Re: malaria in Africa
Doug Pensinger wrote: But McCain has been quoted as saying he wouldn't mind if we stayed there for another hundred years and talks about surrender as if there was someone to surrender to. We keep hearing Viet Nam analogies about what might happen if we leave precipitously (though other Viet Nam analogies that are more accurate are dismissed), but there's no NVA in Iraq. Iran? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: (Possibly) Living in Amsterdam..
At 09:29 AM Tuesday 2/19/2008, Andrew Crystall wrote: Hi everyone; I'm currently looking at possibly moving to Amsterdam for a game design job, and I believe there are a few people who might be able to help - I am looking for some advice on areas and rents in Amsterdam and general cost of living issues, off-list if you prefer.. AndrewC Who quit a stable low-paid job for a 40% payrise to find his new employers were bad about actually paying people Well, that sucks. Not that (from what I hear: so far that exact thing has never happened to me) it's all that unusual, but it still sucks . . . and is now grumpily unemployed. I've been happily unemployed on occasion. (Like when I had a movie to make or a con to put together, or later when I got so sick that not having to go out every day was a relief, even if I didn't know where the money was going to come from . . .) Trust me, it's preferable . . . Still No Help In Your Current Situation Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
At 01:23 AM Wednesday 2/20/2008, Dave Land wrote: the moderators, historian Sean Worst President In History? Wilentz Never heard of him. What was he president of, to got the title? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
On Feb 19, 2008 11:23 PM, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As much as I want to brag about the fact that I got to attend such a prestigious event, my main point is that Dan's complaint about the poor quality of discourse on this list and Doug's frustration with Dan's extraordinarily detailed posts were both handled so well in the seminar. Wow. I wouldn't have thought anybody there cared about Brin-L. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Wal-Mart and more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Land Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:23 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: Wal-Mart and more Despite the fact that there were some people in the room who could have filled an entire afternoon with fascinating speech, everybody -- including the moderators, historian Sean Worst President In History? Wilentz and former Republican Congressman Mickey Edwards -- strove to be succinct. Perhaps we can give each other the same gift? OK, Dave, let stay under 500 words. You posted to state that a significant fraction of my posts are rude because they are long. I could spend 20 hours per post cutting down my thoughts to a small tight post that would be under 400 words for any idea I had. (Which is a 2 minute speech). I recall that way back when there was a limit of about 15k in size do to the lower baud rates back then. My longest post this year was 1650 words, 1000 of mine and 650 quoted words. I quoted a good deal because I've didn't want to misrepresent the original point. Maybe this deserved an L3 length indicator, but it was borderline according to our long standing guidlines. The Etiquette Guidelines do not give a maximum length. I thought that abiding by these guidelines was fine. I could, probably, cut my post lengths down tremendouslyas I do when I submit papers to journals with strict page limitations. As Nick pointed out, that is a mark of excellent writing. But, while I research and write quickly, the process of compression is slowas it is for most I know. So, as I read your suggestion, I will be rude if I wish to include ideas that need to be well developed and documented if I simply do the work and submit, as if you were, a rough draft. So, just to be clear, if I have an idea that is more than a quite aside, you and Nick think I should find another venue or spend the hours needed to compress the post into one worthy of publication? My I ask a question of sheer ignorance? What is wrong with seeing the length of the post, glancing at it and then deciding if you want to read the whole thing later? It's not as if this list has enormous traffic any more. Nick gave me in his last posts questions and propositions that were the very ones I asked for and I looked forward to discussing them with him. (In short the communication between us finally worked and I saw his points that were worth serious consideration.) However, since I try to be polite, I will refrain from that until I can devote a day or two per post honing my responses down to strict, yet unspecified, page limitations or I am told that I am allowed to write long posts. In short, may I please please be given explicit limits to work within, since following the etiquette guidelines is no longer sufficient. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
I do love me some xkcd
http://xkcd.com/386/ --[Lance] -- Celebrate The Circle http://www.celebratethecircle.org/ Carolina Spirit Quest http://www.carolinaspiritquest.org/ My LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/labrown/ GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:47 AM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 01:23 AM Wednesday 2/20/2008, Dave Land wrote: the moderators, historian Sean Worst President In History? Wilentz Never heard of him. What was he president of, to got the title? Sorry: To the extent that he is known, Wilentz is best known for the controversial article, The Worst President In History?, in Rolling Stone. If you google his name, it's the top hit. He is not, as far as I know, the president of anything, and I hadn't heard of him before, either. I could have been clearer. I will beg indulgence due to a brain that was in a fog last night due to too much travel and too little sleep while way too ill. Dave Travel advice: Don't get an upper-respiratory illness at 8,000 feet: it's no fun at all. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
