Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Mike Ross: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:53 PM

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

I have one of those:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/typeset/typeset.php

My notes say it's a PA36.  It's not buried too deeply; I could try to find
the nameplate if need be.


Almost right. It's a PA63. 


You are correct, of course.


ID:

http://www.corestore.org/PA63-2.jpg


Mine seems to have a slightly different metal plate, with "0205240" where 
the SN should be:

http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/typeset/PA63.jpg

   Vince 

Re: Have Calcomp 565 plotter - looking for pen mechanism

[Pete Lancashire]

Unless you are willing to make you own, they are very, very rare. Two have
shown up on Ebay in the past 3 maybe 4 years that I'm aware of. I was lucky
I got one that due to its description I was either the only bidder or close
to it. The one that sold recently went for a lot more, $500 or more. My
suggestion decide what your willing to pay and keep your eyes open, If you
in an area that would have been where the plotters would have been used,
start asking around. Someones grandfather took one home or something like
that and it will be in a garage sale for $1.  So put some ad on Craigslist
with pretty much nothing other then some good photos, the owner will not
have a clue what your talking about. Start asking around, etc etc etc.

good luck

-pete

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jack Rubin  wrote:

> I returned from the recent VCF-West with one more item off my ever-shorter
> "must have" list - I am the new owner of a very nice Calcomp 565 drum
> plotter. Even better, I was able to find the perfect shipping container for
> it at Weird Stuff!
>
> Photos here - http://tinyurl.com/calcomp565 .
>
> The only problem, unfortunately a major one, is that it is completely
> lacking the pen mechanism. This is actually a multi-part assembly that
> threads into the carriage on the front rails of the plotter and lifts the
> pen up and down in response to z-axis commands from the controller. It is a
> solenoid that uses the pen as the core and was thus supplied in many
> configurations depending on the kind of pen used. I'd be happy with any
> bits of any configuration if you might have an idea where to find such
> items.
>
> BTW, I'm well aware (and deeply envious!) of the fine work done by Tom
> Mikulic who recreated the entire mechanism from scratch -
> http://tomislavmikulic.com/proj-565.html .
>
> Thanks for any help you can provide,
> Jack
>
>
>

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Glen Slick]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>
> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the
> MVII.
> When I got it this was the configuration:
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory
> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>
> The new configuration is:
>
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>
> I even tried moving the cards:
>
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
> Slot 5 - DHV11
> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 7 - RQDX2
>
> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine
> but not the tape or serial ports.
> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up
> just to check if the board is OK.
> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS
> react to this?
> Doug

Here is one example of how the expected floating CSR address and
vector for a DHV11 will shift depending on whether a system contains 2
MSCP controllers instead of 1:

C:\simh-4.0-Beta--2015-10-16-5c117caa>MicroVAX3900.exe

MicroVAX 3900 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: 5c117caa
sim> boot cpu
Loading boot code from internal ka655x.bin

KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7
Performing normal system tests.
40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..
24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..
08..07..06..05..04..03..
Tests completed.
>>>configure
Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT
Device,Number? help
Devices:
 LPV11KXJ11DLV11J   DZQ11DZV11DFA01
 RLV12TSV05RXV21DRV11W   DRV11B   DPV11
 DMV11DELQADEQNADESQARQDX3KDA50
 RRD50RQC25KFQSA-DISK   TQK50TQK70TU81E
 RV20 KFQSA-TAPE   KMV11IEQ11DHQ11DHV11
 CXA16CXB16CXY08VCB01QVSS LNV11
 LNV21QPSS DSV11ADV11C   AAV11C   AXV11C
 KWV11C   ADV11D   AAV11D   VCB02QDSS DRV11J
 DRQ3BVSV21IBQ01IDV11A   IDV11B   IDV11C
 IDV11D   IAV11A   IAV11B   MIRA ADQ32DTC04
 DESNAIGQ11
Numbers:
 1 to 255, default is 1
Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,1
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760440/300 DHV11

>>>configure
Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT
Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,2
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-760334/300 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760500/310 DHV11

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Jon Elson]

On 08/19/2016 12:36 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:


The MicroVax II is about 30 years old, should I suspect 
the backplane?  How do you clean it?  Should I try another 
CPU card?


My cobbled-together uVAX-II ran continuously from 1986 to 
2007. Sometime in the late 1990s, it started to get flaky.  
It was always backplane-related, devices would become 
inaccessible, and powering down and reseating the boards 
always brought it back.  Every few years, I would pull all 
the boards and vacuum the board side of the backplanes and 
wipe down the board edge fingers with an alcohol-soaked 
paper towel.  The reseating would always clear the trouble 
for several months.


Jon

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 4:55 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:


Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot 
from it and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected 
to a SCSI2SD board.


I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a 
CONFIGURE tool that tells you what set the addresses to for a 
particular collection of options, I need to run that and then check 
that all the devices are set to the proper addresses.


I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is 
not working properly.
To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did 
not mention before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape 
also I think -- have floating CSRS for the second and subsequent 
units, but the first is fixed.  Others, like the DHV11, are all 
floating (including the first unit).


paul


These comments have been very helpful, it has be over 10 years since I 
did these things with VAXes.  It is starting to come back, little by 
little.  Re-visiting the VAX is turning out to be fun, it is somewhat 
like a treasure hunt.


When I run CONFIGURE I will post what the CSR's should be and what I 
had them set to.


Doug


Here are the results:

Before - the CSR, VEC were set as follows

VIKING MSCP Disk controller : CSR 772150 VEC 154
RQDX2 MSCP Disk controller : CSR 760334 VEC 300
DHV11 Serial Mux :   CSR 760460 VEC 300
TQK50 TMSCP controller :CSR 774500 VEC 260

After -

 $ run sys$system:sysgen

SYSGEN>  CONFIG
DEVICE> uda,2
DEVICE> tu81
DEVICE> dhv11
DEVICE>^Z

Device: UDA Name: PUA   CSR: 772150   Vector: 154 Support: yes
Device: TU81 Name: PTA   CSR: 774500   Vector: 260 
Support: yes

Device: UDA Name: PUB   CSR: 760334*  Vector: 300* Support: yes
Device: DHV11 Name: TXA   CSR: 760500*  Vector: 310* 
Support: yes


SYSGEN>  EXIT

After changing the CSR and VEC of the DHV11 and rebooting :

$ show edev

Device  Device   ErrorVolume Free  Trans Mnt

 Name   Status   Count Label Blocks Count Cnt

DUA0:   Online   0
DUA1:   Mounted  0  VAXVMSV055 1954644   126   1

DUB0:   Online   0
DUB1:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
FTA0:   Offline  0
OPA0:   Online   0
TXA0:   Online   0
TXA1:   Online   0
TXA2:   Online   0
TXA3:   Online   0
TXA4:   Online   0
TXA5:   Online   0
TXA6:   Online   0
TXA7:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1
WSA0:   Offline  0

 $
The TK50 still does not show up, I think it is because the tape drive is 
not functioning (can't move the lever to allow a tape to be loaded).
However, I do have functional RX50 floppys, just need some media.  I 
have a couple spare TK50's and will try those to see what happens.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 12:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:


...

