Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 31 Jul 2007 at 20:17, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Just a couple quibbles. There are in fact stacks of religions which claim literalism. *All* fundamentalist interpretations of *all* sects do so. ... Absolute rubbish, I'm afraid. Within Judaism the tiny Kairite movement is literalist, and the only one of any size (15,000) whatsoever*. The ultra-religious Jewish movements like the Haredi or Chabad-Lubavitch are most certainly not litteralists. (Indeed, the Haredi stress on Panenthistic principles over Torah study caused some bitter divisions within the Jewish community when it was founded) (*Jews for Jesus are literalists. However, all the Jewish authorities consider them a Christian rather than Jewish sect.) The Koran, Tripitaka, Bhagavad Gita, Bible et cetera are just texts written by people and have no more claim to divine afflatus than the Norse Eddas, the secret texts of Scientology or even my shopping list? Um, sharp differentation there. Scientology is an presently and actively dangerous *criminal organisation*. So putting it in a list with anything else is wrong. We don't tolerate the Mafia, why do we tolerate scientology again? Oh right, Tom Cruise. *thud*. That aside, the Catholic church actively engaged in hiding priest-rapists for *decades*. There are strong indications they still do so. This fits well into my definition of criminal behavior. There is no aside (and I'd have more to say otherwise). If you are willing to tolerate Scientology, then why criticise any religious ideology? If you are unwilling to condem the clear criminal actions taken by an actively and presently dangerous cult (which is NOT a religion - see for example its utter denial of being a religion in countries like Israel) which exists purely to enrich a core of non- believers... AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Aug 1, 2007, at 11:54 AM, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 31 Jul 2007 at 20:17, Warren Ockrassa wrote: Just a couple quibbles. There are in fact stacks of religions which claim literalism. *All* fundamentalist interpretations of *all* sects do so. ... Absolute rubbish, I'm afraid. Within Judaism the tiny Kairite movement is literalist, and the only one of any size (15,000) whatsoever*. The ultra-religious Jewish movements like the Haredi or Chabad-Lubavitch are most certainly not litteralists. Then I stand corrected. How about virtually all instead of all? Um, sharp differentation there. Scientology is an presently and actively dangerous *criminal organisation*. So putting it in a list with anything else is wrong. We don't tolerate the Mafia, why do we tolerate scientology again? Oh right, Tom Cruise. *thud*. That aside, the Catholic church actively engaged in hiding priest-rapists for *decades*. There are strong indications they still do so. This fits well into my definition of criminal behavior. There is no aside (and I'd have more to say otherwise). If you are willing to tolerate Scientology, then why criticise any religious ideology? When did I indicate a willingness to tolerate Scientology? I find them silly at best and, yes, criminal at worst. I was just pointing out that the problems aren't exclusive to Hubbard's silly little cult. -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Just a couple quibbles. There are in fact stacks of religions which claim literalism. *All* fundamentalist interpretations of *all* sects do so. As to the other minor asides... On Jul 31, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Andrew Crystall wrote: So, what do you think of Steven Hawkins? *grins* Hawking. Stephen Hawking. BTW, he doesn't strike me as a raving madman so much as a famous, if not entirely deservedly so, physicist. True, a lot of what he writes seems crazy, but it's backed up with a substantial body of evidence that religious authorship lacks. The Koran, Tripitaka, Bhagavad Gita, Bible et cetera are just texts written by people and have no more claim to divine afflatus than the Norse Eddas, the secret texts of Scientology or even my shopping list? Um, sharp differentation there. Scientology is an presently and actively dangerous *criminal organisation*. So putting it in a list with anything else is wrong. We don't tolerate the Mafia, why do we tolerate scientology again? Oh right, Tom Cruise. *thud*. That aside, the Catholic church actively engaged in hiding priest-rapists for *decades*. There are strong indications they still do so. This fits well into my definition of criminal behavior. And, for the record, shopping lists can indeed be divinely inspired, if you're purchasing bread and wine for a party at which you're acting as Host. -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 02:41, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 01:02 PM Wednesday 7/18/2007, Dan Minette wrote: Subject: Re: U.S. health care [...] Let me give you an example from one of the clearest numbers for which the US performs relatively poorly: infant mortality. The US's rate, about 7/5000 live births is far above the EU rate of 5.6/1000. This is a horrid statistic. We find, though, that the white, non-Hispanic rate is close to the EU: 5.8/1000. The black rate, on the other hand, is very high: 13.8. [...] Further, one sees that even black women who completed college have a significantly worse rate than white women who haven't completed grade school. 10.6/1000 vs. 6.3/1000. These data indicate that something besides income is affecting the situation. Blacks also go to different churches of course. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 30 Jul 2007, at 02:41, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 01:02 PM Wednesday 7/18/2007, Dan Minette wrote: Subject: Re: U.S. health care [...] Let me give you an example from one of the clearest numbers for which the US performs relatively poorly: infant mortality. The US's rate, about 7/5000 live births is far above the EU rate of 5.6/1000. This is a horrid statistic. We find, though, that the white, non-Hispanic rate is close to the EU: 5.8/1000. The black rate, on the other hand, is very high: 13.8. [...] Further, one sees that even black women who completed college have a significantly worse rate than white women who haven't completed grade school. 