Re: DEC Logo
On 29-06-15 14:56, Toby Thain wrote: On 2015-06-29 3:54 AM, simon wrote: the front of the internal bus options maintenance manual in front of me. But looking at the f in 8/f gives me the impression they mixed some fonts for the logo and taking a closer look at the line: digital equipment corporation . maynard. massachusetts is proving both of us wrong. the y in maynard is a rounded version, but both futura and avant garde hve a straight y. ...the search continues... Can you scan the page you're looking at? tada.wav: https://hack42.nl/mediawiki/images/a/a7/Dec_footer.png it is also used on the front of the pdp8/f here at our museum. simon -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Tue, 6/30/15, Vincent Slyngstad v.slyngs...@frontier.com wrote: I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) Do *not* post pictures. I'm still trying to forget seeing the ones from that other guy. Don't worry. I don't have any plans to cross breed it with myself. Besides I doubt VMS would run very well on a machine that shared any of my absent minded tendencies. BLS
Re: list consolidation
ditto but I never complained as I was grateful that it existed in the first place! Ed# In a message dated 6/30/2015 6:35:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, heal...@aracnet.com writes: On Jun 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Jay West jw...@classiccmp.org wrote: FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the two views of the same list configuration on the classiccmp server. And there was much rejoicing! Personally I've always hated the two list view. Zane
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
From: Brian L. Stuart: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 5:49 PM I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) Do *not* post pictures. I'm still trying to forget seeing the ones from that other guy. Vince
Bruker Aspect 2000 tapes
Hi All I have a number of tapes for the Bruker Aspect 2000. These are paper tapes. All looking for a good home. I'd like these to go to someone with one of these computers. It looks like it included the OS. These are paper tape, not mag tape. Free Plus shipping. Dwight
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I've been saying for some time that I think VAXen breed in the corners - I don't quite know where all of these VAXstations came from. (I still want a VLC, though - just saying.) -- Ian On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Ethan Dicks ethan.di...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote: If you have some storage, then you can lose a microcomputer. Oh, yeah. If you lose a minicomputer, then you have a lot of storage. I recently found an 11/730 I thought I had to get rid of in 1994... (turns out I got rid of a spare we bought to harvest parts from. I kept the working one. Now to refurb the TU58) If you lose a mainframe, then you have ENOUGH storage. Hasn't happened yet. -ethan -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
they are known to multiply on their own... Clearly someone who has one (or better more) 780s (or 730s) needs to start breeding them for the rest of us. I guess to be fair I should offer that if anyone wants a 3600 and they can reproduce asexually, I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) BLS
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
If you have some storage, then you can lose a microcomputer. If you lose a minicomputer, then you have a lot of storage. If you lose a mainframe, then you have ENOUGH storage.
Re: list consolidation
On Jun 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Jay West jw...@classiccmp.org wrote: FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the two views of the same list configuration on the classiccmp server. And there was much rejoicing! Personally I've always hated the two list view. Zane
Re: Bruker Aspect 2000 tapes
On 2015-Jun-30, at 5:22 PM, dwight wrote: Hi All I have a number of tapes for the Bruker Aspect 2000. These are paper tapes. All looking for a good home. I'd like these to go to someone with one of these computers. It looks like it included the OS. These are paper tape, not mag tape. Free Plus shipping. Is that the CPU that went with their NMR systems from the 70s? A few years ago I examined the RF exciter portion of a Bruker NMR that had been dismantled and sold off as surplus. Wish I knew what happened to the CPU/processing portion, but it had already been separated by the time I was involved. Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). Not likely these days as they were produced in relatively scant numbers.
RE: Bruker Aspect 2000 tapes
From: hilp...@cs.ubc.ca On 2015-Jun-30, at 5:22 PM, dwight wrote: Hi All I have a number of tapes for the Bruker Aspect 2000. These are paper tapes. All looking for a good home. I'd like these to go to someone with one of these computers. It looks like it included the OS. These are paper tape, not mag tape. Free Plus shipping. Is that the CPU that went with their NMR systems from the 70s? A few years ago I examined the RF exciter portion of a Bruker NMR that had been dismantled and sold off as surplus. Wish I knew what happened to the CPU/processing portion, but it had already been separated by the time I was involved. Something I could wish to find/stumble-across would be one of the out-of-the-mainstream minis from the 60s/70s - something not DEC, not HP, not IBM, not DG (although a little Nova would be nice). Not likely these days as they were produced in relatively scant numbers. I Believe these were made in the middle to late 70's. I understand they were24 bit. They were probably TTL.Bruker used Nicolet computers until they build their own. They made both the 2000and the 3000. That is about all I know about them.They were designed in Germany.Dwight
Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS
I'm happy to announce a new release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. Since I'm broadening the scope of the announcement slightly, a more complete list of features is included, and not just what changed since last. For anyone who is currently running TCP/IP for RSX, I strongly encourage you to update to this latest version. Several improvements have gone in in the last couple of weeks. Most important change is that there now is telnet support, both client and server side. The TCP/IP for RSX that I've written is sometimes referred to as BQTCP/IP, just to make clear that it is a different product than Process Software's TCPWARE, or JSA's TCP/IP. BQTCP/IP is a rather feature rich TCP/IP implementation, which also comes with libraries for various high level languages. The API is not compatible, even at the source level, with Unix, but on the other hand, if people write some code, they will see that it is a very easy API to work with. The reasons for the incompatibilities are several, including both resource concerns and differences between how RSX works and Unix like operating systems. BQTCP/IP has tried to comply with all relevant RFCs, but I'm sure there are corners where it does not do things right. It also does not demand much resources. It do require RSX-11M-PLUS with split I/D space, and it has only been tested properly on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6. It should work on any version 4 release of RSX-11M-PLUS, but there might be a couple of tweaks or fixes needed. BQTCP/IP is distributed in binary form, so very little compilation is required to get it up and running. However, pretty much all utilities do come with sources. The actual TCP/IP stack sources are not included. I do not have a good setup for distributing them in a sane way, and it has had a low priority on my list of things to do. But I do not mind distributing the sources as a general principle. All that said, BQTCP/IP current supports the following protocols: o Ethernet and loopback interfaces. o ARP. BQTCP/IP can use Ethernet in co-existance with DECnet, or standalone using the provided Unibus ethernet device driver. o IP. The largest IP packets supported are approximately 8KB. o ICMP. o UDP. The largest UDP packets supported are approximately 8KB. o TCP. The window is approximately 8KB in size, and TCP do manage out of order packets in an efficient way. BQTCP/IP supports the following applications: o DHCP. DHCP can be used to configure interface addresses, network masks, default gateways, DNS servers and NTP servers dynamically. o NTP. NTP can be used to set the local time. o TELNET. The TELNET server hooks in to the standard TT: terminal driver, and the number of terminals to create is configurable. The TELNET client can be used to connect to other systems. o FTP. The FTP server can serve all kind of files to other RSX systems, and can serve text and binary files to any system. The FTP client can retrieve RSX format files from RSX servers, and text, binary and block format files from any system. o TFTP. The TFTP server and client can be used for simpler file transfer operations. o RWHOD. RWHOD is a program that reports current users and uptime from RSX, for other systems to collect. o IRC. IRC is a program to communicate with other users around the world. o IRCBOT. IRCBOT is a small example robot program connecting to IRC and performing a service for IRC users. o PCL. PCL is a protocol for printing, used by HP (and other) printers over a network. The PCL implementation in BQTCP/IP appears as a print symbiont, which you can create a printer queue for. o WWW. WWW (or World Wide Web) is a service that can present hypertext information to clients. The WWW server in BQTCP/IP also supports CGI, which makes it possible to create dynamic content. o DNS. BQTCP/IP have DNS implemented as an ACP, that anyone can query to get translations between IP addresses and domain names. It also supports different users using different name servers, or private translations. o SINK. A standard TCP service. o ECHO. A standard TCP service. o DAYTIME. A standard TCP service. o QUOTD. A standard TCP service. o IDENTD. A standard TCP service. BQTCP/IP also have automatic IP spoof detection and prevention. Additional tools are IFCONFIG, PING, TRACEROUTE, NETSTAT as well as two new pages for RMD. High level language libraries exists for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C and FORTRAN-77. I'm sure I have forgotten a thing or three, but that's a fairly comprehensive list. The documentation is a weak point, but there is hopefully enough documentation to get people running, and I am happy to answer any questions, or give support if needed. BQTCP/IP is already running on the internet, and have been for a while. People who are curious to check it out can ether look at http://madame.update.uu.se/, or telnet to telnet://madame.update.uu.se and login as user GUEST with password GUEST, or use ftp against
Re: DEC Logo
On 2015-06-30 4:44 AM, simon wrote: On 29-06-15 14:56, Toby Thain wrote: On 2015-06-29 3:54 AM, simon wrote: the front of the internal bus options maintenance manual in front of me. But looking at the f in 8/f gives me the impression they mixed some fonts for the logo and taking a closer look at the line: digital equipment corporation . maynard. massachusetts is proving both of us wrong. the y in maynard is a rounded version, but both futura and avant garde hve a straight y. ...the search continues... Can you scan the page you're looking at? tada.wav: https://hack42.nl/mediawiki/images/a/a7/Dec_footer.png it is also used on the front of the pdp8/f here at our museum. Right. This isn't Futura or Avant Garde. It's the font Paul K. and I have been discussing - similar to Chalet but possibly a custom font. --Toby simon
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On 06/30/2015 08:48 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: I would appreciate some advice on both the software and the hardware life expectancy of a PC Windows System. While the hardware / software of the second and third system are almost 10 years old, I don't consider them, let alone the first system, topics for this list. But since my goal is to support running legacy software, especially including the RT-11 operating system for the PDP-11 computer, I request your indulgence. At present, I have three systems that I am running: (a) A 12 year old system that I am very pleased with that runs 32-bit Windows 98SE. I really only use it for e-mail under Netscape 7.2 and to run the DOS variant of Erstaz-11 in FULL SCREEN mode. It consists of a 0.75 GHz Pentium III with 768 MB of memory and 3 * 131 GB ATA 100 hard drives. The power supply has been replaced, but is still inadequate, so a separate PC power supply is used to run the hard drives which were also replaced about 5 years ago - the original hard drives were only 40 GB each. Note that while this system is a bit slow as compared to the next two systems (which are about 4 times faster), it really does everything I need to do. PLUS, the backups are a breeze since I use Ghost 7.0 to back up the C: hard drive in about 5 minutes every other day producing a single image file of about 1 GB. (b) A 7 year old system that my wife uses which runs 32-bit WinXP with 