Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Stephen Swaney]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 03:25:15PM +0100, Knapp wrote:

>... If the XP users really must use his old computer and he wants new
> features that are not supported and he has internet then he can download a
> new and modern Linux lite distro and run the newest Blender. 

Last I looked, previous releases of Blender are still available.  If
we drop XP support, you can still run Blender on your old system, you
just don't get newer features.

This is reasonable.  New features tend to be computationally expensive
and if you have old stuff, you probably don't have a GPU.

I'm a big Linux fan but I would not recommend your average Windows
user install it, no matter what the distro.  Unless you feel adventurous!

S.
-- 
Stephen Swaney  sswa...@centurytel.net
231-313-2492skype: sswaney  (GMT-5)
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[patrick boelens]

One final note regarding Linux for less wealthy people: I think it's safe to 
assume that a lot of these people share a computer; be it within their family 
or within a broader community. I don't have any numbers for this, but making a 
blanket statement saying everyone has that option seems a bit too biased from 
our perspective imho.

Regardless, this discussion has been had many, many times before and I've made 
my point, so I'll go back to lurking for now. ;)

-Patrick

> To: bf-committers@blender.org
> From: matm...@live.fr
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:25:30 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support
> 
> Find me someone that used Blender on a linux distro one year long 
> without solving several problems with the command line.
> 
> Still today, the Linux distro which is seen as the most user-friendly:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/30c7ig/nvidia_drivers_not_working_with_linux_mint/
> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/153040/amd-drivers-make-linux-mint-17-cinnamon-crash
> https://nautilusmode.com/2015/08/09/how-to-install-krita-on-linux-mint-17-2/
> http://www.webupd8.org/2015/11/install-gimp-2816-in-ubuntu-or-linux.html
> 
> Dataloss on the most stable Linux Distro:
> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/369383
> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29162
> 
> And this are just some quick googling results. You can find much better 
> ones.
> 
> All the solutions proposed use the command line. I used Linux for more 
> than 10 years. Not a single year I could get all my apps and drivers in 
> their latest version without googling, posting on forum and using the 
> command line. Not speaking about the fun due to conflicts in the 
> libraries when you add to many repos, breaking other pass, etc.
> You can of course still believe that the 8% of Blender user under Linux 
> is due to people using the version 2.69 of Blender that is in their repo 
> or that all graphic artists on Linux have the time and skills to 
> compile  Blender themselves. On Windows, you download, double click the 
> installer or just unpack the archive and it just works.
> Note that I would be happy to see Linux as a serious alternative, but 
> it's still reserved to a small passionate community due to the final 
> polish not being done. 95% is there, but time is spend compiling the 
> same program 100x times for the 100s of distros and making 10 
> alternative of a video/music player/text editor/whatever, helping to 
> post command line solutions on 20 different forums instead of fixing 
> upstream once and for all. Creating new file systems with hash 
> collisions leading to security risk and data loss (BtrFS). In 2015 not 
> supporting NTFS completly (https://wimlib.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4).
> And most people on earth can't afford a new PC every 10 years.
> 
> On 30/01/2016 15:25, Knapp wrote:
> > If your computer is so old that it is running XP then you will have
> > problems with most advanced features that expect you to have a powerful
> > computer. If the XP users really must use his old computer and he wants new
> > features that are not supported and he has internet then he can download a
> > new and modern Linux lite distro and run the newest Blender. It is not like
> > we are even locking out poor people by dropping XP support.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Martijn Berger <martijn.ber...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Mike,
> >>
> >> I am pretty sure it either works or can be made to work pretty easy.
> >>
> >> Martijn
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Mike Erwin <significant@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Sebastian A. Brachi <
> >>> sebastianbra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
> >>>>>
> >>>> What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?
> >>>>
> >>>> As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows
> >> platform
> >>>>> while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This
> >>> means
> >>>>> that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require
> >>> Windows
> >>>> XP
> >>>>> support then please install Python 3.4.
> >>>> https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html
> >>>>
> >>> If Python stops working that's a BIG reason to move on. If unsupported
> >>> means "works, but don't expect support&qu

Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[matmenu]

Find me someone that used Blender on a linux distro one year long 
without solving several problems with the command line.