10.6/1000 vs. 6.3/1000. These data indicate that something besides income is affecting the situation. Blacks also go to different churches of course. Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others don't. I could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:21, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: Blacks also go to different churches of course. Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others don't. I could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. I'm guessing the the better educated and paid the black person is the whiter the church they attend. Trends Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time. - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:21, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: Blacks also go to different churches of course. Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others don't. I could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. I'm guessing the the better educated and paid the black person is the whiter the church they attend. Wrong! xponent Mega-Churches Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:21, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: Blacks also go to different churches of course. Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others don't. I could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. I'm guessing the the better educated and paid the black person is the whiter the church they attend. Wrong! xponent Mega-Churches Maru rob That's been some of my experience too, but for somewhat different reasons. (Our major mega-churches are all mostly-WASPs, to my knowledge.) I have several black friends and acquaintances (I don't know any better way to say that without sounding like Colbert...) that are well standing (good education, reasonable income) that go out of there way (30-minute commutes, what have you) to go to mostly-black/mostly-poor neighborhoods for church services. I have a lot of respect for that as there seems to be a genuine feeling of wanting to stay rooted/grounded in the community (and problems and hopes) of their family and further putting their money to good use in a community that they know. One of the few places where I feel that religion actually is serving some sort of good... -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
- Original Message - From: Max Battcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:21, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: Blacks also go to different churches of course. Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others don't. I could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. I'm guessing the the better educated and paid the black person is the whiter the church they attend. Wrong! xponent Mega-Churches Maru rob That's been some of my experience too, but for somewhat different reasons. (Our major mega-churches are all mostly-WASPs, to my knowledge.) I have several black friends and acquaintances (I don't know any better way to say that without sounding like Colbert...) that are well standing (good education, reasonable income) that go out of there way (30-minute commutes, what have you) to go to mostly-black/mostly-poor neighborhoods for church services. I have a lot of respect for that as there seems to be a genuine feeling of wanting to stay rooted/grounded in the community (and problems and hopes) of their family and further putting their money to good use in a community that they know. One of the few places where I feel that religion actually is serving some sort of good... That does not surprise me a bit. The idea that churches are segregated by anything more than convenience is a bit off to me. I see people going to mega-churches, mega-church wannabes, and the nearest church of convenience by denomination is normally the top attractor. In my neighborhood (within a quarter mile or so) you have several choices. There is the chapel at the hospital across the street (and I imagine they have Catholic services) There is a Lutheran Church at the end of the block. There is a Catholic Church on the block behind the Lutheran Church. Then there is an Episcopal Church a block beyond the Catholic Church. There is a Mosque in a strip center between the Lutheran Church and NASA. And a couple of those strip center fundie churches on NASA rd1. Somewhere around here is a Baptist Church, but I haven't been to that part of the hood. xponent And JWs At The Door Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 23:19, Robert Seeberger wrote: That does not surprise me a bit. The idea that churches are segregated by anything more than convenience is a bit off to me. I see people going to mega-churches, mega-church wannabes, and the nearest church of convenience by denomination is normally the top attractor. Denomination segregates by race. Hispanics for example are almost all Catholic. Many African Americans belong to such predominantly black churches as the National Baptist Convention (7,500,000 members), the AME Church (5,000,000 members) and the Church of God in Christ (6,000,000 members). The memberships of three alone amount to nearly half the African American population. Then there's the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church and the smaller Pentecostal churches. Exorcism Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft. - Jim Allchin, Windows development chief, Jan 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 02:45, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/28/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28 Jul 2007, at 20:16, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true That is patently untrue. Religions don't present their stories as being literally true? No, they don't. Some people choose to take all of them literally, but the vast majority do not take every religious story literally. Surely you knew that. Perhaps you are confusing the stereotypes of fundamentalism with reality? The vast majority take many of them literally. A minority take all of them literally (including the ones that are obviously intended as parables and not to be taken literally) and a minority take none of them literally (including the ones that need to be taken literally for the religion to have any point.) Many religions have creeds -- short statements of faith that one chooses to accept as true if one is to profess that faith. Creeds exists specifically to identify the