4 GB of memory and 2 * 500 GB SATA hard drives. The CPU is a 2.67 GHz E8400 with 2 cores and 6 MB of L2 cache, so it still runs reasonably well. My wife uses it for e-mail, watching youtube videos and google searches. The system has probably been used about 16 hours every day and turned off every night. The battery probably needs to be replaced since the boot each day needs to reset the date / time when the boot hangs at the very start, but otherwise the hardware seems OK. The software is very out of date and needs to be replaced. Note that if 7 years is not a really long time for a WinXP system (specifically the motherboard, video card and power supply) which has been used for between 20,000 and 30,000 hours, then I could upgrade this system to 64-bit Win7, double the memory to 8 GB and, if appropriate, also replace the disk drives and the power supply. The mother board, video card (which supports two monitors) and CPU would be retained. System (c) has the identical motherboard as system (b) and was considered a replacement. (c) A 7 year old system which runs 32-bit WinXP with 4 GB of memory and 3 * 1 TB SATA hard drives. The CPU is a 2.83 GHz Q9550 with 4 cores and 12 MB of L2 cache, so it runs reasonably well. The system was never used very much, probably a total of 200 to 500 hours and sat in its box for the past 4 or 5 years until I have finally been persuaded to upgrade to 64-bit Win7 and double the total RAM to 8 GB, the maximum the mother board supports. I just turned on the system yesterday and it runs correctly. My assumption at the moment is to upgrade to 64-bit Win7 and replace my wife's system. One aspect that puzzles me is that the video card, the same video card as in system (b), no longer supports two monitors (which it did and was correctly tested with 5 years ago). My first question is if a 7 years old system such a (c) would be likely to have any serious hardware problems after sitting idle for 4 to 5 years. I can't see that any current I7 CPU from Intel is likely to be much better, so why buy another system? The hardware has been used sufficiently, so infant mortality should finished. But, would a new I7 system be a sufficient improvement to justify spending the money? So I intend to replace (b) hardware and software with (c) hardware plus 4 GB of memory (for a total of 8 GB of memory) and switch to 64-bit Win7. Is this a good plan? Or is it likely that the motherboard and video card in system (b) is still sufficiently reliable after 7 years to upgrade system (b) to 64-bit Win7 and use system (c) for something else? My second question is just how thin is the ice that I am skating on for system (a)? If the answer is VERY, then I have one alternative to buying a new I7 system which would be used to run 64-bit Win7. On the other hand, if the motherboard in system (b) is not too old at 7 years and 30,000 hours, then system (c) would still be available. A lot of choices and things to consider. Jerome Fine I don't think this qualifies as answers persay, but more just data points really... I have successfully installed run Win7 x86 x64 on Dell Latitude D620, D630, D820 D830. Not sure on the age, but they gotta be getting on to around 7 years. The
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On 6/30/2015 5:48 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: At present, I have three systems that I am running: Dave had some excellent advice. However i had a friend who is a database developer (mentioned because he's not really interested in fooling with his OS, etc.) that wanted to upgrade an older system, such as the 10 year old one. XP, lots of MS and other development environment stuff accumulated. I suggested and he did an upgrade to the best system he could find which was Core I7, etc. lots of memory, nice display, and hopefully quality hardware. He used VMware converter to migrate his system to the new hardware, with all his stuff there intact. He was able to put the main tools he wanted on thru MS sources, as he had MSDN. he still has his other system running intact on the new system with vmware player. Shared drives and it running in the background makes it about 90% like he still has all his old stuff w/o major fuss of the upgrade. After a bit of fiddling got rid of the Win8 annoyances to a dull roar. I run all my systems on a Dell 2950 server. All of the systems will migrate with microsoft keys between dell hardware. The above scenario is a key thing to consider. I don't know about license migration to get the Converted systems reactivated. That is a complicated issue, but no insurmountable. I also had my accountant using the same scenario, and he migrated a large amount of Tax Prep hardware across with only a license re-activation session involved. He ran his old system however, not the new one. The use of virtual desktops is my mode of operation now. Main access system is a Mac retina display equipped macbook. With 4K displays now showing up, the resolution is pretty much unlimited as far as the remote desktops are concerned. thanks Jim
Spacewar paper has been published!
It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the Spacewar paper I wrote with research from Martin Goldberg and responses from many people on this list has finally been published. The paper, Space Odyssey: The Long Journey of Spacewar from MIT to Computer Labs Around the World is available for free on Kinephanos, a bilingual Canadian journal about film, games, and new media. The paper explores the use and distribution of Spacewar after its creation at MIT and provides a detailed look at several computer labs, including those at Harvard, University of Minnesota, University of Michigan, and of course MIT and Stanford. http://www.kinephanos.ca/2015/space-odyssey-the-long-journey-of-spacewar-from-mit-to-computer-labs-around-the-world/ The paper was presented last year at the International History of Games Symposium in Montreal. The slides are available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22gYL7qHwW9dWMwQkNiWFlCMDA/view?usp=sharing Thank you to everyone who participated in the survey and provided help for our research. Martin and I would appreciate any feedback you have on the paper, including anything we might have missed or gotten in error and any new insights or memories you wish to share. Note we are still interested in collecting data through our survey, which anyone here is welcome to participate in. http://ataribook.com/book/spacewar-questionnaire/ Enjoy! -Devin Monnens -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
Re: Spacewar paper has been published!
