Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin
It is simpler than that; simple numbers. Bitcoin is volatile right now, not for fundamental architecture reasons, but for reasons why many other small issues are volatile. Low liquidity and a small issue implies that a single big player can easily the move the market. Further, it is volatile because common financial tools available elsewhere -- shorting, futures/options, etc. -- are not widely and easily available. None of these factors are special or specific to bitcoin. See http://garzikrants.blogspot.com/2013/11/solution-to-bitcoin-volatility.html However, this is getting WAY off-topic for a development mailing list. Ryan successfully trolled the list. Let's not further feed the trolls. On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Baz wrote: > Bitcoin's volatility is not a symptom of its architecture, but a reflection > of the collective knowledge of its future acceptance. Currently that > knowledge is based on very volatile sources: how some senator feels about it > this morning, which direction departments in the Chinese government are > leaning. The issue is that proof-of-work is missing from society's end. As > time goes on, laws, regulations and policies will start to form, people will > challenge them, they will be reviewed and updated, they will be challenged > again on different grounds, re-reviewed, and so on. Each of those > confirmations will make it that much harder to change earlier confirmations. > It won't matter anymore what some senator thinks this morning because she > will have months of hard-work ahead of her before she can affect any change. > It also doesn't matter if the rulings are positive or negative, just having > them will add stability to Bitcoin at some value between $0.0001 to $100,000 > per coin. > > > > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:38 AM, Jorge Timón wrote: >> >> On 12/10/13, Ryan Carboni wrote: >> > You're just closed minded. >> >> No, at least to persons have explained you why your proposal is not >> feasible. >> If you wanted to learn, you would have made questions on why those >> parts of your proposal are unfeasible. >> There have been many proposals about "stablecoins" in bitcointalk and >> other forums (for example, the "initial proposals" freicoin subforum). >> I have participated in several of them trying to find a solution and >> I'm now convinced that this is impossible to implement in a secure AND >> P2P system. >> >> This is off-topic for this forum, specially if (as you've shown to us) >> you are not interested in learning why this proposal is unfeasible. >> >> -- >> Jorge Timón >> >> http://freico.in/ >> >> >> -- >> Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK >> Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. >> Download it for free now! >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> ___ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin
Bitcoin's volatility is not a symptom of its architecture, but a reflection of the collective knowledge of its future acceptance. Currently that knowledge is based on very volatile sources: how some senator feels about it this morning, which direction departments in the Chinese government are leaning. The issue is that proof-of-work is missing from society's end. As time goes on, laws, regulations and policies will start to form, people will challenge them, they will be reviewed and updated, they will be challenged again on different grounds, re-reviewed, and so on. Each of those confirmations will make it that much harder to change earlier confirmations. It won't matter anymore what some senator thinks this morning because she will have months of hard-work ahead of her before she can affect any change. It also doesn't matter if the rulings are positive or negative, just having them will add stability to Bitcoin at some value between $0.0001 to $100,000 per coin. On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:38 AM, Jorge Timón wrote: > On 12/10/13, Ryan Carboni wrote: > > You're just closed minded. > > No, at least to persons have explained you why your proposal is not > feasible. > If you wanted to learn, you would have made questions on why those > parts of your proposal are unfeasible. > There have been many proposals about "stablecoins" in bitcointalk and > other forums (for example, the "initial proposals" freicoin subforum). > I have participated in several of them trying to find a solution and > I'm now convinced that this is impossible to implement in a secure AND > P2P system. > > This is off-topic for this forum, specially if (as you've shown to us) > you are not interested in learning why this proposal is unfeasible. > > -- > Jorge Timón > > http://freico.in/ > > > -- > Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK > Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. > Download it for free now! > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Popularity based mining (variable block reward)