It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the MVII.
When I got it this was the configuration:
Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory
Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
Slot 4 - DHV11
Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
Slot 6 - RQDX2

The new configuration is:

Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
Slot 4 - DHV11
Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
Slot 6 - RQDX2

I even tried moving the cards:

Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
Slot 5 - DHV11
Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
Slot 7 - RQDX2

In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine 
but not the tape or serial ports.
Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
just to check if the board is OK.
If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
react to this?

So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?

If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR position.  
DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, so if you 
added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches of those two 
cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in my earlier mail 
today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not affect that; device 
identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to physical card position.

paul


Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot 
from it and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a 
SCSI2SD board.


I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE 
tool that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular 
collection of options, I need to run that and then check that all the 
devices are set to the proper addresses.


I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not 
working properly.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot from it 
and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a SCSI2SD board.

I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE tool 
that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular collection of 
options, I need to run that and then check that all the devices are set to the 
proper addresses.

I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not working 
properly.

To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did not mention 
before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape also I think -- have 
floating CSRS for the second and subsequent units, but the first is fixed.  
Others, like the DHV11, are all floating (including the first unit).

paul


These comments have been very helpful, it has be over 10 years since I 
did these things with VAXes.  It is starting to come back, little by 
little.  Re-visiting the VAX is turning out to be fun, it is somewhat 
like a treasure hunt.


When I run CONFIGURE I will post what the CSR's should be and what I had 
them set to.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
> On 8/19/2016 12:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>>> 
 ...
>>> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the 
>>> MVII.
>>> When I got it this was the configuration:
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory
>>> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
>>> Slot 4 - DHV11
>>> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
>>> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> The new configuration is:
>>> 
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
>>> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
>>> Slot 4 - DHV11
>>> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
>>> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> I even tried moving the cards:
>>> 
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
>>> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
>>> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
>>> Slot 5 - DHV11
>>> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
>>> Slot 7 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just 
>>> fine but not the tape or serial ports.
>>> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
>>> just to check if the board is OK.
>>> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
>>> react to this?
>> So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?
>> 
>> If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR 
>> position.  DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, 
>> so if you added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches 
>> of those two cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in 
>> my earlier mail today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not 
>> affect that; device identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to 
>> physical card position.
>> 
>>  paul
>> 
>> 
> Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot from it 
> and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a SCSI2SD 
> board.
> 
> I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE tool 
> that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular collection of 
> options, I need to run that and then check that all the devices are set to 
> the proper addresses.
> 
> I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not working 
> properly.

To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did not mention 
before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape also I think -- have 
floating CSRS for the second and subsequent units, but the first is fixed.  
Others, like the DHV11, are all floating (including the first unit).

paul

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Eric Smith]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Steven M Jones  wrote:
> Models Display  Resolution  Planes  Processor  Coprocessor
> -- ---  --  --  -  ---
> 700/X Grayscale  19" 1024x768 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz
> 700/X VGA Color  14"  640x480 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz
> 700/X Hi-Res Color   16" 1024x768 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz

Before anyone gets too excited about the blistering speed of the 60
MHz TMS34010, it should be noted that each TMS34010 instruction cycle
takes eight clock cycles, so the instruction cycle rate is only 7.5
MHz, and of course many instructions take multiple instruction cycles,
so the instruction rate is even lower.  However, since it has a
graphics-optimized instruction set, it was still able to do some
things noticeably faster than the 16 MHz 80186 would have.

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Mike Ross]

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Vincent Slyngstad
 wrote:
> From: Mike Ross: Friday, August 19, 2016 1:42 AM
>>
>> OK I still can't get at the box; it's apparently buried deep. So can't
>> confirm what the label calls it. But here it is and the panel on the
>> front:
>>
>> http://corestore.org/Decbox.jpg
>
>
> I have one of those:
> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/typeset/typeset.php
>
> My notes say it's a PA36.  It's not buried too deeply; I could try to find
> the nameplate if need be.

Almost right. It's a PA63. Official description "6-Channel
Reader/Punch Multiplexer"


Indicator panel:

http://www.corestore.org/PA63-1.jpg

ID:

http://www.corestore.org/PA63-2.jpg

Noel feel free to snag that for the pdp-8 section!

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Noel Chiappa]

> Oooh, thanks ever so much for turning that up!!!

OK, I have added them to the page - I lost a little resolution rotating them
to be level, but there's still more than enough to recogize them, and mostly
read them.

> So that mystery panel seems to be a general panel, more associated with
> the CPU than anything else; one line does seem to be the reader, but
> one quadrant is the KT15 memory management, one is the KA15 priority
> interrupt system, and there's general CPU/system stuff throughout

With that, I think we have most of the PDP-15 panels (although the VT15 image
is still pretty crummy). That leaves only these two:

  http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DEC/15_05.jpg

although that looks like early marketing material, so perhaps those panels neve
made it into production machines?

I wonder if one of them is a BD15 (whatever that might be) - or if that's
the name for the CPU panel (above)?

Noel

Have Calcomp 565 plotter - looking for pen mechanism

[Jack Rubin]

I returned from the recent VCF-West with one more item off my ever-shorter 
"must have" list - I am the new owner of a very nice Calcomp 565 drum plotter. 
Even better, I was able to find the perfect shipping container for it at Weird 
Stuff!

Photos here - http://tinyurl.com/calcomp565 .

The only problem, unfortunately a major one, is that it is completely lacking 
the pen mechanism. This is actually a multi-part assembly that threads into the 
carriage on the front rails of the plotter and lifts the pen up and down in 
response to z-axis commands from the controller. It is a solenoid that uses the 
pen as the core and was thus supplied in many configurations depending on the 
kind of pen used. I'd be happy with any bits of any configuration if you might 
have an idea where to find such items. 

