Re: Raised Floors

[Craig Ruff via cctalk]

> On May 22, 2019, at 11:00 AM, cctech-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:
> From: Grant Taylor 
> 
> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
> 
> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of 
> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that 
> contained the PDUs?

It was moderately open below the floor, there are columns that support the 
grid.  I looked, but I don't have a picture in the under floor area when I was 
up there years ago, and didn't see anything obvious on the NCAR or Wyoming web 
sites.  There is a video at https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4H7U5Weopw 
 that shows some of the support 
equipment briefly, but not the underfloor area.

Re: Raised Floors

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 5:46 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
It was moderately open below the floor, there are columns that 
support the grid.


The raised floor at work has posts (I guess you could call them columns) 
at the corner of every tile that run down to the floor.  This is why I'm 
asking if the posts / columns that you're talking about were in a 2'x2' 
grid or if that grid was supported by something else that had wider spacing.


I looked, but I don't have a picture in the under floor 
area when I was up there years ago, and didn't see anything 
obvious on the NCAR or Wyoming web sites.


ACK

There is a video at https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4H7U5Weopw that 
shows some of the support equipment briefly, but not the underfloor 
area.


That was … a different video.  I feel like it was more of a marketing 
slick / public relations type thing.  There was exceptionally little 
detail, and what I did see was massively watered down.  I feel like 
technical terms were purposefully taken out of the video.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

FTGH - VAX Datatrieve binders

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

These four binders are in Toronto, Canada.

* VAX DATATRIEVE - User's Guide
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Handbook
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Reference Manual
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Guide to Writing Reports, Guide to Using Graphics,
Guide to Programming and Customizing

But I don't see on bitsavers -- Can anyone else confirm? I have the
ability to ADF scan before recycling. Or can ship to anyone prepared to
pay cost.

--Toby

Re: M7264 Troubleshooting

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/22/2019 05:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > On the LSI-11/2, with the machine stopped, 'run' was off, and the
 > output on AF1/AH1 was always high (i.e. not asserted).
 > I don't have any guesses as to what the behaviour of yours is about.

Hah! Eureka! I had a brainwave, and decided to look at my machine with
the serial console board pulled out!

I then get the exact same behaviour on SRUN as you're seeing - a very brief
spike every so often (about every 25 usec, here).

Yes, this is most likely a bus timeout as the console 
firmware is polling the serial module, and that module is 
apparently not acknowledging the request.


Jon

Re: M7264 Troubleshooting

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> On the LSI-11/2, with the machine stopped, 'run' was off, and the
> output on AF1/AH1 was always high (i.e. not asserted).
> I don't have any guesses as to what the behaviour of yours is about.

Hah! Eureka! I had a brainwave, and decided to look at my machine with
the serial console board pulled out!

I then get the exact same behaviour on SRUN as you're seeing - a very brief
spike every so often (about every 25 usec, here).


So I'd be looking pretty hard at your DLV11-E; start by making sure it is
configured correctly.

Past that, you'll need prints; Manx claims there aren't any online, but there
are a set in the jumbo assemblage, ET-LSI-11 (MP00706); the DLV11-E prints are
on pp. 31-37.

All you have to do to get a nice 'scope loop is to power the machine on; the
CPU will dutifully try and read the RCSR, in a fairly tight loop.


Probably worth picking up a spare DLV11 of some type for fault localization
via board-swapping/etc; DLV11-J's can be found on eBait for not a large sum.

Noel

Re: apollo psa test point adaptor

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

It’s hard to find documentation for the ground test equipment apparently. The 
flyable hardware is very well documented, and Mike Stewart and co. are in the 
process of scanning it all at NARA. I can glean a few things from the markings 
on your picture. The PSA, or Power and Servo Assembly, had all the analog 
electronics for the Inertial Measurement Units and the star alignment optics, 
namely the scanning telescope and the sextant and the 3 pendulum accelerometers 
or PIPAs. It was a very large beast having maybe 100 modules, all the DC, 800Hz 
and 3200 Hz power supplies for the gyros and resolvers, the servo amplifiers 
for the 3 axes of the Inertial Measurement Unit, and the various temperature 
controllers. The test points give you access to internal key test points in the 
PSA to such things as the inertial measurement unit 3 gimbal error signals, the 
Scanning Telescope and Sextant optics trunnion and shaft error, corresponding 
servo test inputs (so you could rotate the gimbals or the optics), all the 
temperature monitors (there are many). 