This has been asked very recently: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development And a thousand times on bitcointalk. On 12/10/13, Jameson Lopp wrote: > > "no reliance on external data" ... "depending on various factors (coin > valuation/exchange rate" > > ಠ_ಠ > -- > Jameson Lopp > Software Engineer > Bronto Software > > On 12/10/2013 11:23 AM, Jan Kučera wrote: >> Basically there would be no reliance on external data as the network >> itself >> would decide on reward height and everybody node would be free to do so. >> Each network node would determine the popularity on its own depending on >> various factors (coin valuation/exchange rate, number of transactions and >> many others) and basically come up with its own block reward value. > > -- > Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT > organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance > affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your > Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics > Pro! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- Jorge Timón http://freico.in/ -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Popularity based mining (variable block reward)
"no reliance on external data" ... "depending on various factors (coin valuation/exchange rate" ಠ_ಠ -- Jameson Lopp Software Engineer Bronto Software On 12/10/2013 11:23 AM, Jan Kučera wrote: > Basically there would be no reliance on external data as the network itself > would decide on reward height and everybody node would be free to do so. > Each network node would determine the popularity on its own depending on > various factors (coin valuation/exchange rate, number of transactions and > many others) and basically come up with its own block reward value. -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] Popularity based mining (variable block reward)
Hi there, I am not sure this wont be considered as off-topic here, but I did not find a better place to ask. My question is - has anybody here thought about the idea of variable block rewards where mining would essentially be popularity based? I mean in terms either improving Bitcoin's protocol or forking a completely new coin? I think elasticity of money supply could bring more exchange rate stability to the hypothetical new coin (say there'd be a demand for such a coin). I am thinking of an alternative mining scheme where block reward would grow (or decrease) with popularity of the coin. The rationale behind this idea is to make an exchange rate more stable since greater interest will not result in higher coin price. Evidence clearly shows Bitcoin lacks some basic features of money and thus behaves more like a commodity (read gold). I have been watching the exchange rate for several months and the volatility simply does not seem to go away... so it seems like something has to change in order to get a more stable currency. I am not telling I want Bitcoin to implement this, I fully understand that a philosophy of "one coin = never changing features" can be present that is why I also speak about a fork. Basically there would be no reliance on external data as the network itself would decide on reward height and everybody node would be free to do so. Each network node would determine the popularity on its own depending on various factors (coin valuation/exchange rate, number of transactions and many others) and basically come up with its own block reward value. It would then want to see a new block being mined with such reward value. In case such a block is mined, it will include it in its own chain. There'd be some %s of tolerance for block reward value so that the system would not collapse. I may be completely wrong with my idea but am asking it this was spoken before and what opinions do developers have. Regards, Jan -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 31, Issue 25
Ryan Carboni wrote: And the economic parameters of bitcoin are not fixed in stone. If there needs to be a change, it will be messy but it could happen. Need is an awfully big word. One thing we are certain of is that some guy telling us all that we are wrong is nowhere near the "need" level. Besides, using Austrian precepts of inflation blurs the fact that deflation will still be possible under my proposal. Although amusingly enough Austrian-defined inflation is still occurring within Bitcoin, in fact faster then desired since blocks are being processed every seven minutes now as opposed to ten, and it's quite likely when 28nm ASIC miners are released that blocks will be processed every five minutes before the difficulty is adjusted again. Don't take this the wrong way, but things like this make it very hard for us to take you seriously. Please read up on how the system works, then read up on why we reject the argument from authority, then if you still have something to say, please do so in a proper venue. One option for this discussion is the bitcointalk.org forums, where you will find literally dozens of threads proposing the exact same thing you are proposing. This mailing list is NOT for political discussion. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin
On 12/10/13, Ryan Carboni wrote: > You're just closed minded. No, at least to persons have explained you why your proposal is not feasible. If you wanted to learn, you would have made questions on why those parts of your proposal are unfeasible. There have been many proposals about "stablecoins" in bitcointalk and other forums (for example, the "initial proposals" freicoin subforum). I have participated in several of them trying to find a solution and I'm now convinced that this is impossible to implement in a secure AND P2P system. This is off-topic for this forum, specially if (as you've shown to us) you are not interested in learning why this proposal is unfeasible. -- Jorge Timón http://freico.in/ -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 31, Issue 25
