Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Chuck Anderson
What is the best way to disable RPZ for a few clients (without forcing
those clients to use different DNS server IPs)?  I think I could
create a new view that has all the same zones and zone contents except
for the RPZ one.  If I go this route, is it still required to set up
per-view IP aliases on the master and slaves so that NOTIFY and
transfers work properly?  All of my client-facing DNS servers are
secondaries with a shadow master.  I was kinda hoping that newer
versions of BIND could share zones (with identical zone contents)
between views without requiring the messy multiple IP alias setup.

Thanks.
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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Doug Barton

On 02/06/2014 06:27 AM, Chuck Anderson wrote:

I was kinda hoping that newer
versions of BIND could share zones (with identical zone contents)
between views without requiring the messy multiple IP alias setup.


You have always been able to do this with include files.

hth,

Doug

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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Chuck Anderson
On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 09:50:26AM -0800, Doug Barton wrote:
 On 02/06/2014 06:27 AM, Chuck Anderson wrote:
 I was kinda hoping that newer
 versions of BIND could share zones (with identical zone contents)
 between views without requiring the messy multiple IP alias setup.
 
 You have always been able to do this with include files.

I'm not sure how this helps.  If you do this:

named.conf:

view no-rpz {
match-clients { 192.168.1.1; };

zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
};
};

view global {
match-clients { any; };
response-policy { zone rpzip.example.com; };

zone rpzip.example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/rpzip.example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.2; };
};

zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
};
};

Then the global view sees updates to example.com quickly, as soon as
NOTIFY is sent by the master and the zone is transferred.  However,
the no-rpz view doesn't see changes to example.com in a timely
manner.  I've had to wait awhile (SOA refresh) for new records to
appear and old records to disappear from the no-rpz view's
example.com zone.

I don't see how changing it to use includes helps the matter any:

named.conf.example.com:

zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
};


named.conf:

view no-rpz {
match-clients { 192.168.1.1; };

include named.conf.example.com;
};

view global {
match-clients { any; };
response-policy { zone rpzip.example.com; };

zone rpzip.example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/rpzip.example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.2; };
};

include named.conf.example.com;
};

Maybe I'm missing something.
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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Evan Hunt
On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 03:10:03PM -0500, Chuck Anderson wrote:
  You have always been able to do this with include files.
 
 I'm not sure how this helps.  If you do this:
 
 Then the global view sees updates to example.com quickly, as soon as
 NOTIFY is sent by the master and the zone is transferred.  However,
 the no-rpz view doesn't see changes to example.com in a timely
 manner.  I've had to wait awhile (SOA refresh) for new records to
 appear and old records to disappear from the no-rpz view's
 example.com zone.

You can have one view send a NOTIFY to the other view using
TSIG; there's a recipe for this in the bind9 FAQ.

Also, in the upcoming BIND 9.10, a single zone object can be
shared between two views:

view us {
match-clients { localnets; };
zone example.com {
type slave;
masters { ... };
};
};

view them {
zone example.com {
in-view us;
};
};

-- 
Evan Hunt -- e...@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.
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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Jay Ford

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Chuck Anderson wrote:

On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 09:50:26AM -0800, Doug Barton wrote:

On 02/06/2014 06:27 AM, Chuck Anderson wrote:

I was kinda hoping that newer
versions of BIND could share zones (with identical zone contents)
between views without requiring the messy multiple IP alias setup.


Evan Hunt just replied, but I already this typed so

I think that's coming in 9.10, which is in alpha now.


You have always been able to do this with include files.


I'm not sure how this helps.  If you do this:

named.conf:

view no-rpz {
   match-clients { 192.168.1.1; };

   zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
   };
};

view global {
   match-clients { any; };
   response-policy { zone rpzip.example.com; };

   zone rpzip.example.com {
type slave;
   file /var/named/slaves/rpzip.example.com.zone;
   masters { 10.0.0.2; };
   };

   zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
   };
};

Then the global view sees updates to example.com quickly, as soon as
NOTIFY is sent by the master and the zone is transferred.  However,
the no-rpz view doesn't see changes to example.com in a timely
manner.  I've had to wait awhile (SOA refresh) for new records to
appear and old records to disappear from the no-rpz view's
example.com zone.


