the original religion was or wasn't, despite what >>that religion may say about itself.<< No, Susan wrote that. However, I would agree with it

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:56:36 -0800, Patti Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > > > I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic > > > Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or > > > never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (lik

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

> > I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic > > Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or > > never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like > > Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim > > perspective seem a l

Re: Bahai jihad?

Dear Rich, I'm sorry if my comment offend you -- it was not at all directed to you or for that matter to anyone else. I was merely commenting on the signal to noise ratio of the discussion. However, that was my own fault as I'd forgotten that this list is more (informed) conversation than detail

Re: Bahai jihad?

Listen, judging from the huge number of postings on this list, some of you folks seem to have a lot of time on your hand. I don't. So this is my last word on the subject. Ahang, I'm sorry for your bad feelings towards Islam. Nonetheless it gives you no cause to be dismisive and insulting

Re: Bahai jihad?

Ahang,     In Iran, yes. Iran was a very small part of the Islamic world. I'm not saying that there was ever a time in which the Jizya was paid nowhere in the Islamic world, only that In certain times and places, it was suspended. Rich Ahang Rabbani wrote: Dear Rich, The payment of jizya

RE: Bahai jihad?

"Besides, jizya was meant for the Jews and Christians. Qur'an says nothing about the Zoroastrians, where this tax was imposed with great vehemence to the destruction of that community." Uh Ahang, if the Zoroastrians hadn't been deemed eligible to pay the jiziya, they might have been killed straig

Re: Bahai jihad?

I don't know why the Qur'an sanctioned jizya. Why did the Bible endorse slavery, why did it call homosexuality an abomination, why did it sanction stoning if you plot different vegetables side by side, why did it allow one to sells his daughter, why did it prohibit touching pigs on Sabbath? None

Re: Bahai jihad?

(a) that people normally leave off the reservation that it is insidious in our time and it was not insidious during the time of Muhammad, or (b) it is insidious because the true Law of the Qur'an was supposed to be symbolic and never implemented, that jizya is actually a misinterpretation, by

Re: Bahai jihad?

Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:53:13 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Dear Rich,> The payment of jizya continued until the time of Baha'u'llah. I don't have> time now to get into the story of how this insidious tax At various times depending

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:53:13 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Rich, > The payment of jizya continued until the time of Baha'u'llah. I don't have > time now to get into the story of how this insidious tax At various times depending on circumstances jizya was sometimes

Re: Bahai jihad?

Dear Rich, The payment of jizya continued until the time of Baha'u'llah. I don't have time now to get into the story of how this insidious tax was lifted by Nasiri'd-Din Shah through the guidance of Baha'u'llah and the leg-work of Manikji Sahib, but you might find some pieces of the info in Balyu

Re: Bahai jihad?

In Gilberto's defense, I believe that Umar actually deferred the paying of the jizya in many instances. Rich Gilberto Simpson wrote: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:34:27 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You ought to be kidding! "Jizya" was a tax imposed on minorit

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:18:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who is "they"? the closest grammatic reference - being from your statement: "Baha`i's". " Bahais tell Muslims what "Seal of the> Prophets" means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how the> second

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:58:17 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:22:28 AM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims. > Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:22:28 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims.Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what "Seal of theProphets" means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how theseco

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:16:48 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:03:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic > Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:03:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authenticChristianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions ornever left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (lik

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:02:48 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > "The whole passage already looked sinister as is. I didn't remove any > mitigating context." Susan: > Yes, you did. You left out the parts that make that passage make sense. Gilberto: Go back and look at the

RE: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

I thought the laws were in the Aqdas? Dear Gilberto, Not all of them. > Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as I'm > sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam. "Then that's ultimately a matter of saving lives." It can be done according to I

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

- Hide quoted text - On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:51:39 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. Gilberto: > I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith > which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unj

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:28:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? > Dear Gilberto, > By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what w

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:10:36 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative?" > > It means it isn't. > > __ So why did mark attribute it to the UHJ? -GIlberto > You are subscri

RE: Bahai jihad?

"So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative?" It means it isn't. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:50:03 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So where did the document come from? > > Dear Gilberto, > > It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it > directly. > So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative? Peace

RE: Bahai jihad?

So where did the document come from? Dear Gilberto, It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it directly. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, se

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Susan, At 06:55 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>A controversial question. Raising a black flag in Khurasan was bound to >>provoke violence. That's how the rebellion against the Umayyad Dynasty was >>launched, after all.<< I guess it would depend on whether one interprets it as a provocation or as t

Re: Bahai jihad?

Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf War, in which compliance with Security Council resolutions was imposed by force on aggres

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/26/2004 1:02:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>And is that really how the rule is stated? So you can get an abortion if your doctor says its okay? Or do they have to be medically necessary?<< I"t is left up to the individual to m

Re: Bahai jihad?

Hi, Susan, At 06:49 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that it >>represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move >>towards.<< In an earlier message, the House of Justice did refer to the Gulf War as just. Rega

Re: Bahai jihad?

Gilberto, At 06:45 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there other >>official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War II? What do >>they say?<< The House of Justice made an earlier statement in which it called the Gulf War "just

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 4:26:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims? The Bab never waged jihad. His followers fought in His absence when He was imprisoned.   warmest, Susan _

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:00:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive actions against attacks by Muslims.   Dear Mark,   A controversial question. Raising a black flag in Khurasan

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:09:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:18:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.My mistake. Actually, I was thinking of both.   ___

Re: Bahai jihad?

Dear James,   A number of your quotations are taken from Divine Philosophy which more or less falls into the category of pilgrim's notes. But I think your understanding is both right and wrong. The very purpose of the Baha'i Faith is to bring about the unity of humanity and by it, an end to

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 6:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are thereother official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf WarII? Dear Gilberto,   That's the only one and it wasn't the H

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: would certainlyadmit that it has the potential to be abused (virtually all rules do)but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:12:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, > the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the > form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf W

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:31:34 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:25:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Secondly, the people being > protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were > members of the community. (

Re: Bahai jihad?

James, At 05:41 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned?<< "If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a st

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:34:27 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You ought to be kidding! "Jizya" was a tax imposed on minority religions > as a way to harass and contain them, and to ensure they were kept > economically dirt poor! > I have lived in many parts of the wor

Re: Bahai jihad?

Dear Friends, Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned? It occurs to this mind that many statements have been made opposing war, such as “In the new age Baha'o'llah has prohibited war.” (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 45) “Every war is against the good pleasu

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:17:23 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: > >>That's really not funny.<< > > By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that > Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam. My mistake.

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

>>Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at >>Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed >>to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah? >>I'll answer it myself... No.<< I agree. Regards, Mark A. Foster • http://markfoster.

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

"Mark A. Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?<

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

>>Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against >>Muslims?<< Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive actions against attacks by Muslims. Regards, Mark A. Foster • http://markfoster.net • [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Sacred cows make the tastie

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?"Mark A. Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto,At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:>>That's really not funny.<

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto, At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>That's really not funny.<< By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam. Regards, Mark A. Foster • http://markfoster.net • [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamb

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:25:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Secondly, the people beingprotected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who weremembers of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to beginwith). Really? And which of these traditi

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:20:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to make. I am not at all arguing about names and I have a difficult time figuring out why you find this so hard to grasp. Is

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? Dear Gilberto,   By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what we consider the Word of God. Baha'u'llah and the New Era is just a piece

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions)which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts ofcollective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat.In particular, why would the

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:33:49 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So are you saying that Christ already taught non-resistance. But thenunder Muhammad's dispensation the community progressed past it? Thenthe Bahai dispensation went backwards to what Christ taught? "> Hither

Re: Bahai jihad?

> Secondly, the people being > protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were > members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin > with). So perhaps I should have been clearer but the state would have > the obligation to protect the lives of all its citizens regard

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:25:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:21:10 PM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odd > distinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardl

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:29:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you understand what I'm asking? Yes.     Regards,   Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, sen

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:11:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your > religion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security"

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:21:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless ofwhose "name" they've been done in.PeaceGilberto Here's the first couple paragra

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:50:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > "So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between > "defending the religion" and "defending the country

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:51:39 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. Gilberto: > I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith > which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust > ruler." > Dea

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates onthe concept in interesting ways as well. No, it is not. It is by a Baha`i

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:42:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Where did the word 'righteous' come from? > In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called > "Righ

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:15:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1903, not 1906. Oops, sorry. I always associate with the Constitutional Revolution. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from atraditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context ofdefending Muslim lands and lives   Dear Gilberto,   When

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called"Righteous Warfare"   Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writ

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

1903, not 1906. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í > reference. > Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition?

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in yourreligion. I

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:43:07 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. > I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a had

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:19:31 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutely > exclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arm

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadithwhich states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjustruler."