BTW, I'm well aware (and deeply envious!) of the fine work done by Tom Mikulic 
who recreated the entire mechanism from scratch - 
http://tomislavmikulic.com/proj-565.html .

Thanks for any help you can provide,
Jack

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Mike Ross

>> It seems to be always near the CPU ... there are only a few
>> possibilities: BA15 (paper tape controller), DW15A (bus converter),
>> KE15 (extended arithmetic), MM15-A and MK15-A (memory). It might also
>> be a BD15 ... since that was listed as having an insert for it.

It turns out the KE15 registers are available on the main console, with a
setting on the rotary 'select registers to display' switch.

> I'm not aware of any memory indicator panels associated with
> any pdp-15 configuration

I was just being complete/thorough... :-)

> Bingo!
> BA15 & TC15 (and many other pics)

Oooh, thanks ever so much for turning that up!!!

So that mystery panel seems to be a general panel, more associated with the

but one quadrant is the KT15 memory management, one is the KA15 priority
interrupt system, and there's general CPU/system stuff throughout (memory
parity, power fail, instruction register).

I'm not sure what it's formal name might be (I don't think it can be BA15,
given all the CPU stuff that's in it). Very odd that the User's Handbook
doesn't cover it when it covers the KT15, the KA15, etc, etc; the print set
might be informative (now that I can see what's on that panel).

Noel

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Jerry Kemp]

similar story, many lifetimes ago in the mid 1990's (1994-1996).

I was supporting a small ISP in a (US side) border town with T1 Internet 
connectivity.  I was dialing in to provide remote support using an HP Vectra 
running Solaris 2.5 (not 2.5.1 yet :( ) with a US Robotics 28.8 modem.  No SSH.


I never attempted a full desktop, but several times I recall running X11 based 
apps, exporting the Display to my local x86 Solaris PC.


It was always slow, but once loaded and running, it was enough to get the task I 
needed complete.


None of that would ever fly today.  or even a decade ago.

Jerry


On 08/19/16 05:32 PM, Mouse wrote:

While I wouldn't want to use such a combination over, say, 1200bps dialup, i$


I decided to try this.

I just set up a SLIP link between my main desktop head (a
SPARCstation-20) and a handy peecee, running at 9600/8/N/1 on each end.
I then sshed through the SLIP link to the peecee and started a terminal
emulator, displaying on the ssh-forwarded X display.  (My own terminal
emulator, running with just base X fonts - in particular, with
server-side font rendering.)

It's no speed demon, but it is entirely usable.  I've had less usable
ssh sessions between cities when the inter-city links were heavily
loaded.

This is without even LBX, which I would expect would improve
performance substantially but which has proven resistant to use.  (I've
been unable to get anything but connection rejections out of it; I
don't know why, but don't want to hare off on chasing after that with
an email pending.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
  X  Against HTML   mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Steven M Jones]

On 08/19/2016 11:08, Chris Hanson wrote:
>
> Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based
> 8086/8088 systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics?
> Or was that strictly a 286-or-better thing, given the overall
> constraints of the 8086 architecture?

I realize this pretty divergent from your question, but... ISTR there
was a barebones X terminal that used the 8086, but I can't find it via
Google. I got to prod at one on some occasion, it was pretty much a joke.

Don't recall what might have been under the covers handling the video,
but the theme was low-spec. Contrast to the HP 700/X terminals used a
combination of 34010 and 80186:

Models Display  Resolution  Planes  Processor  Coprocessor
-- ---  --  --  -  ---
700/X Grayscale  19" 1024x768 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz
700/X VGA Color  14"  640x480 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz
700/X Hi-Res Color   16" 1024x768 834010/60MHz 80186/16MHz

( From SunFLASH Vol 26 #9, Feb 1991 )

--S.

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Mike Ross]

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 4:36 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> > From: Al Kossow
>
> > we have one
> > ...
> > i'll request access to it to shoot the panel
>
> Excellent! That's currently the worst image of all of the ones on the page,
> so a good one will really count. Thanks!
>
> (Although I am a bit curious at to why the Museum's Web site doesn't offer
> the option of larger images? If so, that would have been all I needed - the
> existing image is square on from the front, so if larger, that would have
> been perfect.)
>
> I anyone has a TC15, the existing picture of that one is also pretty bad,
> (hint, hint :-).
>
> > there's a cool picture of a PDP-15 here:
> > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/ral/orig/r12588.jpg
>
> Yeah, I think that image (definitely that machine) was discussed in a prior
> message in this thread. That image shows the RF15 on the left, the VT15 on
> the right, and that one in the middle is the unidentified mystery one we have
> a bunch of images of.

Bingo!

BA15 & TC15 (and many other pics)

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/102693653878217706883/albums/6273551519661666817?cfem=1

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Mouse]

> While I wouldn't want to use such a combination over, say, 1200bps dialup, i$

I decided to try this.

I just set up a SLIP link between my main desktop head (a
SPARCstation-20) and a handy peecee, running at 9600/8/N/1 on each end.
I then sshed through the SLIP link to the peecee and started a terminal
emulator, displaying on the ssh-forwarded X display.  (My own terminal
emulator, running with just base X fonts - in particular, with
server-side font rendering.)

It's no speed demon, but it is entirely usable.  I've had less usable
ssh sessions between cities when the inter-city links were heavily
loaded.

This is without even LBX, which I would expect would improve
performance substantially but which has proven resistant to use.  (I've
been unable to get anything but connection rejections out of it; I
don't know why, but don't want to hare off on chasing after that with
an email pending.)

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Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Glen Slick]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Chris Hanson
 wrote:
>>
>> The only thing that comes to mind is DESQview/X, and IIRC, that required a 
>> minimum of a 386.
>
> There was plenty more than DESQview/X, and there were X11 servers that ran on 
> 286.
>

There was PC DECwindows which ran on a 286 system on top of a Rational
Systems DOS extender, and on a 386 or better system on top of a Phar
Lap DOS extender. Those were based on ports of X11R2 - X11R4 source in
the 1988-1989 time frame. By then there was no thought of trying to
fit any sort of implementation in a real mode 8088 system.

(Working on PC DECwindows was my first real job out of college)

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Chris Hanson]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Zane Healy  wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Chris Hanson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based 8086/8088 
>> systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics? Or was that strictly 
>> a 286-or-better thing, given the overall constraints of the 8086 
>> architecture?
>> 
>> (There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I 
>> expect black & white X11 over a serial link would not be *that* bad…)
>> 
>> -- Chris
>> 
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind is DESQview/X, and IIRC, that required a 
> minimum of a 386.  