Dan, On Feb 20, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Dan M wrote: Behalf Of Dave Land Perhaps we can give each other the same gift? You posted to state that a significant fraction of my posts are rude because they are long. I don't recall having said any such thing. Someone else commented that your posts were so well-researched and extensive that most people cannot match them. I don't even recall his having said that your posts were rude. I noted that one of the benefits of the Socrates Society Seminar format was brevity. I am not sure that I can be held responsible for how you connect those facts. I could spend 20 hours per post cutting down my thoughts to a small tight post that would be under 400 words for any idea I had. (Which is a 2 minute speech). I recall that way back when there was a limit of about 15k in size do to the lower baud rates back then. I can't imagine it'd take 20 hours, but yeah, it takes longer to say more with fewer words. My longest post this year was 1650 words, 1000 of mine and 650 quoted words. I quoted a good deal because I've didn't want to misrepresent the original point. Your posts are nothing if not carefully constructed and bolstered against misinterpretation. So, just to be clear, if I have an idea that is more than a quite aside, you and Nick think I should find another venue or spend the hours needed to compress the post into one worthy of publication? I'll let Nick decide what Nick deems appropriate. The construct you and Nick seems to presume that we think with one mind, which we definitely do not. I think that Nick finds me a pompous ass from time to time, and I return the favor as often as I can. I find many of your posts overwhelming, but not rude. :-) However, since I try to be polite, I will refrain from that until I can devote a day or two per post honing my responses down to strict, yet unspecified, page limitations or I am told that I am allowed to write long posts. I don't know that there are any strict, yet unspecified page limitations, Dan. This is just a bunch of acquaintances exchanging emails about Science Fiction, politics, religion and stuff. Sometimes, long posts are valuable (this one is already probably too long). Other times, they're just too much, and the reader is free to ignore them or respond at leisure. In short, may I please please be given explicit limits to work within, since following the etiquette guidelines is no longer sufficient. Up to 600 words, typed, double-spaced, in triplicate, by registered mail. All submissions become the property of Brin-L, Inc, and will not be returned. Dave Ask A Silly Question Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over nine years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive just wait around a while for the next person to show up! If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web interface! -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll let Nick decide what Nick deems appropriate. The construct you and Nick seems to presume that we think with one mind, which we definitely do not. I think that Nick finds me a pompous ass from time to time, and I return the favor as often as I can. That deserves a response, but I'm laughing too much to think. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: I do love me some xkcd
Lance A. Brown wrote: http://xkcd.com/386/ I got linked to that on a forum I'm active on. The number of people I am 'Net-acquainted with to whom that cartoon applies staggers the imagination, and I can include myself on that list every now and again too. :-) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Wal-Mart and more
Dan M wrote: However, since I try to be polite, I will refrain from that until I can devote a day or two per post honing my responses down to strict, yet unspecified, page limitations or I am told that I am allowed to write long posts. Passive-aggressiveness aside, I personally wouldn't want you to do that. On the occasions when I have time to read your posts and not just skim them in a short attention span theater tl;dr style, I find them rewarding. But that may simply be because you're usually better educated on whatever topic we're going on about. But that's just me. You want to talk about the subtleties of American foreign policy, I'm happy to be a listener. You want to discuss the subtle nuances of the current mortality tables, or preferably - since I'd rather leave work at the office - the crit rocket, I'm your man. :-) Jim Deadly actuary with deadly accuracy Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Malaria in the world
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jon louis mann wrote: debbie, sorry for the top post; for some reason this showed up in my bulk folder... Well, it WAS a bulky message. sigh Just because it's winter and I've put on a couple of pounds is no reason to insult me, Nickelodean... ;) Debbi who had a delightful ride yesterday, Cezanne's first since before Christmas (it's been too icy to risk my neck on a spooky horse) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I could have been clearer. I will beg indulgence due to a brain that was in a fog last night due to too much travel and too little sleep while way too ill. Dave Travel advice: Don't get an upper-respiratory illness at 8,000 feet: it's no fun at all. Especially if you add alcohol to the mix! It's also pretty arid despite the snow, given indoor heating; I use a lot of hot tea with steam therapy when I start to get sick. (Little kids just don't remember not to cough in your face, which, being seated on a pony, they are at a perfect height to do.) Debbi Rooibus, Ginger And Mint Maru :) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