Devin Monnens wrote: It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the Spacewar paper I wrote with research from Martin Goldberg and responses from many people on this list has finally been published. The paper, Space Odyssey: The Long Journey of Spacewar from MIT to Computer Labs Around the World is available for free on Kinephanos, a bilingual Canadian journal about film, games, and new media. The paper explores the use and distribution of Spacewar after its creation at MIT and provides a detailed look at several computer labs, including those at Harvard, University of Minnesota, University of Michigan, and of course MIT and Stanford. http://www.kinephanos.ca/2015/space-odyssey-the-long-journey-of-spacewar-from-mit-to-computer-labs-around-the-world/ The paper was presented last year at the International History of Games Symposium in Montreal. The slides are available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22gYL7qHwW9dWMwQkNiWFlCMDA/view?usp=sharing Thank you to everyone who participated in the survey and provided help for our research. Martin and I would appreciate any feedback you have on the paper, including anything we might have missed or gotten in error and any new insights or memories you wish to share. Note we are still interested in collecting data through our survey, which anyone here is welcome to participate in. http://ataribook.com/book/spacewar-questionnaire/ Enjoy! -Devin Monnens Check
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
From: Jerome H. Fine just how thin is the ice that I am skating on for system (a)? ... if the motherboard in system (b) is not too old at 7 years and 30,000 hours One data point for you: I have a whole flock of old HP desktops (actually, minitowers) from the late 90's (not sure of the exact date, but I _think_ they were released before Windows 98 came out) which I'm still running. (They've been upgraded with the PowerLeap iP3/T CPU insert with 1.4MHz Celerons, and Promise IDE controllers to run faster disks.) Although I laid in spare motherboards, CPU chips, etc so far the only problems I've had are that one of the iP3/T's died, and a mouse port died (easy to work around, using a USB mouse). Of course, these are HP machines, and relatively well engineered, so I can't extrapolate to other brands, but... Noel
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
Finding this ironic thread considering we here keep machines waay past their freshness date going. Work with whatever and be prepared to migrate to another machine as needed. I never set in stone this is my xzy machine forever... see my point? Use whatever is the least hassle now, and will be the least hassle when it's time to move to another machine. In short I think your backup and recovery strategy is more important than the machine, when running old hardware that is not CPU nor RAM dependent. On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote: On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: I don't think this qualifies as answers persay, but more just data points really... I have successfully installed run Win7 x86 x64 on Dell Latitude D620, D630, D820 D830. Not sure on the age, but they gotta be getting on to around 7 years. The RAM they have varies between 2GB 4GB. I have also installed Win8 x64 on a Latitude D830, then proceeded to swap that drive into a D620. Yesterday, I just upgraded a D820 from WIn7x64 to Win10 x64 preview; 3GB RAM, we'll see how that goes... In other words, you should not be using WinXP anymore unless you have an app that just won't work with Win7. Why not??!? Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? The fact that you CAN upgrade, doesn't seem to imply that you SHOULD. In that case, ditch the program or run in a VM. Why? If the hardware is becoming too unreliable, . . . If you need some sort of unavailable support, . . . Otherwise, WHY change?
R: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
The problem with sitting idle for long time is the same as with old systems : caps can get dry and destabilize, leading to invisible or visible issues. The videocard missing the 2nd output can be just that, but it's easy for you to check (by swapping the B videocard and making sure that it's an hw issue vs a software one). This said, we could discuss about the quality of the hw... would a new i7 have quality components, or just so so ones ? I suppose it depends on the maker/product line/etc, but you could end with something that would not even reach 7y. If considering an upgrade, why not looking for a good bargain for a xeon 54x0 / 56x0 system, that would be subject to a good level of quality parts ? (or a bit newer, too, obviously) (anyway first I would wait for the Q9550 to die) -Messaggio originale- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Jerome H. Fine Inviato: martedì 30 giugno 2015 14:49 A: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System I would appreciate some advice on both the software and the hardware life expectancy of a PC Windows System. While the hardware / software of the second and third system are almost 10 years old, I don't consider them, let alone the first system, topics for this list. But since my goal is to support running legacy software, especially including the RT-11 operating system for the PDP-11 computer, I request your indulgence. At present, I have three systems that I am running: (a) A 12 year old system that I am very pleased with that runs 32-bit Windows 98SE. I really only use it for e-mail under Netscape 7.2 and to run the DOS variant of Erstaz-11 in FULL SCREEN mode. It consists of a 0.75 GHz Pentium III with 768 MB of memory and 3 * 131 GB ATA 100 hard drives. The power supply has been replaced, but is still inadequate, so a separate PC power supply is used to run the hard drives which were also replaced about 5 years ago - the original hard drives were only 40 GB each. Note that while this system is a bit slow as compared to the next two systems (which are about 4 times faster), it really does everything I need to do. PLUS, the backups are a breeze since I use Ghost 7.0 to back up the C: hard drive in about 5 minutes every other day producing a single image file of about 1 GB. (b) A 7 year old system that my wife uses which runs 32-bit WinXP with 4 GB of memory and 2 * 500 GB SATA hard drives. The CPU is a 2.67 GHz E8400 with 2 cores and 6 MB of L2 cache, so it still runs reasonably well. My wife uses it for e-mail, watching youtube videos and google searches. The system has probably been used about 16 hours every day and turned off every night. The battery probably needs to be replaced since the boot each day needs to reset the date / time when the boot hangs at the very start, but otherwise the hardware seems OK. The software is very out of date and needs to be replaced. Note that if 7 years is not a really long time for a WinXP system (specifically the motherboard, video card and power supply) which has been used for between 20,000 and 30,000 hours, then I could upgrade this system to 64-bit Win7, double the memory to 8 GB and, if appropriate, also replace the disk drives and the power supply. The mother board, video card (which supports two monitors) and CPU would be retained. System (c) has the identical motherboard as system (b) and was considered a replacement. (c) A 7 year old system which runs 32-bit WinXP with 4 GB of memory and 3 * 1 TB SATA hard drives. The CPU is a 2.83 GHz Q9550 with 4 cores and 12 MB of L2 cache, so it runs reasonably well. The system was never used very much, probably a total of 200 to 500 hours and sat in its box for the past 4 or 5 years until I have finally been persuaded to upgrade to 64-bit Win7 and double the total RAM to 8 GB, the maximum the mother board supports. I just turned on the system yesterday and it runs correctly. My assumption at the moment is to upgrade to 64-bit Win7 and replace my wife's system. One aspect that puzzles me is that the video card, the same video card as in system (b), no longer supports two monitors (which it did and was correctly tested with 5 years ago). My first question is if a 7 years old system such a (c) would be likely to have any serious hardware problems after sitting idle for 4 to 5 years. I can't see that any current I7 CPU from Intel is likely to be much better, so why buy another system? The hardware has been used sufficiently, so infant mortality should finished. But, would a new I7 system be a sufficient improvement
Re: Spacewar paper has been published!
On 6/30/2015 5:14 AM, Devin Monnens wrote: Martin and I would appreciate any feedback you have on the paper, including anything we might have missed or gotten in error and any new insights or memories you wish to share. Note we are still interested in collecting data through our survey, which anyone here is welcome to participate in. http://ataribook.com/book/spacewar-questionnaire/ Enjoy! -Devin Monnens On page 24 of the slides, the computer should be an IBM 1130 not 1160. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On 06/30/2015 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: I don't think this qualifies as answers persay, but more just data points really... I have successfully installed run Win7 x86 x64 on Dell Latitude D620, D630, D820 D830. Not sure on the age, but they gotta be getting on to around 7 years. The RAM they have varies between 2GB 4GB. I have also installed Win8 x64 on a Latitude D830, then proceeded to swap that drive into a D620. Yesterday, I just upgraded a D820 from WIn7x64 to Win10 x64 preview; 3GB RAM, we'll see how that goes... In other words, you should not be using WinXP anymore unless you have an app that just won't work with Win7. Why not??!? Fair question, easy answer. Security. Unless it's air-gapped, I wouldn't put anything sensitive on WinXP. Every month, we are finding out just how much WinXP is like swiss cheese. Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? Personally, I find Win7 runs about a fast as WinXP. Throw in compatibility with newer stuff (comes in handy when taking a break from the classics to deal with items from this decade, er, century The fact that you CAN upgrade, doesn't seem to imply that you SHOULD. Agreed. But RAM HDD upgrades will improve performance. In that case, ditch the program or run in a VM. Why? I'd run only that one application in the WinXP VM. Everything else I would do in the Win7/Linux/Unix/Mac host which is likely to be much more secure. And you get better portability. If the hardware is becoming too unreliable, . . . If you need some sort of unavailable support, . . . Otherwise, WHY change? It's subjective, personal opinion, really when it comes down to it. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet.
RE: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
-Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 30 June 2015 16:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: I don't think this qualifies as answers persay, but more just data points really... I have successfully installed run Win7 x86 x64 on Dell Latitude D620, D630, D820 D830. Not sure on the age, but they gotta be getting on to around 7 years. The RAM they have varies between 2GB 4GB. I have also installed Win8 x64 on a Latitude D830, then proceeded to swap that drive into a D620. Yesterday, I just upgraded a D820 from WIn7x64 to Win10 x64 preview; 3GB RAM, we'll see how that goes... In other words, you should not be using WinXP anymore unless you have an app that just won't work with Win7. Why not??!? Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? Because the base OS and Applications no longer supports current internet standards ? The fact that you CAN upgrade, doesn't seem to imply that you SHOULD. In that case, ditch the program or run in a VM. Why? If the hardware is becoming too unreliable, . . . If you need some sort of unavailable support, . . . Otherwise, WHY change?
RE: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
Why not??!? Fair question, easy answer. Security. Unless it's air-gapped, I wouldn't put anything sensitive on WinXP. Every month, we are finding out just how much WinXP is like swiss cheese. Well there are other reasons. You buy a new printer and you find it only works on Windows/7 onwards. Microsoft does things to persuade you to upgrade... Lets take the latest Skype upgrade. Microsoft have blocked folks from using older versions of Skype, but the latest version has an un-documented requirement for the .NETv4 framework. So if you upgrade skype without it Skype fails to start missing dxva2.dll.. No the paranoid among you will say this is Microsoft trying to get you to upgrade to Windows/7... .. the seasoned developers will say I wonder if Microsoft has stopped testing on XP On the other hand you do find yourself jettisoning apps which do work, often ones supplied with Windows such as Hyperterm Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? Personally, I find Win7 runs about a fast as WinXP. Throw in compatibility with newer stuff (comes in handy when taking a break from the classics to deal with items from this decade, er, century The fact that you CAN upgrade, doesn't seem to imply that you SHOULD. Agreed. But RAM HDD upgrades will improve performance. In that case, ditch the program or run in a VM. Why? I'd run only that one application in the WinXP VM. Everything else I would do in the Win7/Linux/Unix/Mac host which is likely to be much more secure. And you get better portability. If the hardware is becoming too unreliable, . . . If you need some sort of unavailable support, . . . Otherwise, WHY change? It's subjective, personal opinion, really when it comes down to it. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet.