There was plenty more than DESQview/X, and there were X11 servers that ran on 
286.

> I tend to think that X11 over serial would be nothing short of nightmarish.  
> After all, that’s why we have VNC.

I'm very specifically talking about pure black & white, with server-side 
bitmap-only fonts, and also (though I didn't originally say so) with an X 
client itself written in the 1980s that only really bare-bones X11R3 or so and 
only uses black & white. And running on a workstation of that era, of course.

While I wouldn't want to use such a combination over, say, 1200bps dialup, it 
doesn't seem like it would be utterly awful via a direct connection at whatever 
the serial port on a PC with an NEC V20 (8086-compatible and around 8 MHz) 
could handle reliably.

  -- Chris

Re: Front Panel update - Catalog

[Rod Smallwood]

On 19/08/2016 22:13, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:

On 19 August 2016 at 10:31, Rod Smallwood  wrote:

Now for the fun version. How do I do the same sort of thing but with DEC
hardware?


You mean host a website with DEC hardware?

With a PDP-11:

Johnny Billquist has a lovely TCP/IP package for RSX-11/M+ which includes an 
HTTP server if I recall correctly.
I haven't used it (because reasons) but I think 2.11 BSD might have an HTTP 
server too.

With a VAX:

VMS, later versions provide all the stuff you need to host a website, though 
I've not set one up to do so.
OpenBSD 5.8 (the last VAX version) also provides all the servering that you 
need.
NetBSD is also a thing.

With an Alpha:

VMS
OpenBSD still supports Alpha in the current versions
NetBSD, again


Cheers,
Christian




WASD perhaps?

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Zane Healy]

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Chris Hanson  wrote:
> 
> Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based 8086/8088 
> systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics? Or was that strictly 
> a 286-or-better thing, given the overall constraints of the 8086 architecture?
> 
> (There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I 
> expect black & white X11 over a serial link would not be *that* bad…)
> 
>  -- Chris
> 

The only thing that comes to mind is DESQview/X, and IIRC, that required a 
minimum of a 386.  

I tend to think that X11 over serial would be nothing short of nightmarish.  
After all, that’s why we have VNC.

Zane

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/19/2016 01:28 PM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:

> There were 2-3 versions.  One was SCSI, the next QIC-02, and the
> last, some raw interface called "BASIC."I've both a SCSI and a
> QIC-02 version.

That figures--they did a similar thing with the floppy drives--the Teac
SCSI floppy is little more than a standard floppy with a SCSI controller
board bolted on.

Just going by Al's document.

I wonder if the "BASIC" interface is a simple QIC-36.

--Chuck

Re: Front Panel update - Catalog

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 19 August 2016 at 10:31, Rod Smallwood  wrote:
> Now for the fun version. How do I do the same sort of thing but with DEC
> hardware?
>
You mean host a website with DEC hardware?

With a PDP-11:
> Johnny Billquist has a lovely TCP/IP package for RSX-11/M+ which includes an 
> HTTP server if I recall correctly.
> I haven't used it (because reasons) but I think 2.11 BSD might have an HTTP 
> server too.

With a VAX:
> VMS, later versions provide all the stuff you need to host a website, though 
> I've not set one up to do so.
> OpenBSD 5.8 (the last VAX version) also provides all the servering that you 
> need.
> NetBSD is also a thing.

With an Alpha:
> VMS
> OpenBSD still supports Alpha in the current versions
> NetBSD, again


Cheers,
Christian



-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[j...@cimmeri.com]

Al, you don't happen to have this 
anywhere, do you?


"Small Computer System Interface: An 
Overview and a Developer's Guide"


Company:Digital Equipment Corporation
Part:   EK-SCSIS-DK



-John

On 8/19/2016 1:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

apparently it isn't SCSI

http://oldcomputer.info/media/teac/index.htm

On 8/19/16 11:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/19/2016 09:24 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:


Where might I find information on how to form SCSI command data
blocks so as to try the above commands?   I sent just an "01" to the
TEAC MT-2ST, and it did rewind.. but did not react to any of the
other above commands just by sending single bytes.

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 8/19/2016 2:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/19/2016 11:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

apparently it isn't SCSI

http://oldcomputer.info/media/teac/index.htm

But the product spec about says (top of PDF page 6):

Interface:  In compliance with SCSI ANSI X3.131-1986

..and the remainder of the document certainly would seem to imply SCSI,
right down to the "SCSI ID" selections.

--Chuck



There were 2-3 versions.  One was SCSI, 
the next QIC-02, and the last, some raw 
interface called "BASIC."I've both a 
SCSI and a QIC-02 version.


- John

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/19/2016 11:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> apparently it isn't SCSI
> 
> http://oldcomputer.info/media/teac/index.htm

But the product spec about says (top of PDF page 6):

Interface:  In compliance with SCSI ANSI X3.131-1986

..and the remainder of the document certainly would seem to imply SCSI,
right down to the "SCSI ID" selections.

--Chuck

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Mouse]

> (There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I ex$

If the serial link runs at a relatively high data rate (eg, 115200) or
LBX support is in use and the data rate is at least medium (eg, 19200),
probably.

If not...well, it depends on how patient you are, I suppose, but _I_
wouldn't want to have to use it.

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Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[Al Kossow]

apparently it isn't SCSI

http://oldcomputer.info/media/teac/index.htm

On 8/19/16 11:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 08/19/2016 09:24 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
> 
>> Where might I find information on how to form SCSI command data
>> blocks so as to try the above commands?   I sent just an "01" to the
>> TEAC MT-2ST, and it did rewind.. but did not react to any of the
>> other above commands just by sending single bytes.
>>

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/19/2016 09:24 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:

> Where might I find information on how to form SCSI command data
> blocks so as to try the above commands?   I sent just an "01" to the
> TEAC MT-2ST, and it did rewind.. but did not react to any of the
> other above commands just by sending single bytes.
> 
> Oddly, the OnStream drive did *not* accept an 01 command.
> 
> Thank you- -John

John, what's your working OS platform?  For fooling with SCSI, the ASPI
interface of MS-DOS is pretty straightforward--and easy to use.

http://ftp.isu.edu.tw/pub/Hardware/ADAPTEC/adaptec/aspi_dos.txt

..and if you goof up, just hit the RESET button and you're back in
business in a few seconds.