 

There are two types of PSAs, one for the CM and one from the LM. Yours mentions 
SCT (Scanning Optical Telescope) and SXT (Sextant), and only the Command Module 
had a sextant, so we can pretty much tell this is a command module PSA test 
unit. There are also two very different revisions of the PSAs, Block I and 
Block II. Looking at the Block II PSA description (find it in the ND-1021043 
manual), it appeared to have two test connectors, J1 and J2, 61 pins each. But 
your tester breaks out 195 test points. The Block I seems to have more test 
pins, but I haven’t yet found the exact description. So my guess is that it is 
a Block I tester. 

 

Reading from the top: TB1 to TB5 – my guess is that this is a breakout of 5 
test connectors at the back of the PSA. A guess only, I don’t have the doc to 
confirm it. You put a voltmeter or a signal in these pins to measure your test 
point of put a signal into it. Pulse Probe, Direct Probe, Buffered Probe: I 
don’t know. The lowest left corner seems to deal with testing the servos, 3 at 
a time. If you are in the ISS (inertial sensing system) position, you’d 
probably move the 3 gimbal servos of the IMU. If you have it in the OPT 
position, you’d move the 3 axes of the optics which you can see on the other 
buttons, the SCT trunnion and the SXT trunnion and shaft. Apparently each of 
them has a slow or fast setting (that’s how I read 1:1 and 1:10 markings). The 
large commutator in the middle marked IRIG S.F. may be referring to the 
Integrating Inertial Reference Integrating Gyro Scale Factor monitoring. These 
are resistors networks that contained the calibration of the individual gyros. 
Problem is, there were 3 gyros and the knob has 5 positions, so that does not 
make a whole lot of sense to me.  

 

If it’s indeed a Block I tester, then I have a one of the Block I PSA trays it 
connects to. I was planning to used with my IRIG gyro, so the tester could 
potentially be useful to the project, if you were to lend it to us before you 
modify it. But probably not essential, as we can always break out the 
connectors ourselves (although it would be way less cool). And playing with the 
PSA is probably not going to happen for a while. It would be interesting to 
open it up and see if we could glean more insight from looking at the innards, 
and thoroughly document it before you modify it, so we can at least reproduce 
it.

 

Marc 

 

 

From: cctalk  on behalf of 
"cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Reply-To: Jon Elson , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" 

Date: Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 7:46 AM
To: Adrian Stoness , , 
"cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Subject: Re: apollo psa test point adaptor

 

On 05/18/2019 10:08 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern

manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio

interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or

another standard i can find?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482

 

There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range 

Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for 

telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a 

standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM 

carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog 

signals onto one FM carrier.

 

Apollo documents are probably VERY hard to come by these days.

 

Jon

 

Re: Apple ][+ Keyboard

[Brian Marstella via cctalk]

Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4

May have some helpful info.

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus I've
> had for years.
>
> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> Now, no keyboard  if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> ignored.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? (:
>
> Thanks,
>
> John (aka Mark)
>

Apple ][+ Keyboard

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus I've
had for years.

The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
Now, no keyboard  if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
ignored.

Anyone have any ideas? (:

Thanks,

John (aka Mark)

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 1:38 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
cooling needs.


Google has infrastructure all over the world.  Most of the locations 
require active cooling year round.  A quick Google search turns up the 
following maps:


Link - Map of all Google data center locations
 - https://royal.pingdom.com/map-of-all-google-data-center-locations/

There may be a few data centers in the northern hemisphere that are in a 
temperate ~ cold climate.  But I don't see any in the Arctic.


Also, Google wants the infrastructure as close to the end users as 
reasonably possible.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Raised Floors

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 9:08 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:

Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.


Both of the data centers / raised floors in my office have fire 
sprinklers.  I don't know if they lines are charged or dry.  (I'll inquire.)


The local fire department does a walk through spot check quarterly (if 
not more frequent b/c we give them lunch in our cafeteria) and annual 
full inspection of the fire detection and suppression system.