RE: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
Why not??!? Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? (Windows XP) On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: Because the base OS and Applications no longer supports current internet standards ? Oh, OK. I didn't realize that this machine wasn't connecting to the internet. What current internet standards am I missing out on?
Re: list consolidation
As the youngers says, You got my like! 2015-06-30 15:35 GMT-03:00 Jay West jw...@classiccmp.org: FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the two views of the same list configuration on the classiccmp server. It has always created a rather large administrative burden, but also lately just has not been working right (problems subscribing, duplicate emails, a continuous stream of bounces, etc.). The list would go back to the way it used to be - one list, one view, at classic...@classiccmp.org. The primary reason for the two view paradigm was due to (at the time) some very substantial off-topicness, flamewars, etc. For a period of time I was not regularly reading the list and thus missed those things when they were occurring. For the past year or so (and it will very likely continue that way) I have been back to regularly watching/reading the list - so on my part I will do a better job monitoring the list for outbreaks, and will email the involved parties off-list whenever (if) it starts to occur. In addition, many of the most vocal flamers are no longer here. Separately, those who are more irked by off-topicness I would ask to get slightly more familiar with the DEL key J Best, J
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
Why not??!? On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Fair question, easy answer. Security. Unless it's air-gapped, I wouldn't put anything sensitive on WinXP. Every month, we are finding out just how much WinXP is like swiss cheese. THAT is a good answer/reason! Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? Personally, I find Win7 runs about a fast as WinXP. Throw in compatibility with newer stuff (comes in handy when taking a break from the classics to deal with items from this decade, er, century Not finding much new/interesting/worthwhile in the new millenium Otherwise, WHY change? It's subjective, personal opinion, really when it comes down to it. Another good answer
RE: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: .. its really great fun Only OS/2 is a little truculent Have you tried Parallels for hosting OS/2? It was developed originally for the Russian banking system to get their OS/2 based legacy software on to modern hardware. OS/2 worked flawlessly for me when I tried it several years back. YMMV with newer releases. --
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:23 , Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! This reminds me of when I was exploring a surplus yard, and found a *fire truck* buried in a pile. Walked right by it a few times before I noticed it. I also lusted after an 11/780 as my first VAX, but compromised on a much smaller and slower, but much more practical 11/730 system when one happened to turn up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
list consolidation
FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the two views of the same list configuration on the classiccmp server. It has always created a rather large administrative burden, but also lately just has not been working right (problems subscribing, duplicate emails, a continuous stream of bounces, etc.). The list would go back to the way it used to be - one list, one view, at classic...@classiccmp.org. The primary reason for the two view paradigm was due to (at the time) some very substantial off-topicness, flamewars, etc. For a period of time I was not regularly reading the list and thus missed those things when they were occurring. For the past year or so (and it will very likely continue that way) I have been back to regularly watching/reading the list - so on my part I will do a better job monitoring the list for outbreaks, and will email the involved parties off-list whenever (if) it starts to occur. In addition, many of the most vocal flamers are no longer here. Separately, those who are more irked by off-topicness I would ask to get slightly more familiar with the DEL key J Best, J
Re: equipment available
too many drugs... On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Jay West jw...@classiccmp.org wrote: Paul wrote... - Sorry, that should have been off list. - Yep, and that's why you missed the deal ;) Someone responded privately right away, the equipment has been claimed. J
Logos and typefaces and fonts (oh, my!) [was: RE: DEC Logo]
From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:43 AM From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain Sent: 30 June 2015 14:10 On 2015-06-30 4:44 AM, simon wrote: On 29-06-15 14:56, Toby Thain wrote: On 2015-06-29 3:54 AM, simon wrote: the front of the internal bus options maintenance manual in front of me. But looking at the f in 8/f gives me the impression they mixed some fonts for the logo and taking a closer look at the line: digital equipment corporation . maynard. massachusetts is proving both of us wrong. the y in maynard is a rounded version, but both futura and avant garde hve a straight y. ...the search continues... Can you scan the page you're looking at? tada.wav: https://hack42.nl/mediawiki/images/a/a7/Dec_footer.png it is also used on the front of the pdp8/f here at our museum. If it’s the oldest logo why do Straight Eights have a serifed font... http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/images-3C8F62C8/R3378-hp.jpg http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-1/DEC.pdp_1.1960.102652405.pdf This early brochure for the PDP-1 features the vertical d e c logo in a picture, as well as a serif face for titles and *on the machine*. Our PDP-7 likewise has a serif face for Digital Equipment Corporation on its name plate, with an outline block sans-serif PDP-7. A brief survey of the manuals for the 18-bit systems on Bitsavers shows that the change from a serif face for titles occurred during the development of the PDP-7 documentation: The preliminary edition of the User Handbook has the system name in a block serif typeface, while the release edition has the name in a block sans-serif. The PDP-6 (36-bit system) also uses the serif face; the PDP-8 is schizophrenic, and the PDP-9 et seq. use sans-serif. Note that I use the terms (type)face and logo, not font. Until Apple bastardized the term, a _font_ was a package of metal type in a particular _typeface_, and was the unit by which type was ordered from a foundry. A _logo_ was a special item, cast as a single unit for printing, not a collection of individual pieces of type. Someone in this thread mentioned having been in the graphics design trade, and can certainly back me up on this, as well as on the fact that advertising houses and departments generally designed their own lettering for lithographic reproduction rather than using commercially available typefaces; the latter were used for printed materials consisting of large stretches of text rather than one-offs. (A company might adopt a face, or commission one, as part of the house identity, in which case the lettering done by the graphics people would probably resemble the face, but it's unlikely that it would be cast at the large sizes needed for advertising, since each size requires a set of steel punches to be engraved and a set of matrices to be produced.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
