Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

All reasonable. e > Okay, it seems to me that what you are saying is something like this: > > > Proof-of-reserves would (partially) work for a "pure" warehousing service > (i.e. user pays some fee, service keeps money and provides proofs that > money is kept). > > However, "pure" warehousing is

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

Good morning e, Okay, it seems to me that what you are saying is something like this: > Proof-of-reserves would (partially) work for a "pure" warehousing service > (i.e. user pays some fee, service keeps money and provides proofs that money > is kept). > However, "pure" warehousing is not what

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

> Good morning e, Good afternoon Z. > > Any expectation of interest implies borrowing, in other words, a loan to > the bank. > > Perhaps this is the key point of contention? I'm not sure, but from my observations it's long been a point of confusion in Bitcoiner understanding of banking.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

Good morning e, > Any expectation of interest implies borrowing, in other words, a loan to > the bank. Perhaps this is the key point of contention? In cases where Bitcoin is given over to an exchange, there is no expectation of interest, at least in the sense that there is no expectation

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

>> You can prove that in your own wallet. All other scenarios imply lending >> (which is what is implied by “reserve”) and lending cannot be 100% reserve. >You're using terms in non-standard ways. Putting money into a bank is not >considered "lending" to the bank. What people consider is

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

> there is an unsupportable leap being made here You think that because you're misinterpreting me. I'm in no way claiming that any solvent company can prove it, I'm simply claiming that any company can prove that they have bitcoin reserves to cover bitcoins promised as account balances. > Banks

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

@Voskuil > You can prove that in your own wallet. All other scenarios imply lending (which is what is implied by “reserve”) and lending cannot be 100% reserve. You're using terms in non-standard ways. Putting money into a bank is not considered "lending" to the bank. You may make a case that

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

> On Jul 9, 2021, at 10:44, Billy Tetrud wrote: > > > there is an unsupportable leap being made here > > You think that because you're misinterpreting me. I'm in no way claiming that > any solvent company can prove it, I'm simply claiming that any company can > prove that they have bitcoin

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

> On Jul 7, 2021, at 01:20, Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > But people can certainly pull their money out of companies that can't show > solvency. As I pointed out previously there is an unsupportable leap being made here between a vault (money warehouse) and any company (including

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

I wanted to relay an interesting related link that Melvin PMed me: https://petertodd.org/2016/commitments-and-single-use-seals @Aronesty Thanks, that system looks interesting, I'll have a closer look! @Voskuil I think we must disagree on at least one fundamental point. I'm finding myself

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

improvement over holding your own keys. e > -Original Message- > From: bitcoin-dev On > Behalf Of Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev > Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 9:40 AM > To: Billy Tetrud ; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion > > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

you should check out some of the earlier work done here: https://github.com/olalonde/proof-of-solvency#assets-proof to be honest, if any exchange supported that proof, it would be more than enough. there's really no way to prevent a smash-and-grab, but this does prevent a slow-leak On Mon,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

@ZmnSCPxj > a thief (or "thief") who has gotten a copy of the key can sign a transaction that spends it, one second after the proof-of-reserves is made. Sure, but anyone can easily see that transaction happen and can discount that part of the attestation. The same isn't true on lightning. >

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

@ ZmnSCPxj, Good Evening > The two participants in the channel can sign a plaintext containing their node pubkeys and how much each owns Sure, but even if both participants in the channel sign a correct statement of truth, one of the participants can send funds out in the next second,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

> @Eric > Auditability Fallacy > > > A solvency audit requires simultaneous (atomic) proof of both the full > > amount of the asset held by a custodian and the securities issued against > > it. > > > in the case where the security is issued on a distinct public chain the > > atomicity

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Auditability-Fallacy > On Jul 5, 2021, at 21:54, ZmnSCPxj wrote: > > Good morning Billy, > > >> >>> The two participants in the channel can sign a plaintext containing their >>> node pubkeys and how much each owns >> >> Sure, but even

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

Good morning Billy, > > >  The two participants in the channel can sign a plaintext containing their > >node pubkeys and how much each owns > > Sure, but even if both participants in the channel sign a correct statement > of truth, one of the participants can send funds out in the next second,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

Good morning e, > If only one could prove that he won’t get into a boating accident. At least in the context of Lightning channels, if one party in the channel loses its key in a boating accident, the other party (assuming it is a true separate person and not a sockpuppet) has every incentive

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

If only one could prove that he won’t get into a boating accident. e > On Jul 5, 2021, at 16:26, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > Good morning Billy, > >> I wonder if there would be some way to include the ability to prove balances >> held on the lightning network, but I suspect that

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

Good morning Billy, > I wonder if there would be some way to include the ability to prove balances > held on the lightning network, but I suspect that isn't generally possible.  Thinking about this in terms of economic logic: Every channel is anchored onchain, and that anchor (the funding

[bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording

I had the idea recently for proof of reserves done in a way that can be used to verify reserves are sufficient on an ongoing basis. I'm curious if there are any current approaches out there to proof of reserves that are similar. The idea is to have