A CDB's a CDB, so whatever you learn on DOS can easily be transfered to
other OS interfaces (SPTI, SG, CAM, etc.).

As far as tape-drive specific commands, there's always an ANSI T10
document, but that's like trying to learn about parking regulations from
a university law library--it's probably all there, but you'll have to
plow your way through a lot of stuff.  FWIW, T10 doesn't refer to the
things as "tape drives", but "sequential access devices".  Here's a T10
draft:

http://hackipedia.org/Hardware/SCSI/Stream%20Commands/SCSI-3%20Stream%20Commands.pdf

By far and away, the best place to learn practical SCSI interfacing is
from vendor's manuals themselves.  One I found particularly useful was
the HP 35470 DDS drive OEM product manual.  Very clear writing style.

Bitsavers is full of product manuals detailing exactly what and how a
product supports.

--Chuck

X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Chris Hanson]

Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based 8086/8088 
systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics? Or was that strictly a 
286-or-better thing, given the overall constraints of the 8086 architecture?

(There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I 
expect black & white X11 over a serial link would not be *that* bad…)

  -- Chris

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 6:04 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote:

[snip]



Device  Device   Error
  Name   Status   Count
MPA0:   Offline  0
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1

I swear that when I first installed VMS the DHV11 ports showed up in 
the show dev list on the MicroVax II.
The TQK50 controller (I have 2) were put into a MicroVax 4000 and 
that Vax saw each board, so I don't think the boards are bad.




It's not clear to me what issue you are reporting regarding the TQK50
controllers.  Are you saying that VMS is not seeing them because you 
don't

see any MUA devices listed?

PUA0 and PUB0 are your two disk controllers.  Some googling suggests 
that PTA0
is a tape controller.  (Google also suggests that one error at startup 
is to

be expected for PT/PU devices.)

Having PTA0 listed suggests that VMS is seeing the tape controller but 
not

seeing any actual tape drives attached to the controller.  Maybe the tape
drive or drives are not correctly attached to the controller or are not
powered?

(Don't worry about MPA0 - this is a virtual device expected to be absent
in VMS V5.5-2 and present in VMS V7.2.  It is not related to tape or 
serial

controllers.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


I removed the DHV11 and checked the switch settings and they are all set 
to the factory default.


This DHV11 was put into the MV4000 backpland and VMS 7.2 booted. Show 
Device lists  TXA0: thru TXA7.


The MicroVax II is about 30 years old, should I suspect the backplane?  
How do you clean it?  Should I try another CPU card?


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the 
> MVII.
> When I got it this was the configuration:
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory
> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
> 
> The new configuration is:
> 
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
> 
> I even tried moving the cards:
> 
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
> Slot 5 - DHV11
> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 7 - RQDX2
> 
> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine 
> but not the tape or serial ports.
> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
> just to check if the board is OK.
> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
> react to this?

So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?

If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR position.  
DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, so if you 
added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches of those two 
cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in my earlier mail 
today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not affect that; device 
identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to physical card position.

paul

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Al Kossow

> we have one
> ...
> i'll request access to it to shoot the panel

Excellent! That's currently the worst image of all of the ones on the page,
so a good one will really count. Thanks!

(Although I am a bit curious at to why the Museum's Web site doesn't offer
the option of larger images? If so, that would have been all I needed - the
existing image is square on from the front, so if larger, that would have
been perfect.)

I anyone has a TC15, the existing picture of that one is also pretty bad,
(hint, hint :-).

> there's a cool picture of a PDP-15 here:
> http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/ral/orig/r12588.jpg

Yeah, I think that image (definitely that machine) was discussed in a prior
message in this thread. That image shows the RF15 on the left, the VT15 on
the right, and that one in the middle is the unidentified mystery one we have
a bunch of images of.

Noel

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Adrian Graham]

On 19/08/2016 09:56, "Peter Coghlan"  wrote:

>>> 
>>> Does Autogen recognize new hardware?
>>> 
>> Yes, definitely.  Some older devices have switches (or even
>> soldered jumpers) to set the CSR address.  If some of these
>> are wrong, it could mess up the automatic address assignment
>> of later MSCP hardware.
>> 
> 
> Not exactly.
> 
> VMS automatically looks for and initialises I/O devices at startup
> time. (There are exceptions to this but these do not come into
> play in this particular situation.)
> 
> Autogen is another thing entirely.  It is a tool which you run
> manually to set system parameters.  You don't have to run autogen
> to pick up changes in your I/O setup.  You just have to have your
> device configured the way VMS expects them to be and VMS will find
> them when you boot.

It won't if you do a minimum/conversational boot (STARTUP_P1 set to "MIN"),
devices won't be discovered unless the STARTUP CONFIGURE process runs. After
a minimum boot you need to MC SYSGEN AUTO ALL/LOG to pick up devices. Or
just do a full boot.

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Are old SCSI tape drives not all created equal?

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 8/17/2016 6:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/17/2016 02:59 PM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:


Hi, Chuck.  Excellent question -- and they do respond per your
minimum, but beyond that, I'm not sure.  When a drive wouldn't work,
I only thought to check for unit ready, unit identify, and to see
what would happen with a START or STOP unit command.

Even the Teac MT-2ST would respond to those 3 (for the START or STOP
command, it retensions the entire tape).   Interestingly, the Teac
also doesn't provide a unit name like all the others do eg. "ARCHIVE
PYTHON etc..."   It just shows up as a blank during bootup on a PC
with an Adaptec SCSI card.  This lack of name seems to make it
invisible to Windows (XP) ASPI.

I have MSDOS software than allows one to issue direct SCSI commands,
but doing that is beyond my present know-how.

Well, that's all good.  SCSI tape covers a lot of ground--from 9 track
1/2" open-reel drives and includes various technologies, from simple
DCxxx QIC carts, to DDS, SLT, DLT...  All have their peculiarities.

For example, some permit rewriting of blocks; others put this strictly
off-limits.  Lots of features are vendor-optional, which include things
such as partitioned data sets and robot auto-loaders.  Read-after-write
verification is optional (but is a good thing, particularly if the drive
firmware includes recovery by erase-and-rewrite.

Linux can be pretty decent about a one-size fits all and has several
optional packages that people have submitted, including the st toolkit.

If you can program C, I might have some DOS I/O library functions that
may interest you.

