Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

There's also an interesting question posted over at Reddit - will Lightning payment hubs be treated as money transmitters in the US? https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/comments/3gjnmd/lightning_may_not_be_a_scaling_solution/ A payment hub operator working with brand name merchants like D

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Lightning will never catch on as it basically demands that everyone who uses it to become a speculator. Payment hubs and merchants will be at the mercy of the bitcoin price while their funds stay locked up in payment channels. This idea is a dead-end. On 10 August 2015 at 22:43, Adam Back via bitc

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

In terms of usage I think you'd more imagine a wallet that basically parks Bitcoins onto channels at all times, so long as they are routable there is no loss, and the scalability achieved thereby is strongly advantageous, and there is even the potential for users to earn fees by having their wallet

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 05:02:40AM +0800, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 06:44:08PM -0400, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the > > user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and wh

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 06:44:08PM -0400, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: > I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the > user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and what > new pieces of infrastructure need to get built to make it all work.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Replying because. On 08/10/2015 10:14 AM, Pieter Wuille wrote: > > On Aug 10, 2015 7:03 PM, "odinn via bitcoin-dev" > > wrote: Note that > I've >> been in favor of going ahead with Cameron Garnham's dyn

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On Aug 10, 2015 7:03 PM, "odinn via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: Note that I've > been in favor of going ahead with Cameron Garnham's dynamic softfork > proposal right now, which can be seen at http://is.gd/DiFuRr No offence, but I think that anyone who claims a blo

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello, If I understand this correctly, Lightning only requires transaction malleability to be fixed to be able to work ~ I believe that was going to happen in a release of (bitcoind), but I'm not sure if that is correct on timing ( note also, this wik

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

If a path cannot be built to the recipient through the lightning network then a standard transaction should be used. On 08/10/2015 01:27 AM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On Sunday 9. August 2015 23.51.50 Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> I thought it's worth mentioning there is a specif

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On Sunday 9. August 2015 23.51.50 Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev wrote: > I thought it's worth mentioning there is a specific Lightning Network > development mailing list at > http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev and already > some pretty interesting explanations in the archive

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Hi Hector, On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 09:48:41PM +0100, Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Is the Lightning system limited in the number of hops there can be in > the payment channel? I am looking at the initial Lightning slides > presented in February and it looks like the locktime decrements by >

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Hi Gavin, On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 06:44:08PM -0400, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: > I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the > user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and what > new pieces of infrastructure need to get built to make i

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

> I would be surprised if the rates charged to consumers for BTC credit aren't much closer to today's BTC borrowing rates. The borrowing rates you're talking about involve the risk of default. In lightning the hubs funds are not at risk so long as they maintain control of the private keys. The r

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On 8/9/2015 2:45 PM, Hector Chu wrote: > Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment > hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the > person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub > always sums to zero. That describes the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

I thought it's worth mentioning there is a specific Lightning Network development mailing list at http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev and already some pretty interesting explanations in the archives. ___ bitcoin-dev mailing lis

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

While we're on the subject of payment hubs / lightning network... I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and what new pieces of infrastructure need to get built to make it all work. A use-case to sta

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On the contrary those costs are clearly very low. Both the time value of money and operating expenses will be trivial with even a small volume of transactions. The true cost of operating a hub is clearly in the enhanced risk of loss. It's clear that risk of loss will be moderated by market force

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Sorry about that Patrick. Gmail hides previous messages including sender names. Regardless, no worries. On 9 August 2015 at 23:27, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > That was not in reply to you. > > > On 08/09/2015 03:09 PM, Hector Chu wrote: > >

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

That was not in reply to you. On 08/09/2015 03:09 PM, Hector Chu wrote: > Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does it answer my > concerns of the exploding cost of the network the more interconnected > it it? > > On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev >

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does it answer my concerns of the exploding cost of the network the more interconnected it it? On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I suspect there is some amount of confusion

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

I suspect there is some amount of confusion here on terms. The hub is essentially swapping funds between payment channels. The hub's entire business is centered around having payment channels open with other hubs/users. If the hub requires user funds to open these channels... then the users have

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Ok good. We have established it to be a non-trivial cost. Now, what is the growth complexity of the total cost of the network in terms of number of connections each hub has to other hubs? And then, consider a payment channel with many hops in it. The end-to-end users would have to swallow all the c

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

The costs of operating a hub are as follows: Time value of the funds the Hub has locked up in payment channels. Enhanced risk of loss of control of private keys (the keys necessarily need to be on an internet connected system). Operating costs (I expect this will be minimal). The hub can charge a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub always sums to zero. So no, there is no credit advanced by the payment hub to anyone.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

I'm glad Tom is bringing these points up. There seems to be an assumption by many that LN will be automatically awesome by virtue of it being technically feasible with having considered whether it is economically feasible or desirable. So much stock has been placed in LN as the solution to the blo

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On Aug 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Mark Friedenbach" wrote: > On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on the creation of the channel. There is no credit involved. That's a chuckle. As I said, nothing requires the hub to advance anything, and if it does, Bob can expect to pay for it. We'll se

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Thanks Mark. Ok next obvious question (apologies for all of these but it seems you are the authority on Lightning here). Is the Lightning system limited in the number of hops there can be in the payment channel? I am looking at the initial Lightning slides presented in February and it looks like th

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

In the Lightning network it is assumed that the balances can always be settled on the blockchain if any of the parties along the channel has a problem. What if the fee on the settlement transactions is not high enough to enter the blockchain? You can't do replace-by-fee after the fact. Do the fees

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

Tom, you appear to be misunderstanding how lightning network and micropayment hub-and-spoke models in general work. > But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies). Nothing requires the payment hub to do this. On the contrary the fund

[bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

On 8/4/2015 4:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please. Consider how Bob will receive money using the Lightning Network. Bob receives a payment by applying a contract to his local payment channel, increasing the amount payable to him w