Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Could be. Then again, today's main architectures are all decades old; > they get refined but not redone. > I'm not sure whether you consider the 64-bit ARM architecture to be one of "today's main

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Nov 3, 2017, at 11:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Emulation of another computer was important to two groups early on... > designers > that wanted to try new architecture and the result of evolution and > retirement of > hardware the need to run costly to

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 11/02/2017 08:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 29 Oct 2017, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept >> Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. > > Henry Ford is attributed with "car

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > via cctalk > Sent: 03 November 2017 00:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: Which Dec E

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 29/10/17, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Another fun KA10 fact: it used 'hardware subroutines' - i.e. a clock pulse > would get to a certain point, and get conditionally diverted through some > other circuitry, later to come back and continue where it left off. Whee! When I was taking a look

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 31, 2017, at 5:59 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > ...FYI rope core was basically many > transformers either with a wire > in for the bit or wire around for the not bit. The cores for rope > didn't change magnetic state like > coincident current cores of

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/30/2017 03:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The timing is carefully orchestrated, including of course provision > for cable delays. I'm reminded of a unit manager at CDC that I worked with for a time. His first job at CDC as a fresh EE out of UofMinn was to measure all the loops of cable on the

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/30/2017 12:43 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 27, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 2017-10-27 at 13:38 -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the >>>

CDC 6000 series transistors [was RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?]

From: Paul Koning Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 12:07 PM > True if you have a TTL machine. 6600 is discrete transistor, and the actual > transistor specs are nowhere to be found as far as I have been able to tell. > But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you have gate >

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/30/2017 04:18 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > 2. What a UTM does is simulate another machine using only a general-purpose > machine. In fact, the UTM is arguably the most general-purpose machine ever > described. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized > hardware

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

t: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? On Oct 29, 2017 09:54, "Dave Wade via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/30/2017 06:18 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: 2. What IBM defined as emulation was use of extremely specialized hardware and/or microcode (specifically, not the machine's general-purpose microcode used for natively programming the host machine). As far as I know, IBM's 360s did NOT have

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Oct 29, 2017 09:54, "Dave Wade via cctalk" wrote: I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing. Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Jon Elson wrote: > > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the > > KI-10 did. > > As far as I understand, the PDP-6 (type 166), KA10, and KI10 were > hardwired. KL10 and KS10 were microcoded. The Foonly F1 preceeded and > influenced the KL10

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/28/2017 09:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote: IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a computer to simulate a different computer. Maurice V. Wilkes wrote a paper in 1951 defining

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

.@comcast.net>; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > -Original Message- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> From: Jon Elson > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode No, it didn't; in part because it pre-dated fast, cheap ROMs (the development of which was a considerable task in the /360 project - the wonderful "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems" covers this is some

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

Jon Elson wrote: > I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the > KI-10 did. As far as I understand, the PDP-6 (type 166), KA10, and KI10 were hardwired. KL10 and KS10 were microcoded. The Foonly F1 preceeded and influenced the KL10 design.

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/29/2017 07:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote: IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a computer

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/28/2017 08:55 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote: On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components, so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them because

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning via cctalk > Sent: 29 October 2017 12:42 > To: Eric Smith <space...@gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > <cct...@classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

An old kerfuffle over terms. Speaking for myself, I use "emulate" when it involves human characteristics. "I seek to emulate Abraham Lincoln". "Simulate" is probably a better term to use for inanimate objects. I've never liked the e-word when used in connection with computers--but I'm a

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/28/2017 9:09 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in > 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode > on a computer to simulate a different computer. > > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC,

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech > wrote: > > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a > computer to simulate a different computer. That's

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a computer to simulate a different computer. Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not meet that definition, and is a

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote: > On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > > > With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components, > so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them > because that is not a NEW selling feature any more.

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 04:55 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Or Burroughs' core counters (think I still have some somewhere): > > https://www.google.com/patents/US3438014 > > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2995663.html We forget about all of the alternative ways of implementing digital logic. At

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

- Original Message - From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > On 10/27/2017 01:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrot

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: With respect to your #5, I have some direct experience with that, and am working on a tricky project to implement the IBM 1410 in a FPGA at the gate level, based on the SMS Automated Logic Diagrams (ALD's). What I have found so far is that a

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2017 22:06 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > On 10/27/2017

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 3:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > Kip, > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. > SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are both > programs that provide a "bare metal" machine via software on which an > operating

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/17 2:00 PM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > On the subject of NMOS dynamic logic, someone recently pointed out a > paragraph in the technical manual for a 1990s ARM2-based computer which > warned of dire consequences, including possibly destruction of the > chipset, if the circuitry

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 01:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> That doesn't sound even close. > > http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm > > > Ferractors. > Can't forget Parametrons: https://www.thocp.net/hardware/parametron.htm

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 1:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: True if you have a TTL machine. 6600 is discrete transistor, and the actual transistor specs are nowhere to be found as far as I have been able to tell. Well if you can find one loose, you could allways measure it. But that doesn't directly relate

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Fri, 2017-10-27 at 13:38 -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the > inherent dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the > dynamic operation requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not > really inherent to NMOS).