Still today, the Linux distro which is seen as the most user-friendly:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/30c7ig/nvidia_drivers_not_working_with_linux_mint/
http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/153040/amd-drivers-make-linux-mint-17-cinnamon-crash
https://nautilusmode.com/2015/08/09/how-to-install-krita-on-linux-mint-17-2/
http://www.webupd8.org/2015/11/install-gimp-2816-in-ubuntu-or-linux.html

Dataloss on the most stable Linux Distro:
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/369383
https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29162

And this are just some quick googling results. You can find much better 
ones.

All the solutions proposed use the command line. I used Linux for more 
than 10 years. Not a single year I could get all my apps and drivers in 
their latest version without googling, posting on forum and using the 
command line. Not speaking about the fun due to conflicts in the 
libraries when you add to many repos, breaking other pass, etc.
You can of course still believe that the 8% of Blender user under Linux 
is due to people using the version 2.69 of Blender that is in their repo 
or that all graphic artists on Linux have the time and skills to 
compile  Blender themselves. On Windows, you download, double click the 
installer or just unpack the archive and it just works.
Note that I would be happy to see Linux as a serious alternative, but 
it's still reserved to a small passionate community due to the final 
polish not being done. 95% is there, but time is spend compiling the 
same program 100x times for the 100s of distros and making 10 
alternative of a video/music player/text editor/whatever, helping to 
post command line solutions on 20 different forums instead of fixing 
upstream once and for all. Creating new file systems with hash 
collisions leading to security risk and data loss (BtrFS). In 2015 not 
supporting NTFS completly (https://wimlib.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4).
And most people on earth can't afford a new PC every 10 years.

On 30/01/2016 15:25, Knapp wrote:
> If your computer is so old that it is running XP then you will have
> problems with most advanced features that expect you to have a powerful
> computer. If the XP users really must use his old computer and he wants new
> features that are not supported and he has internet then he can download a
> new and modern Linux lite distro and run the newest Blender. It is not like
> we are even locking out poor people by dropping XP support.
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Martijn Berger 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I am pretty sure it either works or can be made to work pretty easy.
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Mike Erwin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Sebastian A. Brachi <
>>> sebastianbra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
> What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
>
 What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?

 As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows
>> platform
> while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This
>>> means
> that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require
>>> Windows
 XP
> support then please install Python 3.4.
 https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html

>>> If Python stops working that's a BIG reason to move on. If unsupported
>>> means "works, but don't expect support"... it's not as urgent.
>>> ___
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>

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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Knapp]

If your computer is so old that it is running XP then you will have
problems with most advanced features that expect you to have a powerful
computer. If the XP users really must use his old computer and he wants new
features that are not supported and he has internet then he can download a
new and modern Linux lite distro and run the newest Blender. It is not like
we are even locking out poor people by dropping XP support.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Martijn Berger 
wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> I am pretty sure it either works or can be made to work pretty easy.
>
> Martijn
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Mike Erwin 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Sebastian A. Brachi <
> > sebastianbra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
> > > >
> > >
> > > What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?
> > >
> > > As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows
> platform
> > > > while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This
> > means
> > > > that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require
> > Windows
> > > XP
> > > > support then please install Python 3.4.
> > >
> > > https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html
> > >
> >
> > If Python stops working that's a BIG reason to move on. If unsupported
> > means "works, but don't expect support"... it's not as urgent.
> > ___
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> > Bf-committers@blender.org
> > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >
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-- 
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Knapp]

I have been using Linux on my system for over 15 years.
I have never used the command line when using Blender. (I am talking as a
user, not as a developer or debugger. Developer's will have to dive deep.)

