Re: Religious freedom
On Aug 31, 2006, at 7:50 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 8/31/06, Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought it had been determined that they are teal . . . Take your fascist determination and get out of here! It is a basic human right for people to believe that the unicorns are whatever color they like. I mean whatever color the people like, not whatever color the unicorns like. Pink Unicorns are completely colorblind. Contrary to the idea of colorblindness that some people have, in which everything is believed to appear in shades of grey, these particular Unicorns see everything in shades of pink, (hence their name). When they appear to humans (which is exceedingly rare), they are reported have a teal hue (hence, the confusion as to their color) , but that is mostly due to our limited ability to see in the ultrared and infraviolet bands. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: On scientology
David Hobby wrote: How is a cult which ruins peoples lives a joke, a joke which makes its high council VERY rich and a joke which is one of the most dangerous cults in the world. O.K., if it's purely a money making venture, why all the wacky UFO doctrine? Seriously, with all that money, L. Ron could have hired a GOOD writer, who would have come up with something guaranteed to work better than the Xenu volcano story! I'm going with joke... Did you read the previous messages? It's a joke that got out of control - probably because L.Ron had made so much money with this joke, that he thought it better to live with the money and let the next generations figure that out. Maybe he wrote some criptic message telling that it was a joke, but we will only know some decades after his death. IIRC, someone also mentioned that the Gor masterpiece was also a joke that got out of control. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religious freedom
On 1 Sep 2006, at 5:47AM, Ritu wrote: William T Goodall wrote: In rural India little girls are still sold to temples as sex slaves In rural India little girls are sold as maids/bonded slaves, Devadasis are well documented. See here for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/ 2071612.stm sex slaves to European paedophiles [a British guy was the latest one to be convicted]. Obviously, all Europeans are evil and must be eradicated. There's lots of evil in the world. I'm talking about the part that's caused by religion. and women still throw themselves on their husband's funeral pyres. Throw *themselves*? For shame! In the three documented cases in the last couple of decades, the Indian authorities have assumed that the fact that these women struggled and were forced back on the pyres actually meant that their in-laws compelled them to commit Sati. That is what these families were prosecuted for. Jumped or thrown makes no difference to my argument. It's still religion that killed them. That's religion despite the British Empire's attempts to suppress it. British Empire *never* tried to suppress religion. It was very much an evangelical Empire, and the incessant attempts to get the heathens to convert into Christianity were part of what sparked the Mutiny. I guess you are not terribly interested in India History, but you can try reading Flashman. Fraser's research is excellent, and after reading his books you'd never again make claims like 'British Empire tried to suppress religion'. I was referring to the Empire's actions to suppress things like Thuggee, Sati and child prostitution that are the symptoms of the pernicious obnoxious evil of religion. As for Indian history - I have read _Midnight's Children_ :- -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religious freedom
Ritu wrote: I guess you are not terribly interested in India History, Come on, please! 1 Giga people, millions of ethnicities, 6000 years of recorded history, some other thousand years of archeological history... It's _impossible_ for anyone to know India History. The better we can handle is a general idea. Don't blame WTG for not knowing some facts. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religious freedom
William T Goodall wrote: In rural India little girls are still sold to temples as sex slaves In rural India little girls are sold as maids/bonded slaves, Devadasis are well documented. See here for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/ 2071612.stm Oh, I wasn't denying their existence. One of my favourite movies deal with the issue, and I am avidly waiting for the English translation of a Tamil Devdasi's autobiography. sex slaves to European paedophiles [a British guy was the latest one to be convicted]. Obviously, all Europeans are evil and must be eradicated. There's lots of evil in the world. I'm talking about the part that's caused by religion. And I was merely pointing out that the same evil exists even without the trappings of religion. :) and women still throw themselves on their husband's funeral pyres. Throw *themselves*? For shame! In the three documented cases in the last couple of decades, the Indian authorities have assumed that the fact that these women struggled and were forced back on the pyres actually meant that their in-laws compelled them to commit Sati. That is what these families were prosecuted for. Jumped or thrown makes no difference to my argument. It's still religion that killed them. Jumped or thrown makes all the difference to my argument. Jumped would have supported your thesis and a disturbed mind, thrown means cold-blooded murder. And the murder wasn't committed by religion but by their in-laws. That's religion despite the British Empire's attempts to suppress it. British Empire *never* tried to suppress religion. It was very much an evangelical Empire, and the incessant attempts to get the