Re: Lurker no more...

[Evan Koblentz]

Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the upside down   font  in  the email sig?   
Ed#


Google for "upside down ASCII text" ... there are many web sites that 
convert it for you  such as textflip.org.


˙bɹo˙dıןɟʇxǝʇ sɐ ɥɔns  noʎ ɹoɟ ʇı ʇɹǝʌuoɔ ʇɐɥʇ sǝʇıs qǝʍ ʎuɐɯ ǝɹɐ 
ǝɹǝɥʇ ˙˙˙ "ʇxǝʇ ııɔsɐ uʍop ǝpısdn" ɹoɟ ǝןboob

Re: Apple II Rev 2 value?

[Corey Cohen]

If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare 
empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches.  I'll check tonight. 

Where are you located?

It actually should be a silver supply.  I have a rev-4 with original silver 
supply.   I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. 

So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together.  The big question is 
that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case.  Can you be more specific? 
That affects the value.  

Cheers,
Corey 

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad  wrote:
> 
> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it.  Basically I tossed the clone board 
> and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer 
> basic ROMs) and I think PSU.  PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have 
> suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the 
> gold 2+ style one I have in there now.  Not sure on that.  The keyboard is 
> the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short 
> jumper wires.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value?
> 
> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the 
> condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original 
> datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one.  Infact it 
> may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less.   
> 
> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling 
> a case or a case with extras.  Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 
> Apple II because the motherboard is missing.  
> 
> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a 
> lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. 
> 
> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. 
> 
> As for the Rev 2.  In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k.  btw.  Rev 
> 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition.  Most aren't.  
> They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard.  If the 
> motherboard is replaced they are just a case.   
> 
> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, 
> they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time.  I have 
> seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something 
> went for.   You just never know.  
> 
> Cheers,
> Corey 
> 
> corey cohen
> uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad  wrote:
>> 
>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range.  I'm hoping to, over 
>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0.  I've seen Rev 0 
>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish.  Below that seems to be 
>> a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc.  Although, 
>> no always.  Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still 
>> gone for $2500.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up.  My questions (and I realize this is 
>> all
>> opinion):
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 1)  What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth?  Again it's serial number is
>> in the 38000 range, black label.  It was in France and had its 
>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization 
>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of 
>> the case was done.  I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic 
>> chips.  I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully 
>> functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with 
>> bad traces.
>> 
>> 2)  What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is
>> in so/so  condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard?  
>> Is a Rev 2 anything special?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> 

Re: Gov. & the machine(s) we love

[Ben Sinclair]

I can't answer that question directly... The new Steve Jobs movie,
while a good, entertaining Sorkin film, is great, but by not a history
of personal computing or even Apple.

If you haven't read Hackers by Steven Levy, I'd recommend that as a
fun starting point!

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Murray McCullough
 wrote:
> What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the
> microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide?  “Steve Jobs the
> Movie” doesn’t mention this nor have  books written about him and
> microcomputers in general mentioned this. Not even mine! Do the
> computers we love owe more to gov. than we care to admit? Granted I'm
> a Cdn. and 'we' here up north view it somewhat differently than
> Americans...
>
> Happy computing.
>
> Murray  :)



-- 
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: Gov. & the machine(s) we love

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Murray McCullough wrote:

What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the
microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide?  “Steve Jobs the
Movie” doesn’t mention this nor have  books written about him and
microcomputers in general mentioned this. Not even mine! Do the
computers we love owe more to gov. than we care to admit? Granted I'm
a Cdn. and 'we' here up north view it somewhat differently than
Americans...


It is arguable how much influence Steve Jobs had in ADVANCING
consumer computers, but by the time that he got involved,
CREATION of microcomputers was alreaqdy a given.
What did Jobs invent?  besides the cult of Jobs
It's like talking about gates "inventing" operating systems!
BTW, is Woz getting squeezed out of the histories?



Instead, we need to look at the relative involvements of academia, 
guvmint, military, and industry (foreign and domestic).  Like the 
development of the internet (I do not see an "invention" nor a definable 
creation date), there were several major forces that helped in their own 
self-serving ways to bring it about.



In terms of what brought about the creation of microcomputers, 
look particularly at where the impetus and funding came from for the 
4004 and similar.


The creation of the microprocessor made microcomputers inevitable.
Not just "possible", "inevitable".
It was no longer an "invention", merely major engineering to build it.

When I left NASA in 1972, I declared, "I'll get back into computers as 
soon as those "tabletop computers" WITH FORTRAN, get down to my price 
range."   I was not a great prognosticator.  It was OBVIOUS.



It's like Columbus and the "discovery" of America.  He was NOT the first, 
and if he hadn't done it, it was only a matter of time before somebody 
else did a variant of the "discovery" that didn't get forgotten and denied 
(like the Vikings).  It probably would NOT have taken until we had 
pictures from space :-)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[ANDY HOLT]

From: "Fred Cisin" 
> They literally refused to understand that a 
> dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory.

In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and
keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all
their customers.
This, I think, is an example of "big data" … possibly so big that backup
is impracticable.
When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students
at a University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory 
on my desktop system (well specified) … now imagine 20 million users for 365 
days - I'd be doubtful
that even todays mainframes and supercomputers could do that.

* When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was
"we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging"). 

Andy

RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
> Sent: 30 October 2015 22:40
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in
> "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran
> 
> >>> They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that
> >>> would be too large to fit into memory.
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
> > About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of
> > the URLs accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the
> > URL's that I had accessed.
> 
> Or you could "comply" by listing only URLs that were typed in.

I couldn't figure out how to work that out without installing a key logger
on the users PC

> "He typed in GOOGLE.COM, and spent hours before he typed any other
> URLS.
> No idea what he did on that site; he might have filled in fields, or
clicked on
> things.  How would you feel about installing a camera to look over his
> shoulder?"  (let them acknowledge what they are really doing.)
> 
> 
> 

Re: Lurker no more...

[COURYHOUSE]

it is pretty neat!!!
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2015 1:36:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
appleco...@optonline.net writes:

I  honestly don't remember.  I know Woz sent me instructions on how to do  
it, this was a few years ago.  I've just been cutting and pasting the  
competed signature since then, so I forgot.   Maybe I can dig up the  
instructions over the weekend.  

FYI.  I  just got the  daily digest on my other email and it apparently 
strips out the upside down  stuff.  