I have never had driver problems in connection with Blender.
I never use the Blender in the distro. They always seem to be badly done
and out of date. I always download straight from Blender.org. I have no big
problems other than the standard errors that effect other people.

15 year ago the people that were not computer literate might have had some
problems but not in the last  5 or so.
I biggest factor is what hardware you buy.

If you want painless linux then, ya buy Nvidia, get a supported printer and
don't expect the newest gismo to work without a fight. Mainstream, older
hardware almost always works and that is what poor people would have,
right?

You can also boot off a CD, USB or dual boot to overcome issues with others
in the family wanting a different system. In my house everyone uses Linux
without any complaints other than gaming issues when MS wins hands down.
For a normal internet surfer or artist there are very few problems. I would
recommend, Blender, VLC, Digikam, GIMP, Krita, mypaint and inkscape for a
good artist setup.

I run KDE Sabayon BTW. I would recommend KDE Mint for newbies.

My 78 year old mother installed Linux and runs it happily. She is an
artist. If she can do it, anyone can. BTW I did not help here other than
advice about what to buy and which distro to get.

Anyway this is not the place to war about OS. I was just saying that poor
people have many options open to them from using older versions of Blender
to running new ones with Linux.

PS Not even Microsoft supports XP!


-- 
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Sybren A . Stüvel]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:03:07AM +0100, Thomas Dinges wrote:
> If people are stuck with a 15! year old operating system (for
> whatever reason), they have to accept, that they cannot run latest
> software and have to stick with older versions.

I think this says it all.

-- 
Sybren A. Stüvel

http://stuvelfoto.nl/
http://stuvel.eu/


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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Thomas Dinges]

Hi,
first of all, I think it is up to Martijn, as he maintains the Windows
platform. :)

On the other hand, we dropped XP several times in the past already,
because it failed somehow on users systems or e.g. Martijn said it's
taking away too much of his time to keep it working.

And now we again have to discuss whether we want to drop it or not, that
makes no sense to me.

If people are stuck with a 15! year old operating system (for whatever
reason), they have to accept, that they cannot run latest software and
have to stick with older versions.

Additionally, with the OpenGL 2.1 bump in 2.77, I bet a lot of these
ancient systems, combined with Intel GMA cards will fail anyway. So what
is the point?

Best regards,
Thomas

Am 29.01.16 um 09:50 schrieb Martijn Berger:
> Hi Sergey,
>
> I think that we should drop window XP after 2.77. And switch to msvc 2015
> for 2.78 and 2.8 also.
>
> We should clearly advertise windows 7 SP1. As most issue are with FMA / AVX
> support and windwos 7 pre SP1 has some issues there.
>
> Martijn
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Sergey Sharybin 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> There are some difficulties in maintaining Windows XP and additionally
>> there are some glitches in the toolset needed to compile Windows XP
>> compatible binaries.
>>
>> So proposal is: make 2.77 a last release which officially supports Windows
>> XP and for the further releases switch to Windows 7+ platforms only. We'll
>> still be doing 64bit and 32bit builds, but just wouldn't waste time trying
>> to support new features on a platform which is no longer supported by
>> others.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> With best regards, Sergey Sharybin
>> ___
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[matmenu]

HI Matijn,

It's ok to drop xp for 2.8. It would be good to keep everyone on board 
for 2.7x but if it's really to much hassle, I think everyone can 
understand. Bliblubli on BA did a xp compatible build of latest master 
with OpenVDB. Maybe you can join forces?

Mat

On 29/01/2016 09:50, Martijn Berger wrote:
> Hi Sergey,
>
> I think that we should drop window XP after 2.77. And switch to msvc 2015
> for 2.78 and 2.8 also.
>
> We should clearly advertise windows 7 SP1. As most issue are with FMA / AVX
> support and windwos 7 pre SP1 has some issues there.
>
> Martijn
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Sergey Sharybin 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> There are some difficulties in maintaining Windows XP and additionally
>> there are some glitches in the toolset needed to compile Windows XP
>> compatible binaries.
>>
>> So proposal is: make 2.77 a last release which officially supports Windows
>> XP and for the further releases switch to Windows 7+ platforms only. We'll
>> still be doing 64bit and 32bit builds, but just wouldn't waste time trying
>> to support new features on a platform which is no longer supported by
>> others.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> With best regards, Sergey Sharybin
>> ___
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Martijn Berger]

Hi Mike,

I am pretty sure it either works or can be made to work pretty easy.