I like the trick of having view A pull the zone from the real master 
notify view B, while view B pulls the zone locally from view A, using TSIG
keys to indicate the other view for the notify  transfer.

Adapting your config, using IPv6 loopback addresses, something like this
might work for you:

   key be-internal.keys.example.com. {
   algorithm hmac-md5;
  secret ...secret stuff...;
   };

   view no-rpz {
  match-clients {
 192.168.1.1;
 key be-internal.keys.example.com.;
  };

  zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { ::1; };
allow-notify { localhost; };
  };
   };

   view global {
  match-clients { any; };

  // define self as server using be-internal key to allow
  // external-internal notify for common zones mastered by
  // servers unaware of our view games
  server ::1 { keys intra-dns-be-internal.keys.uiowa.edu.; };

  response-policy { zone rpzip.example.com; };

  zone rpzip.example.com {
type slave;
  file /var/named/slaves/rpzip.example.com.zone;
  masters { 10.0.0.2; };
  };

  zone example.com {
type slave;
file /var/named/slaves/example.com.zone;
masters { 10.0.0.1; };
also-notify { ::1; };  // internal-external trickery
  };
   };

The relatively new ability to specify a key in a masters statement can
also be useful, but isn't required for the above example.

Evaluate it for use in your context.  I don't know how/if this interacts with
RPZ.  It also assumes you don't do anything else with DNS via loopback
addresses. ...


Jay Ford, Network Engineering Group, Information Technology Services
University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242
email: jay-f...@uiowa.edu, phone: 319-335-
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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Chuck Anderson
On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 02:49:03PM -0600, Jay Ford wrote:
 I like the trick of having view A pull the zone from the real master 
 notify view B, while view B pulls the zone locally from view A, using TSIG
 keys to indicate the other view for the notify  transfer.
 
 Adapting your config, using IPv6 loopback addresses, something like this
 might work for you:

Neat.  Is there any problem with using the exact same zone file in
both views?  I worry that one view might fight with the file from the
other view...

Thanks!
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Re: Disabling RPZ for a few clients / views sharing zones

2014-02-06 Thread Jay Ford

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Chuck Anderson wrote:

Neat.  Is there any problem with using the exact same zone file in
both views?  I worry that one view might fight with the file from the
other view...


Oh yeah, sorry, I left that bit out.  The slave files do need to be unique or 
they will over-write each other.  I use a directory per view to keep things 
tidy.


Jay
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-10 Thread Kevin Darcy

Alans,
I think you're mixing up the resolver function with the 
hosting function. With some development and implementation, you can 
offer your customers the ability to set up and maintain their own 
domains on one nameserver instance, and then have another instance set 
up for them to resolve Internet DNS names. It is that resolving 
instance for which you may want to set up views, so that you can have 
per-customer blocking of domains (although in general this is better 
done in a web proxy than with Stupid DNS Tricks, IMO) but in that case 
the number of exception zones would presumably be much smaller than 
the thousands of domains you quoted, which would be in the hosting 
instance. How many domains would people want to block in this manner?


As for per-customer blocking, I'd suggest having just one blocking 
view, with the specific domains that are to be blocked, as empty or 
wildcarded zones, running on a separate interface, and have your 
blocking-subscribed customers point to that. If that's not 
fine-grained enough, have a small number of blocking levels -- e.g. 
none, loose, medium, tight, supertight -- running on separate 
interfaces, and your customers can choose between them. If they want to 
pick and choose domain-blocks individually, then this doesn't scale 
(it's 2-to-the-power-of-n, where n is the number of domains blocked or 
not blocked), so, as another poster here suggested, for such special 
needs, make them run their own blocking nameserver config, either 
completely their own, or layered (through forwarding) on top of one of 
your loose/medium/tight/supertight offerings. You could offer them some 
sort of template for this local nameserver config, but ultimately it 
would be their responsibility to set up and run.


Make clear to them that blocking domains was never a designed-in 
function of the DNS, that they're essentially abusing a name-to-address 
mapping service to enforce policy controls on their respective user 
communities, enforcement that oftentimes is easily circumvented by using 
other naming mechanisms (e.g. local hosts files) or IP-address literals.