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ  ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:27 PM, couryho...@aol.com  wrote:
> 
> Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the  upside down   font  in  the email 
>  sig?   Ed#
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message  dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
>  appleco...@optonline.net writes:
> 
> Well I  finally setup a  separate email address so I can receive 
individual 
> messages   from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't 
lend 
>  itself to  posting back.   
> 
> Just wanted to say  hi.  
> 
> Cheers,
> Corey
> 
> corey  cohen
> uǝɥoɔ  ʎǝɹoɔ

RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY
> HOLT
> Sent: 30 October 2015 21:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in
> "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran
> 
> From: "Fred Cisin" 
> > They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that
> > would be too large to fit into memory.
> 
> In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and keep
> (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all their 
> customers.
> This, I think, is an example of "big data" … possibly so big that backup is
> impracticable.
> When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students at a
> University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory
> on my desktop system (well specified) … now imagine 20 million users for 365
> days - I'd be doubtful that even todays mainframes and supercomputers
> could do that.
> 

About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of the URLs 
accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the URL's that I had 
accessed. 
It was totally useless, mainly because every page these day as is a composite. 
Add to that allowing Outlook to download the content of an HTML e-mail ..
.. its almost a totally pointless exercise

> * When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was
> "we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging").
> 
> Andy

Re: IBM cluster for auction

[jwsmobile]

On 10/30/2015 2:19 PM, Dave Wade wrote:

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton
Hoag
Sent: 30 October 2015 21:13
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

Subject: IBM cluster for auction

May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I
have just started following GovDeals.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item=1624=
4788

Cluster is in Ohio.


It’s a pretty bog standard AMD CPU based server rack. There are several on 
E-Bay at present. If it had been an iSeries or zSeries then it could be of 
interest...


Pax

--
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA

Dave


Some time travel will be required as well, since the terms require 
removal by 7/31/2015


But luckily we are now past the 10/21/2015 time frame and Marty and Doc 
have delivered the Flux Capacitor to us.


Off we go.

Thanks
Jim

IBM cluster for auction

[Paxton Hoag]

May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I
have just started following GovDeals.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item=1624=4788

Cluster is in Ohio.

Pax

-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Lee Courtney]

"I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn
that not everything can fit into memory at once).

TTFN - Guy"

Second.

Lee C.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:

>
> > On Oct 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Paul Koning 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >> Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just
> a
> >> number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little
> >> more about how a computer actually worked.
> >
> > That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was
> writing a document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update
> correctly.  He was tripping over the issue of negative zero.  I told him
> the answer simply was to subtract the complement with end around borrow.
> He didn't believe me and ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every
> case.
> >
> >
> My favorite of this class of issues, was when I was working at a startup
> doing an embedded product with Linux as the OS.  We all had Linux machines
> for building/testing.  I was responsible for the Linux kernel at the
> company.  I had someone come up to me and said “the VM system is broken…my
> program works fine on my desktop but I keep getting page faults on the
> embedded platform”.  The conversation was something like this:
> Me:  So, what’s the program doing memory wise?
> Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into
> the array.
> Me: How big are the structures?
> Him: About 4K
> Me: How many are you allocating?
> Him: 100,000
> Me: Rolls eyes.  That’s 4GB.  We don’t have 4GB on the embedded platform.
> You don’t even have that on your workstation.
> Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform.
> Me: We don’t have paging turned on in the embedded platform.
> Him: Can’t we turn it on?  It makes my code so simple!
> Me: No!  Go allocate a *reasonable* sized array (say 100) and shuffle in
> from the disk when the data you need isn’t there.  You walk the data
> structure mostly sequentially anyway, so there’s no reason to have the
> entire file in memory.
>
> I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn
> that not everything can fit into memory at once).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

"Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into the 
array.
Me: How big are the structures?
Him: About 4K
Me: How many are you allocating?
Him: 100,000
Me: Rolls eyes.  That’s 4GB.  We don’t have 4GB on the embedded platform.  You 
don’t even have that on your workstation.
Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform.
Me: We don’t have paging turned on in the embedded platform.
Him: Can’t we turn it on?  It makes my code so simple!
. . . 
I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once).


I struggled with that for 30 years.
Third semester programming students in Data Structures and Algorithms 
classes still insisted on trying to load the whole file into memory.
Even in the simplistic example that I gave them of a business appending a 
record to an already sorted file and then sorting it, when they should 
have sorted just the appended records and then done a two file input, one 
file output merge, with only two records in memory at a time.


I always assigned them a problem of writing a sort for a file/dataset too 
big to fit into memory.  They literally refused to understand that a 
dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory.
A couple of students wrote a letter to the college 
administration complaining about me and the department and our 
"out-dated" curriculum, insisting that "in the real world, the proper 
solution to a file too big for memory is to replace the computer with a 
bigger one."   I was actually called on the carpet to answer the charge! 
That was trivially easy when I pointed out to the chancellor how much it 
would COST to equip the student homework computer labs with computers 
capable of holding a national telephone directory in memory.


Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand.  Consider 
Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if 
their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that YOUR 
COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster computer.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Fred Cisin]

> "I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment 
> (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once).

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Lee Courtney wrote:

Second.


It's hard to get students to care about what you are saying when you 
mention tapes.  You need to explain the algorithms using files.

Even though CD/DVD is a sequential storage system.

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand.  Consider 
> Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if 
> their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that YOUR 
> COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster computer.
>

Seems perfectly logical to me.  Microsoft blames your hardware for their
bloatware running slowly.  You update the hardware and it solves the problem.
Then they can ratchet up the bloat level again and convince you that the
reason the new version runs so slowly is because the hardware you are running
it on is no longer up to it.  They were right the first time, so why wouldn't
they be right this time? GOTO 10.

Writing efficient software to get the best out of the hardware would sure spoil
that business model.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Lurker no more...

[Mouse]

>> Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the upside down   font  in  the email sig$
> Google for "upside down ASCII text" ... there are many web sites that
> convert it for you  such as textflip.org.