Martijn

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Mike Erwin 
wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Sebastian A. Brachi <
> sebastianbra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
> > >
> >
> > What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?
> >
> > As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows platform
> > > while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This
> means
> > > that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require
> Windows
> > XP
> > > support then please install Python 3.4.
> >
> > https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html
> >
>
> If Python stops working that's a BIG reason to move on. If unsupported
> means "works, but don't expect support"... it's not as urgent.
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Mike Erwin]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Sebastian A. Brachi <
sebastianbra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
> >
>
> What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?
>
> As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows platform
> > while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This means
> > that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require Windows
> XP
> > support then please install Python 3.4.
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html
>

If Python stops working that's a BIG reason to move on. If unsupported
means "works, but don't expect support"... it's not as urgent.
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[patrick boelens]

"I am happy to continue providing builds but I would really like to discontinue 
support after 2.77"

I think would be the most optimal solution. I don't know how the current 
distribution is, but I seem to recall last time this was brought up that a lot 
of XP downloads (and there was a substantial amount back then) came from less 
wealthy countries. Being able to provide 3D software to these users seems like 
a very positive endeavour, though of course Blender can't support XP forever 
either. If pushing out builds for as long as possible is a viable option, that 
would 100% have my vote. I only find it reasonable to drop support for it and 
newer/ incompatible features then.

Just my two cents,
Patrick

> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 18:03:56 +0100
> From: martijn.ber...@gmail.com
> To: bf-committers@blender.org
> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support
> 
> Hi Mat,
> 
> the issue is not so much technical difficulty of getting a build, that is
> trivial compared to the cost of not supporting newer API's in terms of
> performance and accepting bug reports from people with an ancient non
> supported system and usually hardware to match.
> I am happy to continue providing builds but I would really like to
> discontinue support after 2.77
> 
> Martijn
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 4:32 PM, matmenu <matm...@live.fr> wrote:
> 
> > HI Matijn,
> >
> > It's ok to drop xp for 2.8. It would be good to keep everyone on board
> > for 2.7x but if it's really to much hassle, I think everyone can
> > understand. Bliblubli on BA did a xp compatible build of latest master
> > with OpenVDB. Maybe you can join forces?
> >
> > Mat
> >
> > On 29/01/2016 09:50, Martijn Berger wrote:
> > > Hi Sergey,
> > >
> > > I think that we should drop window XP after 2.77. And switch to msvc 2015
> > > for 2.78 and 2.8 also.
> > >
> > > We should clearly advertise windows 7 SP1. As most issue are with FMA /
> > AVX
> > > support and windwos 7 pre SP1 has some issues there.
> > >
> > > Martijn
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Sergey Sharybin <sergey@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey everyone,
> > >>
> > >> There are some difficulties in maintaining Windows XP and additionally
> > >> there are some glitches in the toolset needed to compile Windows XP
> > >> compatible binaries.
> > >>
> > >> So proposal is: make 2.77 a last release which officially supports
> > Windows
> > >> XP and for the further releases switch to Windows 7+ platforms only.
> > We'll
> > >> still be doing 64bit and 32bit builds, but just wouldn't waste time
> > trying
> > >> to support new features on a platform which is no longer supported by
> > >> others.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> With best regards, Sergey Sharybin
> > >> ___
> > >> Bf-committers mailing list
> > >> Bf-committers@blender.org
> > >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >>
> > > ___
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> > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >
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> >
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Mike Erwin]

What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP? I know the
jump from Win 2000 to XP was because of the RawInput API for keyboard and
3D mice. I'm not making the case for keeping XP support forever, just want
a clear case for dropping it now instead of during 2.8.