heathens to convert into Christianity were part of what sparked the Mutiny. I guess you are not terribly interested in India History, but you can try reading Flashman. Fraser's research is excellent, and after reading his books you'd never again make claims like 'British Empire tried to suppress religion'. I was referring to the Empire's actions to suppress things like Thuggee, Sati and child prostitution that are the symptoms of the pernicious obnoxious evil of religion. Only a few aspects of one religion, and that too only after a lot of people of that religion petitioned the Governor-General to pass a law to that effect. Incidentally, Akbar was the one who started the attempts to outlaw child prostitution, child marriage, sati, and he was the founder of a religion. Apparently one doesn't have to be an atheist to recognise and try to stop perversions of the same. So if religion is evil because some can and do pervert it, surely it must also be good when some move to address these perversions? As for Indian history - I have read _Midnight's Children_ :- *g* And I have never been able to finish that book. I find Rushdie quite a pretentious bore. But I really can't recommend the Flashman series highly enough. They are laugh-out-loud funny, and Flashy certainly isn't a pretentious bore. :) And he mocks religion often enough to keep you happy... Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religious freedom
Alberto Monteiro wrote: I guess you are not terribly interested in India History, Come on, please! 1 Giga people, millions of ethnicities, 6000 years of recorded history, some other thousand years of archeological history... It's _impossible_ for anyone to know India History. The better we can handle is a general idea. Don't blame WTG for not knowing some facts. I wasn't blaming him - I was guessing. I have no way of knowing if WTG is, or isn't, interested in Indian History, and I don't mind it if people don't know, Indians and foreigners alike. I certainly know only a bit about bits of it. If I'd have had any expectations of WTG knowing these details, they would have been based on the fact that the period he was refering to not only spanned a mere 190 years, it was also a historical experience his country shares with mine. But since I already have been told that the British Raj isn't taught in extensive detail in Britain, I had no such expectations. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
history is evil, why it must be eradicated [was: Religious freedom]
Ritu wrote: If I'd have had any expectations of WTG knowing these details, they would have been based on the fact that the period he was refering to not only spanned a mere 190 years, it was also a historical experience his country shares with mine. But it doesn't mean that it was equally important for both countries, does it? Also, National History tends to stress the Glorious aspects of the past, not the heinous. India was the good guy, England the bad guy, so Indians study that part of History, Englishmen don't. For example, I was surprised that Nederlanders had no idea about the _long_ time .nl occupied a huge part of Brazil's Northeast. Also, I imagine that Africans study the bleed that brazilian import of slaves caused them, and Uruguay classes talk a lot about their war of independence [which here is merely a footnote]. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: history is evil, why it must be eradicated [was: Religious freedom]
Alberto Monteiro wrote: If I'd have had any expectations of WTG knowing these details, they would have been based on the fact that the period he was refering to not only spanned a mere 190 years, it was also a historical experience his country shares with mine. But it doesn't mean that it was equally important for both countries, does it? I don't think I ever expected that. :) I have long accepted the fact of many narratives of one event, and the differences can usually be traced to perspective. Which also governs the 'importance' bit. For example, I was surprised that Nederlanders had no idea about the _long_ time .nl occupied a huge part of Brazil's Northeast. Also, I imagine that Africans study the bleed that brazilian import of slaves caused them, and Uruguay classes talk a lot about their war of independence [which here is merely a footnote]. True enough. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: history is evil, why it must be eradicated [was: Religious freedom]
On 1 Sep 2006, at 3:42PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Ritu wrote: If I'd have had any expectations of WTG knowing these details, they would have been based on the fact that the period he was refering to not only spanned a mere 190 years, it was also a historical experience his country shares with mine. But it doesn't mean that it was equally important for both countries, does it? Also, National History tends to stress the Glorious aspects of the past, not the heinous. India was the good guy, England the bad guy, so Indians study that part of History, Englishmen don't. And us Scots don't study it either from what I can recall of high- school history classes. There were some Romans, Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Acts of Union of 1707. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ And yes, OSX is marvelous. Its merest bootlace, Windows is not worthy to kiss. - David Brin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religious freedom
Ritu said: But since I already have been told that the British Raj isn't taught in extensive detail in Britain, I had no such expectations. Nothing is taught in extensive detail in Britain, alas. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religious freedom