Maybe, if you're willing to assume Unicode support on the receiver's
end (which on this list strikes me as even less likely than most).  For
example, a capture of my mail-reading window looking at your message is
in ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/cctalk-msg.gif for your
pointing and laug^W^W^Wamusement and edification.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 01:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:



I always assigned them a problem of writing a sort for a file/dataset
 too big to fit into memory.  They literally refused to understand
that a dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into
memory. A couple of students wrote a letter to the college
administration complaining about me and the department and our
"out-dated" curriculum, insisting that "in the real world, the proper
solution to a file too big for memory is to replace the computer with
a bigger one."   I was actually called on the carpet to answer the
charge! That was trivially easy when I pointed out to the chancellor
how much it would COST to equip the student homework computer labs
with computers capable of holding a national telephone directory in
memory.


How times change.  Most programmers of my era, would do it the "old" way 
by habit--read in bits of the dataset.  It took quite a bit of 
relearning that mapping a file into a 48-bit address space and operating 
on the data directly, letting the pager do the bookkeeping could render 
what at first started out to be a fairly complicated job, very simple.


--Chuck

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Fred Cisin]

> They literally refused to understand that a
> dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, ANDY HOLT wrote:

In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and
keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all
their customers.
This, I think, is an example of "big data" … possibly so big that backup
is impracticable.
When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students
at a University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory
on my desktop system (well specified) … now imagine 20 million users for 365 
days - I'd be doubtful
that even todays mainframes and supercomputers could do that.
* When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was
"we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging").


That would have been a much better example to bring up with the 
Chancellor, since the Peralta Colleges administrators would LOVE

to keep track of all student computer usage!
He would have thought that it was a trivial requirement until walking him 
through the arithmetic.



At one time, they had a "Chief Information Officer" who was joining 
[temporarily?] various Yahoo email groups for the sole purpose of access 
to archives to look for faculty posting "inappropriate" content (any 
defamation of Peralta administration!)   Yes, John Wxxx, eat shit and 
die.

The list seems very quiet today

[rod]

The list seems very quiet to-day.
I have had only one post this morning.
Anybody know why?

Rod Smallwood

Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Liam Proven]

«Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages

To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know
FORTRAN and assembly languages.
»

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Coghlan
> Sent: 30 October 2015 23:22
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in
> "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran
> 
> >
> > Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand.  Consider
> > Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if
> > their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that
> > YOUR COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster
> computer.
> >
> 
> Seems perfectly logical to me.  Microsoft blames your hardware for their
> bloatware running slowly.  You update the hardware and it solves the
> problem.

Not for a long time. Windows/7 was faster than Vista and XP. Never tried 8.0
or 8.1 in anger but they generally needed the same hardware as 7.
Windows/10 might use more disk space but it runs more quickly than 7.

> Then they can ratchet up the bloat level again and convince you that the
> reason the new version runs so slowly is because the hardware you are
> running it on is no longer up to it.  They were right the first time, so
why
> wouldn't they be right this time? GOTO 10.
> 

It no longer works because new machines are not orders of magnitude faster.

> Writing efficient software to get the best out of the hardware would sure
> spoil that business model.
> 

Why? Hardware hasn't really got much faster over the last four years. More
CPU's have been added. In hardware terms anything that runs XP well will run
anything later.
There might be missing drivers, but in general its not a spec problem.

> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

Dave Wade
G4UGM

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:21 PM, ANDY HOLT  wrote:
> 
> From: "Fred Cisin" 
>> They literally refused to understand that a 
>> dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory.
> 
> In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and
> keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all
> their customers.

Orwell's inspiration must have come from nearby.

Meanwhile, Tor to the rescue.

paul

Re: Gov. & the machine(s) we love

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Murray McCullough 
>  wrote:
> 
> What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the
> microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide?  

Interesting question.  Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated circuits 
came from the space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI) predate that. 
 And the first microcomputer, the Intel 4004, was as far as I remember built to 
be the engine of a calculator.

So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins, but were 
not drivers.

paul

Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 05:18 PM, Dave Wade wrote:

Why? Hardware hasn't really got much faster over the last four years. More
CPU's have been added. In hardware terms anything that runs XP well will run
anything later.
There might be missing drivers, but in general its not a spec problem.


I run XP on non-SSE2 hardware, but I suspect W10 demands it--certainly, 
many browsers do.


--Chuck

Re: Lurker no more...

[Jon Elson]

On 10/30/2015 12:27 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the upside down   font  in  the email
sig?   Ed#
  
  
  
  
In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

appleco...@optonline.net writes:

Well I  finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual
messages  from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend
itself to  posting back.

Just wanted to say hi.

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ  ʎǝɹoɔ


That last line prints out in show message source like this :

u=C7=9D=C9=A5o=C9=94  =CA=8E=C7=9D=C9=B9o=C9=94

Jon

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr.]

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students
> understand how computers _actually work_, underneath.
> 
> [example of students who wrote octal math for CLU]

Back in 1983 I needed an assembler for the Motorola 6809, so I wrote one
in Lisp on a TRS-80 Model I. I know very well how things really work (I
design microprocessors at the transistor level) and yet I created a hex
math package in Lisp just like in your example. Sure it was orders of
magnitude slower than using the language's native math and doing all the
conversions in the i/o routines, but it was very elegant and was fast
enough for the sizes of the programs we needed to assemble.

So while I insist on knowing all the details, I also enjoy tools that
don't depend on me knowing.

-- Jecel

Re: Gov. & the machine(s) we love

[william degnan]

On Oct 30, 2015 8:50 PM, "Paul Koning"  wrote:
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Murray McCullough <
c.murray.mccullo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the
> > microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide?
>
> Interesting question.  Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated
circuits came from the space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI)
predate that.  And the first microcomputer, the Intel 4004, was as far as I
remember built to be the engine of a calculator.
>
> So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins,
but were not drivers.
>
> paul
>
>

I read about the datapoint 3300, how cdc was connected to the 4004.  I also
read about how the 4004 was inspired by the f14 (?) fighter jet, Can anyone
confirm these?

Re: Emulex QD32

[Jon Elson]

On 10/30/2015 12:04 PM, Christian Corti wrote:

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:


Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the 
program won't support a Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II.


Oh, that was a typo. It actually says this:

B DUA0


  2..1..0..

Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2  MicroVAX II  16-SEP-1985 09:00:00

OK, that makes much more sense with the 1985 date.  Can't 
imagine anybody using a MicroVAX I for more than a couple 
months after the UV-II came out.


Jon

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[John Wilson]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 11:02:28AM +, rod wrote:
>The list seems very quiet to-day.
>I have had only one post this morning.
>Anybody know why?