- Kevin


On 11/8/2010 1:01 AM, Alans wrote:

On 11/08/2010 12:52 AM, Doug Barton wrote:

On 10/31/2010 9:41 AM, Alans wrote:

On 10/31/2010 05:48 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be 
much

better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.
I'm trying to implement something similar to OpenDNS in a smaller 
scale.

i.e. letting each customer to create their own blacklist domains.

So I was thinking if I can create a view for each customer and let them
edit their zones in a web interface and here my concern is the 
number of

views i can create and number of zones/view.


I'm not sure you quite understand what zones and views are. Why would
you not simply create a single zone per customer, and eliminate views
altogether?



Well, maybe I'm not, but how to create a zone per customer?
Example, customer1 wants to block access to facebook.com while 
customer2 wants normal access to facebook.com, how a single view can 
do that?

And we are talking about thousands of domains here.

Alans
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RE: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-08 Thread Lightner, Jeff
You would NOT use a single zone for this.   Views are designed
specifically to control what is seen.  However, that control is mainly
done by acl's specifying which networks access which views.   Do you
assign specific subnets to each client?  If so you could do this with
views but processing needed to load dozens of views is not something I
can comment on as I think most people only do a couple.   (Here we do
only internal and external to differentiate what people on the internet
see as opposed to what people on our intranet see.)

What a single zone file can be used for is when you have multiple
domains that all point to the same IP address and have the same basic
information (e.g. domain A records, www A record, ftp A record, same MX
records and same DNS servers).   At that point you rely on your web
server to determine actual landing page based on the URL that got the
user there.

-Original Message-
From: bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org
[mailto:bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org] On Behalf
Of Alans
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:01 AM
To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Subject: Re: no. of Views and Zones

On 11/08/2010 12:52 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
 On 10/31/2010 9:41 AM, Alans wrote:
 On 10/31/2010 05:48 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:
 On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
 Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be
much
 better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.
 I'm trying to implement something similar to OpenDNS in a smaller
scale.
 i.e. letting each customer to create their own blacklist domains.

 So I was thinking if I can create a view for each customer and let
them
 edit their zones in a web interface and here my concern is the number
of
 views i can create and number of zones/view.

 I'm not sure you quite understand what zones and views are. Why would
 you not simply create a single zone per customer, and eliminate views
 altogether?


Well, maybe I'm not, but how to create a zone per customer?
Example, customer1 wants to block access to facebook.com while customer2

wants normal access to facebook.com, how a single view can do that?
And we are talking about thousands of domains here.

Alans
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-08 Thread Alan Clegg

 Thanks Alan, I'll try to do more research and I really like to hear from
 you or anyone else about better solutions if possible.

I think your best solution is to not try to play traffic cop with DNS.

If customers don't want their users to access XYZ, let THEM run a
proxy or firewall that filters out traffic to/from XYZ.

You are always going to be playing catch-up and people will always
find ways to work around your solution.

Good luck,
AlanC



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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-08 Thread Chris Buxton

Lightner, Jeff wrote:

You would NOT use a single zone for this.   Views are designed
specifically to control what is seen.  However, that control is mainly
done by acl's specifying which networks access which views.


Or by server IP. You can use match-destinations with views to provide a 
different virtual server per server IP address, all on one box, with a 
single instance of named. You can even combine match-destinations, 
match-clients, and match-recursive-only together to satisfy even more 
complex scenarios.


That said, if it were me, I'd run separate boxes, separate VM's, or at 
least separate instances of named (each attached to a different IP) in 
the scenario posed by the OP.



Do you
assign specific subnets to each client?  If so you could do this with
views but processing needed to load dozens of views is not something I
can comment on as I think most people only do a couple.   (Here we do
only internal and external to differentiate what people on the internet
see as opposed to what people on our intranet see.)
   


I also don't have any empirical data, but I do expect that setting up 
thousands of views would have a significant impact on performance — each 
query runs a gantlet of match-* ACL's before finding the correct view.


Regards,
Chris Buxton
BlueCat Networks
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RE: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-08 Thread Lightner, Jeff
Right.

Since we do external and internal we actually have separate NICs for our
internal facing network and our external facing network.  We do use
virtual IPs for the zone transfers from the master to slaves though.