Generally speaking, the "safe, always there" commands are INQUIRY
(0x12), TEST UNIT READY (0x00), REWIND (0x01), REQUEST SENSE (0x03),
READ(6) (0x08), WRITE(6) (0x0a)  WRITE FILEMARKS (0x10), MODE SENSE
(0x1a), MODE SELECT (0x15), UNLOAD (0x1b) and perhaps SPACE (0x11).


Chuck,

  Where might I find information on how to form SCSI command data blocks so as to try the 
above commands?   I sent just an "01" to the TEAC MT-2ST, and it did rewind.. 
but did not react to any of the other above commands just by sending single bytes.

  Oddly, the OnStream drive did *not* accept an 01 command.

Thank you-
-John



Of course, commands such as MODE SENSE, MODE SELECT and REQUEST SENSE
have variable implementations.  Status for a given condition isn't
guaranteed to be the same across devices; for instance on the Qualstar
SCSI half-inch drives like to return a record of zero length instead of
setting the "filemark hit"  status on a read operation.

Generally speaking, however, as long as you stick to the above list and
the simplest options, you'll be good with anything.

--Chuck

SWTPC GT-6144

[Brad H]

Just posting this here in case it reaches different eyes than the forums.  I 
had an epiphany yesterday and realized someone on ebay had a GT-6144 as part of 
an overpriced auction for a Digital Group system.  They actually agreed to 
separate it and I will have it in my hands within a couple of weeks.  I was 
wondering how rare these are?  SWTPC stuff seems to be pretty scarce on ebay 
generally.
I'm wondering if any of you have ever used one of these, esp. in conjunction 
with a SWTPC system?  Wondering how much grief I have to get into to hook one 
up and get it working.  I know they require their own power supply.. I'm 
thinking I can use the spare P-97 I have or a spare 6800 PS.  But I'm leery of 
modding my original CT1024 heavily.  Might be time to build up my third one.
Getting pretty close to having this 6800 all kitted out.. just need the PR40 
and AC30 and we are there I think. :)


Sent from my Samsung device

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> Does Autogen recognize new hardware?
>
Yes, definitely.  Some older devices have switches (or even 
soldered jumpers) to set the CSR address.  If some of these 
are wrong, it could mess up the automatic address assignment 
of later MSCP hardware.




Not exactly.

VMS automatically looks for and initialises I/O devices at startup
time. (There are exceptions to this but these do not come into
play in this particular situation.)

Autogen is another thing entirely.  It is a tool which you run
manually to set system parameters.  You don't have to run autogen
to pick up changes in your I/O setup.  You just have to have your
device configured the way VMS expects them to be and VMS will find
them when you boot.

In the case of later technology such as PCI, you can pretty much
plug a board into any slot and VMS will find it with no further
thought required.  In the case of Qbus / Unibus, there may be
settings on the board which have to be changed depending on what
other board are present and what order they are in before VMS can
correctly find them.  Wrong settings on or the absence or failure
of one board or the presence of an unexpected board can all prevent
VMS from finding other boards.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Front Panel update - Catalog

[Rod Smallwood]

On 18/08/2016 14:56, Rod Smallwood wrote:



On 18/08/2016 14:25, Jonathan Katz wrote:

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Rod Smallwood
 wrote:

Whats an Etsy?


on-line storefront for artisan stuff, low-volume stuff.

This is my friend's store for homemade portraits and the link:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/cordialkitten

Here's something that is kind of interesting:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/94667084/usb-typewriter-computer-keyboard-black 



I assume you can just register and set up shop there. I don't think
the overhead is too bad. You just upload some photos of your panels,
price them, set the quantity (or build to order) and you're done.



Good grief a old typewriter with a display!!!

Rod

Well I have a box to put the catalog on and  ubuntu server boots and 
apache runs.


Now for the fun version. How do I do the same sort of thing but with DEC 
hardware?

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Mike Ross: Friday, August 19, 2016 1:42 AM

OK I still can't get at the box; it's apparently buried deep. So can't
confirm what the label calls it. But here it is and the panel on the
front:

http://corestore.org/Decbox.jpg


I have one of those:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/typeset/typeset.php

My notes say it's a PA36.  It's not buried too deeply; I could try to find 
the nameplate if need be.


   Vince 

RE: SWTPC 6800

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: 19 August 2016 13:39
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800
> 
> > If you have two serial devices on the same line and one is just
> > listening while you work with the other, *can* that work, or would it
> > just confuse things?
> 
> It depends on what you mean by "the same line".
> 
> For ease of language here, I'm going to assume that the devices are a
> computer, C, and two terminals, T1 and T2.
> 
> If you connect all the pins, it will work fine for the signals that T1 and
T2 are
> driving to the same state.  Signals driven to opposite states may register
as
> being in one of the two states or they may fall into the undefined
> intermediate zone (between -3V and +3V, IIRC), depending on the voltages
> T1 and T2 are trying to drive them to and the exact impedances of the
> drivers.  (It shouldn't fry anything, though; one really nice feature of
RS-232C
> is that the spec requires that any pin or combination of pins can be
shorted
> together and/or to any voltage source within the allowed range (-25V to
> +25V, IIRC) indefinitely without damage.  I'm not sure this applies to
ground
> pins, though; it certainly doesn't in practice - I've seen ground loops.)
> 
> However, the terminal-driven data line (the one that T1 and T2 use to send
> to C) is one of those signals.  I would suggest using a breakout box, or
two
> connectors wired by hand with that signal omitted, to isolate C from one
of
> the two terminals on that pin.  (I would actually go as far as to connect
only
> two pins, signal ground and C-to-T data, to one of the two terminals.)  It
will
> mean you can't type on both T1 and T2 (or, rather, typing will be ignored
on
> one of them); if you want that to work, you will need at least a few
active
> components between them - two diodes and a pullup resistor strikes me as
> the bare minimum, and even then you may have to play with the resistor
> value to get the voltages within the correct ranges.
> 
> Another nice feature of RS-232C is that it is electrically very simple.
> You can throw together serial-line stuff with alligator clip leads and
discrete
> components like diodes and resistors.  You don't have to worry about
things
> like modulation schemes and lower-level protocols, the way you do with
> things like USB or Ethernet.

If you feel really lazy you can get serial switches in both 9 and 25-pin
varieties for almost less than the parts...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131887801860 

Dave
G4UGM

> 
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Re: SWTPC 6800

[Mouse]

> If you have two serial devices on the same line and one is just
> listening while you work with the other, *can* that work, or would it
> just confuse things?