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 01:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Oh yes, and if you look at the wire lists (on Bitsavers) you will get the > length of every wire in the machine. The trouble is that, even if you use > the documented delay per foot, things don't necessarily match. The stated > logic stage delay

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/17 1:38 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > I wonder if they were just trying to draw an analogy between the inherent > dynamic operation requirements of magnetic logic and the dynamic operation > requirements of some (many?) NMOS designs (not really inherent to NMOS). this was a

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 2017-Oct-27, at 12:57 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 27, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >> On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the >>> Univac Solid

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/17 12:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > That doesn't sound even close. http://www.ussc90.nl/circ.htm Ferractors. While computers now are composed by many integrated circuits containing each millions of logical units, processing data with a speed of a few gigabits per second in a

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 27, 2017, at 3:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the >> Univac Solid State. > > I have been told the behavior of Univac

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/17 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've long had a fantasy about building a core-logic CPU such as the > Univac Solid State. I have been told the behavior of Univac magnetic logic was similar to NMOS which explains why there is an RF power amplifier for the clock driver in

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 12:06 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > But that doesn't directly relate to gate level emulation. If you > have gate level documentation you can of course build a copy of the > machine out of actual gate-type parts, like 7400 chips. Or you can > write a gate level model in VHDL,

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 27, 2017, at 2:55 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/27/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like >> RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a >>

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 2017-Oct-27, at 11:28 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS > flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly > clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600...

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/27/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: It helps to have a machine built with sane design principles. Things like RS flops that don't have both inputs active at the same time. And a properly clocked architecture. Neither of these properties holds for the CDC 6600...

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> From: Kip Koon > I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit confused. You and me both! I think part of the problem is that there is no generally-agreed-upon definition of the two terms. I like this one a lot, though:

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 2017-Oct-27, at 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > So it's a question of what you're after. If you want to run the software, or > teach the machine at the programmer level, SIMH or equivalent is quite > adequate. If you want to teach FPGA skills, an FPGA behavioral model > emulation

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 27, 2017, at 1:47 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > If I had the skill, data and time, I would always go for a gate level model. > However, I do most (sim/em)ulation in SIMH instead, like I have been doing > for MU5 where I lack the data and the time and probably

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

g> > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > > > On Oct 27, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > Kip, > > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 27, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > Kip, > I think "emulation" and "simulation" get used pretty much interchangeable. > SIMH is touted a simulator, Hercules/390 as an emulator yet they are both > programs that provide a "bare metal" machine

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

; To: 'Paul Koning' <paulkon...@comcast.net>; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > Hi Paul, > Thank you for the info. I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

-Original Message- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 4:29 PM To: Kip Koon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > On Oct 24, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Kip Koon

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 24, 2017, at 10:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > 2nd, a hardware emulator running a simulator written in 6809 assembly > language for the PDP-8/e running on a 6809 Core & I/O board system seems > like a good choice for me as I understand the 6809

RE: SDS 940 BASIC (was Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?)

From: Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 9:04 AM > On 10/25/17 11:55 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: >> Noel, do have a reference for "some commercial time-sharing system in the >> Boston area"? From Paul Allen's autobiography, the Harvard system was >> followed immediately by their

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On 10/24/17 7:40 PM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: > The choice so far it seems is the PDP-11/70. Remember I still have no idea > beyond some searching on the internet what boards and peripherals a > PDP-11/70 consists of. For that matter, I don't know what boards and > peripherals are in the

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> From: Kip Koon > I was initially thinking of a strictly software only solution Whatever you eventually do in the way of hardware, it might be a good idea to start with this. You can get familiar with whatever OS you decide to go with, and get used to its tools, get to know the

SDS 940 BASIC (was Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?)

On 10/25/17 11:55 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Noel, do have a reference for "some commercial time-sharing system in the > Boston area"? From Paul Allen's autobiography, the Harvard system was > followed > immediately by their move to Albuquerque, where they leased time on the local

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:20 AM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Related to DEC emulation: is there a visual Straight-8 simulator? I'd > like > > to practice working the

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 11:12 AM >> From: Kip Koon >> Back in the day when Bill Gates and company 1st started out ... a B/W photo >> of a young Bill Gates bending over the operator at what looked like a very >> small computer. Maybe it was just a terminal. I don't

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Related to DEC emulation: is there a visual Straight-8 simulator? I'd like > to practice working the front panel and such. > I don't think there is one. The PDP 8i is the closest thing but there are I

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

Hi Guys, I think I know so little of the PDP systems that I really didn't know how to correctly phrase the question in PDP speak in my 1st email so let me try. I was initially thinking of a strictly software only solution running on my Windows 7 x64 laptop only since the only hardware based

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> From: Kip Koon > f I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a > DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the > most software available for it? To echo what others have said, when you say 'emulator', do you mean hardware (the

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

g> > Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile? > > Kip, > It depends on what your interest is! Of course PDP stood for "Programmed > Data Processor" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_Data_Processor > > and avoids the use

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk wrote: Hi DEC Enthusiast's, If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most software available for it? I have only

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi DEC Enthusiast's, > > > > If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a > DEC > >

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

> On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:44 AM, Kip Koon via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi DEC Enthusiast's, > > If I were to have to decide on just one model DEC PDP system to run in a DEC > Emulator, which one would be the most useful, versatile and has the most > software available for it?

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

Kip, It depends on what your interest is! Of course PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_Data_Processor and avoids the use of the word computer because the backers of Digital did not want them building a Computer. I believed it also helped sales