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:16:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > "What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions) > which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai con

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:43:05 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:10:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EM

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:20:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Gilberto,   They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure.   Waging war in defense of 

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutelyexclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defendthemselves and fight non-Bahais." Dear Gilberto,   They

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You still haven't convincinglyexplained or shown why there would be any morally significantdifference between the "holy wars" carried out under the leadership ofthe prophet Muhammad or Imam Huss

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and "defending"? Dear Gilberto,   "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I'm talking about what could be life and

Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:13:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [hypothetical situation of a small group of Bahai countries being attacked by a coaliion of fundamentalist countries on

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:18:34 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But when Bahais make a big deal out say that "holy war" has been > abrogated it gives the impression that somehow they ar

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:10:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference. > Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a be

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, Susan, At 01:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >>I don't recall the Guardian referring to a woman's physician in this context >>though I'm aware the House of Justice has. Do you have a reference?<< I looked around for it, but I could not find it. That statement was, I believe, in a letter written

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/25/2004 6:02:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Although Shoghi Effendi said that abortions should not be permitted unless authorized by the woman's physician   Dear Mark,   I don't recall the Guardian referring to a woman's physician

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:46:40 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: it's true that the early, formative years of the Babí andBahá'í Faith were characterized by a good deal of violence and bloodshed Babi, not Baha'i. _

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But when Bahais make a big deal out say that "holy war" has beenabrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful,or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in princi

Re: Bahai jihad?

In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Butthey see the Bahai faith as a threat to their worldview, theirculture, their religion. And as a response, several countries led byreligious militant fundamentalists join together an attack t

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference.Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition?  Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect. For instan

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

G Gilberto: In some neighborhoods, teenagers will kill one another because someone is wearing a red bandana instead of a blue bandana (and vice versa in certain other neighborhoods). This doesn't prove that bandana color is a fundamental essential issue.     I spent ten years as a parame

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:56 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: > Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not > persuaded that the issues are fundemnantal or essential. > Well, you may > be in a minority here. Sunni are killing Shi'a in India and they are > per

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto: Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not persuaded that the issues are fundemnantal or essential.     Well, you may be in a minority here. Sunni are killing Shi'a in India and they are persecuted in Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a whole other kettle of worms. We shouldn't

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto, At 02:31 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote: >>I'm not sure if I'm always careful to say it this way but I would say >>"typical Muslims". Historically some past scholars (If I remember correctly >>Ibn Taymiyya might even be in this camp) took the position that "corruption" >>was a matter of wrong

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, John, > At 10:26 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote: > >>Then what is meant by saying that the Bible is corrupted, and the teaching > >>of the Sonship, Divinity of Christ, Crucifixtion of Christ, etc. are all > >>made-up by

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, Gilberto, At 12:28 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote: >>Do you find them less convincing than Bahai attempts to reconcile the Bible >>and Quran? No, that is what I was saying. I think that the various texts incorporated the Bible can be studied; and the Qur'an can be studied. If there are similaritie

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, John, At 10:35 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote: >>Remember, we are not talking about this or that school in Islam. Aren't we >>talking about Gilberto's version / view of Islam, as he presents it ?? !!<< I was referring to various Islamic positions, including among certain Islamic (not "universal"

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

G:  That's correct. I wouldn't make definite claims about Sidhartha orKrishna or others, but I wouldn't rule out that they were founded byprophets. I mean, in one hadith it says that in human history therewere as many as 124,000 prophets, so in fact most of them we probablydon't know. ALOT of the g

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:35:12 -0800 (PST), John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct. In fact, I don't disagree with > what you are saying. My statement did make some unjustified leaps and > assumptions. Let me restate what I really mean. > Remember, we

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:14:21 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > John, > At 09:45 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote: > >>Isn't it more universal to do the one (Baha'i) than the other (Islam) ? > >>Islam does not accept all religions as they are as valid expressions from > >>God. The Baha'

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:19:54 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, > At 02:43 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote: > >>If Bahais can try to present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, > >>Buddhism, Zorastrianism, etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent > >>differences betwee

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, John, At 10:26 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote: >>Then what is meant by saying that the Bible is corrupted, and the teaching of >>the Sonship, Divinity of Christ, Crucifixtion of Christ, etc. are all made-up >>by man? Isn't this not accepting Christianity as it presents itself?<< Obviously, Muslims

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct.  In fact, I don't disagree with what you are saying.  My statement did make some unjustified leaps and assumptions.  Let me restate what I really mean.   Remember, we are not talking about this or that school  in Islam.  Aren't we talking about Gilberto's

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