At 12:14 PM Wednesday 2/20/2008, Dave Land wrote: On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:47 AM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 01:23 AM Wednesday 2/20/2008, Dave Land wrote: the moderators, historian Sean Worst President In History? Wilentz Never heard of him. What was he president of, to got the title? Sorry: To the extent that he is known, Wilentz is best known for the controversial article, The Worst President In History?, in Rolling Stone. If you google his name, it's the top hit. He is not, as far as I know, the president of anything, and I hadn't heard of him before, either. I could have been clearer. I will beg indulgence due to a brain that was in a fog last night due to too much travel and too little sleep while way too ill. Dave Travel advice: Don't get an upper-respiratory illness at 8,000 feet: it's no fun at all. As upper-respiratory goes, 8,000 feet is indeed rather well up there . . . -- Ronn! :P If it ain't obvious wrt both of these posts: Professional Smart-Aleck. Do Not Attempt. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Curtis Burisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...But tonight I was reading a very interesting article on the use of lead additives to petrol in the USA, and I thought there were some very interesting parallels with the whole DDT issue. Damn interesting site, too, with great articles. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=932 Even worse than the tobacco industry, no? ...Following the death of one worker and irreversible derangement among others at an Ethyl factory in October 1924, the chief chemist there told reporters, These men probably went insane because they worked too hard. Within days, four additional workers from the plant died, and thirty-six others were crippled with incurable neurological damage. The plant, it seemed, had employed many hard workers... ...As demand for Ethyl additive increased across the country, the US Surgeon General launched a series of public inquiries regarding the health risks of leaded fuel. In response, Ethyl voluntarily withdrew its product from the market for the duration of the investigations. The details of over a dozen Ethyl-related deaths and hundreds of manufacturing injuries were revealed, but per usual these events were blamed on worker's carelessness and horseplay... ...Upon learning that automotive fuel was the source of the contamination, Dr. Patterson began to publish materials discussing the toxic metal's ubiquity and its probable ill effects. In order to demonstrate the increase of lead in the environment, Patterson proposed taking core samples from pack ice in Greenland, and testing the lead content of each layer a novel concept which had not been previously attempted. The experiment worked, and the results showed that airborne lead had been negligible before 1923, and that it had climbed precipitously ever since. In 1965, when the tests were conducted, lead levels were roughly 1,000 times higher than they had been in the pre-Ethyl era. He also compared modern bone samples to that of older human remains, and found that modern humans' lead levels were hundreds of times higher... ...The Ethyl corporation allegedly offered him lucrative employment in exchange for more favorable research results, but Dr. Patterson declined. For a time thereafter, Patterson found himself ostracized from government and corporate sponsored research projects, including the a National Research Council panel on atmospheric lead contamination. The Ethyl corporation had powerful friends, including a Supreme Court justice, members of the US Public Health Service, and the mighty American Petroleum Institute... Hmm, no parallels to global warming and certain researchers either... The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously, so I won't add any. O quit cheering! Debbi TEL *And* CFCs -- Quite The Resume Maru! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Ape Genius on NOVA last night
This was way cool -- and a bit scary, especially watching a chimp make a primitive spear with which to hunt bush babies. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/apegenius/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_3_novabrapegenius_2008-02-20 One bonobo, Kanzi, understands *3000* English words according to his researchers. The lack of ability to understand attention-pointing was intriguing, as dogs _do_ get this concept (even my cats have learned this, although it took a very long time (months) for Bashir to comprehend). And the related 'triangulation teaching mode' seems to be unique to us humans, at least for now. Inability to delay gratification using actual desired objects (candy) contrasted with ability to use symbols representing those objects (numbers on cards) to successfully wait for the treats. More on those spear-makers: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2008-04/chimps-with-spears/roach-text.html The Fongoli chimps of Senegal will break off a branch, sharpen it with their teeth, and use it to hunt bush babies. That's just one of the recent discoveries that underscore the ape-human connection. ...Unlike their better-known rain forest kin, savanna-woodland chimps spend most of their day on the ground. There is no canopy here. The trees are low and grow sparsely. It's an environment very much like the open, scratchy terrain where early humans evolved... Debbi who expects Ronn or Vill to make cream pie with my first statement ;) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ape Genius on NOVA last night