I wasn't suggesting the OP use dozens or hundreds of views because as I
noted I don't know what the performance impact is.  I was mainly posting
to say that a single zone file wouldn't do what he wanted.   Views
theoretically work but performance is a key question.

Setting up VMs would probably be a good idea from a security standpoint
(i.e. one client doesn't see what another one has).  However, it seems
one would not be able to run as many VMs as views simply because each VM
would take up resources not just for DNS but for the underlying OS on
each.

If it were me I'd prefer doing multiple VMs at least (and as many
servers as required to support the VMs) if I was concerned about
security of each customer.   This would especially be true if those
customers also had web, mail or other servers being hosted by me as
well.


-Original Message-
From: Chris Buxton [mailto:chris.p.bux...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:32 PM
To: Lightner, Jeff
Cc: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Subject: Re: no. of Views and Zones

Lightner, Jeff wrote:
 You would NOT use a single zone for this.   Views are designed
 specifically to control what is seen.  However, that control is mainly
 done by acl's specifying which networks access which views.

Or by server IP. You can use match-destinations with views to provide a 
different virtual server per server IP address, all on one box, with a 
single instance of named. You can even combine match-destinations, 
match-clients, and match-recursive-only together to satisfy even more 
complex scenarios.

That said, if it were me, I'd run separate boxes, separate VM's, or at 
least separate instances of named (each attached to a different IP) in 
the scenario posed by the OP.

 Do you
 assign specific subnets to each client?  If so you could do this with
 views but processing needed to load dozens of views is not something I
 can comment on as I think most people only do a couple.   (Here we do
 only internal and external to differentiate what people on the
internet
 see as opposed to what people on our intranet see.)


I also don't have any empirical data, but I do expect that setting up 
thousands of views would have a significant impact on performance - each

query runs a gantlet of match-* ACL's before finding the correct view.

Regards,
Chris Buxton
BlueCat Networks
 
Proud partner. Susan G. Komen for the Cure.
 
Please consider our environment before printing this e-mail or attachments.
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-07 Thread Doug Barton

On 10/31/2010 9:41 AM, Alans wrote:

On 10/31/2010 05:48 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be much
better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.

I'm trying to implement something similar to OpenDNS in a smaller scale.
i.e. letting each customer to create their own blacklist domains.

So I was thinking if I can create a view for each customer and let them
edit their zones in a web interface and here my concern is the number of
views i can create and number of zones/view.


I'm not sure you quite understand what zones and views are. Why would 
you not simply create a single zone per customer, and eliminate views 
altogether?



Doug

--

Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much.
-- OK Go

Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS.
Yours for the right price.  :)  http://SupersetSolutions.com/

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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-07 Thread J. Thomsen

I'm not sure you quite understand what zones and views are. Why would 
you not simply create a single zone per customer, and eliminate views 
altogether?


Are you suggesting a single zone with multiple domain names ?
I fail to see, how that should be a possible road to follow.

The idea, that I am also advocating, is a way of grouping a number of zones, so 
that the
administration would be easier in a multi-customer setup.
It is a simple extension of views. 
I wish people here would just have a little imagination and go beyond thinking 
about the
current concept of views.

I am wondering, why the designers of the new rndc addzone/delzone facility are 
not at all
voicing any opinions here, but they may not subscribe to this list at all.

Where can they be reached ?


- Jørgen Thomsen
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-07 Thread Alans

On 11/08/2010 12:52 AM, Doug Barton wrote:

On 10/31/2010 9:41 AM, Alans wrote:

On 10/31/2010 05:48 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be much
better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.

I'm trying to implement something similar to OpenDNS in a smaller scale.
i.e. letting each customer to create their own blacklist domains.

So I was thinking if I can create a view for each customer and let them
edit their zones in a web interface and here my concern is the number of
views i can create and number of zones/view.


I'm not sure you quite understand what zones and views are. Why would
you not simply create a single zone per customer, and eliminate views
altogether?



Well, maybe I'm not, but how to create a zone per customer?
Example, customer1 wants to block access to facebook.com while customer2 
wants normal access to facebook.com, how a single view can do that?

And we are talking about thousands of domains here.

Alans
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-05 Thread Alans

On 11/04/2010 06:43 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On 11/4/2010 12:22 AM, Alans wrote:

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of
views? I mean creating a view/customer?
And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?


