RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
J. van Baardwijk wrote: Islam itself is a religion of peace and tolerance; it is the words and actions of a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. Look beyond that. One of the key differences is that among most other religions, the good guys actually appear to have the capacity and the desire to stop the bad guys. Islam may be a religion of peace and tolerance, but it sure doesn't look like those that promote peace and tolerance are the ones running the show. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
From: Joe Hale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:48:44 -0400 I would like to believe it's just a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. However the roaring silence of the so called majority speaks volumes about where their sympathy lies. Also the Moslem Fundamentalists are not misinterpreting the Koran. They are not stupid. They know how to read. Their interpretation is just as valid as the moderate's interpretation. (There is no Pope in Islam to settle these issues.) Read the Koran. Read about Islam in depth. Then make judgements. Fanatics are twisting a religion with many positive points and admirable qualities to suit their purposes. This much is clear. Unfortunately, the issue is not as black and white as one might believe. As with Hebrew and the Torah, the Koran is written in an ancient language whose words often have several meanings and translations. Many translations of the Koran will give you exactly that: many translations. It is therefore possible to manipulate the translation of passages to fit desired meanings I'm not 100% sure of my knowledge in the following example. Perhaps Ilana or Tom could back me up?? (I'm way too busy to research it.) :) An example of this in Hebrew and the Torah: As I understand it, certain teachings of the Baal Shem Tov translate the bible in such a way that interprets the word angry as it used in the Torah as passionate, loving or emotional. Therefore, the phrase: I am an angry God can be translated as I am a passionate (or loving) God. As you might expect, this completely changes the nature of the translation and the feeling of the religion. Similar translations and possibly mistranslations are possible when language can be vague. I believe this is what is being done, deliberately, with the Koran. And I never claimed that other religions don't have their militant streaks. I merely said that in today's world it is the Moslems who seem to be fighting everyone else. What you said was: If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. But the Muslims didn't start it recently in Bosnia or Sarajevo, did they? The Battle of Tours was a single incident in history. I think, as Jean-Louis pointed out, the eight Crusades from 1097 1270 and the Inquisition in the 15th 16th centuries are probably a better example of how Christian / Muslim confrontations have gone historically. Im not saying that Muslim hands are clean, mind you, its just that Christians have, generally, spilled more blood in the name of Christ than Muslims have in the name of Allah if youre going by their track record over the last 1000 years. Unfortunately, American Islamic organizations like CAIR haven't been particularly vocal or outspoken on these topics. They certainly took their sweet time in offering reluctant condemnation about the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Witness the opposite reaction from their Australian counterpart this week: the Islamic/Muslim organization there condemned the recent terrorist bombing immediately and demanded justice for the victims. Are the Australians an exception to the rule or the global norm? Jon GSV IAAMOAC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l-bounces;mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West At 21:30 23-10-2002 -0400, Joe Hale wrote: This author makes a good point. People who claim Islam is a religion of peace are turning a blind eye to history. If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. Are you really that intolerant, or just extremely ignorant? Islam's history is not one of peace and only peace, but the same can be said about that other major religion: Christianity. The aggressive actions of Muslems in current times are not typical for Islam; they are the actions of a relatively small number of Muslim-fundamentalists who misinterpret the Koran -- in pretty much the same way the Christian fundamentalists misinterpret the Bible. Islam itself is a religion of peace and tolerance; it is the words and actions of a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. Look beyond that. Jeroen Intolerance towards intolerance van Baardwijk _ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http
Re: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
- Original Message - From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:10 AM Subject: RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West Are you really that intolerant, or just extremely ignorant? Your problem with John was exactly what? xponent Intolerance Towards Dishonesty Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
Jon Gabriel wrote: But the Muslims didn't start it recently in Bosnia or Sarajevo, did they? Ask any serbian, and he will answer with an emphatic _Yes_. Alberto Monteiro The Contrarian ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
At 18:48 25-10-2002 -0400, Joe Hale wrote: I would like to believe it's just a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. However the roaring silence of the so called majority speaks volumes about where their sympathy lies. Bullshit. In the US, fanatical pro-life Christians have been murdering doctors and blowing up abortion clinics to make their point; following your reasoning, we would also have to condemn all Christians because the silence of the majority speaks volumes about where their sympathies lies. Do you believe that modern-day Christianity as a whole is a religion of hatred and war? Jeroen Intolerance towards intolerance van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