I wrote: snip More on those spear-makers: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2008-04/chimps-with-spears/roach-text.html [from a reporter's visit with researcher Jill Pruetz] Shades of a short story, title and author not recalled, of granting legal status to a cigarette-smoking chimp (who had learned to delay gratification, IIRC): ...New Zealand, the Netherlands, Sweden, and the United Kingdom have all passed legislation limiting experimentation on great apes, and the Balearic Islands in Spain passed a resolution in 2007 granting them basic legal rights. In 2006 an Austrian animal rights organization submitted an application to a district court in Mödling to appoint a legal guardian for a chimp named Hiasl. The strategy was to establish legal person status for the hairy defendant... Chimp behavior snippets: ...I had not known that chimpanzee yawns are contagiousboth among each other and to humans. I had known that chimps laugh, but I did not know that they get upset if someone laughs at them.* I knew that captive chimps spit, but I hadn't known that they, like us, seem to consider spitting the most extreme expression of disgustone reserved, interestingly, for humans. I knew that a captive ape might care for a kitten if you gave one to it, but had not heard of a wild chimpanzee taking one in, as Tia did with a genet kitten. The list goes on. Chimps get up to get snacks in the middle of the night. They lie on their backs and do the airplane with their children. They kiss. Shake hands. Pick their scabs before they're ready...As a colleague of Pruetz's once said to her, A chimp takes a crap in the forest, and someone publishes a paper about it. (No exaggeration. One paper has a section on chimpanzees' use of leaf napkins: This hygienic technology is directed to their bodily fluids (blood, semen, feces, urine, snot). ... Their use ranges from delicate dabbing to vigorous wiping... *Cats also recognize the difference between laughing with (as when they're playing with you and being silly) and being made fun of (as when they completely muff a usually-gracefully-executed move), and when your laughter has nothing whatsoever to do with them (as at the TV or a book). Debbi More Fodder For The Humorists Maru ;) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ape Genius on NOVA last night
The story you're loking for is Robert Heinlein's Jerry Was a Man Never judge a book by its movie. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:26:35 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ape Genius on NOVA last night To: brin-l@mccmedia.com I wrote: snip More on those spear-makers: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2008-04/chimps-with-spears/roach-text.html [from a reporter's visit with researcher Jill Pruetz] Shades of a short story, title and author not recalled, of granting legal status to a cigarette-smoking chimp (who had learned to delay gratification, IIRC): ...New Zealand, the Netherlands, Sweden, and the United Kingdom have all passed legislation limiting experimentation on great apes, and the Balearic Islands in Spain passed a resolution in 2007 granting them basic legal rights. In 2006 an Austrian animal rights organization submitted an application to a district court in Mödling to appoint a legal guardian for a chimp named Hiasl. The strategy was to establish legal person status for the hairy defendant... Chimp behavior snippets: ...I had not known that chimpanzee yawns are contagious—both among each other and to humans. I had known that chimps laugh, but I did not know that they get upset if someone laughs at them.* I knew that captive chimps spit, but I hadn't known that they, like us, seem to consider spitting the most extreme expression of disgust—one reserved, interestingly, for humans. I knew that a captive ape might care for a kitten if you gave one to it, but had not heard of a wild chimpanzee taking one in, as Tia did with a genet kitten. The list goes on. Chimps get up to get snacks in the middle of the night. They lie on their backs and do the airplane with their children. They kiss. Shake hands. Pick their scabs before they're ready...As a colleague of Pruetz's once said to her, A chimp takes a crap in the forest, and someone publishes a paper about it. (No exaggeration. One paper has a section on chimpanzees' use of leaf napkins: This hygienic technology is directed to their bodily fluids (blood, semen, feces, urine, snot). ... Their use ranges from delicate dabbing to vigorous wiping... *Cats also recognize the difference between laughing with (as when they're playing with you and being silly) and being made fun of (as when they completely muff a usually-gracefully-executed move), and when your laughter has nothing whatsoever to do with them (as at the TV or a book). Debbi More Fodder For The Humorists Maru ;) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
There's an email circulating on the net regarding $250 billion to rebuild New Orleans, which one of Louisiana's senators apparently is asking for (I didn't check that fact). The email suggests that this is an obvious waste of taxpayer money, since it comes to about a half million dollar per resident. Aside from questions about this particular number (was that for the current or pre-Katrina population, for example)... I haven't been able to find any particularly good figures on the actual per capita value of public infrastructure or the cost of replacing it. Anybody have any idea where such figures might be found? Of course, one could argue that if the market sees efficiency in rebuilding New Orleans, government can just get out of the way and it'll happen. ;-) Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ape Genius on NOVA last night
