Re: Orca does not speak
Correct. Orca must be restarted, as the man page clearly says. Now the fact that that restart includes acquiring a new pid is to replacement like saying your new car has a replaced motor. You didn't replace the motor, you got a new car. Linux for blind general discussion writes: > At this point it doesn't matter. If orca has no process orca really > won't start or talk! > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 04:52:50 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > Someone on this list just quoted the Orca man page. > > > > It does not say what you are saying. > > > > Quoting the last seven words from the man page regarding the -r switch: > > > > "... start a new *orca* in its place." > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > orca when the -r switch is used replaces its last process with a new > > > process. > > > > > > On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:55:56 > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > > > > > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > > > > > > > > > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > > > > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > > > > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > > > > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > > > > > > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > > > > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
At this point it doesn't matter. If orca has no process orca really won't start or talk! On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 04:52:50 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: Linux for blind general discussion > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > Someone on this list just quoted the Orca man page. > > It does not say what you are saying. > > Quoting the last seven words from the man page regarding the -r switch: > > "... start a new *orca* in its place." > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > orca when the -r switch is used replaces its last process with a new > > process. > > > > On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:55:56 > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > > > > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > > > > > > > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > > > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > > > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > > > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > > > > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > > > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Someone on this list just quoted the Orca man page. It does not say what you are saying. Quoting the last seven words from the man page regarding the -r switch: "... start a new *orca* in its place." Linux for blind general discussion writes: > orca when the -r switch is used replaces its last process with a new > process. > > On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:55:56 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > > > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > > > > > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Hi, Didier: I think I and you are agreeing to disagree, which is certainly OK by me, too. It's very much a nit. Also, I don't think I would have even spoken up had the original posting mentioned Orca. But, it didn't. It mentioned some app called screen-reader. That little detail has gotten lost while we argue about replace vs restart. Perhaps my real complaint is renaming (or aliasing?) Orca as screen-reader. Who does that help? But, it's still a nit. I agree about moving on. Best, Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > I think that we disagree because we are not speaking of the same thing. > > When I write "replace orca" I mean: replace an instance of the orca > application living in RAM. > > When you write "restart orca" you mean: restart orca, application > usually stored on a mass storage device. > > To illustrate the difference: you can have two instances of orca > running at the same time (one for Janina, one for Didier), but you > have only one Orca installed in your system. > > This being said, I'd better spend my time preparing the next big > batch of updates for Slit than arguing here, even more so as it's > up to Joanie, not me, to decide of the option's name > > Best, > > Didier > > On 15/01/2019 18:55, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > >> Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > >> the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > >> > > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
orca when the -r switch is used replaces its last process with a new process. On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:55:56 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: Linux for blind general discussion > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > > > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I'll do my best to release it before my 70th birthday, Devin Didier On 15/01/2019 20:31, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Yes, I am eagerly awaiting said batch of updates, Didier. > > Devin Prater > >> On Jan 15, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Linux for blind general discussion >> wrote: >> >> I think that we disagree because we are not speaking of the same thing. >> >> When I write "replace orca" I mean: replace an instance of the orca >> application living in RAM. >> >> When you write "restart orca" you mean: restart orca, application >> usually stored on a mass storage device. >> >> To illustrate the difference: you can have two instances of orca >> running at the same time (one for Janina, one for Didier), but you >> have only one Orca installed in your system. >> >> This being said, I'd better spend my time preparing the next big >> batch of updates for Slit than arguing here, even more so as it's >> up to Joanie, not me, to decide of the option's name >> >> Best, >> >> Didier >> >> On 15/01/2019 18:55, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >>> OK, one more nit on this argument ... >>> >>> Linux for blind general discussion writes: Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. >>> The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once >>> the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to >>> it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's >>> an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. >>> >>> Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, >>> then perhaps replace might be appropriate. >>> >>> ___ >>> Blinux-list mailing list >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Yes, I am eagerly awaiting said batch of updates, Didier. Devin Prater > On Jan 15, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Linux for blind general discussion > wrote: > > I think that we disagree because we are not speaking of the same thing. > > When I write "replace orca" I mean: replace an instance of the orca > application living in RAM. > > When you write "restart orca" you mean: restart orca, application > usually stored on a mass storage device. > > To illustrate the difference: you can have two instances