I've been getting echos of the RF08/RS08 posts.  Happens every few days.
Either the list server is getting a bit senile, or I am.  Or both.

John Wilson
D Bit

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Liam Proven]

On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:
> The list seems very quiet to-day.
> I have had only one post this morning.
> Anybody know why?


No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Rod Smallwood

> The list seems very quiet to-day. I have had only one post this
> morning. Anybody know why?

They're all tired out from the large amount of traffic over the past couple
of days? ;-)

But seriously, it's not quite 9AM yet now, on the US East Coast (and I would
guess the plurality of list members are in the US), so that's almost
certainly part of it, too.

Noel

RE: Omnibus TSC8-75 schematic?

[Rick Bensene]

Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> If a schematic isn't available, but a unit was made available on loan to
> reverse-engineer, I'd be willing to do it. 

At this stage, it appears that no original schematic for this board has been 
uncovered.

Efforts are currently underway to reverse-engineer an actual TSC8-75 board and 
derive a useful schematic. It is hopeful there will be something available 
relatively soon.  

The particular board being reverse-engineered has a serial number of <700, so 
it will not have the ESME IOT implemented, but it has been discovered that ETOS 
does not require this IOT in order to run properly.   ETOS will run slightly 
more efficiently if the board supports the ESME IOT (6365), but it will still 
run just fine on the boards that don't have the feature.

I'll try to post updates here as the project progresses.

It is my hope to be able to construct a functional equivalent of one of these 
boards, and get ETOS running on my physical 8/e system.   The biggest challenge 
is going to be replacing the pesky SP380A (12 used on the board) and SP314A 
(one used on the board) chips used for Omnibus interface, but there's a lot of 
discussion in the mailing list archives about replacements that seem to work , 
so it shouldn't be too difficult.

-Rick

There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic

[Noel Chiappa]

I love this person's style:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336

It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35!

Noel

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Fred Cisin]

On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:

The list seems very quiet to-day.
I have had only one post this morning.
Anybody know why?


Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:

No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...


extinct?  or just too shameful?

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> «Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages
> 
> To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know
> FORTRAN and assembly languages.
> »
> 
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/

Neat.  I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is 
qualified for that job.  Assembly language programming, on a machine with such 
large memory as 64k?  Sure.  Fortran?  Algol?  Even those who don't know can 
likely learn it easily.

The key requirement is the mindset needed to work on old computers, with (by 
today's standards) slow execution and small memory.  That's something most of 
us have, either from actually doing it, or from being interested in it.

paul

Front Panel Update

[rod]

Hi Guys
 I just got back from the meeting at the silk screen shop.
They are going to start by printing ten PDP8/e panels with the details 
that are common to both A and B.
I'm sending them a couple of overlays. One to convert the common panel 
to an A Type and the other to make it into a B type.
 Four A type and Three B type are sold. This means I have three slots 
left that can become either an A or a B.


Same goes for 8/f and 8/m . They will print up to the common point and  
an overlay will turn it into either an /f or /m
This time the stock will be a bit better.  Two /f have gone so eight 
slots are available to become a /f or a /m


So to be able to make an 8/e Type  A or Type B takes
  One precut perspex sheet,
  One screen for each color (two)
  One screen for the white
  One matte finish coating
  Two screens for the overlays
  One screen for the lamp view ports on the back.

   Total six silk screens

  Then I'll add in packing and shipping cost.


I'll freeze the order on Monday
Then work out  the unit price and add in packing and shipping cost.
Then call for payment  from those without prepaid orders.

So there are three 8/e A or B  slots and eight 8/f or 8/m slots 
available until Monday


Rod Smallwood

Emulex QD32

[Christian Corti]

Hi all,

I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an 
Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm 
looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 
AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I 
have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR" 
gives only an error, so I assume they are faulty/incomplete.

That's what I get:


b dua0


  2..1..0..

Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2  MicroVAX I  16-SEP-1985 09:00:00


uEVM>DIR

---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR



Is there by any chance also a diagnostic manual for this stuff?

Christian

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Brian Marstella]

I saw a couple of posts; thought it seemed a little slow today as well. I
did see Liam's post regarding Fortran, which I did have a semester of back
in '93. Probably a little rusty as there just isn't a lot of need for it...

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:
>
>> The list seems very quiet to-day.
>> I have had only one post this morning.
>> Anybody know why?
>>
>
> Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...
>>
>
> extinct?  or just too shameful?
>
>
>

Re: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic

[P Gebhardt]

Noel, I've observed this quite some times now on ebay: Some people put up 

auctions for a price and the auctions end with no bidders. Afterwards, they 
re-list the 

items long term (so no auction) with higher prices. They go fishing for the 

rare number of people interested in these things.


Cheers,
Pierre

 
--- 

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de


- Ursprüngliche Message -
> Von: Noel Chiappa 
> An: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> CC: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Gesendet: 14:59 Freitag, 30.Oktober 2015
> Betreff: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic
> 
> I love this person's style:
> 
>   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336
> 
> It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35!
> 
> Noel
>

RE: IBM cluster for auction

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton
> Hoag
> Sent: 30 October 2015 21:13
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: IBM cluster for auction
> 
> May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I
> have just started following GovDeals.
> 
> https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item=1624=
> 4788
> 
> Cluster is in Ohio.
> 

It’s a pretty bog standard AMD CPU based server rack. There are several on 
E-Bay at present. If it had been an iSeries or zSeries then it could be of 
interest...

> Pax
> 
> --
> Paxton Hoag
> Astoria, OR
> USA

Dave

Re: Gov. & the machine(s) we love

[william degnan]

>
>
> Instead, we need to look at the relative involvements of academia,
guvmint, military, and industry (foreign and domestic).  Like the
development of the internet (I do not see an "invention" nor a definable
creation date), there were several major forces that helped in their own
self-serving ways to bring it about.
>
>
> In terms of what brought about the creation of microcomputers, look
particularly at where the impetus and funding came from for the 4004 and
similar.
>


I agree.

We live in a world of simplified history.

One good effect is that you can still buy/find truly historic items for
study that have been ignored by the pop culture tech kitch e-zine top 10
ten list crowd scene.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran

[Fred Cisin]

They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that
would be too large to fit into memory.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of the 
URLs accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the URL's 
that I had accessed.