I also know for a fact that the DCs do have plumbing under the raised 
floor because I've heard talk about an automatic drain flush system that 
was historically used.  (I'm not sure it's used any more.)  I've also 
heard the maintenance crew talk about taking five gallon buckets of 
water into the DC to manually flush drains.


I've also heard of not infrequent stories of condensation from 
(overhead) air ducts dripping in the DC.


There's also the occasional leak during a heavy storm where non-trivial 
amounts of water come in through said duct work.


I've got a different horror story from a job 20 years ago where water 
would seep through the sidewalk onto an old IBM mainframe.  They kept 
plastic up most of the time and had drip trays with drain connections 
that sat on top of equipment.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 4:24 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> >> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> >> through the IT space in the data center.
> >
> > So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> > cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>
> So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
> coldplates directly?
>

That's an option.  I support 20-30kW/rack systems with using Coolcentric
(passive) rear door heat exchangers, which have a dewpoint-adjusted cooling
loop.  The air is generally managed using CRAC units / building air
handlers.


> I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
> took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
> direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
> what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
> translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
> the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
> algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
> to corrode the copper diaphragms.
>

New versions of that are made by companies such as Cool-IT, or HPE's SGI
systems.  The materials used have progressed quite a bit, mostly
eliminating the algae and corrosion problems, and people have mostly
settled on ~25-40C (77-104F) water for cooling, to avoid condensing
humidity.

Pat

Re: Raised Floors

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 May 2019, Chuck Guzis wrote:

So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
coldplates directly?


Sort of, see for example the Rittal LCP system.


I've had only a couple of instances where cooling water was used.  In


All current high-density rack systems need liquid cooling. I want to 
remind that a single rack may produce 10kW of heat or more.



the case of CDC mainframes, it was used to cool the condenser coils in
the refrigeration units (located in the mainframe).  I believe that Cray
initially used the same guy that CDC used to fabricate the cooling tubing.


That is how todays rack systems work.

Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:50 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> > Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> > through the IT space in the data center.
>
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>

I guess I should have added "etc" to my exception list?  My point was that
air handlers, CRACs, etc, should not have their plumbing running through
the data center since they should be outside in a mechanical room anyways.


> > Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> > condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that
> the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water
> temperature goes below the dew point.
>

For what we do, It's not, we don't do that, and our equipment suppliers
don't suggest it.  The air is humidity controlled before it gets near the
IT racks, by building air handlers and CRAC units.

Our process water loop inside the room watches the humidity and adjusts the
water temperature appropriately.  It'd be hard to for the dewpoint to
change rapidly enough to cause condensation vs how quickly systems can
increase the water temperature to compensate.

Modern systems using direct-to-system water cooling also tend to use "warm
water" cooling, since they don't need water below ~90F (~32C) to cool
effectively (some specify up to ~104F (~40C).  RIP the data center that has
a dewpoint that high, since the servers will probably be covered in rust
pretty quickly.

Pat

Re: Raised Floors

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:43 AM Jim Manley via cctalk 
wrote:

> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
> serious injury and death here.
>

Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.  And it's not
atypical from what I've heard.  They are all dry, pre-action systems, which
eliminate most of the danger of it accidentally dumping water.  It's
unlikely that with a dry pipe, pre-action system water will be dumped
somewhere that a person is standing without warning[0]. These days,
equipment is easy to replace (compared to classic systems) given a good DR
plan and a good insurance provider.

The NEC also requires[1] an EPO system to shut off all power sources
(including any UPS).  I'm pretty sure that any fire that required a hose to
be pulled off of a truck would first result in the power being shut off.

The experiences that I've had with non-water based fire suppression systems
is that they're way too twitchy, and likely to go off because (another[2])
HPE server in the datacenter released its magic smoke.  Standard sprinklers
only affect the area where the fire set them off, and don't have to douse
your whole multi-1000 sq ft data center.

0. Generally, multiple smoke/heat detectors have to be triggered before the
sprinkler system is charged with water.

1. The NEC isn't always followed when management decides there should be an
exception.  Insurance company guidelines are followed because not following
them has a tangible cost.  No one is going to be sued/go to prison for
this, at least here.