of orca > running at the same time (one for Janina, one for Didier), but you > have only one Orca installed in your system. > > This being said, I'd better spend my time preparing the next big > batch of updates for Slit than arguing here, even more so as it's > up to Joanie, not me, to decide of the option's name > > Best, > > Didier > > On 15/01/2019 18:55, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >> OK, one more nit on this argument ... >> >> Linux for blind general discussion writes: >>> Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from >>> the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. >>> >> The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once >> the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to >> it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's >> an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. >> >> Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, >> then perhaps replace might be appropriate. >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >> > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I think that we disagree because we are not speaking of the same thing. When I write "replace orca" I mean: replace an instance of the orca application living in RAM. When you write "restart orca" you mean: restart orca, application usually stored on a mass storage device. To illustrate the difference: you can have two instances of orca running at the same time (one for Janina, one for Didier), but you have only one Orca installed in your system. This being said, I'd better spend my time preparing the next big batch of updates for Slit than arguing here, even more so as it's up to Joanie, not me, to decide of the option's name Best, Didier On 15/01/2019 18:55, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > OK, one more nit on this argument ... > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: >> Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from >> the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. >> > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once > the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to > it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's > an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. > > Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, > then perhaps replace might be appropriate. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I'd guess that in speech most people would say re start Orca with the command "orca -r" or "orca --replace", and everyone would be and has been OK with that. This only came up when someone, who probably never read the man page for Orca, said that using the word "replace" for a command line switch was using English improperly and was imprecise. It seems to me that we're now talking details about what is technically meant by the words "replace" and "restart" in computer science. I think we've moved past whether we're using the English language correctly or not and whether we're being precise in a layman's view. IMHO, the Orca developer has bigger fish on her plate then whether a command line flag is properly using English or not, but if anyone feels strongly enough about this they should bring it up on the Orca list and have the command line flag and associated documentation updated. I may not use the word "replace" in this context myself, but I'm not going to quibble with another developer who chooses to use the word "replace" in this context. I think someone also mentioned how surprised they were that Orca has command line flags. I just assume everything in Linux has command line flags, and I'd be surprised to stumble across a command or an application that didn't have a set of command line flags. Just try typing your favorite command or application followed by the "--help" flag and see what you get. For example, try "firefox --help" or "google-chrome --help" or "rhythmbox --help". For completeness, here's what the Orca man page says about the replace flag: *--replace* Replace a currently running*orca* process. By default, if*orca* detects an existing *orca* process for the same session, it will not start a new*orca* process. This option will kill and cleanup after any existing*orca* process and then start a new *orca* in its place. On 1/15/19 7:27 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Maybe there's some subtle distinction I'm not catching, but saying it kills the running process and replaces it with a new one sounds like a convoluted way of saying it restarts the process, and I think most who aren't trying to justify the wording of the switch would say it restarts the program. Actually, if I remember correctly, the original answer to what the --replace switch does was "it restarts orca" or something to that effect, and the more detailed answer only came up when someone pointed out the odd wording. --replace might be technically correct, but it still strikes me as using a word in an unusual context most won't understand without explanation when a different word would get the meaning across without explanation. Kind of reminds me of how Americans sometimes have trouble understanding Brits because of common words that vary greatly in their common definition on opposite sides of the pond(and for all I know, replace might be commonly understood in this context in some part of the anglosphere other than my own). I understand the explanation for why the switch is --replace, but I'd probably still call it --restart if I was going to include such functionality in a program I wrote myself. On a more humorous note, without the context that orca -r restarts orca, I'd probably be wondering what a screen reader could possibly reverse or recurse since those are the most common things a -r or -R switch do. --Jeff ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Christopher (CJ) Chaltain at Gmail ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
OK, one more nit on this argument ... Linux for blind general discussion writes: > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > The reason this is flawed is that there is no longer a Orca running once the pid has been killed. Restarting Orca involves assigning a new pid to it for inter-process communications. But, that's not a replacement, it's an application restart that necessarily includes acquiring a process id. Now, if you could magically give Orca a new pid without killing the app, then perhaps replace might be appropriate. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Hmmm, a college level course in English might serve better. Linux for blind general discussion writes: > There are two subtle distinctions you're not catching. > First when a process gets killed and then replaced that process gives up > its original process id number and when the process is replaced, it gets > a new usually higher process id number. Sometimes another process may > conflict with the lower process id number and screen-reader/orca getting > a higher number escapes that conflict. So replace is absolutely > technically correct but you have to learn more about computer hardware > and computer software to understand that. A college class on computer > hardware/software can help in this regard. > > On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 08:27:03 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > Maybe there's some subtle distinction I'm not catching, but saying it > > kills the running process and replaces it with a new one sounds like a > > convoluted way of saying it restarts the process, and I think most who > > aren't trying to justify the wording of the switch would say it > > restarts the program. Actually, if I remember correctly, the original > > answer to what the --replace switch does was "it restarts orca" or > > something to that effect, and the more detailed answer only came up > > when someone pointed out the odd wording. > > > > --replace might be technically correct, but it still strikes me as > > using a word in an unusual context most won't understand without > > explanation when a different word would get the meaning across without > > explanation. Kind of reminds me of how Americans sometimes have > > trouble understanding Brits because of common words that vary greatly > > in their common definition on opposite sides of the pond(and for all I > > know, replace might be commonly understood in this context in some > > part of the anglosphere other than my own). > > > > I understand the explanation for why the switch is --replace, but I'd > > probably still call it --restart if I was going to include such > > functionality in a program I wrote myself. > > > > On a more humorous note, without the context that orca -r restarts > > orca, I'd probably be wondering what a screen reader could possibly > > reverse or recurse since those are the most common things a -r or -R > > switch do. > > > > --Jeff > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Well, and let me note where we do commonly use the term replace in computing. If I've been using mutt to read email and then suddently start using Thunderbird instead, we would say I replaced my email application. If I've been using bash and decided to switch to zsh, we would say I replaced bash with zsh, I replaced my shell. Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > Maybe there's some subtle distinction I'm not catching, but saying it > kills the running process and replaces it with a new one sounds like a > convoluted way of saying it restarts the process, and I think most who > aren't trying to justify the wording of the switch would say it > restarts the program. Actually, if I remember correctly, the original > answer to what the --replace switch does was "it restarts orca" or > something to that effect, and the more detailed answer only came up > when someone pointed out the odd wording. > > --replace might be technically correct, but it still strikes me as > using a word in an unusual context most won't understand without > explanation when a different word would get the meaning across without > explanation. Kind of reminds me of how Americans sometimes have > trouble understanding Brits because of common words that vary greatly > in their common definition on opposite sides of the pond(and for all I > know, replace might be commonly understood in this context in some > part of the anglosphere other than my own). > > I understand the explanation for why the switch is --replace, but I'd > probably still call it --restart if I was going to include such > functionality in a program I wrote myself. > > On a more humorous note, without the context that orca -r restarts > orca, I'd probably be wondering what a screen reader could possibly > reverse or recurse since those are the most common things a -r or -R > switch do. > > --Jeff > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
This is not convincing, Didier. Note my example of Control Alt Delete. We always call that restart. We never call it replace. It also gives us an entire new set of pids, even for the same apps. If I'm reading some text file with less and kill it with Control C, I can restart the same app reading the same file by pressing up arrow and enter. We always call that a restart. Apps are restarted in standard English usage. They're not replaced. Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > Hello Janina, > > technically your screen reader is a process in RAM, communicating > with other processes, like at-spi and speech-dispatcher. > > Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from > the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. > > Here is an example. > > In the a terminal I type this command: > > didier[~]$ ps -C orca > PID TTY TIME CMD > 26823 tty1 00:00:34 orca > > In the output, PID is the process identifier. > > Then, I press Alt+F2 and type orca -r > > After that: > PID TTY TIME CMD > 394 tty1 00:00:00 orca > didier[~]$ > > > So the previous process disappeared and we have a new one. > > So technically, it is indeed a replacement, not a restart: > I replaced a screen reader by a new one. > > Best, > > Didier > > > On 15/01/2019 08:02, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > I rely on "orca -r" quite a bit, actually. There are any number of > > conditions that can silence a running Orca that can be quickly remedied > > that way. Guess I never noticed I stood for "replace," and the > > juxtaposition of "screen-reader" really threw me. Replace my screen > > reader? With what? > > > > Best, > > > > Janina > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > >> For what it's worth, I'd agree --restart would be more intuitive and > >> self-documenting from the perspective of a native English speaker > >> assuming there isn't already a --restart switch that does something > >> different. That said, it's ultimately the developer's decision, it's > >> hardly the most esoteric command-line switch in existence, and > >> honestly, I'm kind of surprised a graphical application would even > >> have such a function built-in to its command-line syntax. > >> > >> ___ > >> Blinux-list mailing list > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com > >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
System admin classes if done for linux or unix cover process ids along with some system utilities to control them when that becomes necessary. Whether or not you've had a system admin class in Linux, if you've installed and have your own Linux system operating congratulations, you just got a Linux system Administrator's Hat. Most of those virtual hats have amateur status on them and some novice and a few have professional status. On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 11:48:57 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > I actually hold a BS in Computer Science, though I confess none of my > classes ever went into much detail regarding process IDs, not even the > ones that dealt with Linux(granted, even the Linux-heavy classes > seemed designed for students coming from a Windows background, and by > the time I finished my general education studies and started focusing > on my major, I had been a full-time Linux user for a few years. > > That said, while I can understand the reasoning, and might could even > agree it's the most reasonable choice from an internal, developer > facing perspective, I've been mostly approaching this discussion from > an external, end-user perspective, the explanation requires delving > into what should arguably be a black box from the end-user's side, and > if the wording confuses people who are likely well-above average in > being technologically literate, I feel bad for those who are learning > to use Linux or a computer for the first time. > > I won't begrudge a developer, not even a FOSS developer, for > optimizing their code for their own readibility and workflow, > especially when they expect few external contributions even if they > optimize for general readability, but I do think UI should strive for > minimizing the amount of technical knowledge the end user needs in > order to understand how to operate the software, especially for > something with as general use as a screen reader. > > But meh, I feel like both sides are repeating themselves, neither is > likely to change their opinion, and it's not likely I or anyone else > will make a personal fork of orca to change a pair of two-character > substrings in a single long switch. Wasn't even aware Orca had a > command-line interface prior to this thread and I usually just fix > issues with orca by either closing Firefox, which given my setup > triggers termination of orca and my x-session, or if that fails, > rebooting the computer, which is usually sufficient to fix minor > problems or point out problems big enough to restore a backup of my > root partition(though admittedly, that latter definitely isn't > something I'd expect a beginner to be able to do and I manage such > through bash scripts that save me from having to memorize the cryptic > syntax of partimage). > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I actually hold a BS in Computer Science, though I confess none of my classes ever went into much detail regarding process IDs, not even the ones that dealt with Linux(granted, even the Linux-heavy classes seemed designed for students coming from a Windows background, and by the time I finished my general education studies and started focusing on my major, I had been a full-time Linux user for a few years. That said, while I can understand the reasoning, and might could even agree it's the most reasonable choice from an internal, developer facing perspective, I've been mostly approaching this discussion from an external, end-user perspective, the explanation requires delving into what should arguably be a black box from the end-user's side, and if the wording confuses people who are likely well-above average in being technologically literate, I feel bad for those who are learning to use Linux or a computer for the first time. I won't begrudge a developer, not even a FOSS developer, for optimizing their code for their own readibility and workflow, especially when they expect few external contributions even if they optimize for general readability, but I do think UI should strive for minimizing the amount of technical knowledge the end user needs in order to understand how to operate the software, especially for something with as general use as a screen reader. But meh, I feel like both sides are repeating themselves, neither is likely to change their opinion, and it's not likely I or anyone else will make a personal fork of orca to change a pair of two-character substrings in a single long switch. Wasn't even aware Orca had a command-line interface prior to this thread and I usually just fix issues with orca by either closing Firefox, which given my setup triggers termination of orca and my x-session, or if that fails, rebooting the computer, which is usually sufficient to fix minor problems or point out problems big enough to restore a backup of my root partition(though admittedly, that latter definitely isn't something I'd expect a beginner to be able to do and I manage such through bash scripts that save me from having to memorize the cryptic syntax of partimage). ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
There are two subtle distinctions you're not catching. First when a process gets killed and then replaced that process gives up its original process id number and when the process is replaced, it gets a new usually higher process id number. Sometimes another process may conflict with the lower process id number and screen-reader/orca getting a higher number escapes that conflict. So replace is absolutely technically correct but you have to learn more about computer hardware and computer software to understand that. A college class on computer hardware/software can help in this regard. On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 08:27:03 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > Maybe there's some subtle distinction I'm not catching, but saying it > kills the running process and replaces it with a new one sounds like a > convoluted way of saying it restarts the process, and I think most who > aren't trying to justify the wording of the switch would say it > restarts the program. Actually, if I remember correctly, the original > answer to what the --replace switch does was "it restarts orca" or > something to that effect, and the more detailed answer only came up > when someone pointed out the odd wording. > > --replace might be technically correct, but it still strikes me as > using a word in an unusual context most won't understand without > explanation when a different word would get the meaning across without > explanation. Kind of reminds me of how Americans sometimes have > trouble understanding Brits because of common words that vary greatly > in their common definition on opposite sides of the pond(and for all I > know, replace might be commonly understood in this context in some > part of the anglosphere other than my own). > > I understand the explanation for why the switch is --replace, but I'd > probably still call it --restart if I was going to include such > functionality in a program I wrote myself. > > On a more humorous note, without the context that orca -r restarts > orca, I'd probably be wondering what a screen reader could possibly > reverse or recurse since those are the most common things a -r or -R > switch do. > > --Jeff > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Maybe there's some subtle distinction I'm not catching, but saying it kills the running process and replaces it with a new one sounds like a convoluted way of saying it restarts the process, and I think most who aren't trying to justify the wording of the switch would say it restarts the program. Actually, if I remember correctly, the original answer to what the --replace switch does was "it restarts orca" or something to that effect, and the more detailed answer only came up when someone pointed out the odd wording. --replace might be technically correct, but it still strikes me as using a word in an unusual context most won't understand without explanation when a different word would get the meaning across without explanation. Kind of reminds me of how Americans sometimes have trouble understanding Brits because of common words that vary greatly in their common definition on opposite sides of the pond(and for all I know, replace might be commonly understood in this context in some part of the anglosphere other than my own). I understand the explanation for why the switch is --replace, but I'd probably still