Re: Request for web development (ccmp)
What specific tools/software/languages would be required to fill the role? Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcoo...@yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com - Original Message - From: Jay West jw...@classiccmp.org To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:41 PM Subject: Request for web development (ccmp) I have a rather long list of enhancements to the classiccmp website that I'd like to make, and IANAWD (I am not a web developer). In the past I have always had one of the staff web developers here make minor changes around the edges, but my list of enhancements is now bigger than that. Are there any experienced web developers on the list that have some free time (*chuckle*) and would like to contribute some time to the hobby? I'd rather a fellow hobbyist work on this as a labor of love than one of my web developers who really doesn't get it. I may be able to put together a few clams to help entice. If there's any interest, please contact me off-list. Best, J
R: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
Parallels for windows is no more since years, now there's only the mac version :( -Messaggio originale- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Steven Hirsch Inviato: martedì 30 giugno 2015 20:37 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: RE: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: .. its really great fun Only OS/2 is a little truculent Have you tried Parallels for hosting OS/2? It was developed originally for the Russian banking system to get their OS/2 based legacy software on to modern hardware. OS/2 worked flawlessly for me when I tried it several years back. YMMV with newer releases. --
Re: list consolidation
On 06/30/2015 02:35 PM, Jay West wrote: FYI - in the fairly near term, I plan to get rid of the two views of the same list configuration on the classiccmp server. It has always created a rather large administrative burden, but also lately just has not been working right (problems subscribing, duplicate emails, a continuous stream of bounces, etc.). The list would go back to the way it used to be - one list, one view, at classic...@classiccmp.org. The primary reason for the two view paradigm was due to (at the time) some very substantial off-topicness, flamewars, etc. For a period of time I was not regularly reading the list and thus missed those things when they were occurring. For the past year or so (and it will very likely continue that way) I have been back to regularly watching/reading the list - so on my part I will do a better job monitoring the list for outbreaks, and will email the involved parties off-list whenever (if) it starts to occur. In addition, many of the most vocal flamers are no longer here. Separately, those who are more irked by off-topicness I would ask to get slightly more familiar with the DEL key J Best, J Jay, thanks for all work work maintaining the list; and I understand agree with this decision. Rock On! -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet.
RE: equipment available
Paul wrote... - Sorry, that should have been off list. - Yep, and that's why you missed the deal ;) Someone responded privately right away, the equipment has been claimed. J
RE: Request for web development (ccmp)
Andrew wrote... What specific tools/software/languages would be required to fill the role? Standard FAMP stack (where F = freebsd)
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On 06/30/2015 02:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Why not??!? On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: Fair question, easy answer. Security. Unless it's air-gapped, I wouldn't put anything sensitive on WinXP. Every month, we are finding out just how much WinXP is like swiss cheese. THAT is a good answer/reason! Thanks! Worked hard on that one... ;) Why do the experts advocate not using something that had been working? Personally, I find Win7 runs about a fast as WinXP. Throw in compatibility with newer stuff (comes in handy when taking a break from the classics to deal with items from this decade, er, century Not finding much new/interesting/worthwhile in the new millenium Can't really argue that... Otherwise, WHY change? It's subjective, personal opinion, really when it comes down to it. Another good answer -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 Computers have lots of memory but no imagination. The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. - from some guy on the internet.
Re: Spacewar paper has been published!
On page 24 of the slides, the computer should be an IBM 1130 not 1160. Bob Ah! Thanks for pointing that out, Bob. The slides aren't used anymore outside of the presentation, but I will fix that. (I think there's one or two other errors in those slides...check the Spacewar demonstration photo!)
Re: R: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: Parallels for windows is no more since years, now there's only the mac version :( And I was referring to the 32-bit Linux version, so certainly dated information :-). --
Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System
I have Win3.1, Win98, and XP systems in separate boxes to support my classic computer interests. The latest is my Tek TDS320 oscilloscope, which I wanted to get a screen grab or actual data from. TEK had a piece of code Docuwave I think, which is 20 years old which talks to it via rs232 or gpib. However, it relied on drivers for NI ISA bus era GPIB boards. Good luck finding those drivers! Back to rs232. On 6/30/2015 1:17 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 30 June 2015 18:03 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Advice Requested on Life Expectancy of a PC Windows System On 30/06/15 17:02, Dave G4UGM wrote: Well there are other reasons. You buy a new printer and you find it only works on Windows/7 onwards. Indeed. The latest stuff is (obviously) only tested against the current
Re: Spacewar paper has been published!