It depends on what you mean by "the same line".

For ease of language here, I'm going to assume that the devices are a
computer, C, and two terminals, T1 and T2.

If you connect all the pins, it will work fine for the signals that T1
and T2 are driving to the same state.  Signals driven to opposite
states may register as being in one of the two states or they may fall
into the undefined intermediate zone (between -3V and +3V, IIRC),
depending on the voltages T1 and T2 are trying to drive them to and the
exact impedances of the drivers.  (It shouldn't fry anything, though;
one really nice feature of RS-232C is that the spec requires that any
pin or combination of pins can be shorted together and/or to any
voltage source within the allowed range (-25V to +25V, IIRC)
indefinitely without damage.  I'm not sure this applies to ground pins,
though; it certainly doesn't in practice - I've seen ground loops.)

However, the terminal-driven data line (the one that T1 and T2 use to
send to C) is one of those signals.  I would suggest using a breakout
box, or two connectors wired by hand with that signal omitted, to
isolate C from one of the two terminals on that pin.  (I would actually
go as far as to connect only two pins, signal ground and C-to-T data,
to one of the two terminals.)  It will mean you can't type on both T1
and T2 (or, rather, typing will be ignored on one of them); if you want
that to work, you will need at least a few active components between
them - two diodes and a pullup resistor strikes me as the bare minimum,
and even then you may have to play with the resistor value to get the
voltages within the correct ranges.

Another nice feature of RS-232C is that it is electrically very simple.
You can throw together serial-line stuff with alligator clip leads and
discrete components like diodes and resistors.  You don't have to worry
about things like modulation schemes and lower-level protocols, the way
you do with things like USB or Ethernet.

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Re: Beaten by VT100 PSU.

[Mattis Lind]

>
> A line of thought for consideration, with the usual disclaimer: I've seen
> these (VT100) supplies before but I haven't had to repair one,
> the following is based only on a cursory purview of the schematic.
>
> Let's look at some of the design nature of the supply.
>
> All the outputs extract their energy from the main switching transformer
> (T1 here).
> The drive for T1 (the primary driver) however, is controlled only by the
> +5 regulation, that is, T1 is inside only the +5 regulation feedback loop.
> This is typical of many multi-output computer switching supplies.
>
> An increased load on the +12 output must extract more energy from T1, but
> the +12 output has no means to directly increase the primary drive into T1
> as it doesn't have a control line into that regulation loop.
> Instead, through the interaction of the magnetic fields in the T1 windings
> the additional extracted energy for +12 lowers what the +5 output can get
> out of T1,
> so the +5 regulation loop kicks in and tells the primary drivers to
> increase the power into T1 till the +5 is happy again, the +12 now being
> happy too.
>
> In consequence, there may be a minimum load requirements on the output of
> the major regulation loop (+5 here) or a relationship (ratio) between the
> output
> load demands to allow the outputs to function properly.
>

There is a minimum load requirement. 1.5A on the +5V and 1A on the +12V.
The basic product should consume 2.5A  and 1.8 A respectively. Adding the
AVO option which is supposed to consume 1.1A solves the problem.


>
> The preceding accounts for why an increased load on the +5 output can
> affect the +12, and cause the problem to go away.
>
> Let's hypothesize that something in the +12 switcher is 'weak', say the
> gain of the +12 switching transistor (Q8) has fallen below design
> requirements.
> When the +5 is lightly loaded, for some given demand on the +12 output, Q8
> can't conduct enough energy into the +12 storage inductor (L1) to
> maintain the +12 in the time it has to do so, because the low +5 demand
> has the T1 drive down to a narrow switching pulse.
> (Note that the reason the +12 switcher is synchronised to the +5 switcher
> is so that Q8 'knows' when to extract energy from T1 to push into L1.)
>
> As the load is increased on the +5 output, the +5 regulation widens the T1
> drive pulse to supply it and now Q8, though weak, has more time to pass
> sufficient
> energy into L1 for the +12 output.
>
> The 'ripple' you are seeing is not 'capacitive' ripple as would result
> from inadequate filter caps - it's the wrong waveshape (aside from the
> wrong frequency).
> I haven't thought out a full explanation but I suspect it's an oscillation
> set up by the load demand and an (inadequate) corrective response attempt
> by the +12 regulation.
>

Agreed. As you say the shape of the ripple is not caused something that is
charged. It is more like a half sinus.

>
> Note I'm not saying Q8 is bad, go replace it; I'm just trying to describe
> how these functional parts interact, to account for (some of) the behaviour
> you're seeing,
> there are other parts of the +12 switcher that could produce the scenario,
> like limited base drive into Q8, or pulse width or phase issues around the
> +12 555 monostable.
> Something may have slipped out of tolerance and upset the design limits
> for the output relationship mentioned above.
>

Thank you Brent for this! Very well thought through and well described. It
is inline what I have been thinking as well since checking all the caps,
there are only six aluminium electrolytics, gave nothing. The two on the
input  were in perfect shape. The ones at the output were fine as well.

Something is out of tolerance. Yes. Maybe I can replace a few things to see
if it gets better. What can be a priority list for this? Would you say that
Q8 is likeliest, then Q1. Isn't it more likely that the active components
is out of spec than the passive? I just did a quick in circuit check of the
transistors and diodes. But there were none of them that were really
upsettingly bad. Could be marginal though. Hard to tell in circuit.

Unfortunately the GE D44Q1 is not a very common part. Hopefully it can be
replaced with something similar. The switching frequency is not so high.
And it is not high voltage nor high current.

/Mattis

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Mattis Lind]

2016-08-19 9:13 GMT+02:00 :

> Noel said:
> > (seems to include a D/A, from what little I can find
> > on it online)
>
> I have that A/D unit ('A-D CONVERTER' as it says on the panel) from when I
> collected the Fox 2/10. It's complete as far as I can tell. I can take some
> photos of it, if any interest.
>

Here is a picture of our AF01 frontpanel: http://i.imgur.com/iyvZsr5.png.
The AA01 D/A converter has no frontpanel like the AF01.


>
> Also a belated thanks to yourself and others for the 11/15 vs 11/20
> differences,
> very interesting.
>
> Steve.
>
>

/Mattis

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Peter Coghlan]

[snip]



Device  Device   Error
  Name   Status   Count
MPA0:   Offline  0
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1

I swear that when I first installed VMS the DHV11 ports showed up in the 
show dev list on the MicroVax II.
The TQK50 controller (I have 2) were put into a MicroVax 4000 and that 
Vax saw each board, so I don't think the boards are bad.