Or you could "comply" by listing only URLs that were typed in.
"He typed in GOOGLE.COM, and spent hours before he typed any other URLS. 
No idea what he did on that site; he might have filled in fields, or 
clicked on things.  How would you feel about installing a camera to look 
over his shoulder?"  (let them acknowledge what they are really doing.)

Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015

[Mike Stein]

Hi Jack,

Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on VCF
because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike
Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on Picasa;
thanks for posting - always fun to see some of the
European stuff.

I didn't hear or see anything about VCF-Berlin
either; a shame since I have friends and relatives
in Berlin and nearby, and this would have been a
great excuse to finally visit them again. Maybe
next year...

Will we see you at the World of Commodore this
year on December 5?

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Rubin" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:13 PM
Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015


Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin -
http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is
at the Vintage Computer Forum -
http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd .  Enjoy - I
certainly did!

Jack

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Liam Proven]

On 30 October 2015 at 16:28, Paul Koning  wrote:
> Neat.  I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is 
> qualified for that job.


That's why I posted it! :-)



-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Jerry Weiss]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
>> 
>> «Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages
>> 
>> To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know
>> FORTRAN and assembly languages.
>> »
>> 
>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/
> 
> Neat.  I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is 
> qualified for that job.  Assembly language programming, on a machine with 
> such large memory as 64k?  Sure.  Fortran?  Algol?  Even those who don't know 
> can likely learn it easily.
> 
> The key requirement is the mindset needed to work on old computers, with (by 
> today's standards) slow execution and small memory.  That's something most of 
> us have, either from actually doing it, or from being interested in it.
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

Additionally a QSL Card from Oort Cloud or Kuiper Belt to hang in the Ham Shack 
would be nice.


Jerry
wb9mri

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Peter Coghlan]

Fred Cisin  wrote:
>
> On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:
> > The list seems very quiet to-day.
> > I have had only one post this morning.
> > Anybody know why?
>
> Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?
>

Nah - VCF-Paris is just a decoy to distract the few who might have heard about
the ultra secret VCF-Madrid.

> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
> > No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...
>
> extinct?  or just too shameful?
>

Too busy trying to contact NASA to see if they are willing to take on someone
telecommuting across the Atlantic Ocean (after all, the difference in distance
to where the probes are now would not be of any significance).

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 02:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

«Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages


I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated.  That there is an X3 group 
still advancing the language attests to that.  While FORTRAN may be a 
60-year old language, Fortran is not.


As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language.  When you 
need simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go.


--Chuck

Re: Emulex QD32

[Jon Elson]

On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

Hi all,

I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk 
attached to an Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test 
and/or format the disk and so I'm looking for images of 
the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 AFAIK). 
Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ 
boot, but I have not the faintest idea of how to start 
anything in there; even a "DIR"

How about HELP or even "?"

I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program.

Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the 
program won't support a Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II.


Jon

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Diane Bruce]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 09:01:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 10/30/2015 02:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> > «Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages
> 
> I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated.  That there is an X3 group 
> still advancing the language attests to that.  While FORTRAN may be a 
> 60-year old language, Fortran is not.

Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem to
still use Fortran.

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i

> 
> As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language.  When you 
> need simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 
> 

-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: Emulex QD32

[Jay Jaeger]

On 10/30/2015 9:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an
> Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm
> looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50
> AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but
> I have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a
> "DIR" gives only an error, so I assume they are faulty/incomplete.
> That's what I get:
> 
 b dua0
> 
>   2..1..0..
> 
> Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2  MicroVAX I  16-SEP-1985 09:00:00
> 
> 
> uEVM>DIR
> 
> ---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR
> 

I also have a QD32. I have Emulex diagnostics, but on a TK50, and I
don't have an image, nor do I have any diagnostic documentation.

However, when I ran the diagnostic (many YEARS ago) on my uVax II
(FVD32M) it was self-explanatory.

The tape is VX9962004 Rev J.

My notes say:

FQD01M is the MSCP FORMAT program for a QD32 (and QD01 and SC03) for a
PDP-11.

FVD32M is the MSCP FORMAT program for a QD32 (and QD01 and SC41 and
SC03) on a uVax.  So this is the one you want.

HELP is supposed to give help.
DIR is supposed to list the diagnostics.

> 
> 
> Is there by any chance also a diagnostic manual for this stuff?
> 
> Christian
> 

There is an Emulex QD32 manual on bitsavers, but it doesn't seem to have
any info on the diagnostics.

JRJ

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Jerome H. Fine]

>Liam Proven wrote:


«Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages

To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know
FORTRAN and assembly languages.
»

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/


Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform?
I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN
and assembly language, but that was only 50 years ago.

There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job
at a time.  All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output.

But it did work well for that era.

Jerome Fine

Re: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic

[Eric Christopherson]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:16 AM, P Gebhardt  wrote:

> Noel, I've observed this quite some times now on ebay: Some people put up
>
> auctions for a price and the auctions end with no bidders. Afterwards,
> they re-list the
>
> items long term (so no auction) with higher prices. They go fishing for the
>
> rare number of people interested in these things.
>

I saw something similar recently on Freegeek Portland's eBay store. They
listed a customized Atari Falcon030 and it "sold" for $481. Then apparently
the buyer backed out, so they relisted it, starting at $499. At
http://ebay.to/1P9Zr0y it shows it as "Ended" but I don't see a buyer
anywhere.


>
>
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to:
> http://www.digitalheritage.de
>
>
> - Ursprüngliche Message -
> > Von: Noel Chiappa 
> > An: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > CC: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> > Gesendet: 14:59 Freitag, 30.Oktober 2015
> > Betreff: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic
> >
> > I love this person's style:
> >
> >   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336
> >
> > It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35!
> >
> > Noel
> >
>



-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Emulex QD32

[Sue Skonetski]

Just something cool - VMS Software Inc. is located in what used to be the 
Emulex building in Bolton MA.