There's one machine not on you list although it doesn't surprise me. I worked on an Adage AGT-30 that had an excellent version of Spacewar ported to it (along with Life, Lunar Lander and 4x4x4 tic-tac-toe. These were all running sometime prior to 1972. I wonder if anyone else on the list worked on AGT's or the predecessor the Ambilog 200? Great graphics machines. 30 bits, 1's complement and a 4 x 3 matrix multiplier implemented with multiplying DACs. Marc On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Devin Monnens dmonn...@gmail.com wrote: It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the Spacewar paper I wrote with research from Martin Goldberg and responses from many people on this list has finally been published. The paper, Space Odyssey: The Long Journey of Spacewar from MIT to Computer Labs Around the World is available for free on Kinephanos, a bilingual Canadian journal about film, games, and new media. The paper explores the use and distribution of Spacewar after its creation at MIT and provides a detailed look at several computer labs, including those at Harvard, University of Minnesota, University of Michigan, and of course MIT and Stanford. http://www.kinephanos.ca/2015/space-odyssey-the-long-journey-of-spacewar-from-mit-to-computer-labs-around-the-world/ The paper was presented last year at the International History of Games Symposium in Montreal. The slides are available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22gYL7qHwW9dWMwQkNiWFlCMDA/view?usp=sharing Thank you to everyone who participated in the survey and provided help for our research. Martin and I would appreciate any feedback you have on the paper, including anything we might have missed or gotten in error and any new insights or memories you wish to share. Note we are still interested in collecting data through our survey, which anyone here is welcome to participate in. http://ataribook.com/book/spacewar-questionnaire/ Enjoy! -Devin Monnens -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
1) Start small. You can always add to the collection later.That often occurs, sometimes with accompanying amnesia of the actual transaction. 2) If you possess genes for “like to take things apart” and “ability to put things back together *** ” start with a Q-Bus VAX. The number and types of Q-Bus boards is very large. 3) If you don’t have both genes, start with a small MicroVAX 3100 or VAXstation equivalent. *** The gene for the ability to have it work after you put it back together is rare and hence optional. Whatever you do, have a good adventure. Jerry j...@ieee.org
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
-Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair Sent: 30 June 2015 19:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:23 , Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! This reminds me of when I was exploring a surplus yard, and found a *fire truck* buried in a pile. Walked right by it a few times before I noticed it. I also lusted after an 11/780 as my first VAX, but compromised on a much smaller and slower, but much more practical 11/730 system when one happened to turn up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/ I think if I had the opportunity to own a 780 I would do my best to *make* space for it, although I fear it would mean having to rent storage space. I'd love a 730 too. I am still incredulous that someone could lose or not realise they had a second 780! :-) Regards Rob
Re: Logos and typefaces and fonts (oh, my!) [was: RE: DEC Logo]
On 30/06/2015 20:21, Rich Alderson wrote: Note that I use the terms (type)face and logo, not font. Until Apple bastardized the term, a _font_ was a package of metal type in a particular _typeface_, and was the unit by which type was ordered from a foundry. A _logo_ was a special item, cast as a single unit for printing, not a collection of individual pieces of type. Someone in this thread mentioned having been in the graphics design trade, and can certainly back me up on this, as well as on the fact that advertising houses and departments generally designed their own lettering for lithographic reproduction rather than using commercially available typefaces That probably wasn't me - at least, not in this recent thread - but I can vouch for all of that having worked in the printing industry for some time, when metal type was common and phototypesetting was less common. And indeed, part of my early introduction to graphic art was about some of the elements of typeface design, as it was assumed graphic artists would need that. Hey, now we can talk about their abuse of kern, kerning, leading, and all the rest too ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I still think I would enjoy acquiring an 11/780 series machine someday, when my wallet recharges and I've had time to excavate enough room out in my barn. But for now, I'm pretty stoked just to have my little 11/730. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jun 29, 2015, at 01:22 , devin davison lyokob...@gmail.com wrote: My main place for looking for hardware has been ebay, although most of what im seeing is untested and expensive. Is there a better place to find older machines like this? Back to the original topic: By posting your interest in joining the VAX club here, you've already taken the first step towards getting one. As I got into retrocomputing a couple of years ago, I found that things started finding their way to me once the established collectors learned that I was looking for them. Keep your eyes open and be patient, and good hunting to you! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
they are known to multiply on their own... On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: On 6/30/15 4:08 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: I think if I had the opportunity to own a 780 I would do my best to *make* space for it, although I fear it would mean having to rent storage space. I'd love a 730 too. I am still incredulous that someone could lose or not realise they had a second 780! :-) Regards Rob Actually at one point I had 4 (or was it 5?) 11/78x machines. Some were 11/780s, one was an 11/780-5 and one was an 11/785. When I moved out of my shop, I put everything into storage. To keep the number of storage spaces at a minimum, I had to pack everything *tight*. Over the years, I sold some of them off and lost track of how many remained in storage. I knew that there was one in storage but as I was unpacking for the most recent move, I found that there were actually 2. TTFN - Guy