Thomas Dinges  wrote:

> Additionally, with the OpenGL 2.1 bump in 2.77, I bet a lot of these
> ancient systems, combined with Intel GMA cards will fail anyway. So what
> is the point?
>

Martijn Berger  wrote:

> ... and usually hardware to match.


Combined with a crappy GPU, accept failure! But you can run many decent
GPUs under XP.

Windows 7 with latest service pack is a great target for 2.8. And MSVC 2015
as soon as possible! (It can still build for XP :))

Mike Erwin
musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Martijn Berger]

HI Mike,

We could switch to PSAPI version 2 when targeting vista or above.
I am sure there are others as just this one could have been handled without 
creating the **_xp variants of the toolchain.
For me personally I think switching to mdvc 2015 is more important ( I know 
vc140_xp exists but lets not go there )
and I do not run XP or Vista anymore and I do not know any other blender dev 
that does. 
Claiming real support based on that is a bit of a false promise.

> On 29 Jan 2016, at 21:00, Mike Erwin  wrote:
> 
> What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP? I know the
> jump from Win 2000 to XP was because of the RawInput API for keyboard and
> 3D mice. I'm not making the case for keeping XP support forever, just want
> a clear case for dropping it now instead of during 2.8.
> 
> Thomas Dinges  wrote:
> 
>> Additionally, with the OpenGL 2.1 bump in 2.77, I bet a lot of these
>> ancient systems, combined with Intel GMA cards will fail anyway. So what
>> is the point?
>> 
> 
> Martijn Berger  wrote:
> 
>> ... and usually hardware to match.
> 
> 
> Combined with a crappy GPU, accept failure! But you can run many decent
> GPUs under XP.
> 
> Windows 7 with latest service pack is a great target for 2.8. And MSVC 2015
> as soon as possible! (It can still build for XP :))
> 
> Mike Erwin
> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
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Re: [Bf-committers] Windows XP support

[Sebastian A. Brachi]

>
> What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP?
>

What about Python 3.5, which doesn't support XP anymore?

As specified in PEP 11, a Python release only supports a Windows platform
> while Microsoft considers the platform under extended support. This means
> that Python 3.5 supports Windows Vista and newer. If you require Windows XP
> support then please install Python 3.4.

https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Martijn Berger 
wrote:

> HI Mike,
>
> We could switch to PSAPI version 2 when targeting vista or above.
> I am sure there are others as just this one could have been handled
> without creating the **_xp variants of the toolchain.
> For me personally I think switching to mdvc 2015 is more important ( I
> know vc140_xp exists but lets not go there )
> and I do not run XP or Vista anymore and I do not know any other blender
> dev that does.
> Claiming real support based on that is a bit of a false promise.
>
> > On 29 Jan 2016, at 21:00, Mike Erwin  wrote:
> >
> > What newer APIs do we want to use but are being held back by XP? I know
> the
> > jump from Win 2000 to XP was because of the RawInput API for keyboard and
> > 3D mice. I'm not making the case for keeping XP support forever, just
> want
> > a clear case for dropping it now instead of during 2.8.
> >
> > Thomas Dinges  wrote:
> >
> >> Additionally, with the OpenGL 2.1 bump in 2.77, I bet a lot of these
> >> ancient systems, combined with Intel GMA cards will fail anyway. So what
> >> is the point?
> >>
> >
> > Martijn Berger  wrote:
> >
> >> ... and usually hardware to match.
> >
> >
> > Combined with a crappy GPU, accept failure! But you can run many decent
> > GPUs under XP.
> >
> > Windows 7 with latest service pack is a great target for 2.8. And MSVC
> 2015
> > as soon as possible! (It can still build for XP :))
> >
> > Mike Erwin
> > musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
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