Sue Skonetski



> On Oct 30, 2015, at 12:21 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an 
>> Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm 
>> looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 AFAIK). 
>> Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I have not 
>> the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR"
> How about HELP or even "?"
> 
> I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program.
> 
> Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the program won't support a 
> Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II.
> 
> Jon

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
sue.skonet...@vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Grüßen – Avec mes meilleures salutations

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a
>> number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little
>> more about how a computer actually worked.
> 
> That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was writing 
> a document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update correctly.  
> He was tripping over the issue of negative zero.  I told him the answer 
> simply was to subtract the complement with end around borrow.  He didn't 
> believe me and ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every case.
> 
> 
My favorite of this class of issues, was when I was working at a startup doing 
an embedded product with Linux as the OS.  We all had Linux machines for 
building/testing.  I was responsible for the Linux kernel at the company.  I 
had someone come up to me and said “the VM system is broken…my program works 
fine on my desktop but I keep getting page faults on the embedded platform”.  
The conversation was something like this:
Me:  So, what’s the program doing memory wise?
Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into the 
array.
Me: How big are the structures?
Him: About 4K
Me: How many are you allocating?
Him: 100,000
Me: Rolls eyes.  That’s 4GB.  We don’t have 4GB on the embedded platform.  You 
don’t even have that on your workstation.
Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform.
Me: We don’t have paging turned on in the embedded platform.
Him: Can’t we turn it on?  It makes my code so simple!
Me: No!  Go allocate a *reasonable* sized array (say 100) and shuffle in from 
the disk when the data you need isn’t there.  You walk the data structure 
mostly sequentially anyway, so there’s no reason to have the entire file in 
memory.

I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn that 
not everything can fit into memory at once).

TTFN - Guy

Re: Apple II Rev 2 value?

[Corey Cohen]

Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the 
condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original 
datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one.  Infact it may 
only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less.   

Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a 
case or a case with extras.  Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple 
II because the motherboard is missing.  

Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a 
lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. 

Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. 

As for the Rev 2.  In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k.  btw.  Rev 0 
are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition.  Most aren't.  They 
tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard.  If the motherboard is 
replaced they are just a case.   

Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, 
they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time.  I have 
seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went 
for.   You just never know.  

Cheers,
Corey 

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad  wrote:
> 
> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range.  I'm hoping to, over the
> years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0.  I've seen Rev 0 units go on
> ebay recently for around $3000ish.  Below that seems to be a jumble, mostly
> to do with completeness, originality, etc.  Although, no always.  Some have
> had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking to move up.  My questions (and I realize this is all
> opinion):
> 
> 
> 
> 1)  What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth?  Again it's serial number is
> in the 38000 range, black label.  It was in France and had its original
> board replaced with a clone board, and some customization including a small
> switch for power that was drilled into the back of the case was done.  I
> have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic chips.  I also did some
> repairs on the keyboard and it is fully functional, but the repairs involved
> a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces.
> 
> 2)  What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is
> in so/so  condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard?  Is a
> Rev 2 anything special?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Lurker no more...

[Corey Cohen]

Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual 
messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend 
itself to posting back.   

Just wanted to say hi. 

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Sean Caron  wrote:
> 
> ...
> What concerns me is the amount of code these days that is being written in
> languages that has no formal standard at all. Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, the
> list goes on ... I wonder how much of it will still be useful in ten or
> fifteen years.

Good question.  Then again, only a few languages I can think of had a formal 
standard from the start: Algol 68 and Algol 68, plus probably Ada (don't know 
that one well enough to be definite about it).

All the others were either never standardized, or standardized long after the 
fact.  The ones you list are examples of the former, as are many others (PL/I 
for example?); examples of the latter include Fortran, C, APL, COBOL, Pascal, 
and presumably many others as well.

Also, being useable 10-15 years from now requires the availability of 
compatible implementations, or enough information to allow them to be created.  
Standardization is only very loosely connected to that.  For one thing, 
standards generally change what existed before (indeed, this is often a 
deliberate part of the process).  ANSI C is not compatible with K C, though 
converting one to the other isn't terribly hard, and supporting both isn't 
either.  Similarly, ANSI Fortran isn't FORTRAN II.  Nor is Python 3 the same as 
Python 1.5.  But all of these are manageable conversion problems.

For that matter, there's translation.  You don't need a standard for the 
implementation language of some algorithm; it suffices (at the cost of some 
labor) to have an understanding of whatever language it was written in, and the 
knowledge to translate that to a currently available language.

paul

Re: Lurker no more...

[COURYHOUSE]

Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the upside down   font  in  the email 
sig?   Ed#
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
appleco...@optonline.net writes:

Well I  finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual 
messages  from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend 
itself to  posting back.   

Just wanted to say hi.  

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ  ʎǝɹoɔ

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated.  That there is an X3 group still 
advancing the language attests to that.  While FORTRAN may be a 60-year old 
language, Fortran is not.


Which one is NASA looking for?  FORTRAN/Fortran in general, or expertise 
with the variants from half a century ago?



As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language.  When you need 
simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go.


The rumors of its demise have been around for a long time.

2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate 
"Computer Science" at UC (pronounced "UCK") Berkeley, Clancy and Harvey, 
declared, "Assembly language is dead! Nobody will ever program in it 
again.", and shifted their program to Scheme/Lisp.   They also 
discontinued any beginning courses in C, claiming that anybody entering 
college for Computer Science should/would "already know C".
That increased UC Berkeley student enrollment in the C classes that I 
taught at Merritt College  (Peralta Community College District), and our 
Fortram classes got a lot of UC Berkeley students who had Fortran as a 
degree requirement in various science departments.


Philippe Kahn said, about his "Turbo-Assembler", that "Assembly language 
is not for programming; it is for debugging".


I have to admit that assembly language may no longer be a great career 
path, but there will always be need for some levels of hand optimization.


Note: I realize that some may feel a need to differentiate between machine 
language programming and assembly language programming.  I acknowledge 
the difference, but feel that in this context they can be lumped together.



It is always amusing how desperate some peop[le seem to be to declare the 
demise of any systems that they aren't involved in.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:39 PM, ben  wrote:
> 
> On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:
>>> The list seems very quiet to-day.
>>> I have had only one post this morning.
>>> Anybody know why?
>> 
>> Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?
>> 
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...
>> 
>> extinct?  or just too shameful?
>> 
> Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran.
> Porting the old software to newer hardware?

Presumably the Fortran is at the Earth end.  Yes, you could port it, but you 
can't port it if you can't read the original.  And given that you have a 
perfectly good Fortran implementation still available, porting it may not be 
all that useful.  (Now if they were talking Jovial, the answer might be 
different -- though even there you can keep running the original, perhaps in 
emulation.)

paul

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 10:38 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:


There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job at a
time.  All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output.


IBSYS and/or FMS don't qualify as operating systems?  The usage of the 
1401 to do unit record I/O was the original application of the term 
"SPOOL".  Many use the term today, uncapitalized, without realizing that 
it's an acronym.