key truths in one's faith. There would be no need for them if everybody believed everything is literally true. My religion's creed says that Jesus died, was buried, descended into Hell and rose again after three days. I believe that's true, but I don't know if it is literally true. You mean it might be true, it might just be a story you like and it doesn't matter to you either way? Because most people think it makes it quite a bit of difference if Jesus came alive again or just stayed dead like everybody else. The difference between Jesus being just another guy who said some stuff, take it or leave it, and Jesus being the Son of God whose Utterances are of Great Significance to all Mankind. That Difference Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I ate the profiteroles, but I did not eat the tiramisu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 04:59, Ritu wrote: William T Goodall wrote: Religions don't present their stories as being literally true? They don't claim that supernatural entities meddle in human affairs? They don't claim that miraculous events actually happen? They don't claim that divinely inspired prophets said things we must pay special heed to because despite appearances they aren't the ravings of charlatans or the mentally ill? Depends on the religion, I guess, and on the branch you are perched on. Hinduism, fr'ex, definitely has a Bhakti strand where the virtues of faith and love are extolled. But then there is the atheistic branch, and it's accompanying holy texts, which scoff at the notion of God and blind belief. Charaka's philosophy is a mix of atheism and agnosticism. And the Vedanta has always maintained that the only thing one is required to believe in is what one has seen and experienced for oneself - that all else ought to be dismissed as the babbling of fools... Atheist religions have different defining irrational beliefs. Nazism had 'Aryan supremacy', the Greens have 'Nuclear Power is Evil' and so on. Most of the argument on this list is about the supernatural religions however and those are what I was addressing. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Mac OS X is a rock-solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer it to Linux. - Bill Joy. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
William T Goodall wrote: Atheist religions have different defining irrational beliefs. Nazism had 'Aryan supremacy', the Greens have 'Nuclear Power is Evil' and so on. I am sure they do, but I really was talking about the religion I grew up with, and if you wish to place it in this classification, then I'd like to hear what irrational defining beliefs you find therein. Most of the argument on this list is about the supernatural religions however and those are what I was addressing. Oh, but you clearly mentioned the Gita, and by implication the story surrounding its origin [my favourite story in the world after all, and I do love the fact that the book originated as nothing than an exhortation for a man to stop being soft, and to kill in battle], and that tradition has enough supernatural to satisfy any fan of SFF. So if you are placing Hinduism here, then how do you square that with the other traditions I mentioned earlier, and your statement that all religions peddle lies as truths? Ritu -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Mac OS X is a rock-solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer it to Linux. - Bill Joy. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.23/924 - Release Date: 7/28/2007 3:50 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.23/924 - Release Date: 7/28/2007 3:50 PM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 12:33, Ritu wrote: William T Goodall wrote: Atheist religions have different defining irrational beliefs. Nazism had 'Aryan supremacy', the Greens have 'Nuclear Power is Evil' and so on. I am sure they do, but I really was talking about the religion I grew up with, and if you wish to place it in this classification, then I'd like to hear what irrational defining beliefs you find therein. All religions contain irrational defining beliefs (supernatural or otherwise) else they wouldn't be religions. Accepting some piece[s] of nonsense on faith is part of adopting a religious belief. Most of the argument on this list is about the supernatural religions however and those are what I was addressing. Oh, but you clearly mentioned the Gita, and by implication the story surrounding its origin [my favourite story in the world after all, and I do love the fact that the book originated as nothing than an exhortation for a man to stop being soft, and to kill in battle], and that tradition has enough supernatural to satisfy any fan of SFF. So if you are placing Hinduism here, then how do you square that with the other traditions I mentioned earlier, and your statement that all religions peddle lies as truths? From Wikipedia The content of the text is a conversation between Krishna and Arjuna taking place on the battlefield of Kurukshetra just prior to the start of a climactic war. Responding to Arjuna's confusion and moral dilemma, Krishna explains to Arjuna his duties as a warrior and Prince and elaborates on a number of different Yogic and Vedantic philosophies, with examples and analogies. This has led to the Gita often being described as a concise guide to Hindu philosophy and also as a practical, self-contained guide to life. During the discourse, Krishna reveals his identity as the Supreme Being Himself (Bhagavan), blessing Arjuna with an awe-inspiring glimpse of His divine absolute form. Clearly steaming with supernatural bullshit. If you just treat it as a nice story then you are rejecting it as religion. Enjoying the stories of Greek mythology isn't the same as believing the ancient Greek religion. Belief Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home. -- Ken Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 02:45, Nick Arnett wrote: Many religions have creeds -- short statements of faith that one chooses to accept as true if one is to profess that faith. Creeds exists specifically to identify the key truths in one's faith. There would be no need for them if everybody believed everything is literally true. The Ecumenical Nicene creed of the majority of the world's Christians. We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this tosh you are not a Christian. If you say you believe all of it but not that it's literally true then you are using the word 'believe' incorrectly and are deluding yourself. Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time. - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 13:33, Ritu wrote: William T Goodall wrote: All religions contain irrational defining beliefs (supernatural or otherwise) else they wouldn't be religions. Accepting some piece[s] of nonsense on faith is part of adopting a religious belief. That is a wonderful non-answer to what I said... It completely answers what you said. Clearly steaming with supernatural bullshit. Not bullshit, please. It really *is* a wonderful story - great political drama, lovely dialogues, great sex, heart-stopping pathos Vyasa acquitted himself very well indeed. If you just treat it as a nice story then you are rejecting it as religion. I never accepted it as religion, for I have never accepted religion. Stories, though, are easier to believe in as they are far less intrusive. :) Enjoying the stories of Greek mythology isn't the same as believing the ancient Greek religion. Very true. And disbelieving in religion isn't the same as believing all religion is evil. a) Promoting falsehoods as true is Evil. b) Religion promotes falsehoods as true. a),b) - Therefore religion is Evil. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
William T Goodall wrote: All religions contain irrational defining beliefs (supernatural or otherwise) else they wouldn't be religions. Accepting some piece[s] of nonsense on faith is part of adopting a religious belief. That is a wonderful non-answer to what I said... Clearly steaming with supernatural bullshit. Not bullshit, please. It really *is* a wonderful story - great political drama, lovely dialogues, great sex, heart-stopping pathos Vyasa acquitted himself very well indeed. If you just treat it as a nice story then you are rejecting it as religion. I never accepted it as religion, for I have never accepted religion. Stories, though, are easier to believe in as they are far less intrusive. :) Enjoying the stories of Greek mythology isn't the same as believing the ancient Greek religion. Very true. And disbelieving in religion isn't the same as believing all religion is evil. Ritu No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.23/924 - Release Date: 7/28/2007 3:50 PM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
William said: It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this tosh you are not a Christian. I think it's possible to disbelieve some aspects of it while believing other things of a similar character and still be a Christian. For example, the Nicene Creed was a formal rejection of Arianism(*) - that's what the eternally begotten of the Father... begotten, not made part is about - but I don't think anyone could sensibly argue that Arians aren't Christians, and the First Council of Nicaea certainly didn't stamp out what was afterwards the Arian heresy. Rich GCU Truth Versus Truth (*) Arius and his followers believed that Jesus was created by God the Father at some point in time rather than having existed eternally. I'm not entirely sure how eternally begotten is any different to created, but then I'm not a theologian. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 13:55, Richard Baker wrote: William said: It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this tosh you are not a Christian. I think it's possible to disbelieve some aspects of it while believing other things of a similar character and still be a Christian. For example, the Nicene Creed was a formal rejection of Arianism(*) - that's what the eternally begotten of the Father... begotten, not made part is about - but I don't think anyone could sensibly argue that Arians aren't Christians, and the First Council of Nicaea certainly didn't stamp out what was afterwards the Arian heresy. Which cults are or are not really Christian is one of those religious questions... The Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses represent themselves as Christian but reject the Nicene Creed. Some Protestant churches claim Catholics aren't really Christians and the Pope has recently reaffirmed that the Catholic church is the One True Christian church. Zealots Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ 'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
I am deleting, unread, all posts with this title because nobody is saying anything new. Everybody has their minds made up and all the force of their deepest values behind it. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ __ The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual.The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community.--William James From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:32:57 +0100 On 29 Jul 2007, at 13:55, Richard Baker wrote: William said: It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this tosh you are not a Christian. I think it's possible to disbelieve some aspects of it while believing other things of a similar character and still be a Christian. For example, the Nicene Creed was a formal rejection of Arianism(*) - that's what the eternally begotten of the Father... begotten, not made part is about - but I don't think anyone could sensibly argue that Arians aren't Christians, and the First Council of Nicaea certainly didn't stamp out what was afterwards the Arian heresy. Which cults are or are not really Christian is one of those religious questions... The Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses represent themselves as Christian but reject the Nicene Creed. Some Protestant churches claim Catholics aren't really Christians and the Pope has recently reaffirmed that the Catholic church is the One True Christian church. Zealots Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ 'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 14:37, PAT MATHEWS wrote: I am deleting, unread, all posts with this title because nobody is saying anything new. Everybody has their minds made up and all the force of their deepest values behind it. It's those blinkered and irrational advocates of religion that have their minds made up and nothing new to say. I'm always ready to enter a rational discussion and point out where they're wrong. Reasonable Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 