> > I believe that if there ever becomes a consensus that Bitcoin?s inflation > parameters were a show-stopper for the Bitcoin economy, that the power to > correct it lies with merchants, who would vote for changing the rules. I > believe they would do this not by changing Bitcoin, but by accepting, in > parallel, a brand new alt coin that reflects the consensus as to how the > inflation should be. I believe such an alt coin would have its genesis at > around the time that consensus moved toward accepting inflation, rather > than adopting the seignorage of some other alt coin out there today. > Agreed Mike. The economic parameters of Bitcoin are fixed in stone forever. Adding a monetary authority to Bitcoin is impossible and undesirable because the implicit contract of Bitcoin is that there would finally be a currency in which no one could mess around with. It would betray all prior holders. But these are ideas everyone is free to experiment with in new altcoins. If the lack of inflation in Bitcoin ever becomes a problem in day-to-day usage, such a parallel chain could become the de-facto cryptocurrency for spending. Or just maybe fiat already works well enough there... Wladimir -- -- How do you propose to use Bitcoin on a week-long vacation or for life in general, when it's value constantly swings up and down? Or for the average person's paycheck to swing up and down in value every week? Awfully hard to budget. There is also a catch-22, no altcoin can gain acceptance because the infrastructure for Bitcoin already exists, but without infrastructure, no altcoin can gain acceptance. Furthermore, the average merchant or consumer lacks the idealism or knowledge to bring about such changes in Bitcoin. It's a lofty idea that the average person will bring about such change when they don't bring about such change already in their own lives. It is ironic considering that there's no Bitcoin "chamber of commerce," just a few programmers in a development mailing list who direct the future of Bitcoin, and thus these merchants you speak of have little to no voice what so ever, with a few exceptions of merchants who do subscribe to this mailing list. What I am proposing makes sound economic sense. It is the only way to fix the speculation crisis. Just ask an economist. And the economic parameters of bitcoin are not fixed in stone. If there needs to be a change, it will be messy but it could happen. Besides, using Austrian precepts of inflation blurs the fact that deflation will still be possible under my proposal. Although amusingly enough Austrian-defined inflation is still occurring within Bitcoin, in fact faster then desired since blocks are being processed every seven minutes now as opposed to ten, and it's quite likely when 28nm ASIC miners are released that blocks will be processed every five minutes before the difficulty is adjusted again. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Dedicated server for bitcoin.org, your thoughts?
I've been lurking on this convo since it began, but I wanted to say thanks, theymos cheers to you all and yay for decentralization, wherever it leads. -odinn muh latest: http://github.com/ABISprotocol/ABIS > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013, at 03:11 PM, Drak wrote: > > It's not just about trust, there is the robustness factor: what if he > becomes sick, unavailable, hit by a bus? Others need the ability to > pickup and run with it. The control over the domain (including ability > to renew registration, alter nameservers) needs to be with more than > one person. That's why I suggest using the same people who have control > over the software project at sf,github > > > The bitcoin.org domain is controlled by me, Sirius, and an anonymous > person. Control will not be lost if Sirius becomes unavailable. > > SSL is probably a good idea, and it's probably also a good idea to > separate bitcoin.org from Github. I don't know that I trust Github. I'm > sure that you can find a sponsor for a dedicated server. Let us know if > DNS changes to bitcoin.org are required. > -- > Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK > Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. > Download it for free now! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Mike Caldwell wrote: > > I believe that if there ever becomes a consensus that Bitcoin’s inflation > parameters were a show-stopper for the Bitcoin economy, that the power to > correct it lies with merchants, who would vote for changing the rules. I > believe they would do this not by changing Bitcoin, but by accepting, in > parallel, a brand new alt coin that reflects the consensus as to how the > inflation should be. I believe such an alt coin would have its genesis at > around the time that consensus moved toward accepting inflation, rather > than adopting the seignorage of some other alt coin out there today. > Agreed Mike. The economic parameters of Bitcoin are fixed in stone forever. Adding a monetary authority to Bitcoin is impossible and undesirable because the implicit contract of Bitcoin is that there would finally be a currency in which no one could mess around with. It would betray all prior holders. But these are ideas everyone is free to experiment with in new altcoins. If the lack of inflation in Bitcoin ever becomes a problem in day-to-day usage, such a parallel chain could become the de-facto cryptocurrency for spending. Or just maybe fiat already works well enough there... Wladimir -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