Since I didn't got exact answer for my questions, I was thinking if you
can tell what is your largest number of views and zones that you used so
far?


sizeof(zone data) * count(views) -  memory required

If you have enough memory, you can support whatever you need.  Again, I
think there's a better solution out there than bunches of views.


Thanks Alan, I'll try to do more research and I really like to hear from 
you or anyone else about better solutions if possible.


regards,
Alans
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-04 Thread Alans

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of
views? I mean creating a view/customer?
And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?


Since I didn't got exact answer for my questions, I was thinking if you 
can tell what is your largest number of views and zones that you used so 
far?


regards,
Alans
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-11-04 Thread Alan Clegg
On 11/4/2010 12:22 AM, Alans wrote:
 On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
 Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of
 views? I mean creating a view/customer?
 And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?
 
 Since I didn't got exact answer for my questions, I was thinking if you
 can tell what is your largest number of views and zones that you used so
 far?

sizeof(zone data) * count(views) - memory required

If you have enough memory, you can support whatever you need.  Again, I
think there's a better solution out there than bunches of views.

AlanC



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no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread Alans

Hello Everyone,

Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of 
views? I mean creating a view/customer?

And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?


Thanks in advance.
Alans
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread J. Thomsen
Alans, 

Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of 
views? I mean creating a view/customer?
And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?

You cannot use views to group zones for customers.

I have recently on this list proposed an extension to the view concept to be 
able to do
this, but nobody has commented on this proposal.

Views are primarily used for cases, when IP-adresses are different e.g. 
internal addresses
versus external addresses depending on the client IP address looking up the 
zone data.


- Jørgen Thomsen

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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread Bèrto ëd Sèra
Pardon a n00b question, but wouldn't that be the case if you used a number
of different IPV6 addresses?

Bèrto

On 31 October 2010 14:04, J. Thomsen l...@jth.net wrote:

 Alans,
 
 Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of
 views? I mean creating a view/customer?
 And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?

 You cannot use views to group zones for customers.

 I have recently on this list proposed an extension to the view concept to
 be able to do
 this, but nobody has commented on this proposal.

 Views are primarily used for cases, when IP-adresses are different e.g.
 internal addresses
 versus external addresses depending on the client IP address looking up the
 zone data.


 - Jørgen Thomsen

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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread Alan Clegg
On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:

 Have 2 questions, is there any limitation (beside hardware) on number of
 views? I mean creating a view/customer?
 And is there any limitation for number of zones/view?

Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be much
better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.

Can you perhaps explain your need to fragment the DNS namespace (which
was NOT supposed to be done)?

AlanC



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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread J. Thomsen
Alan Clegg, 


Can you perhaps explain your need to fragment the DNS namespace (which
was NOT supposed to be done)?

I cannot speak for Alans, but only for our own needs.

We run DNSes for a number of customers i.e. everybody in the whole world should 
see the
same zone data. No different views of the same zones here.

Currently this is implemented by external tools maintaining include files.

Recently an rndc addzone/delzone feature has been introduced. It is maintaining 
views and
include files and making instant updates.

What I am proposing is a simple generalization of this concept, so that a view 
can be used
as a group thus eliminating the need for external tools.

Conceptually this is very simple. Just make BIND search for a zone in all views 
matching
the client until it finds it instead of only searching the first matching view 
as it does
today.

It is even backward compatible for current correct configuration of views.

mvh
Jørgen
 
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Re: no. of Views and Zones

2010-10-31 Thread Alans

On 10/31/2010 05:48 PM, Alan Clegg wrote:

On 10/31/2010 4:48 AM, Alans wrote:
Instead of saying how many views can I get, I think you would be much
better off saying why am I trying to implement more views.

I'm trying to implement something similar to OpenDNS in a smaller scale.
i.e. letting each customer to create their own blacklist domains.

So I was thinking if I can create a view for each customer and let them 
edit their zones in a web interface and here my concern is the number of 
views i can create and number of zones/view.


I'd like to hear if there are other ways to do this.

P.S. I read the specs for DNS RPZ but I can't find enough docs about 
it to try it.



Can you perhaps explain your need to fragment the DNS namespace (which
was NOT supposed to be done)?

AlanC

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