Pat Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The story you're loking for is Robert Heinlein's Jerry Was a Man Never judge a book by its movie. Ah, thanks - I read it so long ago that I'd forgotten just about all but the premise. Debbi Breed To Come Maru =^.^= Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart and more
On Feb 20, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Dan M wrote: You posted to state that a significant fraction of my posts are rude because they are long. And you wonder why few people seem to want to engage you in intelligent, polite discourse? Seriously, Dan -- arguing in good faith, avoiding strawmanning and ad hominem, and staying clear of pedantic browbeating are going to get you considerably more favorable replies than the tone I've seen from you in this most recent set of threads. The sense I get (since you did originally ask) is that you *must* be right at all costs, damn the opposition -- and, since they're wrong anyway, they can be ignored. This might not be how you intend to come off onscreen, but that's how it reads to me at least. If it's so bloody important that it's worth discussing, you could at least concede you might not be entirely correct -- and whether you are or not, why is it so all-fired important to be right 100 percent of the time on *an internet discussion maillist*? -- \/\/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Deborah Harrell wrote: Hmm, no parallels to global warming and certain researchers either... The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously, so I won't add any. O quit cheering! I am curious about this (lead tetraethyl) - crime link. Brazil was one of the first countries to ban lead (because of ethanol, whose octane rating is high), and we don't have nice numbers on crime. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 20 Feb 2008, at 23:07, Nick Arnett wrote: There's an email circulating on the net regarding $250 billion to rebuild New Orleans, which one of Louisiana's senators apparently is asking for (I didn't check that fact). The email suggests that this is an obvious waste of taxpayer money, since it comes to about a half million dollar per resident. Aside from questions about this particular number (was that for the current or pre-Katrina population, for example)... I haven't been able to find any particularly good figures on the actual per capita value of public infrastructure or the cost of replacing it. Anybody have any idea where such figures might be found? Of course, one could argue that if the market sees efficiency in rebuilding New Orleans, government can just get out of the way and it'll happen. ;-) It raises questions about the pragmatism of the argument that the cheapest way of dealing with global warming is to fix things as they happen rather than try and prevent them. The arguments of the global warming deniers has so far run like this: 1) There's no such thing. 2) There is but humans have nothing to do with causing it. 3) We do cause it but getting a bit warmer is a good thing. 4) We do cause it and it's a bad thing but it's better to do nothing now. All of which are ways of saying do nothing. And are equivalent to believing (1) and lying to persuade others to go along. Religion = Lies Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their zombie master. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On Feb 20, 2008, at 4:07 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: There's an email circulating on the net regarding $250 billion to rebuild New Orleans, which one of Louisiana's senators apparently is asking for (I didn't check that fact). Cites might be helpful to see if (1) there is in fact such a senator; and (2) s/he is in fact asking for this money now (as opposed to having done so in, say, 2006). The email suggests that this is an obvious waste of taxpayer money, since it comes to about a half million dollar per resident. Aside from questions about this particular number (was that for the current or pre-Katrina population, for example)... Half a million dollars per resident would assume 50,000 residents, for what that's worth. As for wastes of taxpayer money, one wonders what the response is to Iraq. I haven't been able to find any particularly good figures on the actual per capita value of public infrastructure or the cost of replacing it. Well, some of that would depend on the level of infrastructure -- that is, interstates would involve a different tax base and quantity than, say, a local hospital or shelter; or a county facility or state highway system that happens to pass through the city. Of course, one could argue that if the market sees efficiency in rebuilding New Orleans, government can just get out of the way and it'll happen. ;-) It hasn't so far. My personal objection to rebuilding New Orleans is that it's going to get hit again. It's below sea level. Eventually it will be inundated, and no amount of money poured into it today -- or next year, or in 2015 -- will change that fact. It might make more sense to simply decide which buildings we absolutely must keep due to their historical importance, move them to high solid ground, help the remaining citizens relocate and get established in new locations, and let the sea in. -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
A little too close to home...