On 1 Sep 2006, at 5:32PM, Richard Baker wrote: Ritu said: But since I already have been told that the British Raj isn't taught in extensive detail in Britain, I had no such expectations. Nothing is taught in extensive detail in Britain, alas. Britain is moving to the American model where everybody 'graduates' from high school and basic literacy and numeracy are university level subjects. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured [Hitler's] success, notably in Protestant areas. - Fritz Stern, professor emeritus of history at Columbia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religious freedom
On 1 Sep 2006 at 13:40, William T Goodall wrote: On 1 Sep 2006, at 5:47AM, Ritu wrote: William T Goodall wrote: In rural India little girls are still sold to temples as sex slaves In rural India little girls are sold as maids/bonded slaves, Devadasis are well documented. See here for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/ 2071612.stm sex slaves to European paedophiles [a British guy was the latest one to be convicted]. Obviously, all Europeans are evil and must be eradicated. There's lots of evil in the world. I'm talking about the part that's caused by religion. No, it's caused by people. Religion is the excuse used. For example, the Israeli-Arab wars...entirely about water and land rights. NOT about religions or peoples. Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. Aggressive atheists cannot be trusted since they believe right and wrong are entirely relative and their ethics are based on no firm principles except intolerance and the hatred of the religious. Andrew Crystall ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: (S)triangulated (Collapse, Chapter 3)
Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what relevance is there here for us? Pitcairn and Henderson remind me of the lonely outposts in outer space we read about in science fiction novels. Is there some resource supplied to us by lonely outposts that we could hardly live without? Would we go to war over this resource? If we were denied cheap access to it would there be tremendous political consequences? Upheaval and civil strife? I presume you are asking rhetorically, since oil certainly springs to mind...The interwoven fate of those 3 islands isn't quite a metaphor for us, however, since we could (with some difficulty and a great deal of expense) use more coal for heating, convert more corn or biomass to ethanol or diesel equivalent (not cheaply!), etc. They, OTOH, had no resources to cross the ocean once cut off from Mangarea (!sp!), which supplied the big canoes IIRC. Still, disruption in our oil supply does create anxiety, expense and distrust in the government; if all oil imports were just cut abruptly, it would seriously discommode our economy, and there might be severe food shortages - riots. But I think that we'd manage to get some oil from somebody else, albeit less and for a huge price. I'm going to have to read up about the _Bounty_, since I never even read the book. Debbi who finally got a copy of Collapse from the library, but having to return it soon, has sped through the whole thing whoosh! __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religious freedom
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Pensinger Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:52 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Religious freedom Alberto wrote: Doug Pensinger wrote: Anyone reasonable can see that instance of a subset is not the whole. JDG is an atheist. JDG is a devout Catholic. It was a typo. JDG is so religious, that he is almost a Prophet - at least, he is the best listmember to predict the future. If I could find my posts (late summer-early fall, 2002) on what I thought was going to happen in Iraq you might think I was prescient as well. And Dan as well(wherever he is.) I was working rather hard for a couple of weeks. Then, last Saturday, my Dad died at the age of 90...and I just got back from the funeral...and helping my mom. Also, it looks as though I won't be able to get questions to Gautam's friend. She and he talked about 9-11 conspiracy theories when the poll indicating that ~35% of Americans thought the US government was somehow involved with the 9-11 attacks came out. She was quite clear in voicing her disdain for those who give any credence to this theoryas well as clear in her questioning of the methodology of this poll. Anyways, she's not in the mood to answer any questions from skeptics. Sorry Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Jobs, not trees! (Collapse, Chapter 2)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Pensinger Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 12:10 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Jobs, not trees! (Collapse, Chapter 2) On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:51:06 -, jdiebremse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for the connection of Katrina to global warming, I think that advocates of doing something about global warming do themselves no favors by making such arguments. After all, these arguments connecting specific weather incidents to climate change are very vulnerable to being counterpointed by the next unseasonable cold snap or snowstorm. For example, we're having a very quiet hurricane season so far this year - if this trend holds up, will that be any sort of argument that global warming is under control? And if not, then the same must be said for Katrina The effect warming has is on the intensity of the storms, not their frequency. While it can be argued that the recent pattern of intense storms is not a result of warming; that it is part of a natural cycle, There is an even better explanation. The advent of world wide satellite coverage of tropical storms, and hurricanes/typhoons has increased our ability to categorize these storms as severe. We do not have