--Chuck

Re: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel)

[Jay Jaeger]

No, not looking for a reproduction.  Just posted it in case it would help folks 
with a possible RK11-C display panel concept.

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 15:31, rod  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jay
>  Is this what you want me to look at with a view to panel reproduction ?
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
>> On 29/10/15 20:28, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> Looking at the document at:
>> 
>> http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf
>> 
>> The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the
>> organization of legends and breaks in line.  Since I have what I think
>> is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe
>> to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08.
>> 
>> However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36
>> bits each.  I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of
>> light panels.
>> 
>> For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power
>> supply, platter and display and display measurements, see:
>> 
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM
>> 
>> I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder
>> Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08)
>> 
>> The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the
>> controller (RF08) electronics, etc.  (The very first photo shows some
>> mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely
>> disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I
>> recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple
>> vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos).  There is also a
>> photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container)
>> platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel.
>> 
>> In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components,
>> and a text file with measurements.
>> 
>> Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display.  I didn't
>> want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS.
>> 
>> JRJ
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the indicator 
>>> panel,
>>> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which signals are
>>> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell where 
>>> the
>>> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not
>>> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and almost
>>> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right swap,
>>> > there are no fields which span the boundary).
>>> 
>>> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert:
>>> 
>>>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt
>>> 
>>> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we see one.
>>> 
>>> Noel
> 

Re: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel)

[Mattis Lind]

2015-10-30 13:54 GMT+01:00 Jay Jaeger :

> No, not looking for a reproduction.  Just posted it in case it would help
> folks with a possible RK11-C display panel concept.
>

Interesting. We also have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It came with two PDP-8/L
machines. I am not sure if both PDP-8/L CPUs were connected to the RF08
simultaneously or how it was connected once upon a time since all cabling
has been removed prior to us getting to it. The front panel look exactly
the same. The drive and controller sits in a full height cabinet with the
drive in the middle and the controller at the top.

What is the plan with your RF08/ RS08? Is it possible to get it complete or
is just parts? The RS08 seems to be a DF32 on steroids. The question is if
it would be possible to have our unit working some day? Anyone tried to get
these things to run?




>
> > On Oct 29, 2015, at 15:31, rod  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jay
> >  Is this what you want me to look at with a view to panel
> reproduction ?
> >
> > Rod
> >
> >
> >> On 29/10/15 20:28, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> >> Looking at the document at:
> >>
> >>
> http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf
> >>
> >> The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the
> >> organization of legends and breaks in line.  Since I have what I think
> >> is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe
> >> to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08.
> >>
> >> However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36
> >> bits each.  I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of
> >> light panels.
> >>
> >> For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power
> >> supply, platter and display and display measurements, see:
> >>
> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM
> >>
> >> I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder
> >> Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08)
> >>
> >> The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the
> >> controller (RF08) electronics, etc.  (The very first photo shows some
> >> mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely
> >> disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I
> >> recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple
> >> vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos).  There is also a
> >> photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container)
> >> platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel.
> >>
> >> In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components,
> >> and a text file with measurements.
> >>
> >> Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display.  I didn't
> >> want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS.
> >>
> >> JRJ
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >>> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the
> indicator panel,
> >>> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which
> signals are
> >>> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell
> where the
> >>> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not
> >>> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and
> almost
> >>> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right
> swap,
> >>> > there are no fields which span the boundary).
> >>>
> >>> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert:
> >>>
> >>>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt
> >>>
> >>> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we
> see one.
> >>>
> >>> Noel
> >
>

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:02 PM, Diane Bruce  wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> Just the other day, I converted a 9 track tape from the 90s from Ft. 
>> George Meade that involved antenna design software.  It was FORTRAN and 
>> compiled quite nicely under f77.

NEC 2?

I've had a copy of NEC-2, in Fortran, for perhaps 2 decades now.  I also got 
the manual from government archives.  Works nicely.

paul

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 10:17 AM, Paul Koning wrote:



NEC 2?

I've had a copy of NEC-2, in Fortran, for perhaps 2 decades now.  I
also got the manual from government archives.  Works nicely.


No, something called FERM--developed at Lincoln Labs and distributed 
through USG, by all appearances.


--Chuck

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/30/2015 09:35 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:


Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem
to still use Fortran.

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i


Sorry, that URL gets me to a 404.

Just the other day, I converted a 9 track tape from the 90s from Ft. 
George Meade that involved antenna design software.  It was FORTRAN and 
compiled quite nicely under f77.


So not as uncommon as people think, perhaps.

--Chuck

Re: Emulex QD32

[Christian Corti]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:

On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

[...]
AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I 
have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR"

How about HELP or even "?"
I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program.


That's how I found the DIR command. But the HELP menu isn't very helpful 
at that point.


Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the program won't support a 
Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II.


Oh, that was a typo. It actually says this:

B DUA0


  2..1..0..

Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2  MicroVAX II  16-SEP-1985 09:00:00

uEVM>DIR

   START#
FILE NAME  BLOCK#   BLKS  CREATION DATE

---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR




Christian

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Peter Coghlan wrote:

Nah - VCF-Paris is just a decoy to distract the few who might have heard about
the ultra secret VCF-Madrid.


WHY was VCF Berlin kept a secret?

Did Sellam know about it?


I would not have gone to it,
but it still seems surprising that I didn't even hear about it.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Robert Feldman]

>From: "Jerome H. Fine" 
>Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform?
> Jerome Fine
 
>From 
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/:
> 
"250 Khz General Electric 18-bit TTL CPUs, complete with single register 
accumulator and bit-serial access to 2096-word plated-wire RAM"
 
  

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[ben]

On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:

The list seems very quiet to-day.
I have had only one post this morning.
Anybody know why?


Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:

No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...


extinct?  or just too shameful?


Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran.
Porting the old software to newer hardware?
Ben.

RE: Apple II Rev 2 value?

[Brad]

My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it.  Basically I tossed the clone board 
and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer 
basic ROMs) and I think PSU.  PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have 
suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 
2+ style one I have in there now.  Not sure on that.  The keyboard is the 
original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper 
wires.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value?

Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the 
condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original 
datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one.  Infact it may 
only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less.   

Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a 
case or a case with extras.  Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple 
II because the motherboard is missing.  

Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a 
lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. 

Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. 

As for the Rev 2.  In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k.  btw.  Rev 0 
are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition.  Most aren't.  They 
tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard.  If the motherboard is 
replaced they are just a case.   

Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, 
they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time.  I have 
seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went 
for.   You just never know.  

Cheers,
Corey 

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad  wrote:
> 
> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range.  I'm hoping to, over 
> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0.  I've seen Rev 0 
> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish.  Below that seems to be 
> a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc.  Although, 
> no always.  Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still 
> gone for $2500.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking to move up.  My questions (and I realize this is 
> all
> opinion):
> 
> 
> 
> 1)  What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth?  Again it's serial number is
> in the 38000 range, black label.  It was in France and had its 
> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization 
> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of 
> the case was done.  I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic 
> chips.  I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully 
> functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with 
> bad traces.
> 
> 2)  What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is
> in so/so  condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard?  
> Is a Rev 2 anything special?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 
Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Re: Lurker no more...

[Corey Cohen]

I honestly don't remember.  I know Woz sent me instructions on how to do it, 
this was a few years ago.  I've just been cutting and pasting the competed 
signature since then, so I forgot.   Maybe I can dig up the instructions over 
the weekend.  

FYI.  I  just got the daily digest on my other email and it apparently strips 
out the upside down stuff.  

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:27 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Welcome Corey! how  did  you  get the upside down   font  in  the email 
> sig?   Ed#
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> appleco...@optonline.net writes:
> 
> Well I  finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual 
> messages  from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend 
> itself to  posting back.   
> 
> Just wanted to say hi.  
> 
> Cheers,
> Corey
> 
> corey cohen
> uǝɥoɔ  ʎǝɹoɔ

Re: Lurker no more...

[Jules Richardson]

On 10/30/2015 11:21 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:

Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive
individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really
doesn't lend itself to posting back.


The only thing worse than digest mode on a mailing list is having to use a 
web-based forum :-)




Just wanted to say hi.


G'day.

Jules

RE: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
> Sent: 30 October 2015 17:51
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?
> 
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> > Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform?
> > I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN and assembly
> > language, but that was only 50 years ago.
> > There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job at a
> > time.  All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output.
> > But it did work well for that era.
> 
> In 1970, at Goddard Space Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, we
> used FORTRAN on a 7094 with a 360/30 for I/O.   But we also used FORTRAN
> on several 360/9x machines, and sometimes APL on time sharing (selectric
> terminal)
> 
> I wonder when the 7094s finally got retired.

Has anyone actually managed to find this job posting? I had a quick look on
the main Nasa site and also on the JPL site, and couldn't find it at all. I
am curious to read it.

Regards

Rob

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Fred Cisin

> 2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate
> "Computer Science" at UC .. declared, "Assembly language is dead!
> Nobody will ever program in it again.", and shifted their program to
> Scheme/Lisp.
> ..
> assembly language may no longer be a great career path, but there will
> always be need for some levels of hand optimization.

It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students
understand how computers _actually work_, underneath.

There's a semi-famous incident from a couple of decades back at MIT: they
were teaching a programming course in CLU (an "object-based" language which
contributed many ideas to object-oriented programming). So one assignment was
to write an assembler - which required being able to print octal numbers.

So quite a few of the students wrote 'octal clusters' ('cluster' is CLU
jargon for the collection of routines which know-how/are-allowed to operate
on members of a class), which used normal decimal read and write to do
input/output - and had 'octal add' etc routines which took apart two 'octal
numbers' abcdef, stored as the decimal number abcdef, into their constituent
digits, added them together individually, did the carries, and then put it
all back together. (I am not making this up. This really happened.)

Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a
number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little
more about how a computer actually worked.

Noel

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-10-30 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Fred Cisin

 > 2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate
 > "Computer Science" at UC .. declared, "Assembly language is dead!
 > Nobody will ever program in it again.", and shifted their program to
 > Scheme/Lisp.
 > ..
 > assembly language may no longer be a great career path, but there will
 > always be need for some levels of hand optimization.

It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students
understand how computers _actually work_, underneath.

There's a semi-famous incident from a couple of decades back at MIT: they
were teaching a programming course in CLU (an "object-based" language which
contributed many ideas to object-oriented programming). So one assignment was
to write an assembler - which required being able to print octal numbers.

So quite a few of the students wrote 'octal clusters' ('cluster' is CLU
jargon for the collection of routines which know-how/are-allowed to operate
on members of a class), which used normal decimal read and write to do
input/output - and had 'octal add' etc routines which took apart two 'octal
numbers' abcdef, stored as the decimal number abcdef, into their constituent
digits, added them together individually, did the carries, and then put it
all back together. (I am not making this up. This really happened.)

Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a
number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little
more about how a computer actually worked.


Pretty sure this same thing is repeated somewhere with every generation 
of programmers :-)


But I'm not sure why anyone is shocked at "60 year old languages" being 
required. People are constantly telling us to use a FORTY year old 
language for crypto and systems work as if nothing had been learned since.


--Toby




Noel

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
> ...
> Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a
> number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little
> more about how a computer actually worked.

That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was writing a 
document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update correctly.  He 
was tripping over the issue of negative zero.  I told him the answer simply was 
to subtract the complement with end around borrow.  He didn't believe me and 
ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every case.

Sigh.

paul

Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job?

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote:

Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform?
I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN
and assembly language, but that was only 50 years ago.
There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job
at a time.  All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output.
But it did work well for that era.


In 1970, at Goddard Space Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, we 
used FORTRAN on a 7094 with a 360/30 for I/O.   But we also used FORTRAN 
on several 360/9x machines, and sometimes APL on time sharing (selectric 
terminal)


I wonder when the 7094s finally got retired.

Re: The list seems very quiet today

[ben]

On 10/30/2015 11:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote:



On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:39 PM, ben  wrote:

On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod  wrote:

The list seems very quiet to-day.
I have had only one post this morning.
Anybody know why?


Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris?

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote:

No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers...


extinct?  or just too shameful?


Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran.
Porting the old software to newer hardware?


Presumably the Fortran is at the Earth end.  Yes, you could port it, but you 
can't port it if you can't read the original.  And given that you have a 
perfectly good Fortran implementation still available, porting it may not be 
all that useful.  (Now if they were talking Jovial, the answer might be 
different -- though even there you can keep running the original, perhaps in 
emulation.)

paul


I am thinking they want to get rid of all the BIG iron left and go to a 
IBM Pizza box.Ben.