Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
1. It really has to be called mirror star thru (left star thru was the older term). “Twirl to swap” is worse than wrong in this case because you are neither twirling nor swapping. Slide thru is generally the same move, but differs first because it can be done by two people dancing the same role, and second because it has a quite different result in such a case. 2. Totally different moves in floor pattern, flow, base clarity, and mathematically on the result. If I am facing across the set and slide sideways one couple then circle left 3/4 we end facing up and down. Clear. If I am facing across and circle on the diagonal 3/4 we end facing diagonally, halfway between up and down and across. This “clearly” is wrong, so I have to guess where the real end point is—which in fact probably is not at 3/4, although that COULD be the right answer, too. NOT clear at all. Which is better depends entirely on what comes before/after, as well as the style of your music and the dance itself. Neal Schlein On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:55 AM jim saxe via Callers < callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > On Mar 24, 2019, at 9:52 PM, I wrote: > > > > The term "Left Star Thru" was indeed sometimes used in to refer to a > varian of Star Thru using the gent's right hand and lady's left. > > Ooops. Of course, I meant to say "... a variant of Star Thru using the > gent's _left_ hand and lady's _right_. > > --Jim > > > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > -- Neal Schlein Librarian, Eaton Public Library ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
On Mar 24, 2019, at 9:52 PM, I wrote: > > The term "Left Star Thru" was indeed sometimes used in to refer to a varian > of Star Thru using the gent's right hand and lady's left. Ooops. Of course, I meant to say "... a variant of Star Thru using the gent's _left_ hand and lady's _right_. --Jim ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
On Mar 21, 2019, at 2:29 PM, Rich Sbardella wrote (in part): > Many MWSD calls have left versions. For example Pass Thru (by right > shoulder) and Left Pass thru (by left shoulder). Swing Thru is another. > Swing thru is turn half by the left, half by the right, but Left Swing Thru > is turn half but the left, then half by the right. Left Square Thru is one > that starts with the left hand, BUT the dancers walk the exact same pattern > as a normal, right handed square thru. > > In the case of a star thru and slide thru, I have never danced or called a > Left Star Thru or a Left Slide Thru. ... The term "Left Star Thru" was indeed sometimes used in to refer to a varian of Star Thru using the gent's right hand and lady's left. That usage now appears to be deprecated. The reason, I presume, is that in contrast to calls like "Left Pass Thru" or "Left Swing Thru," the call "Left Star Thru" exhibits the historical bias of directing calls preferentially to the gents. As an example, in the current version of the definition document for the CallerLab Advanced program, the call "Double Star Thru" is defined as follows: From any appropriate formation (e.g. Normal Facing Couples): Those who can Star Thru. Those who can do the mirror image of a Star Thru (an arch is made with the man's left hand and the woman's right hand; the man goes around the arch while the lady goes under). In each part of the call, some dancers must be active. Normal facing couples will end as sashayed couples back-to-back. I've seen versions of the document from c. 2000 that describe the second half of Double Star Thru as a "Left Star Thru" (for those who can) rather than as "the mirror image of a Star Thru." --Jim On Mar 24, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Andy Shore via Callers wrote (in part): > Left Star Thru (edited slightly) > From a boy facing a girl: boy holds left hand up and girl places her right > palm against it. boy steps forward and does a quarter left as the girl passes > the boy left shoulders under the raised arms and does a quarter right. > Finishes as a couple. > https://www.ceder.net/oldcalls/viewsingle.php?RecordId=3616 ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:57 AM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Two questions: > > 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left > hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left > hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left > hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? > > > MWSD offers one option, probably not a term to use in a contra setting. *Arky Star Thru* is a position dependent (rather than dance role dependent version): >From Facing Couples. Beaus do the Boys part, and Belles do the Girls part of a Star Thru. (Everybody uses the inside hand) Ends in Facing Couples. https://www.ceder.net/oldcalls/viewsingle.php?RecordId=155 This is not exactly what you asked for, which is to use the OTHER HAND than typical of your role, but independent of your position. *Left Star Thru (edited slightly)* >From a boy facing a girl: boy holds left hand up and girl places her right palm against it. boy steps forward and does a quarter left as the girl passes the boy left shoulders under the raised arms and does a quarter right. Finishes as a couple. https://www.ceder.net/oldcalls/viewsingle.php?RecordId=3616 Note that Bob Isaacs uses "Jersey Twirl" for a wrong-side California Twirl with the Lark going under. Note that California Twirl (and Jersey Twirl) are 180˚ turns, while Star Thru and Arky Star Thru are 90˚ turns. /Andy Shore ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Hi Rich and all, In MWSD both star and slide thru are gender specific. Dance action In a single smooth motion, Pass Thru and Men Face Right, Women Face Left. Ending formation If two men, Right-Hand Mini-Wave; if two women, Left-Hand Mini-Wave; otherwise, a Couple. Cheers, Bill > On 22/03/2019, at 10:29, Rich Sbardella via Callers > wrote: > > In MWSD Star Thru is one of the few gender specific calls. Slide thru is the > same motion as Star Thru, but without hands. ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Seth, Since a star thru starts with facing dancers, your move could be called as, Pass by the left and face (Across, Face in/out, face up/down). A Left Star Thru would take 4 steps and a pass thru and face XXX, would also take four steps. Rich On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 1:03 PM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Technically, I believe the hands for a CA Twirl and Star Thru are the same > - only difference is which way the dancers are facing. > -- > *From:* Isaac Banner > *Sent:* Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:01:16 PM > *To:* Tepfer, Seth > *Cc:* callers > *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in > LD v Slide > > Isn't #1 just a California Twirl (unless we want to debate whether it can > only be a Cali Twirl if we're using those hands AND they're our outside > hands)? > > For #2 I'd say there isn't much of a difference aside from suggesting a > path on the floor to the dancers. LD circle left might feel more crowded as > a result. > > Isaac > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 9:57 AM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < > callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Two questions: > > 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left > hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left > hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left > hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? > > 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 > and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? > > > Thanks > > Seth > > -- > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
In MWSD Star Thru is one of the few gender specific calls. Slide thru is the same motion as Star Thru, but without hands. In both Star Thru and Slide Thru, the dancers start face to face and end up side by side. In both Star Thru and Slide Thru the dancers pass Right Shoulders and Turn 1/4 Boys/Gents/Larks Turn 1/4 Right as the Girls/Ladies/Ravens Turn 1/4 left.. Many MWSD calls have left versions. For example Pass Thru (by right shoulder) and Left Pass thru (by left shoulder). Swing Thru is another. Swing thru is turn half by the left, half by the right, but Left Swing Thru is turn half but the left, then half by the right. Left Square Thru is one that starts with the left hand, BUT the dancers walk the exact same pattern as a normal, right handed square thru. In the case of a star thru and slide thru, I have never danced or called a Left Star Thru or a Left Slide Thru. I could imagine teaching it as Face your partner/neighbor, Gent use Left hand, Ladies use Right, make an arch, passing Left shoulders turn under the arch. Ladies face 1/4 right, and gents turn 1/4 left. I think the terms Left Star Thru/Left Slide Thru might work with MWSDers, but might confuse contra dancers. Perhaps at a level higher than PLUS, MWSD has a basic for the Left Star Thru. As far as your second question, the only difference I see is in the timing. OTLD Circle left 3/4 is usually done in 8 beats. If you want to shorten a swing, you could call slide left, and then circle left 3/4. I often use this with lots of new dancers allowing 4 beats for the dancers to slide and recognize their new foursome. Rich Sbardella Stafford, CT On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:57 PM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Two questions: > > 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left > hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left > hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left > hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? > > 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 > and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? > > > Thanks > > Seth > > -- > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
On Mar 21, 2019, at 12:02 PM, John Sweeney via Callers wrote: > Hi Seth, > 1) Larry Jennings has a whole section on this in Give-and-Take. > Page 42: Effective Lingo. > > He suggests that you don’t need any fancy names. Just use > “Twirl to Swap”. As you do the walk-through you tell the dancers: > Initial facing > Final facing > Which hands are joined While I hold Larry Jennings in extremely high regard, this is one of the few topics on which I'd venture to differ with him. I think there are many situations where the more specific terms will be not only more concise, but also more effective than "twirl to swap" plus the necessary additional words. The most case is in extemporaneously-called square dance sequences, but I it also applies for no-walk-through contra medleys and even for an ordinary contra dance (with walk-through) if the dance sequence includes more than one kind of "twirl to swap" action. Of course the more specific terms will only be effective if dancers are familiar with them, which they won't be if their local callers avoid those terms as much as possible. Since John has mentioned _Give-and-Take_, there's something I else I should mention. In the book, there's a table listing various ways for dancers to swap places (Box the Gnat, California Twirl, etc.) with info about what hands to use and which way people turn. *DO NOT* trust this table!! It is riddled with errors. Among other things, I suspect that at some point between different drafts of the book, the column headings for the men's actions and the women's actions got swapped but the individual entries didn't all get updated accordingly. And I must presume that this happened at a stage when Larry no longer the energy to check up on things as thoroughly as he would have in healthier days. Besides some apparent reversals of men's and women's roles there are some other things that strike me as incorrect, or at least ambiguous. Unfortunately, I didn't look at the table carefully enough to notice these points and report them or seek clarification while Larry was still living. --Jim ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Hi Seth, 1) Larry Jennings has a whole section on this in Give-and-Take. Page 42: Effective Lingo. He suggests that you don't need any fancy names. Just use "Twirl to Swap". As you do the walk-through you tell the dancers: Initial facing Final facing Which hands are joined You are quite right that Star Thru and California Twirl use the same hands (though Larry appears to have Star Thru wrong in his table!). The different is the initial facing, so one is a 90 degree turn, the other is 180 degrees. I have heard the opposite-hand California Twirl called a Nevada Twirl in California - I don't think they know where Jersey is! Larry calls it a Courtesy Twirl. I agree with Lisa that we should try to use existing terminology correctly in order to avoid confusion. And I wish that callers would use more of the useful terms. For example, many dancers must be confused by the words "Pass the Ocean". They must wonder what that has to do with getting into a Short Wavy Line. If the callers called it an Ocean Wave, and explained that the call was short for "Pass Through to an Ocean Wave" I suspect it would be a lot easier to teach! And Tidal Wave sounds so much better than Long Wavy Line. Or maybe that's just me! :-) 2) Part of the difference