Folks, Two videos, definitely NSFW (and maybe NSFH, if you have kiddies in the room or a partner with extremely delicate sensibilities) showing what happens when online community behaviors find their way into the corporate boardroom... http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556 http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1776175 Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Wal-Mart and more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Warren Ockrassa Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:23 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: Wal-Mart and more On Feb 18, 2008, at 6:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, historically, the extra money the first half has is spent on things that employ the second half. That is _the_ process that created an American middle class out of dirt poor farmers who could barely feed their families. Okay ... so where's the middle class gone to, then? It's still there, but whether the middle class has noticeably improved its standing over the last 30 years is a argument based on subtle interpretations of the inflation index. The subtle nature of the argument is based on a number of things: One discussion is at: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3765/is_n3_v18/ai_18824582/pg_2 But, even taking that index at face value, every income group, from the bottom quintile to the top quintile has improved. The top has improved a whole lot more, but the middle class has not gone away. The distance between the top and the middle has increased, but that's separate issue. I remember the story of the Great Depression from my parents, and have seen statistical information on the effective income of the median American (the guy/gal in the middle since then). It was far below the present poverty line. Things have changed tremendously since the US was the only effective manufacturing power, back in the '60s. The rest of the world is catching up, many times by us buying cheaper things from China and India, for example, than far more expensive things from the US. But, given that, and even though there is increased skewing in the income distribution curve, the folks with family incomes in the 30%-70% of median income range still form a local maximum...which can rightfully be called the middle class. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A little too close to home...
Dave Land said the following on 2/20/2008 9:36 PM: Folks, Two videos, definitely NSFW (and maybe NSFH, if you have kiddies in the room or a partner with extremely delicate sensibilities) showing what happens when online community behaviors find their way into the corporate boardroom... http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556 http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1776175 That was strangely uncomfortable. Weirded Out Maru, --[Lance] -- Celebrate The Circle http://www.celebratethecircle.org/ Carolina Spirit Quest http://www.carolinaspiritquest.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: CNN Breaking News
X-Originating-IP: [64.236.25.98] Approved-By: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Authentication-Warning: ema3adm1.turner.com: listapprover set sender to CNN Breaking News [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f X-job: 20080220232603.textbreakingnews.2765 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:26:03 -0500 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: CNN Breaking News [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CNN Breaking News To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- The U.S. Navy successfully shot down an inoperable spy satellite before it crashed to Earth, the Pentagon confirms. So . . . if they shot it /down/ before it crashed to Earth, where is it going to fall now? (Yes, I know . . . just seems they could have phrased that better . . . ) +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Military OneSource offers free military tax preparation and filing. Visit www.militaryonesource.com today! +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= You have opted-in in to receive this e-mail from CNN.com. To unsubscribe from Breaking News e-mail alerts, go to: http://cgi.cnn.com/m/clik?l=textbreakingnews. One CNN Center Atlanta, GA 30303 (c) (r) 2008 Cable News Network -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Wal-Mart and more L4