It's not clear to me what issue you are reporting regarding the TQK50
controllers.  Are you saying that VMS is not seeing them because you don't
see any MUA devices listed?

PUA0 and PUB0 are your two disk controllers.  Some googling suggests that PTA0
is a tape controller.  (Google also suggests that one error at startup is to
be expected for PT/PU devices.)

Having PTA0 listed suggests that VMS is seeing the tape controller but not
seeing any actual tape drives attached to the controller.  Maybe the tape
drive or drives are not correctly attached to the controller or are not
powered?

(Don't worry about MPA0 - this is a virtual device expected to be absent
in VMS V5.5-2 and present in VMS V7.2.  It is not related to tape or serial
controllers.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[Mike Ross]

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
>
> On 8/17/16 2:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>
>> I also have an odd box... it's pdp-8/L in style but housed several
>> sets of boards for controlling multiple paper tape readers/punches
>> IIRC... can't recall the DEC designator.
>
> PR68, used in typesetting.

OK I still can't get at the box; it's apparently buried deep. So can't
confirm what the label calls it. But here it is and the panel on the
front:

http://corestore.org/Decbox.jpg

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: DEC Indicator Panels page

[steven]

Noel said:
> (seems to include a D/A, from what little I can find
> on it online)

I have that A/D unit ('A-D CONVERTER' as it says on the panel) from when I
collected the Fox 2/10. It's complete as far as I can tell. I can take some
photos of it, if any interest.

Also a belated thanks to yourself and others for the 11/15 vs 11/20 differences,
very interesting.

Steve.

Re: Beaten by VT100 PSU.

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Aug-17, at 1:48 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
> Normally I manage to repair the SMPSU that I dive into. But this time I
> must admit that I am defeated.
> 
> It is a VT100 PSU (H7831). I tested it with dummy loads and it worked fine.
> But when used in the terminal with the Basic Video board and monitor board
> it gives a jumpy picture. Both horizontally and vertically. First I thought
> that it was related to the monitor board but soon recognised that the +12 V
> had a most peculiar waveform on it:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/d0z0NQS.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/gQqmSN5.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/P0dt5y1.jpg
> 
> This waveform is only present on the +12V, not the +5V, not the -12V or
> -23V.
> 
> So I connected just the Basic video board and a variable dummy load instead
> of the monitor board. I used a Variac on the input. It turned out that
> there were no problems now with the +12V. Until I pulled out and reinserted
> the keyboard. Then it was there. If I lowered the input voltage it was
> impossible to provoke this problem and also if I increased the +12V load.
> Further testing also gave that putting a few amps extra load on the +5V
> also made it resistant to this type of failure mode.
> 
> The amplitude and frequency of this waveform is shifting by +12V loading
> and AC input voltage.
> 
> The VT100 SMPSU is a primary switcher regulating the +5V. Then the +12V is
> handled by a secondary switcher which is synchronised with the primary
> switcher. The other voltages have linear regulators.
> 
> It looks to me that something in the regulation circuitry is not behaving,
> thus oscillating. But what component has failed (or is out of spec)? I
> checked transistors. I checked the waveform from the 555 chip and ramp
> voltage input to the 555. But I cannot figure out what the problem is.
> 
> I checked the 560uF output capacitor but my LCR meter said it was in good
> shape. Around 700 uF and very low ESR.
> 
> I was thinking of breaking up the feedback loop and see what happens, using
> an external +12V as an input to the regulator rather than the generated
> +12V. But hasn't got there yet.
> 
> Anyone seen this type of behaviour? Tony, do you have some piece of good
> advice?


A line of thought for consideration, with the usual disclaimer: I've seen these 
(VT100) supplies before but I haven't had to repair one,
the following is based only on a cursory purview of the schematic.

Let's look at some of the design nature of the supply.

All the outputs extract their energy from the main switching transformer (T1 
here).
The drive for T1 (the primary driver) however, is controlled only by the +5 
regulation, that is, T1 is inside only the +5 regulation feedback loop.
This is typical of many multi-output computer switching supplies.

An increased load on the +12 output must extract more energy from T1, but the 
+12 output has no means to directly increase the primary drive into T1
as it doesn't have a control line into that regulation loop.
Instead, through the interaction of the magnetic fields in the T1 windings the 
additional extracted energy for +12 lowers what the +5 output can get out of T1,
so the +5 regulation loop kicks in and tells the primary drivers to increase 
the power into T1 till the +5 is happy again, the +12 now being happy too.

In consequence, there may be a minimum load requirements on the output of the 
major regulation loop (+5 here) or a relationship (ratio) between the output
load demands to allow the outputs to function properly.

The preceding accounts for why an increased load on the +5 output can affect 
the +12, and cause the problem to go away.

Let's hypothesize that something in the +12 switcher is 'weak', say the gain of 
the +12 switching transistor (Q8) has fallen below design requirements.
When the +5 is lightly loaded, for some given demand on the +12 output, Q8 
can't conduct enough energy into the +12 storage inductor (L1) to
maintain the +12 in the time it has to do so, because the low +5 demand has the 
T1 drive down to a narrow switching pulse.
(Note that the reason the +12 switcher is synchronised to the +5 switcher is so 
that Q8 'knows' when to extract energy from T1 to push into L1.)

As the load is increased on the +5 output, the +5 regulation widens the T1 
drive pulse to supply it and now Q8, though weak, has more time to pass 
sufficient
energy into L1 for the +12 output.

The 'ripple' you are seeing is not 'capacitive' ripple as would result from 
inadequate filter caps - it's the wrong waveshape (aside from the wrong 
frequency).
I haven't thought out a full explanation but I suspect it's an oscillation set 
up by the load demand and an (inadequate) corrective response attempt by the 
+12 regulation.

Note I'm not saying Q8 is bad, go replace it; I'm just trying to describe how 
these functional parts interact, to account for (some of) the behaviour you're 
seeing,
there are other parts of the +12 switcher that could produce the scenario, like 
limited base 

Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)

[Huw Davies]

> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shad  wrote:
> 
> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find, but a 
> complete copy
> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which disappeared 
> with all valuable data...
> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion?

I’m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I used to 
work with at La Trobe. I’ll see if he still has  the original copies.

Huw Davies   | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia| air, the sky would be painted green"