2. In our experience, HPE servers tend to (internally) catch fire and
release smoke at a rate of around 10-to-1 vs the Dell servers we've had.

Pat
(Standing back and looking at the mess he made of cctalk... Sorry, Jay.)

Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

is there any  ad  material  you  are  looking  for?
Ed#

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
space...@gmail.com writes:
Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production 
HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the 
preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to 
actually work on the simulation, though.
My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM 
bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, 
probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

well the  good  thing  is  Marc  with  turn over in  industrial  facilities  
and  updating  tech...    what  you  are  looking  for   should  come  
available at a  reasonable   price   yikes  I  am amazed  how  cheaply    
some of the normal  biological  scopes   go   for   now... we have been 
offloading  some  of  ours   from the  collection as  for  instance  with  a 
ziess standard  we  have  3  and   really  should  only  have  one as  an  
example   they are   a partial  price  of  what   they would  have  been  
10  years  ago. Let  me  know  how  you   do.  looking   for  Nomarsk   stuff. 
We   do  not  have  any  extra. We  may  have  something  extra in  Nikon   
with  Francion Yamatto   somewhere though,


Ed#
I  have  not  been  to may   auctions at  any of  the industrial  facilities or 
 auctioneers   in  years  to  look   for   hi  power   semiconductor   scopes   
but  that  is  where  they  used to  show  up.
In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:36:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
curiousma...@gmail.com writes:

Nomarski microscopy, Ed. Differential phase contrast microscopy. Makes very 
small height differences (partial wavelength) on mostly planar objects pop out, 
and creates amazing color effects as a biproduct. Pretty much a stalwart of any 
good cleanroom microscope. Every manufacturer offers it, usually a pretty 
expensive option as all your optics have to be stress-free. I dream to own one 
of these one day.

Marc

 

From: cctalk  on behalf of 
"cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Reply-To: "couryho...@aol.com" , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" 

Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM
To: "couryho...@aol.com" , , 
"cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Subject: Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad 
copy who else collecting?




should  say

 Francion Yamamotto   not  Yrancion Yamamotto








In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:07:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
couryho...@aol.com writes:

Since  we  have  nice  microscopes at  the museum  project  we  were  hired  to 
 photo  some IC  innards  years  back. This  ended  up  becoming  a minor 
obsession  for  a short  time  as  the  artwork under  various  illuminations  
is  fantastic. 








One of the things  that  seemed  to show the mots  difference in  detail 
between layers and highs  etc... was  differential  interference contrast  
(after  nomorski (sp?) ( this  was on our  Ziess Ultraphot  and  seems  to be  
a Zeiss  only    offering.0   on  the  Japanese  side of  things  Nikon  had   
Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)  method  which  seems   nice    but  I  preferred  the 
  Nomeriski.

Using  these   methods  you  may be  able  to extract  more usable  detail   
than  with traditional methods.   and  wow  the  color  photos  are   
frame-able!

But   kinda  what  I  wanted to mention  to is  depending  on  what  era   the 
chips  were  the  over  coatings    seemed  to  worsen  the view  the newer the 
chip  or  so  I  thought at the  time.










Such  great   fun  to  photo   the  little  ic innards!   even  a  standard   
illum.   scope  with the  vertical  episcopic  illumination  gives   some    
fun  photos  too,  especially  on the  earlier   chips.




Don't  know  if  any  of   this  will help on the  HP-01  roms  but  sure  was  
fun to talk about  again

ed sharpe archivist for  smecc
















In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
space...@gmail.com writes:

Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production 
HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the 
preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to 
actually work on the simulation, though.

My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM 
bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, 
probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

Re: Raised Floors

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2019-05-22 10:00 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:



On May 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk  
wrote:

ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 + skrev Wayne S via cctalk:

...
Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
remember the name.


It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
they become explosive in that case.

Nitrogen.  I remember seeing an installation with a whole row of compressed 
nitrogen bottles, looking a lot like a row of welding gas tanks.  It came with 
major warning signs about the danger to personnel when it goes off.