J. van Baardwijk wrote: At 18:48 25-10-2002 -0400, Joe Hale wrote: I would like to believe it's just a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. However the roaring silence of the so called majority speaks volumes about where their sympathy lies. Bullshit. In the US, fanatical pro-life Christians have been murdering doctors and blowing up abortion clinics to make their point; following your reasoning, we would also have to condemn all Christians because the silence of the majority speaks volumes about where their sympathies lies. The difference is that the murderers and bombers are arrested, tried, and put in jail if found guilty by their fellow citizens, without pressure from the international community. Has a member of Hamas, for example, ever been arrested by fellow Muslims for assisting in blowing up a busload of children, for example? And if so, how often has it happened? Do you believe that the Taliban would have been deposed for its complicity in the 9/11 attacks without the intense pressure from the US and its allies? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
At 21:30 23-10-2002 -0400, Joe Hale wrote: This author makes a good point. People who claim Islam is a religion of peace are turning a blind eye to history. If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. Are you really that intolerant, or just extremely ignorant? Islam's history is not one of peace and only peace, but the same can be said about that other major religion: Christianity. The aggressive actions of Muslems in current times are not typical for Islam; they are the actions of a relatively small number of Muslim-fundamentalists who misinterpret the Koran -- in pretty much the same way the Christian fundamentalists misinterpret the Bible. Islam itself is a religion of peace and tolerance; it is the words and actions of a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. Look beyond that. Jeroen Intolerance towards intolerance van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
I would like to believe it's just a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. However the roaring silence of the so called majority speaks volumes about where their sympathy lies. Also the Moslem Fundamentalists are not misinterpreting the Koran. They are not stupid. They know how to read. Their interpretation is just as valid as the moderate's interpretation. (There is no Pope in Islam to settle these issues.) And I never claimed that other religions don't have their militant streaks. I merely said that in today's world it is the Moslems who seem to be fighting everyone else. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l-bounces;mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West At 21:30 23-10-2002 -0400, Joe Hale wrote: This author makes a good point. People who claim Islam is a religion of peace are turning a blind eye to history. If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. Are you really that intolerant, or just extremely ignorant? Islam's history is not one of peace and only peace, but the same can be said about that other major religion: Christianity. The aggressive actions of Muslems in current times are not typical for Islam; they are the actions of a relatively small number of Muslim-fundamentalists who misinterpret the Koran -- in pretty much the same way the Christian fundamentalists misinterpret the Bible. Islam itself is a religion of peace and tolerance; it is the words and actions of a few fanatics who give Islam a bad reputation. Look beyond that. Jeroen Intolerance towards intolerance van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
De : Joe Hale [mailto:halejr;bellsouth.net] This author makes a good point. People who claim Islam is a religion of peace are turning a blind eye to history. If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. Sounds like Christianity at the same age... The Crusades and the Inquisition are part of Christian history. A part of every christian's history except for Copts and Orthodox. Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
This author makes a good point. People who claim Islam is a religion of peace are turning a blind eye to history. If Islam was a religion of peace there would never have been a Battle of Tours. The Moslems are currently fighting the Christians, Jews, and Hindus, and they are responsible for blowing up the Buddhist statutes in Afghanistan. They can't get along with anybody. This is not a religion of peace. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l-bounces;mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:56 AM To: Brin-L Subject: Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021023-18874592.htm Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West By Tom Carter THE WASHINGTON TIMES The Islamic world is engaged in a cultural war with the West and the worst is still to come, Italian author Oriana Fallaci told a receptive Washington audience last night. Spinning off a long list of Islamic countries, she told a group of about 80 people: The hate for the West swells like a fire fed by the wind. The clash between us and them is not a military one. It is a cultural one, a religious one, and the worst is still to come, she continued in what she said was her first public address in more than a decade. Tight security was in place for the speech at the American Enterprise Institute after death threats were issued against her and her attorney as a result of her latest book, The Rage and the Pride, which contains harsh criticism of Muslims. The book, which she called a sermon to Europe, was written in New York in the two weeks after September 11 as the smoke and dust from the destruction of the World Trade Center blanketed the city. Miss Fallaci contends in the angry polemic that the only difference between moderate Islam and radical Islam is the length of their beards. She said last night that critics have attempted to ban the book or have her arrested in France, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy. The 72-year-old author described these efforts as intellectual terrorism. Miss Fallaci, who lives in New York and is afflicted with cancer, also criticizes Western culture for its loose morals and licentiousness. Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights, she said. In her prime, Miss Fallaci was famed as a belligerent journalist and argumentative interviewer, who had unprecedented access to the world's most reclusive and wary leaders. A partisan in the Italian resistance in World War II and a lifelong leftist, she once became so disgusted while interviewing Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini that she ripped off her head scarf and threw it in his face. The act of defiance was considered an unpardonable sin in the ayatollah's Iran. The Rage and the Pride, originally published in an Italian newspaper and then as a book, has sold more than 1 million copies in Italy and has been popular in Germany and France as well. All three nations have large Muslim immigrant populations. Variously praised as the painful truth or decried as a bigoted, anti-Muslim screed, Miss Fallaci's book is under threat of judicial action in France for inciting racial hatred. A lawsuit brought by the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between People, a Muslim human rights group, is demanding that the book be banned in France. In a ruling yesterday that may affect her case, a French court acquitted best-selling French author Michel Houellebecq of charges of racial insult and inciting racial hatred for calling Islam the dumbest religion. The Paris court threw out the case brought by officials from the main mosques in Paris and the central-eastern city of Lyon and other Muslim groups after an interview Mr. Houellebecq gave to the French literary magazine Lire. The dumbest religion, after all, is Islam, he told the magazine. When you read the Koran, you're shattered. The Bible at least is beautifully written because the Jews have a heck of a literary talent. While the court ruled that the 44-year-old author's comments were without a doubt characterized by neither a particularly noble outlook nor by the subtlety of their phrasing, they did not constitute a punishable offense. While Mr. Houellebecq indeed had expressed hatred for Islam as a religion, the court said, he had not expressed hatred for Muslims, nor did he encourage others to share his views or discriminate against Muslims. Miss Fallaci, in her first book in more than 10 years, said she was prompted to write by demonstrations throughout the Muslim world and in pockets of Europe celebrating the September 11 attacks on the United States. Her anger, based on years of reporting in Muslim countries, is evident. Her detractors call the work an incitement to kill Muslims. Unrepentant, Miss Fallaci calls the downing of the Twin Towers an act of cultural war and says the superior Western civilization
Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021023-18874592.htm Italian author slams Islam's 'hate' for West By Tom Carter THE WASHINGTON TIMES The Islamic world is engaged in a cultural war with the West and the worst is still to come, Italian author Oriana Fallaci told a receptive Washington audience last night. Spinning off a long list of Islamic countries, she told a group of about 80 people: The hate for the West swells like a fire fed by the wind. The clash between us and them is not a military one. It is a cultural one, a religious one, and the worst is still to come, she continued in what she said was her first public address in more than a decade. Tight security was in place for the speech at the American Enterprise Institute after death threats were issued against her and her attorney as a result of her latest book, The Rage and the Pride, which contains harsh criticism of Muslims. The book, which she called a sermon to Europe, was written in New York in the two weeks after September 11 as the smoke and dust from the destruction of the World Trade Center blanketed the city. Miss Fallaci contends in the angry polemic that the only difference between moderate Islam and radical Islam is the length of their beards. She said last night that critics have attempted to ban the book or have her arrested in France, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy. The 72-year-old author described these efforts as intellectual terrorism. Miss Fallaci, who lives in New York and is afflicted with cancer, also criticizes Western culture for its loose morals and licentiousness. Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights, she said. In her prime, Miss Fallaci was famed as a belligerent journalist and argumentative interviewer, who had unprecedented access to the world's most reclusive and wary leaders. A partisan in the Italian resistance in World War II and a lifelong leftist, she once became so disgusted while interviewing Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini that she ripped off her head scarf and threw it in his face. The act of defiance was considered an unpardonable sin in the ayatollah's Iran. The Rage and the Pride, originally published in an Italian newspaper and then as a book, has sold more than 1 million copies in Italy and has been popular in Germany and France as well. All three nations have large Muslim immigrant populations. Variously praised as the painful truth or decried as a bigoted, anti-Muslim screed, Miss Fallaci's book is under threat of judicial action in France for inciting racial hatred. A lawsuit brought by the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between People, a Muslim human rights group, is demanding that the book be banned in France. In a ruling yesterday that may affect her case, a French court acquitted best-selling French author Michel Houellebecq of charges of racial insult and inciting racial hatred for calling Islam the dumbest religion. The Paris court threw out the case brought by officials from the main mosques in Paris and the central-eastern city of Lyon and other Muslim groups after an interview Mr. Houellebecq gave to the French literary magazine Lire. The dumbest religion, after all, is Islam, he told the magazine. When you read the Koran, you're shattered. The Bible at least is beautifully written because the Jews have a heck of a literary talent. While the court ruled that the 44-year-old author's comments were without a doubt characterized by neither a particularly noble outlook nor by the subtlety of their phrasing, they did not constitute a punishable offense. While Mr. Houellebecq indeed had expressed hatred for Islam as a religion, the court said, he had not expressed hatred for Muslims, nor did he encourage others to share his views or discriminate against Muslims. Miss Fallaci, in her first book in more than 10 years, said she was prompted to write by demonstrations throughout the Muslim world and in pockets of Europe celebrating the September 11 attacks on the United States. Her anger, based on years of reporting in Muslim countries, is evident. Her detractors call the work an incitement to kill Muslims. Unrepentant, Miss Fallaci calls the downing of the Twin Towers an act of cultural war and says the superior Western civilization must stand up and defeat Islam. War you wanted, war you want? Good. As far as I am concerned, war it is and war it will be. Until the last breath, she writes. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