15:31, Dan Minettte wrote: On the whole, it appears that the literature indicates that membership in a religious community has a positive effect on one's health. Correlation doesn't mean causation Dan. In a highly religious society like the USA those who are not members of a religious community are also likely to be outsiders in other ways which is likely to impact their health and so on. But you knew that. For example, there are studies that indicate that people who are prayed for tend to do better in recovering from surgery/illnesses. I am not claiming a miraculous nature for this, since the prayer support is known to the individual and there are clear possibilities for very mundane explanations for this. It would be wise not to claim anything miraculous since the last experiment I saw about this didn't tell the patients that they were being prayed for and found they didn't get any better than the ones who weren't being prayed for. But you knew that. Knows there is no God too Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Baker Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 5:00 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged Dave said: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. So is your position that religions are useful rather than true? The question of the truth of religious views vs. the usefulness of them is a worthwhile one. In order to address this, I'd like to look at they way you (Rich) and I agree and disagree on various matters. Over the years, when it comes to the nature and the findings of science, we tend to either agree initially, or one of us can straightforwardly convince the other through the the liuse of data so that we can come to an agreement. (From my memory at least) both of us see science as being comprised of models of observation, not statements about reality. I know of no fundamental scientific disagreements between us. If we were to differ, say on the latest work in mesoscopic physics, we could straightforwardly reconcile those differences by reference to the literature. When it comes to our philosophical viewpoints, we have no such recourse. I'm a theist, and you are a non-theist.at least that's what I've gleamed. There is no experiment that either one of us can propose to falsify the belief of one of us and confirm the belief of the other. So, where does this place discussions of religion? Is there nothing empirically based that can be said about them? I know that testable empirical claims can be made about religion. Religion is an addiction, like one to cigarettes or crack, or heroin. It holds societies together. It is inherently dysfunctional. It aids the lives of the religious, it harms them. These are statements that can be tested. I see David's comment as referring to this. On the whole, it appears that the literature indicates that membership in a religious community has a positive effect on one's health. For example, there are studies that indicate that people who are prayed for tend to do better in recovering from surgery/illnesses. I am not claiming a miraculous nature for this, since the prayer support is known to the individual and there are clear possibilities for very mundane explanations for this. Again, there are indications of a anti-correlation between an active membership in a church and self-destructive behavior. It is not surprising that religious belief is also correlated with social behavior (defining it as the opposite of anti-social behavior). Our church has a larger number of volunteers helping others, as well as significant monetary contributions. Virtually every church I know of has youth groups, staffed with volunteers who work with, listen to, and counsel the youth. Community support for adolescents is extremely beneficial, and churches, in the US, are the main mechanism by which a true community supports its youth. Does this prove that religions are true and that God exists? Absolutely not. Truth is not subject to empirical verification. What it does is falsify the idea that religion is akin mental illness. To see this, lets look at how homosexuality moved away from a classification as a mental illness/abnormal behavior into simply a difference. If we look at DSM-4 classifications we find a commonality in the behaviors that are dysfunctional: they interfere with the person's normal life. Whether it is an addiction, OCD, or panic attacks, mental and behavioral health problems cause other problems. Homosexuality did not demonstrate this. It's true that there were anxieties correlated with homosexuality, but they can be attributed to the disapproval of parents, etc.and they did not spring from the direct interference with a normal life. Thus, there was no empirical base for this classification, and it was removed. So, when we look at the positive correlation between active involvement in a church (religious community) and both health and social behavior, we can say.on an empirical basis, that being religious is, in general, good for one's own health as well as beneficial to the local community. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 7:25 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged (And some people are closer to being wired to respond only to facts than others.) I know that there are folks who claim to respond just to facts, but I've noticed that they really don't just deal with facts. One problem that we have in this is that a lot of things that aren't facts are labeled as such in order to give them greater credibility in the minds of those who make the claims. Facts are repeatable empirical observations. Even gravity is not a fact, it is a theory that
