Re: [Callers] What are they thunking? (was Re: Hand Turns & Safety)
I remember how it was when I was starting to dance. It was tremendous
information overload. So much to remember and perform, seemingly all at once.
\Bob
> On Jul 8, 2019, at 18:30, jim saxe via Callers
> wrote:
>
> On May 18, 2019, at 11:28 AM, Rich Dempsey via Callers
> wrote, regarding flat-hand allemanders:
>
>> ... I still don't understand what those people are thinking.
>
> The question of "what those people are thinking" often comes to my mind in
> relation to dance style points in general. A caller (whether myself or
> someone else) describes something in terms that seem crystal clear; the thing
> they are suggesting is something simple (e.g., "straight wrist, bent
> fingers", as contrasted to, say, a complicated choreographic pattern or a
> long footwork sequence in 11/8 time); perhaps they even do a demonstration
> and specifically call dancers' attention to the details they mean to
> demonstrate ("Notice how my fingers ..."); and yet, once the music starts, a
> large number of dancers do something different from what the caller
> suggested. What on earth are all those people thinking?
>
> When a caller's attempt to put something across to a group of dancers isn't
> very successful, it seems to me that figuring out *why* can be an important
> first step toward coming up with a better approach to teaching that thing in
> the future--or toward having better judgment in the future about whether or
> not to attempt to teach that particular thing (whether it's a styling
> nuance, an unfamiliar figure, a complete dance sequence, or whatever) in any
> particular situation.
>
> So I'd like to get your thoughts about figuring out what's going on when a
> caller's attempt to teach a style point fall flat. What sorts of things do
> you think the nonconforming dancers might be thinking? How do you try to
> judge what the most significant issues are in any particular case, so that
> you can decide what to do differently next time? (I'm pretty sure it
> wouldn't be productive to go around cornering different dancers and saying,
> "Hey, , I noticed that in that dance where I made a big point of
> teaching people to do such-and-such, you kept doing so-and-so. What's up with
> that?") Can you offer any specific stories about how you diagnosed a
> difficulty in putting across a particular style point (whether about
> allemandes or anything else) and how you improved your presentation later?
>
> For anyone who feels like wading through more of my musings, below are some
> possible reasons I've thought of that dancers might not follow a caller's
> styling advice. Some of them may overlap or interact with others, and
> perhaps some of you can think of other important possibilities that I've
> omitted. I don't have any great ideas to offer about how to judge which of
> the possibilities listed below apply in any particular situation. I welcome
> your comments.
>
> --Jim
>
> 1. *Intentional rebellion*: Some dancers may get the vibe that "the caller
> is criticizing us" or "the caller thinks (s)he knows our idea of fun better
> than we do." They may find this presumption on the part of the caller
> extremely off-putting and may decide to show the pompous twit who's boss by
> visibly disobeying. [While it may be tempting to assume intentional
> rebellion as the explanation when you see dancers apparently making no effort
> to follow a very clearly explained suggestion from the caller, I think that
> such instances of outright contrariness are actually quite rare.]
>
> 2. *Informed dissent*: The dancers in question really, truly understand the
> styling the caller is recommending and have really, truly given it a fair
> try--perhaps more than once, and with a variety of different partners and/or
> neighbors at one or more previous dance events--but have concluded that they
> personally prefer a different styling from what the caller is suggesting.
> Furthermore, they have judged, after due consideration, that they will not
> impose awkwardness or discomfort on other dancers by using their own
> preferred styling. [I certainly must grant respect to the preferences of
> dancers in this category--and most especially so when they have some frailty
> or injury that would make it painful to dance in the style recommended by the
> caller. However, there are times when informed dissent strikes me as an
> unlikely explanation for dancer behavior. In particular, it seems unlikely
> to me that most of the dancers who allemande with flat hands, straight
> fingers, and sharply be
nt
> wrists can really have given a fair try to the styling with gently curled
> fingers and straight wrists and found it wanting. Of course I haven't lived
> in all those people's bodies.]