call it --restart if I was going to include such functionality in a program I wrote myself. On a more humorous note, without the context that orca -r restarts orca, I'd probably be wondering what a screen reader could possibly reverse or recurse since those are the most common things a -r or -R switch do. --Jeff ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Hello Janina, technically your screen reader is a process in RAM, communicating with other processes, like at-spi and speech-dispatcher. Typing "orca -r", you kill this process (i.e., you remove it from the RAM), and you replace it with a new one. Here is an example. In the a terminal I type this command: didier[~]$ ps -C orca PID TTY TIME CMD 26823 tty1 00:00:34 orca In the output, PID is the process identifier. Then, I press Alt+F2 and type orca -r After that: PID TTY TIME CMD 394 tty1 00:00:00 orca didier[~]$ So the previous process disappeared and we have a new one. So technically, it is indeed a replacement, not a restart: I replaced a screen reader by a new one. Best, Didier On 15/01/2019 08:02, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > I rely on "orca -r" quite a bit, actually. There are any number of > conditions that can silence a running Orca that can be quickly remedied > that way. Guess I never noticed I stood for "replace," and the > juxtaposition of "screen-reader" really threw me. Replace my screen > reader? With what? > > Best, > > Janina > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: >> For what it's worth, I'd agree --restart would be more intuitive and >> self-documenting from the perspective of a native English speaker >> assuming there isn't already a --restart switch that does something >> different. That said, it's ultimately the developer's decision, it's >> hardly the most esoteric command-line switch in existence, and >> honestly, I'm kind of surprised a graphical application would even >> have such a function built-in to its command-line syntax. >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I rely on "orca -r" quite a bit, actually. There are any number of conditions that can silence a running Orca that can be quickly remedied that way. Guess I never noticed I stood for "replace," and the juxtaposition of "screen-reader" really threw me. Replace my screen reader? With what? Best, Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > For what it's worth, I'd agree --restart would be more intuitive and > self-documenting from the perspective of a native English speaker > assuming there isn't already a --restart switch that does something > different. That said, it's ultimately the developer's decision, it's > hardly the most esoteric command-line switch in existence, and > honestly, I'm kind of surprised a graphical application would even > have such a function built-in to its command-line syntax. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Well, it's a nit in any case. The semantic problem is triggered by renaming Orca to "screen-reader," e.g. the following makes more sense: orca --replace However, the cleanup you note should simply be good practice regardless. I see no way that "replace" suggests cleanup on restart, whereas "restart" suggests no cleanup. That just doesn't make sense. PS: Does a Ctrl-Alt-Del perform a replace? Best, Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > Using the word "replace" for the switch is not poor English and is precise. > If you really just wanted to restart Orca, you wouldn't need a command line > switch at all. Here's what the "replace" switch does, taken from the Orca > man page: > > >*--replace* > Replace a currently running*orca* process. By default, > if*orca* detects an existing > *orca* process for the same session, it will not start a > new*orca* process. This > option will kill and cleanup after any existing*orca* process > and then start a new > *orca* in its place. > > On 1/14/19 7:41 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > To your first question, yes I am unless that got changed in mate when I > > wasn't looking. As to your second question, I did not write that > > software. > > > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:36:46 > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > I guess you're telling me that mate installs an executable called > > > screen-reader? A very questionable naming, imo, given that we have > > > several in the Linux ecosystem. > > > > > > And, if the -- need is to restart the screen-reader, why is the switch > > > not --restart. Saying --replace is poor language use--poor English, to > > > be more precise. > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. > > > > On > > > > Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 > > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > > > Interesting, What does: > > > > > > > > > > screen-reader --replace > > > > > > > > > > do? Please explain. > > > > > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit > > > > > > f4 > > > > > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > > > > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only > > > > > > hit > > > > > > it once and that should help. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > > > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. > > > > > > > It looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > > > > > > applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca > > > > > > > does not speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as > > > > > > > I go into Nate orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have > > > > > > > ideas in how to fix it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > >
Re: Orca does not speak
For what it's worth, I'd agree --restart would be more intuitive and self-documenting from the perspective of a native English speaker assuming there isn't already a --restart switch that does something different. That said, it's ultimately the developer's decision, it's hardly the most esoteric command-line switch in existence, and honestly, I'm kind of surprised a graphical application would even have such a function built-in to its command-line syntax. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Using the word "replace" for the switch is not poor English and is precise. If you really just wanted to restart Orca, you wouldn't need a command line switch at all. Here's what the "replace" switch does, taken from the Orca man page: *--replace* Replace a currently running*orca* process. By default, if*orca* detects an existing *orca* process for the same session, it will not start a new*orca* process. This option will kill and cleanup after any existing*orca* process and then start a new *orca* in its place. On 1/14/19 7:41 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: To your first question, yes I am unless that got changed in mate when I wasn't looking. As to your second question, I did not write that software. On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:36:46 From: Linux for blind general discussion To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Orca does not speak I guess you're telling me that mate installs an executable called screen-reader? A very questionable naming, imo, given that we have several in the Linux ecosystem. And, if the -- need is to restart the screen-reader, why is the switch not --restart. Saying --replace is poor language use--poor English, to be more precise. Linux for blind general discussion writes: It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. On Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 From: Linux for blind general discussion To: Linux for blind general discussion Subject: Re: Orca does not speak Interesting, What does: screen-reader --replace do? Please explain. Linux for blind general discussion writes: First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit it once and that should help. On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 From: Linux for blind general discussion To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Orca does not speak Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. An help would be appreciated. Sincerely, Michael maslo ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Christopher (CJ) Chaltain at Gmail ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
As root please do: pacman -Ss pygobject-3 If that comes back as uninstalled do: pacman -S pygobject-3 . Then start mate and control-windows-s and find out if orca starts talking. An individual was trying to build orca on a debian system and couldn't build orca because that package wasn't pulled in as a dependency even though orca apparently requires the pygobject-3 package. That's the responsibility of the package builder on archlinux who builds orca and if that person builds the package and/or does not know once the package gets built it is essential to test and make sure the package comes up talking before putting the package into the repository, then there's no way that package is going to talk. Right now, I don't know who is orca's package builder on archlinux. On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:41:05 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: Linux for blind general discussion > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > To your first question, yes I am unless that got changed in mate when I > wasn't looking. As to your second question, I did not write that > software. > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:36:46 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > I guess you're telling me that mate installs an executable called > > screen-reader? A very questionable naming, imo, given that we have > > several in the Linux ecosystem. > > > > And, if the -- need is to restart the screen-reader, why is the switch > > not --restart. Saying --replace is poor language use--poor English, to > > be more precise. > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. > > > On > > > Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > Interesting, What does: > > > > > > > > screen-reader --replace > > > > > > > > do? Please explain. > > > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > > > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > > > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only > > > > > hit > > > > > it once and that should help. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. > > > > > > It looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > > > > > applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does > > > > > > not speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go > > > > > > into Nate orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas > > > > > > in how to fix it. > > > > > > > > > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
To your first question, yes I am unless that got changed in mate when I wasn't looking. As to your second question, I did not write that software. On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:36:46 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > I guess you're telling me that mate installs an executable called > screen-reader? A very questionable naming, imo, given that we have > several in the Linux ecosystem. > > And, if the -- need is to restart the screen-reader, why is the switch > not --restart. Saying --replace is poor language use--poor English, to > be more precise. > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. > > On > > Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > > > Interesting, What does: > > > > > > screen-reader --replace > > > > > > do? Please explain. > > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > > > > it once and that should help. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It > > > > > looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > > > > applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does > > > > > not speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go > > > > > into Nate orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in > > > > > how to fix it. > > > > > > > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I guess you're telling me that mate installs an executable called screen-reader? A very questionable naming, imo, given that we have several in the Linux ecosystem. And, if the -- need is to restart the screen-reader, why is the switch not --restart. Saying --replace is poor language use--poor English, to be more precise. Linux for blind general discussion writes: > It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. > On > Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: Linux for blind general discussion > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > Interesting, What does: > > > > screen-reader --replace > > > > do? Please explain. > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > > > it once and that should help. > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It > > > > looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > > > applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not > > > > speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate > > > > orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix > > > > it. > > > > > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I don't run Mate, but "screen-reader --replace" is unrecognized on my system. I use "orca --replace" to restart Orca. On 1/13/19 9:16 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: It forces a restart of screen-reader after screen-reader is shut down. On Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 From: Linux for blind general discussion To: Linux for blind general discussion Subject: Re: Orca does not speak Interesting, What does: screen-reader --replace do? Please explain. Linux for blind general discussion writes: First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit it once and that should help. On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 From: Linux for blind general discussion To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Orca does not speak Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. An help would be appreciated. Sincerely, Michael maslo ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Christopher (CJ) Chaltain at Gmail ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