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 15:31, Dan Minettte wrote: There is no experiment that either one of us can propose to falsify the belief of one of us and confirm the belief of the other. So, where does this place discussions of religion? Is there nothing empirically based that can be said about them? This whole you can't prove a negative' defence of religious belief is spurious and ridiculous. Nobody who puts forward this argument actually applies it any area of their life other than the defence of their otherwise indefensible religious belief since the consequences would be bizarre and unwelcome. You can't prove UFOs manned by yetis don't abduct you every night and probe you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life - Terry Pratchett ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William T Goodall Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:55 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged On 29 Jul 2007, at 15:31, Dan Minettte wrote: On the whole, it appears that the literature indicates that membership in a religious community has a positive effect on one's health. Correlation doesn't mean causation Dan. In a highly religious society like the USA those who are not members of a religious community are also likely to be outsiders in other ways which is likely to impact their health and so on. But you knew that. The US is religious, but most people are not active members of religious communities. I can see how a small fraction of people being outsiders could have a different mechanism (say atheists in the US being less healthy), but most people are religious, but not particularly active. One truism with any social study is that the arrow of causality is extremely difficult, at best, to establish. Thus, Communism has not been falsified in the same sense that the aether has. As a result, language such as the evidence indicates is usedbecause it reflects the state of studies such as these. If you want, you could argue that healthy people tend to be religious and people with social and behavior health issues tend to be agnostic and atheists, I guessbut I think the proposed mechanisms are better explained by the causality going in the other direction. Still, if your point is that social sciences aren't...that's valid. But, at the same time, studies do provide indications better than random chance. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Dan said: If we were to differ, say on the latest work in mesoscopic physics, we could straightforwardly reconcile those differences by reference to the literature. Yes. And if we differed about physics beyond the current frontiers of knowledge we could in principle resolve those differences through further experiments. Actually, this is almost but not quite true because there are not only theories whose predictions differ only beyond the scope of current experiments - for example, general relativity and gauge gravity - but also differences in interpretation of theories. I don't know if we have any differences in our interpretations of quantum mechanics, for example, but I doubt it as I don't really have any strong preferences for any particular interpretation. When it comes to our philosophical viewpoints, we have no such recourse. I'm a theist, and you are a non-theist.at least that's what I've gleamed. Yes, that's true. There is no experiment that either one of us can propose to falsify the belief of one of us and confirm the belief of the other. So, where does this place discussions of religion? Is there nothing empirically based that can be said about them? I know that testable empirical claims can be made about religion. Religion is an addiction, like one to cigarettes or crack, or heroin. It holds societies together. It is inherently dysfunctional. It aids the lives of the religious, it harms them. These are statements that can be tested. I see David's comment as referring to this. I think there are at least four classes of interesting question that can be asked about religions: - Questions about direct religious experience. What are the neurological mechanisms underlying feelings of transcendent presences or oneness with the universe or grasping eternal meanings or whatever? - Questions about the truth or otherwise of beliefs and assertions that are beyond empirical investigation. (However, some religious beliefs are clearly within the realm of empirical investigation, such as the beliefs of young Earth creationists.) - Historical questions. How did religions arise? How do they change with time? Which factors help some prosper when others fail? How do ideas flow between them? - Sociological questions, such as those about the benefits or otherwise to society of religions, the dynamics of religious communities and so forth. Collectively, these classes of questions include plenty of aspects of religions that can be empirically investigated. It's only some of the second class that are necessarily in the realm of belief. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 20:26, Dan Minettte wrote: If you want, you could argue that healthy people tend to be religious and people with social and behavior health issues tend to be agnostic and atheists, I guessbut I think the proposed mechanisms are better explained by the causality going in the other direction. The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. The UK is one of the least religious advanced countries and much healthier than the USA. Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. Trends Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time. - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 20:26, Dan Minettte wrote: On Behalf Of William T Goodall Correlation doesn't mean causation Dan. In a highly religious society like the USA those who are not members of a religious community are also likely to be outsiders in other ways which is likely to impact their health and so on. But you knew that. The US is religious, but most people are not active members of religious communities. I can see how a small fraction of people being outsiders could have a different mechanism (say atheists in the US being less healthy), but most people are religious, but not particularly active. Even if lying to people does make them healthier/happier it's still wrong. And it's not just wrong it's corrosive and destructive in the long run. Lotus Eaters Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products. - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
At 10:25 AM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: You can't prove UFOs manned by yetis don't abduct you every night and probe you Maru That explains why I wake up every morning with an overwhelming desire to get to the bathroom and smear some Preparation-H on my butt! Thanks Maru! -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:12, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 10:25 AM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: You can't prove UFOs manned by yetis don't abduct you every night and probe you Maru That explains why I wake up every morning with an overwhelming desire to get to the bathroom and smear some Preparation-H on my butt! Thanks Maru! Oh no! I've started a new religion! Prophet Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products. - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