I think Halon is far less dangerous because it doesn't just work by displacing 
oxygen, though the details escape me.

paul

It was reputed that you could breath the halon making it easier to exit 
the room.  One of the big dangers from halon discharge in a room with a 
raised floor was the under floor nozzles would fling floor tiles up into 
the air and also raise a lot of dust.  A coworker that was in a room 
during a halon dump broke a leg falling into the hole left by a 
displaced tile while running for the door.  Most flooding systems gave a 
warning alarm before they actually discharged and had an override so 
that the automatic system could be stopped.  I was never in a room 
during a discharge but I have seen video of it.  I have also heard 
stories of it displacing enough floor tiles to affect the stability of 
the floor leading to a collapse of the floor supports and all the 
equipment ending up resting on top of cables and everything else under 
the floor.


Previously there where comments made about plumbing under the floor, in 
my experience it was pretty common for water cooled equipment and also 
for air conditioners that used chilled water for cooling.  The current 
water cooled systems I am familiar with have a coolant loop inside the 
rack that includes heat exchangers that  is separate from the building 
chilled water supply.  Inside the machines there are "water" blocks in 
direct contact with CPUs and memory and also sometimes the back door of 
the rack has a heat exchanger built into it.  Hot air exits out the back 
and is cooled by the back door the intent is to reduce the load on room 
air conditioning.


Paul.

Halon was banned because it was implicated as one of the chemicals that 
damaged the ozone layer.  I recall one customer that had a CO2 flooding 
system

Re: Raised Floors

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 + skrev Wayne S via cctalk:
>> ...
>> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
>> them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
>> remember the name.
>> 
> 
> It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
> they become explosive in that case.

Nitrogen.  I remember seeing an installation with a whole row of compressed 
nitrogen bottles, looking a lot like a row of welding gas tanks.  It came with 
major warning signs about the danger to personnel when it goes off.

I think Halon is far less dangerous because it doesn't just work by displacing 
oxygen, though the details escape me.

paul

Re: M7264 Troubleshooting

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Glen Slick

> According to the M7270 LSI-11/2 Microcomputer Module User's Guid[e],
> it uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for SCLK3 H, SWMIB18 H, SWMIB19 H, SWMIB20 H.

Oh, thanks! I wonder how I missed that, looking at the prints? (The
drawings have these nice dark arrowheads to indicate backplane
connections.) I just visually blew past it, I guess.

BH1 is also used there (for SWMIB21 H); and on the previous page, the STOP L
output is on AE1, and MTOE L (whatever that is) can be fed from AK1.

Not quite sure how a Q22 memory card causes the problem, electrically, since
those lines are inputs on the memory card, so it's an input<->input connection
(i.e. voltage sources in TTL), but obviously it does.

And I also don't see why Q18 cards are a problem; BDAL16 and 17 are
AC1 and AD1 respectively, which I don't see in the 'extra pins' list
for the LSI-11/2. Oh well, not too important to track it down.

Thanks again for catching my miss! Wow, it's been a lng time since
I worked with an LSI-11 - about 40 years! :-)

Noel

Re: Raised Floors

[Tor Arntsen via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 10:34, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk
 wrote:
> Halon should be completely and fully illegal in civilian installations.

In 1990 or 1991 I was inside a computer room when somebody
accidentally pushed an elbow into the fire emergency button.. and the
halon went off. Big room, many rows of tall racks. There were working
desks there too, so papers flew everywhere. I just ran for the
emergency exit door.
The folks in the roombs above later said they could feel the floor
coming up. This was a concrete building. All in all it was quite a
shocking experience.

Re: Raised Floors

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 + skrev Wayne S via cctalk:
> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's
> not intended. 
> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may
> find it's way into the DC.  
> 
> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain
> that statement?
> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the
> room and were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember
> the old IBM 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to
> operate so there was a lot of piped water going into the room. 
> 
> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in
> either case.
> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
> them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
> remember the name.
> 

It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
they become explosive in that case.

halon is also very much oxygen depriving ie asphyxiating.

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 05:17, Mark Linimon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> > I think Google and their YAWNs
>
> Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
> search itself is nothing but false positives.

FWIW, I had no clue either. I was hoping to work it out from context.
No joy so far.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Raised Floors

[Wayne S via cctalk]

PS.. Sorry about the top posting. I'm old and i forgot.