I wonder if lightdm could be causing problems. I know when I had orca running in mate on archlinux I used gdm and disabled lightdm. To have gdm, you'll need to install the gdm package. The canonical graphical user interface tutorial podcast for archlinux hasn't been done yet for some reason. It was something that was going to be done by the person who did the original talkingarch install tutorial podcast but hasn't been done yet. We haven't got a similar podcast for an accessible install of gentoo even just to the command line interface environment yet either. On Sun, 13 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:32:05 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: Linux for blind general discussion > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > Interesting, What does: > > screen-reader --replace > > do? Please explain. > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > > it once and that should help. > > > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It > > > looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > > applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not > > > speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate > > > orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. > > > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
It depend on which distribution, Janina. On Slint you can have speech with espeakup and using Orca in a graphical environment like Mate. IIRC this is also true for Vinux. So, all depends on the settings of speech-dispatcher, Alsa and PulseAudio. Didier On 13/01/2019 13:33, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > And, you may need to figure out how to have both espeakup and > speech-dispatcher working at the same time. In my experience they don't > like each other very much. > > It's an old argument we keep having on this, and many related Linux > lists. Sad, but true. > > Janina > > Linux for blind general discussion writes: >> You may need to install speechdispatcher so screen-reader/orca can use >> it to speak. >> >> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >> >>> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:20:53 >>> From: Linux for blind general discussion >>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com >>> Subject: Re: Orca does not speak >>> >>> Hello, >>> I tried and installed both mate and gnone. I signed into both desktop and >>> had no speech. I verified with my son that orca was turned on. The volume >>> sound is heard but orca has no sound. >>> >>> How do I fix this problem? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Michael maslo >>> >>>> On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:44, Linux for blind general discussion >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I installed >>>> Nate extra already.. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Michael maslo >>>> >>>>> On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 >>>>> just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see >>>>> what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit >>>>> it once and that should help. >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 >>>>>> From: Linux for blind general discussion >>>>>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com >>>>>> Subject: Orca does not speak >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It >>>>>> looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many >>>>>> applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not >>>>>> speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate >>>>>> orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> An help would be appreciated. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael maslo >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> ___ >>>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> Blinux-list mailing list >>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Blinux-list mailing list >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >> >> -- >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
And, you may need to figure out how to have both espeakup and speech-dispatcher working at the same time. In my experience they don't like each other very much. It's an old argument we keep having on this, and many related Linux lists. Sad, but true. Janina Linux for blind general discussion writes: > You may need to install speechdispatcher so screen-reader/orca can use > it to speak. > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:20:53 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > > > Hello, > > I tried and installed both mate and gnone. I signed into both desktop and > > had no speech. I verified with my son that orca was turned on. The volume > > sound is heard but orca has no sound. > > > > How do I fix this problem? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:44, Linux for blind general discussion > > > wrote: > > > > > > With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I > > > installed Nate extra already.. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Michael maslo > > > > > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > >> just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > >> what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > > >> it once and that should help. > > >> > > >>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > >>> From: Linux for blind general discussion > > >>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > >>> Subject: Orca does not speak > > >>> > > >>> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It > > >>> looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > > >>> applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not > > >>> speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate > > >>> orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix > > >>> it. > > >>> > > >>> An help would be appreciated. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Sincerely, > > >>> > > >>> Michael maslo > > >>> > > >>> ___ > > >>> Blinux-list mailing list > > >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com > > >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > >>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> ___ > > >> Blinux-list mailing list > > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com > > >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Interesting, What does: screen-reader --replace do? Please explain. Linux for blind general discussion writes: > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > it once and that should help. > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > > From: Linux for blind general discussion > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > > Subject: Orca does not speak > > > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks > > different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on > > it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in > > the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned > > on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. > > > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Michael maslo > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