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Arnett Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:30 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: Wal-Mart and more On Feb 17, 2008 8:50 PM, Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3) Are you interested in discussing what I just quoted and will requote: The third is a discussion of the case at hand: if we (as I think we do) agree that improving the lives of the poorer among us at least _a_ worthwhile goal, has Wal-Mart done more to aid or more to harm those lives. Reading down through the thread, I realized that no, I am not interested in discussing that question because it is free of any ethical considerations. It is a modest proposal sort of argument. Ethics is not simply a matter of calculating whether the good outweighs the bad. There are some things that we simply don't do because they are wrong, even though logic might strongly suggest that their benefit outweighs the cost. We don't eat our children to survive (an allusion to modest propsals, in case that wasn't clear). (As an aside, it was English Gentlemen who ate the Irish Children...a bit pedeanticbut rather important to the author's point.) Among many schools of ethics over the years there are two that are being intertwined here: One is the categorical imperative: there are things we must always do and there are things we must never do, simply because they are right/wrong. The second is the consequentialist: the ethics of actions are determined by the outcome of acting/not acting. Even if the action or lack thereof is not inherently immoral or moral, one can consider the morality by the consequences. There is nothing immoral about standing on a street corner thinking about last night's ball game. But, if a woman was being raped, it would be immoral to do nothing, if it was possible to stop the action with modest risk to oneself (at least call 911, right?) I tend to be a consequentialist. I look at love thy neighbor as theyself (which I think we agree as fundamental, and look at the results for my neighbors of certain actions. But, I recognize that one can push consequentialism into immorality. Consequentialism was, after all, the excuse for the excesses of Communism. The classic anti-consequentalism argument is the question of handing an innocent man to be killed in order to keep a city safe. So there are problems with this argumentand it has to be balanced with the moral imperative understanding of ethics, IMHO. But, there are real life examples of problems with limited and selected implementations of moral imperatives. For one, if one defines too many or too broad moral imperatives: one finds oneself with no choice but to violate one or the other. For example, protect the innocent and never do any harm cannot both be followed all the time. Take a real life example of a crazed shooter being hit with rifle fire by a police officer. This doesn't mean that I think pacifism is wrong, a priori. Rather, I'd argue that a pacifist must admit that the cost of their inaction is that innocence will suffer and die. The categorical imperative can be so strong as to require to pacifist to stand back in horror and watch an innocent die, when they were in a position to let the innocent live. I think the proper thing to do in that case, is use violence: I think a police force (uncorrupt, unbiased, etc.) is valid...and I am acting morally when I vote to help establish the existence of such a force. As far as I can see, a pacifist would differ, but that's a point where ethical people can have honest differences. I'd only get upset if they denied that there some of the consequences of their inaction were horrid. I've met honest pacifists and I respected their views because they agreed that innocence can die when a pacifistic stand is takenbut that they still had to take that stance. Now, back to Wal-Mart. Looking at the last 20 years of Wal-Mart.the company philosophy seems evident to me. I've read a wide range of analysis of their techniques and the corporate culture of Wal-Mart was consistently named as cutting prices by cutting costs. Corporations are all there to make money, certainly. But, they have different ways of doing it. Some are the tech leaders: high prices for the latest and the best. Wal-Mart chose the low price route to profit. It's a low margin means, but can be very successful. Nationwide, Wal-Mart pays just under average for retail workers. Here near Houston, it pays a bit better than average. So, exploiting the worker by paying far less than the next guy for a worker does not seem to be the MO. Indeed, as the reference I gave shows, Wal-Mart pays way under scale only in those areas where scale is set by union to be far higher than it is in the rest of the nation. Wal-Mart also pushes its suppliers to lower prices. That doesn't strike me as unusual.its
RE: Wal-Mart and more L4
Oh. For a second I thought I was going to read about the first Supercenter on a space colony . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Wal-Mart and more L4
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ronn! Blankenship Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:48 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: RE: Wal-Mart and more L4 Oh. For a second I thought I was going to read about the first Supercenter on a space colony . . . No, the robotic union has successfully blocked it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