>
> 3. *Genuine ambiguity*: The caller's words may have been ambiguous, and some
> dancers may have followed an interpretation that never occurred to the caller
> but that is
Re: [Callers] What are they thunking? (was Re: Hand Turns & Safety)
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:30:18 -0700, jim saxe via Callers wrote: > 9-?. *???*: What possibilities have I missed? Put me down as a cynical Englishman if you wish, but I think they just don't care! So long as a contra has a partner swing, a neighbor swing and a few allemandes, many contra dancers in the States seem oblivious to anything else. Colin Hume Email co...@colinhume.com Web site http://colinhume.com ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] What are they thunking? (was Re: Hand Turns & Safety)
At the last Style & Technique workshop that I ran at Chippenham Folk Festival, one of the key areas that I focussed on was finishing a flourish with both dancers facing in the correct direction, and on time. One guy failed completely. When my wife danced with him during the lesson, and pointed this out, his attitude was that he liked the way he danced and had no intention of changing it. He seemed completely oblivious to the fact that he made all the ladies late for the next move, and that they didn't like that. I have no idea why he bothered coming to the workshop in the first place! Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs ___ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: [Callers] What are they thunking? (was Re: Hand Turns & Safety)
Jim,
I don't think theres any ill will intended, just a bit of laziness on the
dancers part. So
Done has to WANT to change a habit and make a concerted effort to focus and
practice to make the changes. Several folks don't think the caller is talking
to them so they don't make the effort
On Monday, July 8, 2019 jim saxe via Callers wrote:
On May 18, 2019, at 11:28 AM, Rich Dempsey via Callers
wrote, regarding flat-hand allemanders:
> ... I still don't understand what those people are thinking.
The question of "what those people are thinking" often comes to my mind in
relation to dance style points in general. A caller (whether myself or someone
else) describes something in terms that seem crystal clear; the thing they are
suggesting is something simple (e.g., "straight wrist, bent fingers", as
contrasted to, say, a complicated choreographic pattern or a long footwork
sequence in 11/8 time); perhaps they even do a demonstration and specifically
call dancers' attention to the details they mean to demonstrate ("Notice how my
fingers ..."); and yet, once the music starts, a large number of dancers do
something different from what the caller suggested. What on earth are all
those people thinking?
When a caller's attempt to put something across to a group of dancers isn't
very successful, it seems to me that figuring out *why* can be an important
first step toward coming up with a better approach to teaching that thing in
the future--or toward having better judgment in the future about whether or not
to attempt to teach that particular thing (whether it's a styling nuance, an
unfamiliar figure, a complete dance sequence, or whatever) in any particular
situation.
So I'd like to get your thoughts about figuring out what's going on when a
caller's attempt to teach a style point fall flat. What sorts of things do you
think the nonconforming dancers might be thinking? How do you try to judge
what the most significant issues are in any particular case, so that you can
decide what to do differently next time? (I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be
productive to go around cornering different dancers and saying, "Hey, , I
noticed that in that dance where I made a big point of teaching people to do
such-and-such, you kept doing so-and-so. What's up with that?") Can you offer
any specific stories about how you diagnosed a difficulty in putting across a
particular style point (whether about allemandes or anything else) and how you
improved your presentation later?
For anyone who feels like wading through more of my musings, below are some
possible reasons I've thought of that dancers might not follow a caller's
styling advice. Some of them may overlap or interact with others, and perhaps
some of you can think of other important possibilities that I've omitted. I
don't have any great ideas to offer about how to judge which of the
possibilities listed below apply in any particular situation. I welcome your
comments.
--Jim
1. *Intentional rebellion*: Some dancers may get the vibe that "the caller is
criticizing us" or "the caller thinks (s)he knows our idea of fun better than
we do." They may find this presumption on the part of the caller extremely
off-putting and may decide to show the pompous twit who's boss by visibly
disobeying. [While it may be tempting to assume intentional rebellion as the
explanation when you see dancers apparently making no effort to follow a very
clearly explained suggestion from the caller, I think that such instances of
outright contrariness are actually quite rare.]
2. *Informed dissent*: The dancers in question really, truly understand the
styling the caller is recommending and have really, truly given it a fair
try--perhaps more than once, and with a variety of different partners and/or
neighbors at one or more previous dance events--but have concluded that they
personally prefer a different styling from what the caller is suggesting.
Furthermore, they have judged, after due consideration, that they will not
impose awkwardness or discomfort on other dancers by using their own preferred
styling. [I certainly must grant respect to the preferences of dancers in this
category--and most especially so when they have some frailty or injury that
would make it painful to dance in the style recommended by the caller.
However, there are times when informed dissent strikes me as an unlikely
explanation for dancer behavior. In particular, it seems unlikely to me that
most of the dancers who allemande with flat hands, straight fingers, and
sharply bent
wrists can really have given a fair try to the styling with gently curled
fingers and straight wrists and found it wanting. Of course I haven't lived in
all those people's bodies.]
3. *Genuine ambiguity*: The caller's words may have been ambiguous, and some
dancers may have followed an interpretation that never occurred to the caller
but that is just as plausible as
Re: [Callers] What are they thunking? (was Re: Hand Turns & Safety)
The caller has used up all of his/her attention capital with
repetitive/verbose explanations and boring stories - no one is listening.
The caller does not know how to dance and is being ignored - especially
common among callers who dance for six months and then decide to become
callers.
Body structure - people have different body structures and they work in
different ways. They have learned how to do make their body do what they
need. But that doesn't always include best practices of our dance. I
suspect this is behind a lot of allemande issues.
Cary Ravitz
caryrav...@gmail.com
www.ravitz.us
859-263-5087
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:30 PM jim saxe via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> On May 18, 2019, at 11:28 AM, Rich Dempsey via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote, regarding flat-hand allemanders:
>
> > ... I still don't understand what those people are thinking.
>
> The question of "what those people are thinking" often comes to my mind in
> relation to dance style points in general. A caller (whether myself or
> someone else) describes something in terms that seem crystal clear; the
> thing they are suggesting is something simple (e.g., "straight wrist, bent
> fingers", as contrasted to, say, a complicated choreographic pattern or a
> long footwork sequence in 11/8 time); perhaps they even do a demonstration
> and specifically call dancers' attention to the details they mean to
> demonstrate ("Notice how my fingers ..."); and yet, once the music starts,
> a large number of dancers do something different from what the caller
> suggested. What on earth are all those people thinking?
>
> When a caller's attempt to put something across to a group of dancers
> isn't very successful, it seems to me that figuring out *why* can be an
> important first step toward coming up with a better approach to teaching
> that thing in the future--or toward having better judgment in the future
> about whether or not to attempt to teach that particular thing (whether
> it's a styling nuance, an unfamiliar figure, a complete dance sequence, or
> whatever) in any particular situation.
>
> So I'd like to get your thoughts about figuring out what's going on when a
> caller's attempt to teach a style point fall flat. What sorts of things do
> you think the nonconforming dancers might be thinking? How do you try to
> judge what the most significant issues are in any particular case, so that
> you can decide what to do differently next time? (I'm pretty sure it
> wouldn't be productive to go around cornering different dancers and saying,
> "Hey, , I noticed that in that dance where I made a big point of
> teaching people to do such-and-such, you kept doing so-and-so. What's up
> with that?") Can you offer any specific stories about how you diagnosed a
> difficulty in putting across a particular style point (whether about
> allemandes or anything else) and how you improved your presentation later?
>
> For anyone who feels like wading through more of my musings, below are
> some possible reasons I've thought of that dancers might not follow a
> caller's styling advice. Some of them may overlap or interact with others,
> and perhaps some of you can think of other important possibilities that
> I've omitted. I don't have any great ideas to offer about how to judge
> which of the possibilities listed below apply in any particular situation.
> I welcome your comments.
>
> --Jim
>
> 1. *Intentional rebellion*: Some dancers may get the vibe that "the
> caller is criticizing us" or "the caller thinks (s)he knows our idea of fun
> better than we do." They may find this presumption on the part of the
> caller extremely off-putting and may decide to show the pompous twit who's
> boss by visibly disobeying. [While it may be tempting to assume
> intentional rebellion as the explanation when you see dancers apparently
> making no effort to follow a very clearly explained suggestion from the
> caller, I think that such instances of outright contrariness are actually
> quite rare.]
>
> 2. *Informed dissent*: The dancers in question really, truly understand
> the styling the caller is recommending and have really, truly given it a
> fair try--perhaps more than once, and with a variety of different partners
> and/or neighbors at one or more previous dance events--but have concluded
> that they personally prefer a different styling from what the caller is
> suggesting. Furthermore, they have judged, after due consideration, that
> they will not impose awkwardness or discomfort on other dancers by using
> their own preferred styling. [I certainly must grant respect to the
> preferences of dancers in this category--and most especially so when they
> have some frailty or injury that would make it painful to dance in the
> style recommended by the caller. However, there are times when informed
> dissent strikes me as an unlikely explanation for dancer behavior. In
> particular, it seems unlikely to me