At 03:08 PM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. [...] Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. Is there any other common factor between those two statistics? Correlation Again Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:23, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 03:08 PM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. [...] Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. Is there any other common factor between those two statistics? The USA is anomalous because in every other advanced nation rising prosperity and rising status of women is accompanied by falling birth rates rising life expectancy and declining religious belief. Other than in the USA high levels of religious belief are mostly found in poor countries with high birth rates lower life expectancies and low status for women. It might be possible to use factor analysis or other statistical techniques to examine hypotheses about the detrimental effects of religion on national populations. There isn't a contradiction between religious belief being relatively beneficial to individuals in a population but detrimental to the population as a whole. Not my field Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home. -- Ken Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
At 06:52 PM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:23, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 03:08 PM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. [...] Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. Is there any other common factor between those two statistics? At 01:02 PM Wednesday 7/18/2007, Dan Minette wrote: Subject: Re: U.S. health care [...] Let me give you an example from one of the clearest numbers for which the US performs relatively poorly: infant mortality. The US's rate, about 7/5000 live births is far above the EU rate of 5.6/1000. This is a horrid statistic. We find, though, that the white, non-Hispanic rate is close to the EU: 5.8/1000. The black rate, on the other hand, is very high: 13.8. There is an obvious conclusion to be reached: this is a function of the disparity of income between whites and blacks causing differences in medical care. However, looking at different numbers, we see that it's not this simple. The Hispanic rate (5.7/1000) is below that of white, non-Hispanics at 5.7. While Hispanic households average more income than black households (I'd guess it's because of the greater likelihood of a Hispanic household containing multiple adults) its far closer to the black number than the white, non-Hispanic. Further, one sees that even black women who completed college have a significantly worse rate than white women who haven't completed grade school. 10.6/1000 vs. 6.3/1000. These data indicate that something besides income is affecting the situation. One good candidate, bemoaned by black ministers and physicians, is the general distrust of physicians by the black community. They are far less likely to use medical services than Hispanics or non-Hispanic whites, even when it is available. That problem will not be solved by switching the system of insurance. That's just one example of the complexity of the problem, there are a score. There is no flip solution to the problems with the US health care system. Dan M. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true That is patently untrue. Hey, you just told an untrue story! Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 28 Jul 2007, at 20:16, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true That is patently untrue. Religions don't present their stories as being literally true? They don't claim that supernatural entities meddle in human affairs? They don't claim that miraculous events actually happen? They don't claim that divinely inspired prophets said things we must pay special heed to because despite appearances they aren't the ravings of charlatans or the mentally ill? The Koran, Tripitaka, Bhagavad Gita, Bible et cetera are just texts written by people and have no more claim to divine afflatus than the Norse Eddas, the secret texts of Scientology or even my shopping list? Hey, you just told an untrue story! It seems not. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 7/28/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28 Jul 2007, at 20:16, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true That is patently untrue. Religions don't present their stories as being literally true? No, they don't. Some people choose to take all of them literally, but the vast majority do not take every religious story literally. Surely you knew that. Perhaps you are confusing the stereotypes of fundamentalism with reality? Many religions have creeds -- short statements of faith that one chooses to accept as true if one is to profess that faith. Creeds exists specifically to identify the key truths in one's faith. There would be no need for them if everybody believed everything is literally true. My religion's creed says that Jesus died, was buried, descended into Hell and rose again after three days. I believe that's true, but I don't know if it is literally true. Some Christian churches would consider me a heretic for that, I suppose, but most are quite tolerant of those who confess their lack of complete understanding. Only the fundamentalists think they understand it all... and I have no truck with them. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