You may need to install speechdispatcher so screen-reader/orca can use it to speak. On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:20:53 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > Hello, > I tried and installed both mate and gnone. I signed into both desktop and had > no speech. I verified with my son that orca was turned on. The volume sound > is heard but orca has no sound. > > How do I fix this problem? > > Sincerely, > > Michael maslo > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:44, Linux for blind general discussion > > wrote: > > > > With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I installed > > Nate extra already.. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Michael maslo > > > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion > >> wrote: > >> > >> First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > >> just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > >> what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > >> it once and that should help. > >> > >>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > >>> > >>> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > >>> From: Linux for blind general discussion > >>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com > >>> Subject: Orca does not speak > >>> > >>> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It > >>> looks different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many > >>> applications on it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not > >>> speak. Espeakup in the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate > >>> orca although turned on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. > >>> > >>> An help would be appreciated. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sincerely, > >>> > >>> Michael maslo > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> Blinux-list mailing list > >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com > >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> ___ > >> Blinux-list mailing list > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com > >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Mate-extra is a group which means a set of packages. In archlinux groups exist along with packages and not all packages are in groups. To find what groups are available as root pacman -Sg will list them. On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:44:38 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Orca does not speak > > With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I installed > Nate extra already.. > > Sincerely, > > Michael maslo > > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion > > wrote: > > > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > > it once and that should help. > > > >> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > >> > >> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > >> From: Linux for blind general discussion > >> To: blinux-list@redhat.com > >> Subject: Orca does not speak > >> > >> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks > >> different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on > >> it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in > >> the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned > >> on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. > >> > >> An help would be appreciated. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> Michael maslo > >> > >> ___ > >> Blinux-list mailing list > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com > >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > >> > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
Hello, I tried and installed both mate and gnone. I signed into both desktop and had no speech. I verified with my son that orca was turned on. The volume sound is heard but orca has no sound. How do I fix this problem? Sincerely, Michael maslo > On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:44, Linux for blind general discussion > wrote: > > With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I installed > Nate extra already.. > > Sincerely, > > Michael maslo > >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion >> wrote: >> >> First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 >> just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see >> what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit >> it once and that should help. >> >>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >>> >>> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 >>> From: Linux for blind general discussion >>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com >>> Subject: Orca does not speak >>> >>> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks >>> different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on >>> it. The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in >>> the command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned >>> on does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. >>> >>> An help would be appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Michael maslo >>> >>> ___ >>> Blinux-list mailing list >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >> >> -- >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
With should I install mate - extra group or just Nate - extra? I installed Nate extra already.. Sincerely, Michael maslo > On Jan 11, 2019, at 18:34, Linux for blind general discussion > wrote: > > First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 > just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see > what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit > it once and that should help. > >> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >> >> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 >> From: Linux for blind general discussion >> To: blinux-list@redhat.com >> Subject: Orca does not speak >> >> Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks >> different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on it. >> The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in the >> command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned on >> does not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. >> >> An help would be appreciated. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Michael maslo >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >> > > -- > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca does not speak
First install the mate-extra group. Next after you start mate, hit f4 just once. Then try running screen-reader --replace and see what happens. That f4 key toggles accessibility on and off so only hit it once and that should help. On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:09:04 > From: Linux for blind general discussion > To: blinux-list@redhat.com > Subject: Orca does not speak > > Hello everyone,. I finally have maid installed on my arch system. It looks > different than ubuntu Nate because it does not have many applications on it. > The major problem I am having is that orca does not speak. Espeakup in the > command line works but as soon as I go into Nate orca although turned on does > not work. Anyone have ideas in how to fix it. > > An help would be appreciated. > > > > Sincerely, > > Michael maslo > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