is what move you did before the Circle Left 3/4 and what comes after it. Circle Left 3/4 is 6 beats/steps. If it is sandwiched between two swings* then the dancers will be very happy to finish on the diagonal, get straight into the swing, and have two extra beats for the second swing. But if you have different moves before and after then you may want the circle to take the full 8 beats. If you want a circle-based move next then you might want to slide left first to absorb some of the time and finish the circle at the right time to start the next move. If you want to fall back into lines after the circle then you might want to go straight into the circle on the diagonal so there is time to fall back at the end of the circle. Whether the difference will actually affect the timing and flow once the dancers get into the groove is another matter entirely. * The sequence takes up (nearly) half a dance without doing anything interesting. I believe that it is far too over-used. Choreographers, please be more creative! :-) Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs From: Callers On Behalf Of Tepfer, Seth via Callers Sent: 21 March 2019 16:57 To: callers Subject: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide Two questions: 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? Thanks Seth ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Oh, good point. I know Michael Karcher once told me the opposite of a California Twirl was a Jersey Twirl, but I've heard other names used. Taminations and ceder.net seem to indicate that the only specific phrasing used for this is a "mirror star through" (see definitions/demonstrations of double and triple star thru). Isaac On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 10:03 AM Tepfer, Seth wrote: > Technically, I believe the hands for a CA Twirl and Star Thru are the same > - only difference is which way the dancers are facing. > -- > *From:* Isaac Banner > *Sent:* Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:01:16 PM > *To:* Tepfer, Seth > *Cc:* callers > *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in > LD v Slide > > Isn't #1 just a California Twirl (unless we want to debate whether it can > only be a Cali Twirl if we're using those hands AND they're our outside > hands)? > > For #2 I'd say there isn't much of a difference aside from suggesting a > path on the floor to the dancers. LD circle left might feel more crowded as > a result. > > Isaac > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 9:57 AM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < > callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Two questions: > > 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left > hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left > hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left > hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? > > 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 > and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? > > > Thanks > > Seth > > -- > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > > ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
> On Mar 21, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Tepfer, Seth via Callers > wrote: > > Two questions: > What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left hand to > Lady/Raven right hand)? Mirror image star thru. I’m a modern western square dancer, and I chafe when contra callers come up with “new” terminology, or say Star Thru, even though the hands are different. Depending on the starting position, I will say which hands (inside, for example), and who goes wide (Gents, for example). then I will say, “Technically this is a Mirror Image Star thru, but I will call it partner twirl.” Why? Because we do have a good mix of cross over dancers, and calling it a Star Thru will confuse the MWSDers. > 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 and > on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? > As a dancer, I prefer L diagonal circle L. Why? Because it’s easier to finish the swing facing that diagonal than it is to end facing across and then sliding left, which is a separate move added on before the circle. Just my preference. Lisa Greenleaf ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Technically, I believe the hands for a CA Twirl and Star Thru are the same - only difference is which way the dancers are facing. From: Isaac Banner Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:01:16 PM To: Tepfer, Seth Cc: callers Subject: Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide Isn't #1 just a California Twirl (unless we want to debate whether it can only be a Cali Twirl if we're using those hands AND they're our outside hands)? For #2 I'd say there isn't much of a difference aside from suggesting a path on the floor to the dancers. LD circle left might feel more crowded as a result. Isaac On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 9:57 AM Tepfer, Seth via Callers mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: Two questions: 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? Thanks Seth This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Isn't #1 just a California Twirl (unless we want to debate whether it can only be a Cali Twirl if we're using those hands AND they're our outside hands)? For #2 I'd say there isn't much of a difference aside from suggesting a path on the floor to the dancers. LD circle left might feel more crowded as a result. Isaac On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 9:57 AM Tepfer, Seth via Callers < callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Two questions: > > 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left > hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left > hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left > hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? > > 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 > and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? > > > Thanks > > Seth > > -- > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > ___ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
[Callers] Opposite StarThru and functional difference in LD v Slide
Two questions: 1) We have box the gnat (right hand to right hand), swat the flea (left hand to left hand), and star thru (Lark/Gent right hand to Lady/Raven left hand). What is the name of the opposite of a star thru (Lark/Gent left hand to Lady/Raven right hand)? 2) What is the functional difference between slide left circle left 3/4 and on the left diagonal circle left 3/4? Thanks Seth This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
