Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Ah, the chicken or the egg issue….
Martha

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Alan Winston via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martha --
> 
> I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of the 
> contra-style Mad Robin.
> 
> -- Alan
> 
> On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>> Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella 
>> turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and 
>> teach where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why 
>> bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching 
>> the original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but 
>> otherwise that information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is 
>> listening to and doesn’t help in the teaching. If I were calling a medley 
>> without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get the job done as that’s 
>> what the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, 
>> for the reasons you  mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and 
>> “petronella”? It’s not as if we have 200 different calls people need to know 
>> to do contra - these have been in use regularly for many years now and I 
>> don’t quite understand what the fuss is all about.
>> 
>> Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes 
>> and no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though 
>> I’m not sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single 
>> version, so I suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
>> Martha
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
>>> as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
>>> 
>>> Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
>>> and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
>>> the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
>>> 
>>> If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
>>> to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
>>> all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
>>> but means something completely different.
>>> 
>>> I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
>>> contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
>>> there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
>>> everything works fine from then on.
>>> 
>>> And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
>>> expect people not to do it! :-)
>>> 
>>> Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
>>> Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
>>> without using any of those words?
>>> 
>>> But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
>>> hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
>>> across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
>>> completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
>>> Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
>>> in a different part of America a century ago.
>>> 
>>> I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
>>> "Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
>>> to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
>>> around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
>>> strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
>>> Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
>>> defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
>>> 
>>> Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
>>> every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
>>> teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
>>> standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
>>> settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
>>> of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
>>> 
>>> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
>>> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>>> 
>>> Happy dancing,
>>> John
>>> 
>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> 

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Alan Winston via Callers]

Martha --

I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of 
the contra-style Mad Robin.


-- Alan

On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:

Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella turn" at 
least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and teach where necessary, without a 
reference to the original dance. Why bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I 
were teaching the original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise that 
information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and doesn’t help in the 
teaching. If I were calling a medley without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get 
the job done as that’s what the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, 
for the reasons you  mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as 
if we have 200 different calls people need to know to do contra - these have been in use regularly 
for many years now and I don’t quite understand what the fuss is all about.

Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and 
no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not 
sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I 
suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
Martha



On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
 wrote:

Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"

Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.

If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.

I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.

And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)

Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?

But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.

I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!

Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!

Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, Neal Schlein wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2015 8:50 AM, "Aahz Maruch via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
>>>
>>> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
>>> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>>
>> Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
>> programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
>> only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  
>
> Umm...Aahz, I think you missed the point about standardization in contra
> versus MWSD.

Maybe, but I was responding specifically to the whole phrase "complete
standardisation".  I can rant on and on about the falsity of "dancing by
definition".  ;-)  Obviously square dancing is more standardized than
contra.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
"In 1968 it took the computing power of 2 C-64's to fly a rocket to the moon.
Now, in 1998 it takes the Power of a Pentium 200 to run Microsoft Windows 98.
Something must have gone wrong."  --/bin/fortune

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Neal Schlein via Callers]

Umm...Aahz, I think you missed the point about standardization in contra
versus MWSD.

Yes: technically there are poorly understood and detailed applications in
squares that are not clearly defined, and in contras some of us discuss the
terminology we want to use.  But Callerlab prints definitions and
rulebooks;  CDSS does not.

A and B aren't really analogous in any meaningful way.
:-)

Neal Schlein
On Dec 17, 2015 8:50 AM, "Aahz Maruch via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
> >
> > Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is
> another
> > matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>
> Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
> programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
> only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  An example
> someone told me about last night:
>
> Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
> U-turn back and Roll".  What should be the result?  (Side note:
> reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
> had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)
>
> Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
> avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
> like contra).
>
> An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
> CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and
> "improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or "legal"/"illegal" because they
> have zero power to enforce their decisions.
>
> CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
> Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
> succeed/fail for any given call.
> --
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
> http://rule6.info/
>   <*>   <*>   <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella 
turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and 
teach where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why bother? 
Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching the 
original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise 
that information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and 
doesn’t help in the teaching. If I were calling a medley without teaching, 
saying "petronella turn" would get the job done as that’s what the dancers here 
all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, for the reasons you  
mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as 
if we have 200 different calls people need to know to do contra - these have 
been in use regularly for many years now and I don’t quite understand what the 
fuss is all about.

Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and 
no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not 
sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I 
suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
Martha


> On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
> as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
> 
> Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
> and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
> the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
> 
> If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
> to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
> all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
> but means something completely different.
> 
> I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
> contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
> there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
> everything works fine from then on.
> 
> And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
> expect people not to do it! :-)
> 
> Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
> Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
> without using any of those words?
> 
> But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
> hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
> across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
> completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
> Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
> in a different part of America a century ago.
> 
> I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
> "Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
> to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
> around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
> strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
> Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
> defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
> 
> Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
> every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
> teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
> standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
> settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
> of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
> 
> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
> 
> Happy dancing,
> John
> 
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> 
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
>
> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  An example
someone told me about last night:

Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
U-turn back and Roll".  What should be the result?  (Side note:
reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)

Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
like contra).

An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and 
"improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or "legal"/"illegal" because they
have zero power to enforce their decisions.

CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
succeed/fail for any given call.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[John Sweeney via Callers]

Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"

Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.

If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.

I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.

And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)

Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?

But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.

I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!

Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!

Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent