Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

2010-08-11 Thread Anastassis Perrakis

Dear all,

If I may add  that I find the statement

First, remember that gel filtration elution volumes are independent  
of conditions like flow rate and protein concentration (unless there  
are nonspecific interactions at high concentration), but like I  
described before temp is a factor.


a bit misleading.  While concentration will not change where the  
monomer or the dimer appears in the elution volume, concentration will  
affect the monomer-dimer equilibrium during your gel-filtration run.


Thus, I would say that concentration is a factor. If your dimer has a  
kD of ~100uM, and you inject it at a concentration of ~100uM, after  
getting diluted during gel-filtration (about ten-fold) it will appear  
90% as a monomer ... The results of any analytical technique to  
determine stoichiometry are concentration dependent, and concentration  
is actually the major variable that needs to be considered to define  
the oligomerization state (in AUC this can be done nicely). And do not  
forget that the in-vitro oligomerization state does not necessarily  
imply the same for in vivo, so please do make mutants to prove it  
before submitting the paper ...


A.

On Aug 10, 2010, at 1:38, Bostjan Kobe wrote:


Dear Intekhab

Let me just add to this that gel filtration is not an accurate  
method for
determination of molecular mass, because the migration on the column  
depends

on the shape of the protein.

The following methods can be used to determine molecular mass  
irrespective

of shape:
- MALLS (multi-angle laser light scattering or static light  
sxattering)

- sedimentation equilibrium on analytical ultracentrifuge (AUC)
- native mass spectrometry

For a short recent review on issues associated with determining  
oligomeric

state from crystal structures, with older references and relevant
bioinformatic tools cited in there, please see
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19021571

Bostjan


On 10/08/10 6:26 AM, Maia Cherney ch...@ualberta.ca wrote:

To determine the oligomeric state of a protein (monomer or dimer in  
your
case), it's useful to use the PISA server. You upload your pdb file  
from

the crystal structure.The server calculates the areas of interfaces
(buried area) and  deltaG (change in Gibbs energy) upon oligomer
dissociation. (E. Krissinel and K. Henrick (2007). /Inference of
macromolecular assemblies from crystalline state/. J. Mol. Biol.  
*372*,

774--797 . E. Krissinel and K. Henrick (2005). /Detection of Protein
Assemblies in Crystals/. In: M.R. Berthold /et.al./ (Eds.): CompLife
2005, LNBI 3695, pp. 163--174 http://dx.doi.org/ 
10.1007/11560500_15.
E. Krissinel (2009). /Crystal contacts as nature's docking  
solutions/.

J. Comp. Chem., in press; published on-line 6 May 2009; DOI
10.1002/jcc.21303}
If the interface area (divided by 2 per one protomer) is greater than
1000 A2 and delta G is more than 5kcal/mol (the higher the better),  
it's

a dimer. However, don't forget that most dimers can dissociate into
monomers upon dilution. There is a dynamic equilibrium between dimers
(oligomers) and monomers that depends on their concentration and  
the Kdiss.

Separating them in any method will disturb this equilibrium. If the
re-equilibration time is greater than the separation time, you can  
see

both monomers and dimers. You can even roughly calculate the
dissociation constant:

Kdiss=[monomer]2/[dimer] where brackets mean concentrations. To  
give you
an estimate, at Kdiss=10(-3)M, you have roughly equal concentration  
of
dimers and monomers at 10-3 M and only 10% dimers at 10-4 M.  
Sometimes,

protein needs to dissociate easily for the biological function.

Maia

intekhab alam wrote:

Hi everyone
Sorry for some non specific query!

i am working with a protein that shows a dimer in the crystal
structure but when i tried to figure out that with standard  
molecular

markers in gel filteration (superdex-200, 24ml column) it turned out
to be a monnomer. Native gel analysis after incubating the protein  
at

20 degree, 37 degree showed more dimer at 20 degree celcius as
compared to 37. I tried similar strategy in gel filteration by
incubating my protein at various temperature,where a lot of
precipitation was observed at 37 degree celcius and after removing  
the
precipitates i run the gel filteration that has 0.5 ml higher  
elution

volume as compared to samples incubated at 20 degree celcius and 4
degree celcius.( Is this significant)
Furthermore i have done some experiments in cold room (4 degree)  
where
the elution volume is stuck at a point irrespective of the  
conditions

(as Flow rate, concentration of protein etc) and that is higher than
that of the room temperature by 1 ml.
Standard moleculr weight markers also show higher elution volume  in
cold room in comparison to the room temperature by 1 ml.

I will be highly obliged if someone suggest some literature  or any
otherway to do gel filtrtaion so that i can clearly resolve this
issue. Also let me know if there is 

Re: [ccp4bb] To view the 2mFo-DFc map generated by SIGMAA

2010-08-11 Thread Eleanor Dodson

Actually I think it needs the labels   FWT PHWT

I may be wrong but like REFMAC I think it outputs a ositive FWT and PHWT 
is either equal to PHIC or to PHHIC+180, depending on the sign og

FWT = (2m|Fo| - D|Fc|)


Eleanor


Hailiang Zhang wrote:

Dear Tim:

This is also what I thought. Thanks!

Best Regards, Hailiang



Dear Hailiang,

the man-page of sigmaa claims
  FWT (2m|Fo| - D|Fc|) exp(i AlphaCalc)
  Analogous to 2Fo-Fc map, FFT input: F1=FWT PHI=PHIC
   ^^
so I would leave out WCMB.

Tim

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 01:33:11PM -0400, Hailiang Zhang wrote:

Hi there:

When I generate the mtz file by SIGMAA, and want to view the 2mFo-DFc
map
in coot, should I choose FWT PHIC WCMB combination or just FWT PHIC?
I
think the later is more reasonable and I did see somebody the former as
well. Didn't see explicit instruction in SIGMAA document, and I
appreciate
for any hint.

Best Regards, Hailiang

--
--
Tim Gruene
Institut fuer anorganische Chemie
Tammannstr. 4
D-37077 Goettingen

GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A




[ccp4bb] About using COOT

2010-08-11 Thread Dr. STEPHEN SIN-YIN, CHUI
Dear all,

My protein has two chains A  B. The space gp is P212121. If I want to have a
new PDB file containing the symmetry-equivalent molecule of B (x+1/2, -y+1/2,
z+(0 -1 0)), and keep the chain A (x,y,z) unchanged. How can I do this COOT?

many thanks for this help.

stephen 

-- 
Dr. Stephen Sin-Yin Chui
Research Assistant Professor,
Department of Chemistry,
The University of Hong Kong, Pokfulam Road,
Hong Kong SAR, China.
Tel: 22415814 (Office), 22415818 (X-ray Diffraction Laboratory)


Re: [ccp4bb] To view the 2mFo-DFc map generated by SIGMAA

2010-08-11 Thread Randy Read
Hi Eleanor,

I hate to disagree with you, even partially, but it depends on whether or not 
you're doing phase combination with external phases.  In the usual case with 
just model information, SIGMAA doesn't take the absolute value of 2mFo-DFc so 
it can be positive or negative and goes with the original PHIC.  When phase 
combination is carried out, then the phase of the map coefficient is different 
from any of the input phases, and FWT has to be combined with PHFWT.

There's a discussion in the documentation: 
http://www.ccp4.ac.uk/html/sigmaa.html#files.

Regards,

Randy

On 11 Aug 2010, at 10:52, Eleanor Dodson wrote:

 Actually I think it needs the labels   FWT PHWT
 
 I may be wrong but like REFMAC I think it outputs a ositive FWT and PHWT is 
 either equal to PHIC or to PHHIC+180, depending on the sign og
 FWT = (2m|Fo| - D|Fc|)
 
 
 Eleanor
 
 
 Hailiang Zhang wrote:
 Dear Tim:
 This is also what I thought. Thanks!
 Best Regards, Hailiang
 Dear Hailiang,
 
 the man-page of sigmaa claims
  FWT (2m|Fo| - D|Fc|) exp(i AlphaCalc)
  Analogous to 2Fo-Fc map, FFT input: F1=FWT PHI=PHIC
   ^^
 so I would leave out WCMB.
 
 Tim
 
 On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 01:33:11PM -0400, Hailiang Zhang wrote:
 Hi there:
 
 When I generate the mtz file by SIGMAA, and want to view the 2mFo-DFc
 map
 in coot, should I choose FWT PHIC WCMB combination or just FWT PHIC?
 I
 think the later is more reasonable and I did see somebody the former as
 well. Didn't see explicit instruction in SIGMAA document, and I
 appreciate
 for any hint.
 
 Best Regards, Hailiang
 --
 --
 Tim Gruene
 Institut fuer anorganische Chemie
 Tammannstr. 4
 D-37077 Goettingen
 
 GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A
 
 

--
Randy J. Read
Department of Haematology, University of Cambridge
Cambridge Institute for Medical Research  Tel: + 44 1223 336500
Wellcome Trust/MRC Building   Fax: + 44 1223 336827
Hills RoadE-mail: rj...@cam.ac.uk
Cambridge CB2 0XY, U.K.   www-structmed.cimr.cam.ac.uk


[ccp4bb] process data in R32

2010-08-11 Thread Ray Brown
Hi, I have read all of the past messages about the confusion of H32 and R32 and 
I want to get the correct indexing sp that I can import the .sca file into 
CCP4..

I use DENZO and SCALEPACK in HKL2000. If you read the manual then it states 
that 
space group R32 should only be autoindexed by DENZO on a primitive lattice 
using 
the DENZO keyword H32. This indeed gives a primitive unit cell and not the 
hexagonal setting apparently demanded by CCP4 programs.

What do you do next? It is possible in SCALEPACK to reindex the H32 primitive 
data into a rhombohedral hexagonal setting which SCALEPACK calls R32.  Or 
course 
you cannot import this .sca file into CCP4. Why not? 

I can go into the .sca file and edit the header and change the R32 label to 
H32. 
Does this screw up the indexing?

If anybody has successfully used DENZO/SCALEPACK/CCP4 in space group R32 then 
please tell me how to do it correctly.

Cheers.

Ray 

email ray-br...@att.net

Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

2010-08-11 Thread Maia Cherney

Thank you. Now I understand the difference. I thought there was separation.

Maia

Xuewu Zhang wrote:

Hi Maia,
I have seen your post regarding this before and I just want to point 
out that you may have confused AUC (analytical ultracentrifugation) 
with gradient-based ultra-centrifugation methods for separating 
macromolecules. AUC does not involve separation of different species 
in the sample. There are two types of AUCs: sedimentation velocity and 
sedimentation equilibrium. In sedimentation equilibrium experiments, 
the system reaches the equilibrium at the end, and the monomer/dimer 
ratio, Kd, etc parameters can be worked out by fitting the data to a 
model globally. The shape of the molecule does not matter. For starters:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracentrifuge

Xuewu Zhang




On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:37 AM, chern ch...@ualberta.ca 
mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca wrote:


Hi Anastassis,
 
We are back to the same argument that AUC is not a good method. As

everyone knows, it's a dynamic equilibrium between monomers and
dimers that exists before separation. Once you started separation
in any method, the equilibrium is disturbed now in each separated
band. That will cause re-equilibration and constant migration of
newly formed dimers from the monomer band and newly formed
monomers from the dimer band. The t(eq) is the re-equilibration
time.  Your method of separation of monomers and dimers should be
quick enough before any re-equilibration occurs (t(sep)t(eq)).
Otherwise, you get a mess and smearing of bands. Also, most
conventional methods depend on shape etc. I find SEC is most
convenient.
 
Maia
 
 
 
 
 


- Original Message -
*From:* Anastassis Perrakis mailto:a.perra...@nki.nl
*To:* chern mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca
*Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 2:38 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] monomeric coiled coil--updated


On 5 Jul 2010, at 22:04, chern wrote:


Hi, Anastassis
If you had just a monomer at  the start time then t(eq)
is the time to get to equilibrium with the dimer and vice
versa.


sorry to say but the definition of that time in a
biophysical sense, is in my opinion equal to infinity and
cannot be defined.
I am being a bit pedantic here, but I am just saying that
t(eq) cannot be defined, it can be approximated, and thus
t(eq) is wrong to define.
Why not talk about kD and kON and kOFF that have robust
definitions based on kinetic properties and a physical
meaning?


When you separated the two bands (monomers and dimers) in
AUC, and then the equilibrium is quickly established in
each band again what's the point?  So, to be successful
in this method, you need to have t(eq) much lower than
the separation run. Ideally, if you could
separate monomers and dimers instantly and freeze them in
the separated state, then you can have good estimate of
the both fractions. I think this is clear.


But, I disagree and I think what you say is wrong. The
equilibrium is dynamic. Why do you insist there is a point
in 'separation'?
The monomer changes to a dimer and vise versa in a
continuous fashion. All you can say is that in a given
concentration the equilibrium is shifted towards one or
the other form. But its a dynamic one. Even at a
concentration which is 50-50 between two states, the
molecules that are in one state or another are changing
according to kinetic parameters that are characteristic
for the complex. Even at 100% - lets say of a dimer - by
your definition, (100% cannot exist since its reached
asymptotically by any derivation about equilibriums)
molecules will fall to monomer and will reassemble to a
dimer rapidly.

To be honest I think that talking about t(eq) is largely
wrong in biophysical terms, since it does not exist.

A.

 
 
That's what I meant.
 
Maia


- Original Message -
*From:* Anastassis Perrakis mailto:a.perra...@nki.nl
*To:* chern mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca
*Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 11:45 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] monomeric coiled coil--updated


On 5 Jul 2010, at 19:30, chern wrote:


Thank you for reply.
 
1.It will be nice to have mass-spec method for

non-covalent complexes.


Carol Robinson is doing these 

Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

2010-08-11 Thread Maia Cherney

Hi ccp4bb

Could you please send me some references with the sedimentation 
equilibrium calculations of Kd, monomer/dimer ratio etc.


Maia

Maia Cherney wrote:
Thank you. Now I understand the difference. I thought there was 
separation.


Maia

Xuewu Zhang wrote:

Hi Maia,
I have seen your post regarding this before and I just want to point 
out that you may have confused AUC (analytical ultracentrifugation) 
with gradient-based ultra-centrifugation methods for separating 
macromolecules. AUC does not involve separation of different species 
in the sample. There are two types of AUCs: sedimentation velocity 
and sedimentation equilibrium. In sedimentation equilibrium 
experiments, the system reaches the equilibrium at the end, and the 
monomer/dimer ratio, Kd, etc parameters can be worked out by fitting 
the data to a model globally. The shape of the molecule does not 
matter. For starters:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracentrifuge

Xuewu Zhang




On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:37 AM, chern ch...@ualberta.ca 
mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca wrote:


Hi Anastassis,
 We are back to the same argument that AUC is not a good 
method. As

everyone knows, it's a dynamic equilibrium between monomers and
dimers that exists before separation. Once you started separation
in any method, the equilibrium is disturbed now in each separated
band. That will cause re-equilibration and constant migration of
newly formed dimers from the monomer band and newly formed
monomers from the dimer band. The t(eq) is the re-equilibration
time.  Your method of separation of monomers and dimers should be
quick enough before any re-equilibration occurs (t(sep)t(eq)).
Otherwise, you get a mess and smearing of bands. Also, most
conventional methods depend on shape etc. I find SEC is most
convenient.
 Maia

- Original Message -

*From:* Anastassis Perrakis mailto:a.perra...@nki.nl
*To:* chern mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca
*Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 2:38 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] monomeric coiled coil--updated


On 5 Jul 2010, at 22:04, chern wrote:


Hi, Anastassis
If you had just a monomer at  the start time then t(eq)
is the time to get to equilibrium with the dimer and vice
versa.


sorry to say but the definition of that time in a
biophysical sense, is in my opinion equal to infinity and
cannot be defined.
I am being a bit pedantic here, but I am just saying that
t(eq) cannot be defined, it can be approximated, and thus
t(eq) is wrong to define.
Why not talk about kD and kON and kOFF that have robust
definitions based on kinetic properties and a physical
meaning?


When you separated the two bands (monomers and dimers) in
AUC, and then the equilibrium is quickly established in
each band again what's the point?  So, to be successful
in this method, you need to have t(eq) much lower than
the separation run. Ideally, if you could
separate monomers and dimers instantly and freeze them in
the separated state, then you can have good estimate of
the both fractions. I think this is clear.


But, I disagree and I think what you say is wrong. The
equilibrium is dynamic. Why do you insist there is a point
in 'separation'?
The monomer changes to a dimer and vise versa in a
continuous fashion. All you can say is that in a given
concentration the equilibrium is shifted towards one or
the other form. But its a dynamic one. Even at a
concentration which is 50-50 between two states, the
molecules that are in one state or another are changing
according to kinetic parameters that are characteristic
for the complex. Even at 100% - lets say of a dimer - by
your definition, (100% cannot exist since its reached
asymptotically by any derivation about equilibriums)
molecules will fall to monomer and will reassemble to a
dimer rapidly.

To be honest I think that talking about t(eq) is largely
wrong in biophysical terms, since it does not exist.

A.


  That's what I meant.
 Maia

- Original Message -
*From:* Anastassis Perrakis mailto:a.perra...@nki.nl
*To:* chern mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca
*Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 11:45 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] monomeric coiled coil--updated


On 5 Jul 2010, at 19:30, chern wrote:


Thank you for reply.
   

[ccp4bb] advice for processing data from multiple small wedges

2010-08-11 Thread Tony Wu
  I am having problems processing data from multiple wedges of 5-20
degrees each. I am working with data from microcrystals collected at a
minibeam. I want to use the data for molecular replacement. I can usually
only collect about 10-15 frames before the crystal is obviously radiation
damaged. I need to scale and merge the data from multiple crystals. I
typically get poor diffraction, maybe to 4A. I have been able to process the
data with xds/xscale, but the final statistics are worse than I would
expect. For example, I can see fairly strong spots out to 4A, but xds might
say the data only goes to 5A. This might be accurate, but I would like to
also try the data with mosflm and scala. I can usually get mosflm to
autoindex if I give it 3+ frames, but the results are not as robust as with
xds. Usually the residual is poor,  0.3 mm. When I try scala (tried
multiple options) with just one wedge, it fails with too few reflections,
no observations, or negative scales.

 xds says the crystals are fairly isomorphous,  1%. Symmetry is low,
space group C2.

 Does anyone have some advice for processing this kind of data
successfully?


Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

2010-08-11 Thread Kushol Gupta
Hi Maia, this review and website might be a good place to start:

http://analyticalultracentrifugation.com/images/AUCinProteinScience.pdf 
http://analyticalultracentrifugation.com/default.htm

Kushol 

Kushol Gupta, Ph.D.
Research Associate
Van Duyne Laboratory - HHMI/Univ. of Pennsylvania School of Medicine
kgu...@mail.med.upenn.edu
215-573-7260 / 267-259-0082


Hi ccp4bb

Could you please send me some references with the sedimentation 
equilibrium calculations of Kd, monomer/dimer ratio etc.

Maia

Maia Cherney wrote:
 Thank you. Now I understand the difference. I thought there was 
 separation.

 Maia

 Xuewu Zhang wrote:
 Hi Maia,
 I have seen your post regarding this before and I just want to point 
 out that you may have confused AUC (analytical ultracentrifugation) 
 with gradient-based ultra-centrifugation methods for separating 
 macromolecules. AUC does not involve separation of different species 
 in the sample. There are two types of AUCs: sedimentation velocity 
 and sedimentation equilibrium. In sedimentation equilibrium 
 experiments, the system reaches the equilibrium at the end, and the 
 monomer/dimer ratio, Kd, etc parameters can be worked out by fitting 
 the data to a model globally. The shape of the molecule does not 
 matter. For starters:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracentrifuge

 Xuewu Zhang




 On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:37 AM, chern ch...@ualberta.ca 
 mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca wrote:

 Hi Anastassis,
  We are back to the same argument that AUC is not a good 
 method. As
 everyone knows, it's a dynamic equilibrium between monomers and
 dimers that exists before separation. Once you started separation
 in any method, the equilibrium is disturbed now in each separated
 band. That will cause re-equilibration and constant migration of
 newly formed dimers from the monomer band and newly formed
 monomers from the dimer band. The t(eq) is the re-equilibration
 time.  Your method of separation of monomers and dimers should be
 quick enough before any re-equilibration occurs (t(sep)t(eq)).
 Otherwise, you get a mess and smearing of bands. Also, most
 conventional methods depend on shape etc. I find SEC is most
 convenient.
  Maia
 
 - Original Message -
 *From:* Anastassis Perrakis mailto:a.perra...@nki.nl
 *To:* chern mailto:ch...@ualberta.ca
 *Sent:* Monday, July 05, 2010 2:38 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] monomeric coiled coil--updated


 On 5 Jul 2010, at 22:04, chern wrote:

 Hi, Anastassis
 If you had just a monomer at  the start time then t(eq)
 is the time to get to equilibrium with the dimer and vice
 versa.

 sorry to say but the definition of that time in a
 biophysical sense, is in my opinion equal to infinity and
 cannot be defined.
 I am being a bit pedantic here, but I am just saying that
 t(eq) cannot be defined, it can be approximated, and thus
 t(eq) is wrong to define.
 Why not talk about kD and kON and kOFF that have robust
 definitions based on kinetic properties and a physical
 meaning?

 When you separated the two bands (monomers and dimers) in
 AUC, and then the equilibrium is quickly established in
 each band again what's the point?  So, to be successful
 in this method, you need to have t(eq) much lower than
 the separation run. Ideally, if you could
 separate monomers and dimers instantly and freeze them in
 the separated state, then you can have good estimate of
 the both fractions. I think this is clear.

 But, I disagree and I think what you say is wrong. The
 equilibrium is dynamic. Why do you insist there is a point
 in 'separation'?
 The monomer changes to a dimer and vise versa in a
 continuous fashion. All you can say is that in a given
 concentration the equilibrium is shifted towards one or
 the other form. But its a dynamic one. Even at a
 concentration which is 50-50 between two states, the
 molecules that are in one state or another are changing
 according to kinetic parameters that are characteristic
 for the complex. Even at 100% - lets say of a dimer - by
 your definition, (100% cannot exist since its reached
 asymptotically by any derivation about equilibriums)
 molecules will fall to monomer and will reassemble to a
 dimer rapidly.

 To be honest I think that talking about t(eq) is largely
 wrong in biophysical terms, since it does not exist.

 A.

   That's what I meant.

Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

2010-08-11 Thread Michael Thompson
I agree completely with Anastassis that the equilibrium will be effected by 
changing the concentration of the sample during gel filtration, however I 
wanted to point out that the elution volumes of the two species are independent 
of their populations. I apologize if I was misleading.

Mike


- Original Message -
From: Anastassis Perrakis a.perra...@nki.nl
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:10:16 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] monomer-dimer

Dear all, 


If I may add that I find the statement 


First, remember that gel filtration elution volumes are independent of 
conditions like flow rate and protein concentration (unless there are 
nonspecific interactions at high concentration), but like I described before 
temp is a factor. 


a bit misleading. While concentration will not change where the monomer or the 
dimer appears in the elution volume, concentration will affect the 
monomer-dimer equilibrium during your gel-filtration run. 


Thus, I would say that concentration is a factor. If your dimer has a kD of 
~100uM, and you inject it at a concentration of ~100uM, after getting diluted 
during gel-filtration (about ten-fold) it will appear 90% as a monomer ... The 
results of any analytical technique to determine stoichiometry are 
concentration dependent, and concentration is actually the major variable that 
needs to be considered to define the oligomerization state (in AUC this can be 
done nicely). And do not forget that the in-vitro oligomerization state does 
not necessarily imply the same for in vivo, so please do make mutants to prove 
it before submitting the paper ... 


A. 



On Aug 10, 2010, at 1:38, Bostjan Kobe wrote: 



Dear Intekhab 

Let me just add to this that gel filtration is not an accurate method for 
determination of molecular mass, because the migration on the column depends 
on the shape of the protein. 

The following methods can be used to determine molecular mass irrespective 
of shape: 
- MALLS (multi-angle laser light scattering or static light sxattering) 
- sedimentation equilibrium on analytical ultracentrifuge (AUC) 
- native mass spectrometry 

For a short recent review on issues associated with determining oligomeric 
state from crystal structures, with older references and relevant 
bioinformatic tools cited in there, please see 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19021571 

Bostjan 


On 10/08/10 6:26 AM, Maia Cherney ch...@ualberta.ca wrote: 



To determine the oligomeric state of a protein (monomer or dimer in your 


case), it's useful to use the PISA server. You upload your pdb file from 


the crystal structure.The server calculates the areas of interfaces 


(buried area) and deltaG (change in Gibbs energy) upon oligomer 


dissociation. (E. Krissinel and K. Henrick (2007). /Inference of 


macromolecular assemblies from crystalline state/. J. Mol. Biol. *372*, 


774--797 . E. Krissinel and K. Henrick (2005). /Detection of Protein 


Assemblies in Crystals/. In: M.R. Berthold /et.al./ (Eds.): CompLife 


2005, LNBI 3695, pp. 163--174 http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/11560500_15. 


E. Krissinel (2009). /Crystal contacts as nature's docking solutions/. 


J. Comp. Chem., in press; published on-line 6 May 2009; DOI 


10.1002/jcc.21303} 


If the interface area (divided by 2 per one protomer) is greater than 


1000 A2 and delta G is more than 5kcal/mol (the higher the better), it's 


a dimer. However, don't forget that most dimers can dissociate into 


monomers upon dilution. There is a dynamic equilibrium between dimers 


(oligomers) and monomers that depends on their concentration and the Kdiss. 


Separating them in any method will disturb this equilibrium. If the 


re-equilibration time is greater than the separation time, you can see 


both monomers and dimers. You can even roughly calculate the 


dissociation constant: 





Kdiss=[monomer]2/[dimer] where brackets mean concentrations. To give you 


an estimate, at Kdiss=10(-3)M, you have roughly equal concentration of 


dimers and monomers at 10-3 M and only 10% dimers at 10-4 M. Sometimes, 


protein needs to dissociate easily for the biological function. 





Maia 





intekhab alam wrote: 




Hi everyone 




Sorry for some non specific query! 









i am working with a protein that shows a dimer in the crystal 




structure but when i tried to figure out that with standard molecular 




markers in gel filteration (superdex-200, 24ml column) it turned out 




to be a monnomer. Native gel analysis after incubating the protein at 




20 degree, 37 degree showed more dimer at 20 degree celcius as 




compared to 37. I tried similar strategy in gel filteration by 




incubating my protein at various temperature,where a lot of 




precipitation was observed at 37 degree celcius and after removing the 




precipitates i run the gel filteration that has 0.5 ml higher elution 




volume as compared to samples incubated at 20 

[ccp4bb] calculating solvent volume from molecular surfaces

2010-08-11 Thread Alastair Fyfe
Does anyone know of software that will segment a unit cell into volume 
internal/external to a calculated molecular surface ?

thanks!
Alastair Fyfe