a good worldwide baseline from 30 years ago with which to compare. Further, there is a good deal of dispute concerning satellite classifications of these storms. A good site, run by a Phd meteorologist who was the meteorologist on board the hurricane hunter that almost went down in hurricane Hugo, is at: Here's a relevant quote from his August 11th blog entries: quote n China, the death toll has risen to over 100 in the wake of Supertyphoon Saomai, which slammed into the coast south of Shanghai Thursday as a Category 4 storm with 135 mph winds. The death toll will no doubt rise higher today as the remains of Saomai spread heavy rains through the same region of China hit by Tropical Storm Bilis, which killed more than 600 people last month. The media is calling Saomai the worst typhoon to hit China in 50 years, but there is some dispute about just how strong the storm was at landfall. Here is comparison of intensities from three different agencies at Saomai's landfall at 12 GMT August 10: U.S. Joint Typhoon Warning Center: 1-min sustained winds of 135 mph, Cat 4. Japan Meteorological Agency: 1-min sustained winds of 100 mph, Cat 2. Hong Kong Observatory: 1-min sustained winds of 115 mph, Cat 3. So, these three agencies all using the same satellite data couldn't agree on the strength of this typhoon within two Saffir-Simpson categories! This underscores the difficulty of trying to determine if global warming is causing an increase in Category 4 and 5 hurricanes--even today with much better tools and training, experts still can't agree on storm intensities with the accuracy needed for such a study. This was discussed in more detail in a paper published this year by Kamahori, Yamazaki, Mannoji, and Takahashi of the the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) in the on-line journal Scientific Online Letters on the Atmosphere - a new journal produced by the Meteorological Society of Japan. The study compares typhoon intensities in the Northwest Pacific since 1977 as compiled by the Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC) and the JMA. The JTWC data was used in the famous Webster et. al study from 2005 that found a worldwide 80% increase in Category 4 and 5 tropical cyclones since 1970. A key element of their conclusions was the data from the Northwest Pacific, which make up about 50% of global Category 4 and 5 storms. The JMA group found that using JTWC's dataset, the number of days when a Category 4 or 5 typhoon was present increased from about 10 per year in 1977-90, to 17 per year during 1991-2004--a 70% increase. However, the JMA data for the same time period showed a 40% decrease in Category 4 and 5 typhoon days. The authors concluded, We do not have sufficient evidence to judge which dataset is reasonable. I would have to agree--until we get a coordinated major re-analysis effort of all the tropical cyclone data for the globe, it is dangerous to make conclusions about whether global warming is causing an increase in tropical cyclone intensities. I think it is likely there has been some increase, but it is nowhere nearly as large as the 80% increase reported by Webster et. al. Jeff Masters end quote Elsewhere he quotes a NOAA model/analysis that indicates that global warming up to this point should cause about a 1 mph increase in hurricane force...well within both the uncertainty in measurements and the natural variation. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: (S)triangulated (Collapse, Chapter 3)
Deborah wrote: I presume you are asking rhetorically, since oil certainly springs to mind...The interwoven fate of those 3 islands isn't quite a metaphor for us, however, since we could (with some difficulty and a great deal of expense) use more coal for heating, convert more corn or biomass to ethanol or diesel equivalent (not cheaply!), etc. They, OTOH, had no resources to cross the ocean once cut off from Mangarea (!sp!), which supplied the big canoes IIRC. No, there are very few perfect analogies and this one isn't even close to being perfect, but the point is, as you acknowledge below, drastic changes and perhaps even violent reactions would occur if our oil supply was cut back drastically. Still, disruption in our oil supply does create anxiety, expense and distrust in the government; if all oil imports were just cut abruptly, it would seriously discommode our economy, and there might be severe food shortages - riots. But I think that we'd manage to get some oil from somebody else, albeit less and for a huge price. Debbi who finally got a copy of Collapse from the library, but having to return it soon, has sped through the whole thing whoosh! Heh, I'm barely keeping ahead of the discussion and as I'm working the WE I'm unlikely to get any farther ahead. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: To the Back of the Bus!
On Aug 26, 2006, at 11:54 PM, Dave Land wrote: Apparently, after screening and re-screening that couple of milliseconds of Janet Jackson's nipple at the 2004 Superbowl for hours on end, the geeks at the FCC have lost all sense of proportion. I know the feeling. -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pope prepares to embrace theory of intelligent design
On Aug 27, 2006, at 7:41 PM, William T Goodall wrote: There have been growing signs the Pope is considering aligning his church more closely with the theory of intelligent design taught in some US states. So … JPII wasn't infallible after all? What does that actually mean for the Papacy? Imagine the chaos that will ensue when millions of Catholics realize that the Pope isn't actually the living representative of Jesus Christ after all. Millions of crushed believers weeping and wailing in the streets … worldwide rioting … icons clasted … how dreadful. -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