Wayne


> On May 22, 2019, at 1:45 AM, Wayne S  wrote:
> 
> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not 
> intended. 
> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's 
> way into the DC.  
> 
> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that 
> statement?
> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and 
> were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 3032 
> computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was a lot 
> of piped water going into the room. 
> 
> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either 
> case.
> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. It 
> was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
>> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
>> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
>> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
>> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
>> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
>> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
>> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
>> into account.
>> 
>> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
>> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
>> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
>> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
>> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
>> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
>> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
>> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
>> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
>> used on-site.
>> 
>> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
>> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
>> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
>> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
>> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
>> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
>> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
>> serious injury and death here.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
 On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
 The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>>> 
>>> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
>>> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
>>> contained the PDUs?
>>> 
>>> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
>>> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
>>> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Grant. . . .
>>> unix || die
>>> 

Re: Raised Floors

[Wayne S via cctalk]

All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not 
intended. 
When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's 
way into the DC.  

Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that 
statement?
The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and 
were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 3032 
computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was a lot 
of piped water going into the room. 

The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either case.
Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. It 
was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.



> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
> into account.
> 
> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
> used on-site.
> 
> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
> serious injury and death here.
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>> 
>> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
>> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
>> contained the PDUs?
>> 
>> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
>> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
>> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Grant. . . .
>> unix || die
>> 

Re: Raised Floors

[Wayne S via cctalk]

Have to rephrase what i said about the Liebert units being water cooled. They 
used water for humidity control not for cooling. They used regular refrigerant 
for that.
 

Wayne


> On May 22, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Wayne S  wrote:
> 
> PS.. Sorry about the top posting. I'm old and i forgot.
> 
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
>> On May 22, 2019, at 1:45 AM, Wayne S  wrote:
>> 
>> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not 
>> intended. 
>> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's 
>> way into the DC.  
>> 
>> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that 
>> statement?
>> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and 
>> were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 
>> 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was 
>> a lot of piped water going into the room. 
>> 
>> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either 
>> case.
>> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. 
>> It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
>>> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
>>> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
>>> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
>>> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
>>> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
>>> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
>>> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
>>> into account.
>>> 
>>> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
>>> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
>>> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
>>> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
>>> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
>>> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
>>> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
>>> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
>>> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
>>> used on-site.
>>> 
>>> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
>>> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
>>> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
>>> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
>>> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
>>> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
>>> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
>>> serious injury and death here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
>>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
 
 Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
 grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
 contained the PDUs?
 
 I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
 than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
 accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
 
 
 
 --
 Grant. . . .
 unix || die
 

Re: Raised Floors

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

ons 2019-05-22 klockan 01:42 -0600 skrev Jim Manley via cctalk:
> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop
> of
> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone
> into
> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen
> displacement,
> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the
> local
> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also
> taken
> into account.

Halon should be completely and fully illegal in civilian installations.
No excuses. Deionized water is just as effective.
(Halon is still permitted in EU in some military applications and
aircraft but the clock is ticking on the usage of halon in civil
aircraft.)

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
>> through the IT space in the data center.
> 
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?

So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
coldplates directly?

I've had only a couple of instances where cooling water was used.  In
the case of CDC mainframes, it was used to cool the condenser coils in
the refrigeration units (located in the mainframe).  I believe that Cray
initially used the same guy that CDC used to fabricate the cooling tubing.

I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
to corrode the copper diaphragms.

To the best of my knowledge, this was a test setup--it certainly had an
impressive instrumentation unit with multiple CRTs and neon
thermometer-type displays.

The most extreme example I ever ran into of cooling was the ETA-10
supercomputer--cooled with liquid nitrogen, supplied by a cryostat.  I
don't recall what cooled the latter.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:

Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
through the IT space in the data center.


So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your 
cooling water system if not using plumbing?



Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
condensate drains inside the DC.


That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that 
the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water 
temperature goes below the dew point.


Christian

Re: Raised Floors

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
into account.

The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
used on-site.

Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
serious injury and death here.


On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> > The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>
> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
> contained the PDUs?
>
> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

You definitely need a raised floor for a data center.
I think Google and their YAWNs will disagree with you on an actual /need/ for 
a raised floor in a data center.


I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
cooling needs.


Christian