William T Goodall wrote: Religions don't present their stories as being literally true? They don't claim that supernatural entities meddle in human affairs? They don't claim that miraculous events actually happen? They don't claim that divinely inspired prophets said things we must pay special heed to because despite appearances they aren't the ravings of charlatans or the mentally ill? Depends on the religion, I guess, and on the branch you are perched on. Hinduism, fr'ex, definitely has a Bhakti strand where the virtues of faith and love are extolled. But then there is the atheistic branch, and it's accompanying holy texts, which scoff at the notion of God and blind belief. Charaka's philosophy is a mix of atheism and agnosticism. And the Vedanta has always maintained that the only thing one is required to believe in is what one has seen and experienced for oneself - that all else ought to be dismissed as the babbling of fools... So yes, it depends on the religion, and the form of the particular religion Ritu No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 - Release Date: 7/27/2007 6:01 PM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Dave Land wrote: Religious Concepts Promote Cooperation Effect seems to work regardless of a person's beliefs. The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. contrarian You still have to prove that _cooperation_ is beneficial to humankind. Maybe fierce ruthless competition is better :-P /contrarian Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Dave said: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. So is your position that religions are useful rather than true? Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Perspective Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Invest in a company any idiot can run because sooner or later any idiot is going to run it. - Warren Buffet ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
I totally disagree with the statement that belief in God promoted the evolution of cooperation. I think natural inclinations of socialization and the fact that humans are more successful as a group is what did the trick... Although the statement could have just been bad journalistic writing... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h) Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. -Original Message- From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:44:13 To:Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged Folks, From Nature: Religious Concepts Promote Cooperation Effect seems to work regardless of a person's beliefs. A belief in God may have promoted the evolution of cooperative behaviour, say Canadian psychologists. They found that priming people with religious concepts makes them more generous — regardless of whether they declare themselves to be believers. Notions of civic responsibility also promote cooperation, suggesting that religion might encourage altruism by invoking an omniscient judge of behaviour. More at http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070723/full/070723-6.html The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. If it is a delusion, it is a pro-social delusion. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Depends on how fscked-up the society is, perhaps. They're only lies to those who narrowly equate truth with factuality. But there I go again, being nuanced, damned Liberal that I am. Perhaps they are not so much blatant lies as feelings and unprovable -- and, of course, un-disprovable -- ideas that ennoble us. The article was very clear that it didn't matter that the subjects of the experiment actually believed the religious ideas, only that they were primed with them or the beneficial effects of generosity and cooperation to kick in. It's closer to the AA idea of a higher power (even if your higher power is a salt shaker) -- not necessarily something that you think _is_ God, but something that takes you outside yourself, helps you experience IAAMOAC. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:59 AM, Richard Baker wrote: Dave said: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. So is your position that religions are useful rather than true? Like much of what I believe, it's a little of each. There's an old saw about the priest who says that the Bible is true ... and some of it happened. Truth and factuality _intersect_ without necessarily being the same thing. They are congruent, but not necessarily identical. Myths encapsulate truth, even though the events in them did not necessarily happen. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 18:52, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Depends on how fscked-up the society is, perhaps. They're only lies to those who narrowly equate truth with factuality. But there I go again, being nuanced, damned Liberal that I am. I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. People get annoyed when fiction is presented as fact - the latest brouhaha about a phoney autobiography proves that. I like a good story but I don't like being lied to. Clear Cut Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. I don't think anybody is arguing about that. We're talking about the relationship among facts, fiction and truth. A fictional story can contain truths. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush is fiction to anybody who hasn't hunted birds, but it still contains a true, though generalized, statement. The kinds of truth contained in made-up stories are generalized truths, the kind of thing that becomes common sense. Wouldn't you agree that there are significant truths contain in David Brin's fiction? Truths about the nature of people and technology? Earth was prescient -- it was telling truths about privacy and technology that hadn't come about yet! One could argue that it communicated those true idea even better than his non-fiction book did. It certainly sold more... ;-) Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. We are not all equally wired. So generalizing something from one person's wiring may lead to faulty logic when trying to figure out how someone else's brain works. Just sayin'. (And some people are closer to being wired to respond only to facts than others.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 22:21, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. I don't think anybody is arguing about that. Proponents of religion always seem to be. We're talking about the relationship among facts, fiction and truth. A fictional story can contain truths. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush is fiction to anybody who hasn't hunted birds, but it still contains a true, though generalized, statement. The kinds of truth contained in made-up stories are generalized truths, the kind of thing that becomes common sense. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true rather than entertaining stories that may contain some truth (and some wacko ideas best ignored.) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
